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ChiefsFan
17-06-08, 04:07 AM
The teams for the game have both recently been announced.

New Zealand

1. Neemia Tialata
2. Andrew Hore
3. Greg Somerville
4. Brad Thorn
5. Ali Willliams
6. Adam Thomson
7. Richie McCaw ©
8. Rodney So’oialo
9. Andy Ellis
10. Dan Carter
11. Rudi Wulf
12. Ma’a Nonu
13. Richard Kahui
14. Sitiveni Sivivatu
15. Leon MacDonald

Reserves: Keven Mealamu, Tony Woodcock, Anthony Boric, Sione Lauaki, Jimmy Cowan, Stephen Donald, Mils Muliaina


England

15 - Mathew Tait
14 - Topsy Ojo
13 - Mike Tindall
12 - Jamie Noon
11 - Tom Varndell
10 - Toby Flood
9 - Danny Care
8 - Luke Narraway
7 - Tom Rees
6 - James Haskell
5 - Steve Borthwick ©
4 - Tom Palmer
3 - Matt Stevens
2 - Lee Mears
1 - Tim Payne

Reserves: David Paice, Jason Hobson, Ben Kay, Joe Worsley, Pete Richards, Olly Barkley, David Strettle.

Looks like Henry is trying to give all his players a run before the Tri Nations begins. Most of the chanes to the English team were predictable. I am suprised to see Wigglesworth out, I though he played alright. I imagine the ABs will win this by 25 points or so.

Ripper
17-06-08, 05:58 AM
How the f*** is Rudi Wulf an All Black? Good to see Kauhi get a run, shame Lauaki hasn't been given the flick, although hopefully a strong run by Thompson and Kainos solid perfromances in the first 2 tests will mean he gets the flick for the Tri Nations.

Gay-Guy
17-06-08, 06:07 AM
Gee here we go again...rotation rotation rotation!



When are we gonna have our best team on so we can start thrashing everybody?!

InsaneAsylum
17-06-08, 06:10 AM
i hope donald gets some more time on the grass. i know you blokes don't think much of him, but the truth is that if carter gets injured then who assumes the position... whether it's macdonald or donald who knows but neither have (lots of) experience in that position at that level.

henry should start donald, and if **** hits the fan take him off and put carter on.

Maccaweeny
17-06-08, 06:16 AM
Is Rudi Wulf in the 7's team, or am I thinking of someone else?

ChiefsFan
17-06-08, 06:23 AM
As much as I like Donald, if carter gets injured I'd imagine Henry would almost certainly bring in Evans and have him start, just because he's a proven talent at International Level.

I think it's unfair to call Rotation. Neither Wulf or Kahui have played yet so they to some time before the 'real' tests begin to play at test level. Some of the other players also need a start before the T Nations. Rotation won't come in to the picture for another few weeks as until everyone has played you can't really judge how everyone will go. Lots of players have been retained ie. Tialata, Hore, Sivivatu. It's not like he change the whole team.

candybum
17-06-08, 08:59 AM
It'll be good to see Wulf against some speedsters ay. Congrats to him for coming back after his neck injury.

Am eagerly waiting to see what Kahui can offer after 2 pretty good center performances by Smith

SaintsFan_Webby
17-06-08, 09:26 AM
Glad to see Care, Flood and Tait coming in amongst the backs. Slightly concerned that we seem to have created a brick wall in the centre positions, but at least there won't be a whole lot going through that channel this time around.

Quite annoyed to see Mears retain his place, especially seeing as Hartley hasn't even been given a run in the 22. The lad is the future England hooker, the sooner we get him in the side the better. He'd have provided some much needed needle up front, as well some great hands and creative touches. Also think Kennedy should have been given a chance to show what he can do.

SH*Rugby
17-06-08, 10:33 AM
I don't think you'll see Nick Evans in an All Black jersey again, he's gone and it's a real shame.
The team for this weekend is alot weaker than last week, Smith is the number one centre in the country in my opinion and Nonu has gone along way to making number 12 his own. I think we'll win well again though, our tries last week were well constructed and England had no answer, both of theirs were opportunistic (sp?) due to some sloppy play by the AB's, fair enough. It won't happen again this week.
Looking forward to it, got my tickets, just hoping it's a clear night with no wind.

gingergenius
17-06-08, 11:44 AM
OK WHAT!!!!

I'm delighted that Tait's in the team.

But Noon AND Tindall in the centres??!!! :cryy: :cryy: :cryy: :cryy: :cryy: :cryy: :cryy: :cryy: :cryy:

Well at least that's probably the quickest back 3 England have ever fielded.

Basically, that's a team with a very solid midfield defence. And a very dubious outside defence. Wulf and Sivivatu will be looking forward to it I think...

Dmx#1
17-06-08, 01:01 PM
Well Im glad Rodney is back to his original position.

Ho3n3r
17-06-08, 03:21 PM
I thk this tri nations will be the best since its inception in 96. All 3 teams are strong... But I do think you All Blacks will have the edge again... I mean, Compare Chavanga/Sivivatu, James/Carter, Mtawarira/Somerville... All we got going 4 us is our guts...

I Bleed Black
17-06-08, 04:14 PM
The one thing I find amazing out of last three years is that not one English Back has been able to truely pin down a starting spot or become a specialised player in the international team.

I realise this is pretty generalised, but do you see where Im coming from?? Is this down to players performances, or they way they are managed?

I mean we are the product of so much rotation and trial, and yet almost each of our players is a specialist in one number (but can cover another) and we have a pretty good idea of our best team, although Henry does change the team (understandably) to ensure we have a good squad.

I also understand that injuries have played a large part, But I would have thought the Tindalls, Noons, Taits, Barkleys and Floods, would have either nailed a spot or would be gone. How many years do they need??

Bullitt
17-06-08, 04:47 PM
Well, I can have a lay in on Saturday. What a ****ty England lineup.

danny
17-06-08, 05:43 PM
Why drop Barkley, he didnt play that well last week but he is by far our best inside centre. Borthwick and Mears should have gone but what ever team is picked it is gonna be a loss. I think we should have a four or five year plan in place and pick a team that will grow and develop together. Obviously someone completely out of form will have to be dropped but we need more consistency in selection. Players need to be given a chance of a run of games, but they must be the right players.

Bullitt
17-06-08, 05:49 PM
Wasn't it a "4-5 year plan" they set about 4-5 years ago?

fcukernaut
17-06-08, 05:59 PM
To the English supporters: what would be your ideal backline, regardless of injuries and non-selections to the team?

danny
17-06-08, 06:09 PM
Wasn't it a "4-5 year plan" they set about 4-5 years ago?
[/b]
Well it certainly wasnt carried out. Everthing to do with the England set up has been a shambles within that time.



To the English supporters: what would be your ideal backline, regardless of injuries and non-selections to the team?
[/b]
Mine would be :
9 Care
10 Cipriani
11 Simpson- Daniel
12 Barkley
13 Tindall
14 Sackey
15 Tait(select him and give him a good run of games)

Bullitt
17-06-08, 06:10 PM
Tait, Barkley, Sackey and Tindall? ROFL... Are you really Rob Andrew?

9. Care
10. Cipriani
11. Simpson-Daniel
12. Geherety / Flood / Allen
13. Hipkiss
14. Ashton
15. Anyone but Balshaw

danny
17-06-08, 06:18 PM
Tait, Barkley, Sackey and Tindall? ROFL... Are you really Rob Andrew?

9. Care
10. Cipriani
11. Simpson-Daniel
12. Geherety / Flood / Allen
13. Hipkiss
14. Ashton
15. Anyone but Balshaw
[/b]
Ha Ha! Gereghty is a good call, Flood and Allen arnt quite up to it yet physically. Hipkiss plays with his head up his ass most of the time. Dont know much about Ashton, may do next year. Plus you have to name a fullback. Perhaps these last two posts have summed up Englands problems.

I Bleed Black
17-06-08, 06:49 PM
I just think it is a shame that an England back must find it so difficult gain a level of confidence in a position.

Everyone has a bad game, every AB has, yet you need to have a certain amount of faith in the players and they in turn will grow into the position.

If England can settle their knee jerk reaction to dropping players and gain the players trust in a structure that the players know will grow them into their chosen role, England will again be a force to be reckoned with.

danny
17-06-08, 09:00 PM
I just think it is a shame that an England back must find it so difficult gain a level of confidence in a position.

Everyone has a bad game, every AB has, yet you need to have a certain amount of faith in the players and they in turn will grow into the position.

If England can settle their knee jerk reaction to dropping players and gain the players trust in a structure that the players know will grow them into their chosen role, England will again be a force to be reckoned with.
[/b]
Too true, good post. Also our players dont get enough time to prepare for internationals due to the demands of their clubs. This has now been ironed out and from July we will be on a level playing field with the rest of the world in terms of preparation. This I feel is crucial.

darwin_23
17-06-08, 10:06 PM
Is Rudi Wulf in the 7's team, or am I thinking of someone else? [/b]

Wulf has played for the sevens team -was back in 2005 I think... David Smith is the blues winger currently playing in the sevens team that you may be thinking of...

I rate Wulf very highly - has a very high work-rate, is strong in defense, and takes his chances... very similar player to Doug Howlett (though he hasn't reached the level of Howlett yet....). He's also rated by the AB's coaches as the best player in New Zealand under the high ball. He's not the sort of player who can score tries out of nothing like Sivivatu or Rococoko, but I think he will be very successful at the end of this AB's backline.

MunsterMan
21-06-08, 08:24 AM
New Zealand 20 - 0 England at half time. Tries from Kahui and Carter. McCaw of injured, looked like he was in pain.

jme
21-06-08, 09:13 AM
how can we get rob andrew out of england set up? he is to invovled and we end up playing his bland style of rugby

Incredible Schalk
21-06-08, 09:36 AM
England always play a "bland" style of rugby, atleast they got a couple of tries. Good same to watch, that 3rd try was an absoloute beauty which could only be scored by New Zealand. Care was very good, he offers much,much more in attack than Wiggelsworth, Tait played well. Kahui and Nonu were awesome in the centre, those who continously slate Nonu should be cutting themself a large slice of humble pie after his performances this year.

gingergenius
21-06-08, 09:47 AM
well, new zealand are better rugby players. Simple as.

We competed with them physically, and were equal in terms of possession, territory, and at the breakdown.

We created 4 golden chances to score tries, we scored 2.

New Zealand created 5 and scored 4.

Barkley missed kicks, Carter missed none.

The NZ backplay was outstanding, Kahui, Nonu and Carter all play for different teams but they had the cohesion of a club midfield. If England want to compete at this level we need firstly to pick centres who can play at this speed and then practice as much as the Kiwis do in order to get the set piece moves as slick. Whenever we had it, we were so static and petered out.

The scoreline was thouroughly deserved, simply because NZ were so much more clinical. Like Strettle last week, Varndell should have scored in the corner. I watched Sivivatu against Ireland slide in from 5 metres so the Irish cover could do nothing to stop him; England wings need to learn that on fast SH pitches you have to slide in.

-----------------------------

Players who come from the tour with reputations enhanced:

Haskell - outstanding
Rees - ditto
Care - very bright spark
Tait - why does he not get picked more often?
Ojo - did nothing wrong, needs to work on his kicking

Players who proved they're not up to the level:

Mears - out physicaled
Hodgson - we knew this before the tour...
Noon - defence is his strong point; too bad the Kiwis can cope with his in-ya-face defending easily

Players who were unlucky:

Barkley - forced to play 10 with very little practice there
Flood - great performance today before getting injured

Players who are past it and should be got rid of:

Kay
Worsley
Tindall

ChiefsFan
21-06-08, 09:51 AM
I think it was a very good performance from NZ.

It showed that Kahui can play Internationally, and well.

McCaw and Williams could be huge losses. Our next best 7 is Tanerau Latimer, a guy who (no offense to him) only since this year has had regular selection at Super 14 level... I suppose they could always grab Messam though. Hopefully the injuries heal over the next two weeks.

Incredible Schalk
21-06-08, 10:25 AM
Lauakis a joke :angry:

nam97
21-06-08, 10:29 AM
Lauakis a joke :angry:
[/b]

To be honest I thought Lauaki did very well coming on early for McCaw. He got involved for once and used his power both in the tackle and at the back of the scrum. Yes, he still needs to lift his intensity before I can fully appreciate him but he somewhat redeemed himself this week after last weeks performance.

Latimer the 2nd best 7 in the country? No way. If someone's going to be called up if McCaw is badly injured it will be Chris Masoe.

ChiefsFan
21-06-08, 10:32 AM
Ah, forgot about Masoe, just seemed like he wasn't playing without him being in the ABs. Scratch that last idea then. Latimer would be third, but only because Masoe can cover 6 and 8 as well.

jawmalawm24
21-06-08, 10:46 AM
Awesome game by the All Blacks blew the English off the field. I was pretty impressed with no.6 Adam Thompson he was awesome in the rucks always stealing the ball and popping up to his feet and must of made a few tackles too.

Incredible Schalk
21-06-08, 11:00 AM
<div class='quotemain'>
Lauakis a joke :angry:
[/b]

To be honest I thought Lauaki did very well coming on early for McCaw. He got involved for once and used his power both in the tackle and at the back of the scrum. Yes, he still needs to lift his intensity before I can fully appreciate him but he somewhat redeemed himself this week after last weeks performance.

Latimer the 2nd best 7 in the country? No way. If someone&#39;s going to be called up if McCaw is badly injured it will be Chris Masoe.
[/b][/quote]

I was a bit strong there but he was cack over the series, last week especially, forward pass and countless dropped balls. This week he was better, scored and try and carried reasonably but again he dropped the balll a couple of times. Masoe anyday for me.



Also apparently Adam Thomson is the second quickest over 25 metres in the All Black squad, second to only Sivivatu. I dont know much about Wulf except that he has Ojo on his arse, is he quite a slow wing?

jawmalawm24
21-06-08, 11:05 AM
I&#39;m a Hurricanes fan but even I think Masoe didn&#39;t do enough this season to warrant selection for the All Blacks. In a way I&#39;m kinda glad they didn&#39;t pick him because it gives the new up and coming talents time to shine.

I really hope McCaw and Ali Williams are all good for the Tri Nations because we need them especially since there&#39;s no other specialist no.7 to cover Richie.

shtove
21-06-08, 11:20 AM
Only saw the last 15 mins - a bit scrappy - but some of the AB handling was magic. Couldn&#39;t tell much from what I saw of Kahui, but with Nonu not fewking up that looks a really good centre combination.

ABs to repeat the last four years?

Tri-N pencilled in to my diary.


<div class='quotemain'>
12. Geherety / Flood / Allen

[/b]
Ha Ha! Gereghty is a good call.[/b][/quote]
I remember Bill Beaumont years ago trying to pronounce Simon Geoghegan&#39;s name during commentary and giving up half way through: "Gee-o-hay-o ...agh, whatever!"

Seriously, this proves that Geraghty should not be playing for England. How will he feel when all his team mates keep getting his name wrong? Traumatic. It could ruin him. Give up now and send him back to Ireland.

nik
21-06-08, 12:06 PM
I would put Daniel Braid into the number 7 jersey if Mccaw does not recover, but the problem is that he got injured last week and was ruled out of the NZ Maori team for PNC. It&#39;s a shame Braid cannot make most this opportunity, he is a class act, playing in the shadows of Mccaw all this time.

BTW Adam Thompson and Richard Kahui played really well. I think Kahui will eventually get the number 13 jersey, probably at the end of the year tour, but for the 3Ns the selectors will stick with Conrad Smith for some assurance.

nam97
21-06-08, 12:26 PM
Did Thompson really play that well? The guys I was watching it with were all in agreement he had a shocker, dropping balls, throwing dodgy passes etc... Then in the post match talks and everyone said he played great, we were like wtf?

Now everyone on here is saying he played great. We mustn&#39;t have watched the game all that closely then. Kahui was a beast though, Tindall will indeed be having nightmares.

Now who to start at 13? Smith or Kahui? I&#39;m still backing the Nonu/Smith combination.

gingergenius
21-06-08, 01:25 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
Lauakis a joke :angry:
[/b]

To be honest I thought Lauaki did very well coming on early for McCaw. He got involved for once and used his power both in the tackle and at the back of the scrum. Yes, he still needs to lift his intensity before I can fully appreciate him but he somewhat redeemed himself this week after last weeks performance.

Latimer the 2nd best 7 in the country? No way. If someone&#39;s going to be called up if McCaw is badly injured it will be Chris Masoe.
[/b][/quote]

I was a bit strong there but he was cack over the series, last week especially, forward pass and countless dropped balls. This week he was better, scored and try and carried reasonably but again he dropped the balll a couple of times. Masoe anyday for me.



Also apparently Adam Thomson is the second quickest over 25 metres in the All Black squad, second to only Sivivatu. I dont know much about Wulf except that he has Ojo on his arse, is he quite a slow wing?
[/b][/quote]

From an England perspective, Thompson was a nuisance. It seems that either all the players NZ pick are awesome; or, more likely, the ones who come in get an armchair ride - it&#39;s easy when there&#39;s quick ball and the likes of Carter & McCaw are playing well.

How did Wulf have Ojo? Wulf hardly touched the ball...

Incredible Schalk
21-06-08, 01:54 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
Lauakis a joke :angry:
[/b]

To be honest I thought Lauaki did very well coming on early for McCaw. He got involved for once and used his power both in the tackle and at the back of the scrum. Yes, he still needs to lift his intensity before I can fully appreciate him but he somewhat redeemed himself this week after last weeks performance.

Latimer the 2nd best 7 in the country? No way. If someone&#39;s going to be called up if McCaw is badly injured it will be Chris Masoe.
[/b][/quote]

I was a bit strong there but he was cack over the series, last week especially, forward pass and countless dropped balls. This week he was better, scored and try and carried reasonably but again he dropped the balll a couple of times. Masoe anyday for me.



Also apparently Adam Thomson is the second quickest over 25 metres in the All Black squad, second to only Sivivatu. I dont know much about Wulf except that he has Ojo on his arse, is he quite a slow wing?
[/b][/quote]

From an England perspective, Thompson was a nuisance. It seems that either all the players NZ pick are awesome; or, more likely, the ones who come in get an armchair ride - it&#39;s easy when there&#39;s quick ball and the likes of Carter & McCaw are playing well.

How did Wulf have Ojo? Wulf hardly touched the ball...
[/b][/quote]


Because he sat Ojo on his arse when he ran at him.

gingergenius
21-06-08, 02:31 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
Lauakis a joke :angry:
[/b]

To be honest I thought Lauaki did very well coming on early for McCaw. He got involved for once and used his power both in the tackle and at the back of the scrum. Yes, he still needs to lift his intensity before I can fully appreciate him but he somewhat redeemed himself this week after last weeks performance.

Latimer the 2nd best 7 in the country? No way. If someone&#39;s going to be called up if McCaw is badly injured it will be Chris Masoe.
[/b][/quote]

I was a bit strong there but he was cack over the series, last week especially, forward pass and countless dropped balls. This week he was better, scored and try and carried reasonably but again he dropped the balll a couple of times. Masoe anyday for me.



Also apparently Adam Thomson is the second quickest over 25 metres in the All Black squad, second to only Sivivatu. I dont know much about Wulf except that he has Ojo on his arse, is he quite a slow wing?
[/b][/quote]

From an England perspective, Thompson was a nuisance. It seems that either all the players NZ pick are awesome; or, more likely, the ones who come in get an armchair ride - it&#39;s easy when there&#39;s quick ball and the likes of Carter & McCaw are playing well.

How did Wulf have Ojo? Wulf hardly touched the ball...
[/b][/quote]


Because he sat Ojo on his arse when he ran at him.
[/b][/quote]

oh yeah fair enough. thought TO was good otherwise

Incredible Schalk
21-06-08, 04:33 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
Lauakis a joke :angry:
[/b]

To be honest I thought Lauaki did very well coming on early for McCaw. He got involved for once and used his power both in the tackle and at the back of the scrum. Yes, he still needs to lift his intensity before I can fully appreciate him but he somewhat redeemed himself this week after last weeks performance.

Latimer the 2nd best 7 in the country? No way. If someone&#39;s going to be called up if McCaw is badly injured it will be Chris Masoe.
[/b][/quote]

I was a bit strong there but he was cack over the series, last week especially, forward pass and countless dropped balls. This week he was better, scored and try and carried reasonably but again he dropped the balll a couple of times. Masoe anyday for me.



Also apparently Adam Thomson is the second quickest over 25 metres in the All Black squad, second to only Sivivatu. I dont know much about Wulf except that he has Ojo on his arse, is he quite a slow wing?
[/b][/quote]

From an England perspective, Thompson was a nuisance. It seems that either all the players NZ pick are awesome; or, more likely, the ones who come in get an armchair ride - it&#39;s easy when there&#39;s quick ball and the likes of Carter & McCaw are playing well.

How did Wulf have Ojo? Wulf hardly touched the ball...
[/b][/quote]


Because he sat Ojo on his arse when he ran at him.
[/b][/quote]

oh yeah fair enough. thought TO was good otherwise
[/b][/quote]


He barely touched the ball, he also was in no man&#39;s land when Lauaki scored, i thought he was poor to be honest.

woosaah
21-06-08, 04:47 PM
Ok, i have been hearing all week how goo dthe back three of england are. But when they pass the ball to flood, or the other guy, they either kicked it or passed it out to another forward for a run. I didnt see a baclking move the whole game. The only time the centres got the ball was in open play or when they were in the rucks, they pretty much seamed to be extra forwards that they didnt get the ball passed to.

so frustrating as you want to see a good game but one tema doesnt use everythign they have looking forward to more of a competition in the tri nations

fcukernaut
21-06-08, 04:55 PM
Did Thompson really play that well? The guys I was watching it with were all in agreement he had a shocker, dropping balls, throwing dodgy passes etc... Then in the post match talks and everyone said he played great, we were like wtf?

Now everyone on here is saying he played great. We mustn&#39;t have watched the game all that closely then. Kahui was a beast though, Tindall will indeed be having nightmares.

Now who to start at 13? Smith or Kahui? I&#39;m still backing the Nonu/Smith combination. [/b]

Thompson was pressing a little when he had the ball in hand, but his work rate at the breakdown and tackle area was outstanding. I think he made something like 10 tackles through 50 minutes and i&#39;m not sure what his full time tally was but I&#39;m guessing somewhere in the 15-18 mark. I think he also directly made 2 turnovers from just straight poaching and then probably another 2 or 3 that resulted in scrums or penalties. He was also out in support a lot.

Prestwick
21-06-08, 06:24 PM
My god, when will people learn that NOON & TINDALL DO NOT WORK WELL TOGETHER!

I mean, come on, I was feeling deja vu from 2004/5 all over again. Whats worse, it was almost as if our stellar rugby journo machine had suddenly suffered collective amnesia roughly four years after demanding Robinson&#39;s head for insisting on selecting Noon & Tindall at center.

"Oh well, at least we&#39;ll be secure defensively" ...my god.


I just think it is a shame that an England back must find it so difficult gain a level of confidence in a position.

Everyone has a bad game, every AB has, yet you need to have a certain amount of faith in the players and they in turn will grow into the position.

If England can settle their knee jerk reaction to dropping players and gain the players trust in a structure that the players know will grow them into their chosen role, England will again be a force to be reckoned with.

[/b]

But! We must not get carried away, and IBB has a point. We need to see how we can adapt either Noon or Tindall into a role. I think re-uniting Anthony Allen with Jamie Noon would be great. Bringing the capable mind of Allen into the attack would release the pressure off of Noon and leave him to do what he does best: pwning n00bs with thumping tackles.

In the end a fascinating series. It definitely shows how far Martin Johnson has to go to match what is still the most successful All Black outfit in rugby history...more or less..am I right?

KZNSharksFan
22-06-08, 02:10 AM
My god, the AB&#39;s were hitting good form in that game, if they continue to gain in confidence and establish some solid partnerships in the mid field and back three, the tri nations could become a washout!

sanzar
22-06-08, 05:04 AM
Maybe, maybe not... England, despite all the hype about their forwards etc, really didn&#39;t provide much of a test in the end and I don&#39;t think we&#39;ll really know how good the ABs are until the TN starts proper.

Personally I was a little surprised by last nights performance... this was apparently the best squad England had available to them and by all accounts they were set to give the ABs a real solid testing, but in the end they were nothing short of pathetic. The ABs were class again last night, but they were still far from perfect and 2 of their tries were so easy you&#39;d have thought NZ was playing Italy instead of England... What happened their I have to ask? Wasn&#39;t England supposedly really disappointed in their defense last week and determined to not leak easy points this time? Cause if that was the plan then WTF, because NZ ended up scoring one more try than they did last week despite mixing their combinations and losing their 2 most influential forwards before half time!
Don&#39;t get me wrong, I love watching the ABs flog England, but with all the talk that goes on up their about the lack luster quality of the S14, they really need to put up or shut up when they send these sides down.
As for the ABs, I was disturbed by how well they all gelled with still such little game time, but from an Aussie TN perspective was encouraged by the troubles they had at line outs and also happy to see that Andy Ellis appears to be possibly the worst of the TN half backs going around (might have been a one off, but seriously, I thought he had a shocker...).

Prestwick
22-06-08, 05:28 AM
Maybe, maybe not... England, despite all the hype about their forwards etc, really didn&#39;t provide much of a test in the end and I don&#39;t think we&#39;ll really know how good the ABs are until the TN starts proper.

Personally I was a little surprised by last nights performance... this was apparently the best squad England had available to them and by all accounts they were set to give the ABs a real solid testing, but in the end they were nothing short of pathetic. The ABs were class again last night, but they were still far from perfect and 2 of their tries were so easy you&#39;d have thought NZ was playing Italy instead of England... What happened their I have to ask? Wasn&#39;t England supposedly really disappointed in their defense last week and determined to not leak easy points this time? Cause if that was the plan then WTF, because NZ ended up scoring one more try than they did last week despite mixing their combinations and losing their 2 most influential forwards before half time!

Don&#39;t get me wrong, I love watching the ABs flog England, but with all the talk that goes on up their about the lack luster quality of the S14, they really need to put up or shut up when they send these sides down.
As for the ABs, I was disturbed by how well they all gelled with still such little game time, but from an Aussie TN perspective was encouraged by the troubles they had at line outs and also happy to see that Andy Ellis appears to be possibly the worst of the TN half backs going around (might have been a one off, but seriously, I thought he had a shocker...). [/b]

England do tend to baffle me sometimes. Look at the guys who they brought with them, Nick Kennedy case in point.

Goddamn Nick Kennedy. Imperious form ALL SEASON, disrupted lineouts from London to to the South of France and then all the goddamn way back again. Even Toulouse with all their (*cough* imported *hack*) talent couldn&#39;t beat him. The guy at lock is simply brilliant.

So could somebody explain to me..WHAT WAS THE POINT IN BRINGING HIM IF WE&#39;RE NOT GOING TO PLAY HIM?!?!?!

Another player. Tom Croft. Red hot prospect, bags of power, speed and verve. Played like a demon all year. So what was the point in him coming along if he was just going to sit in the stands picking his nose?!

Don&#39;t get me wrong, Borthwick and Kay? Good players..OLD PLAYERS. Sanny, you hit the nail on the head, improbabbly stupid selection breeds complacency. Complacency, the idea that you can trot out the same old words, can say the same old stuff to keep your place, breeds awful performances. Awful performances translate into scores like 44 - 12.

What an utter waste of time this tour was, for both England and New Zealand.

sanzar
22-06-08, 05:41 AM
I dunno... maybe it&#39;s just a fear factor in the England management. Maybe they think they&#39;ll be embarrassed if they DON&#39;T play the conservative card and keep from trying out too many up and comers? Either way it&#39;s not the way to play NZ. If you have a well oiled efficient machine like the 2002-03 England side, then sure, play the percentages, but anything short of that requires something more dynamic and inventive if you want to challenge the ABs.

Prestwick
22-06-08, 06:24 AM
Mate, I wouldn&#39;t want to tour ANYWHERE with that style of management. What kind of signal this sends out to the likes of Allen, Kennedy and Croft that they&#39;re going to play second fiddle to the likes of Ben Kay and Mike Tindall for the next 18 months I don&#39;t know, but it ain&#39;t going to be positive.

ChiefsFan
22-06-08, 06:52 AM
Yeah, Ellis isn&#39;t great, but that&#39;s why Leonard is our starting halfback. Can&#39;t wait to see him once he gets back from injury, he&#39;ll be like a pocket rocket on crack, except in a good way. He&#39;s our number one halfback.

nik
22-06-08, 07:11 AM
Well Richie McCaw is out for 6 weeks, so I&#39;m pretty sure the ABs will be looking for a specialist replacement. As for Ali Williams it&#39;s not as bad as McCaw&#39;s injury.

Also Brendon Leonard will require surgery after an on going knee problem so he will be out for 6 weeks as well.

Incredible Schalk
22-06-08, 07:45 AM
Cowan should be the half back, he&#39;s got the most experience and as soon as he came on yesterday he really took it to the line well and got a try. Ellis has been lucky to get 3 tests, i rate Cowan and Leonard higher

nam97
22-06-08, 09:02 AM
Well Richie McCaw is out for 6 weeks, so I&#39;m pretty sure the ABs will be looking for a specialist replacement. As for Ali Williams it&#39;s not as bad as McCaw&#39;s injury.

Also Brendon Leonard will require surgery after an on going knee problem so he will be out for 6 weeks as well.
[/b]

Yeah, just great eh? And Rokocoko is out &#39;till the end of the year dammit.

ozzy
22-06-08, 09:15 AM
It&#39;s always hard to judge ABs against NH teams. 3Ns is always more challenging for the ABs, not just because the teams are man for man superior outfits compared to what the North can produce, but they also know each other and play against one another constantly. This has almost the same equalising effect as heavy rain and is why the tri nation matches are always so close. It&#39;s also in these pressure cooker situations that a player&#39;s worth at test level can be determined.
Sure Kahui and Thompson looked sublime against the english, but when the pressures really on how will they perform? For me Kahui looks like he has the goods, but Thompson seems to lack the physicality to compete at test level, but time will tell. The other big concerns are Andrew Ellis and Jimmy Cowan. Ellis&#39; passing was quite poor at times against England and he was not under the kind of pressure that the SAF can apply to a halfback at rucks. As for Cowan I have never been convinced that he is test material.
The ABs need a specialist open side for the 3Ns and with Braid injured it might be worth looking at Scott Waldrom, he may not have the size, but he definitely has the speed and the work rate and is tireless in defence. Masoe, may still be carrying a grudge against the ABs following his dropping from the All Blacks. Messam is too big an idiot despite plenty of natural ability and Latimer often has games where he is anonymous. It will be interesting to see who gets the nod.

Gay-Guy
22-06-08, 09:50 AM
Totally agree with you ozzy...especially regarding Kahui.

Kahui may be raw and untried against SA and AUS but there are hints that he may be the new 13 as he was very safe defensively with his spot tackling. This is the one thing that Umaga and Bunce had that other AB pretender 13&#39;s have not had. Conrad does not spot players....nor does Laulala or even Muliaina. AB 13&#39;s are usually looked upon as having FIRST the ability to spot tackle a movement dead.

Kahui may lack out and out pace but perhaps in time he will develop it. Bunce was faster in his 30&#39;s than he was in his early career with Auckland.

candybum
22-06-08, 10:31 AM
England do tend to baffle me sometimes. Look at the guys who they brought with them, Nick Kennedy case in point.

Goddamn Nick Kennedy. Imperious form ALL SEASON, disrupted lineouts from London to to the South of France and then all the goddamn way back again. Even Toulouse with all their (*cough* imported *hack*) talent couldn&#39;t beat him. The guy at lock is simply brilliant.

So could somebody explain to me..WHAT WAS THE POINT IN BRINGING HIM IF WE&#39;RE NOT GOING TO PLAY HIM?!?!?!
. [/b]

Because Rob Andrew is a ****? lol i watch him in his interviews and he&#39;s BS.. just BS all the time lol

Steve Booth
22-06-08, 11:09 AM
It&#39;s always hard to judge ABs against NH teams. 3Ns is always more challenging for the ABs, not just because the teams are man for man superior outfits compared to what the North can produce, but they also know each other and play against one another constantly. This has almost the same equalising effect as heavy rain and is why the tri nation matches are always so close. It&#39;s also in these pressure cooker situations that a player&#39;s worth at test level can be determined.
[/b]

I don&#39;t think the AB&#39;s will gain too much from this game, apart from a little bit of confidence. The ABs played really well in the first halves of both games. The second halves were very sloppy. The points difference should have been far greater.

England didn&#39;t test the AB&#39;s at all. England didn&#39;t play any defined "style" of rugby and their game plan was ludicrous. What&#39;s the point of kicking big up and unders to one of the best best back three&#39;s in world rugby. Why not kick for touch instead and look to to win the ball from your opponents under-performing lineouts.

I look forward to the Tri-Nations.

gingergenius
22-06-08, 11:46 AM
Maybe, maybe not... England, despite all the hype about their forwards etc, really didn&#39;t provide much of a test in the end and I don&#39;t think we&#39;ll really know how good the ABs are until the TN starts proper.

Personally I was a little surprised by last nights performance... this was apparently the best squad England had available to them and by all accounts they were set to give the ABs a real solid testing, but in the end they were nothing short of pathetic. The ABs were class again last night, but they were still far from perfect and 2 of their tries were so easy you&#39;d have thought NZ was playing Italy instead of England... What happened their I have to ask? Wasn&#39;t England supposedly really disappointed in their defense last week and determined to not leak easy points this time? Cause if that was the plan then WTF, because NZ ended up scoring one more try than they did last week despite mixing their combinations and losing their 2 most influential forwards before half time!
Don&#39;t get me wrong, I love watching the ABs flog England, but with all the talk that goes on up their about the lack luster quality of the S14, they really need to put up or shut up when they send these sides down.
As for the ABs, I was disturbed by how well they all gelled with still such little game time, but from an Aussie TN perspective was encouraged by the troubles they had at line outs and also happy to see that Andy Ellis appears to be possibly the worst of the TN half backs going around (might have been a one off, but seriously, I thought he had a shocker...).
[/b]

My list of excuses/ hopelessly optimistic thoughts/ what I&#39;d love England to do:

1. We&#39;re a young team, and the only way for young players is up
2. Our pack is potentially an excellent scrummaging, lineout, breakdown and ball-carrying unit.
3. We&#39;re missing Ellis and Cipriani, and Care looks amazing for the future.
4. We need to pick either Flood, Wilkinson, Barkley, or Allen at 12, find someone exciting (ie. Waldouck or Tait) at 13 and stick with them.
5. Our squad will have more time together, with hopefully a more patient selection policy, and some home/ 6N fixtures to gain confidence over the next year.
6. We&#39;ll beat NZ 100-0 in the RWC final 2011.

If we even dare to lose silly 6N games to rubbish teams like we&#39;ve done recently I&#39;ll cry.

Prestwick
22-06-08, 06:28 PM
Ok, i have been hearing all week how goo dthe back three of england are. But when they pass the ball to flood, or the other guy, they either kicked it or passed it out to another forward for a run. I didnt see a baclking move the whole game. The only time the centres got the ball was in open play or when they were in the rucks, they pretty much seamed to be extra forwards that they didnt get the ball passed to.

so frustrating as you want to see a good game but one team doesn&#39;t use everything they have looking forward to more of a competition in the tri nations [/b]

This is a bit of a toughie to explain. Simply put, Noon & Tindall just don&#39;t work as a center partnership. They were tried several times in 2004 and 2005 but they are simply two crash ball players. Neither are or ever will be the &#39;definition of technician&#39; that Will Greenwood was, both sadly will always be known for big tackles and running straight forward before going straight to ground.

Thus, when you pair them up, any hope of any kind of dynamic center partnership goes out of the window. I think Toby Flood knew this and opted to pass straight to the wings or take the ball himself.

It is frustrating I know. There are allot more talented centers out there in England who could and should have gone out there. Allen, Geraghty for example are superb prospects.

This coupled with the abject failure of Rob Andrew to even select either Kennedy or Croft for either of the games in New Zealand creates a bitter atmosphere in English Rugby.

EDIT: Did anyone think Luke Narraway did well at eight though? For all the snide remarks about him not being first choice player at Gloucester, I thought he was pretty good. I&#39;d still want to give Jordan Crane a go to see how well he works with Rees & Haskell.

Gavin
22-06-08, 08:16 PM
EDIT: Did anyone think Luke Narraway did well at eight though? For all the snide remarks about him not being first choice player at Gloucester, I thought he was pretty good. I&#39;d still want to give Jordan Crane a go to see how well he works with Rees & Haskell.[/b]

I thought Narraway played very well. Every time the ball was kicked short or high by New Zealand, Narraway seemed to position him perfectly to catch the ball. Also he seemed to constantly make ground when he got go forward ball.

Prestwick
22-06-08, 08:55 PM
He was incredibly aggressive in the first test. At times when it seemed as though the All Blacks were expecting England to kick it down field or opt for a scrum, they suddenly had 108kg of rural Worcestershire slamming into them with the ball. Definitely caught them on the hop a fair few times. Really admired the guys determination.

gingergenius
22-06-08, 10:03 PM
OK, I&#39;ve come to the conclusion that New Zealand are just permanently awesome at rugby. Highly rated England U20s side, without doubt the 2nd best in the world, gets hammered in a world cup final by the NZ U20s.

This taken into account, I&#39;ve decided that New Zealanders are probably right when they analyse players. After all, an England fan like myself thinks Adam Thompson was excellent; Kiwis are criticising him. Standards are evidently higher.

Anyway, to all the Kiwis, please name, if any, the England players you respect. Just so any English club bias is taken out of it...

woosaah
22-06-08, 10:18 PM
tbh i cant name many of the english players, but i can tell you that for about the first 20 mins the forwards were quite good. They were hitting the rucks hard contesting the ball, but after that they would drop off, it was like they couldnt keep up with all the hitting. They contested the ball really well in little pieces of the game, but i found that the AB&#39;s could do it more often for longer.

Thats just what i saw, and no-one really stood out at all of me.

fcukernaut
22-06-08, 10:41 PM
OK, I&#39;ve come to the conclusion that New Zealand are just permanently awesome at rugby. Highly rated England U20s side, without doubt the 2nd best in the world, gets hammered in a world cup final by the NZ U20s.

This taken into account, I&#39;ve decided that New Zealanders are probably right when they analyse players. After all, an England fan like myself thinks Adam Thompson was excellent; Kiwis are criticising him. Standards are evidently higher.

Anyway, to all the Kiwis, please name, if any, the England players you respect. Just so any English club bias is taken out of it... [/b]

I think it&#39;s safe to say you have two thirds of your backrow set up for the next 2 world cups. Haskell was emmense in both test matches as was Rees. However, I was a little disappointed that Rees really didn&#39;t take advantage of having the best openside in the world off the pitch for 50+ minutes. To me it seemed like he upped his level of play in the first match when he was playing against the best. I think that Care is probably for halfback for the forseeable future. He was shaky in bits but I thought played with aggression and his delivery and ball movement was fantastic. Too bad he was effectively passing to no one. Narraway certainly had a pretty good game in the second test, but I&#39;m not too sure if he has to potential to be a top flight international number 8.

darwin_23
22-06-08, 10:51 PM
Did Thompson really play that well? The guys I was watching it with were all in agreement he had a shocker, dropping balls, throwing dodgy passes etc... Then in the post match talks and everyone said he played great, we were like wtf?
[/b]

As fcukernaut said Thomson was outstanding at the break-down, being directly responsible for 4-5 turnovers. His ball running and handling was decidedly average though - this was a surprise for me though as his ball running and passing skills are actually the best part of the game for Otago...

With McCaw out for six-weeks I would imagine the starting loose forward trio will be Thomson and So&#39;oialo on the flanks with Kaino at 8. Not sure who they will bring in for McCaw - Braid would have been in if he hadn&#39;t got himself injured, its probably out of Scott Waldrom, Latimer, Masoe, and Read. Personally I favor brining in Masoe given his experience at this level..






<div class='quotemain'> OK, I&#39;ve come to the conclusion that New Zealand are just permanently awesome at rugby. Highly rated England U20s side, without doubt the 2nd best in the world, gets hammered in a world cup final by the NZ U20s.

This taken into account, I&#39;ve decided that New Zealanders are probably right when they analyse players. After all, an England fan like myself thinks Adam Thompson was excellent; Kiwis are criticising him. Standards are evidently higher.

Anyway, to all the Kiwis, please name, if any, the England players you respect. Just so any English club bias is taken out of it... [/b]

I think it&#39;s safe to say you have two thirds of your backrow set up for the next 2 world cups. Haskell was emmense in both test matches as was Rees. However, I was a little disappointed that Rees really didn&#39;t take advantage of having the best openside in the world off the pitch for 50+ minutes. To me it seemed like he upped his level of play in the first match when he was playing against the best. I think that Care is probably for halfback for the forseeable future. He was shaky in bits but I thought played with aggression and his delivery and ball movement was fantastic. Too bad he was effectively passing to no one. Narraway certainly had a pretty good game in the second test, but I&#39;m not too sure if he has to potential to be a top flight international number 8.
[/b][/quote]

Agree entirely with fcukernaut with regard to Rees, Haskell, and Care - I actually wrote something very similar but he beat me too it... I think Haskell&#39;s future may be at 8 (has he played much 8??) with Croft at 6. I also thought that Tait was impressive at fullback...

shtove
22-06-08, 11:05 PM
The ABs are stirring up another witches&#39; brew for the next few years. Amazing with so many established players absent. Their play is already brilliant in patches.

But how do NZers compare Ireland and England over the last three ABs tests?

Does the weather for the Ireland test make comparison useless? Or do Ireland play a better strategy? Have better players?

Prestwick
23-06-08, 01:30 AM
I think it&#39;s safe to say you have two thirds of your backrow set up for the next 2 world cups. Haskell was emmense in both test matches as was Rees. However, I was a little disappointed that Rees really didn&#39;t take advantage of having the best openside in the world off the pitch for 50+ minutes. To me it seemed like he upped his level of play in the first match when he was playing against the best. I think that Care is probably for halfback for the forseeable future. He was shaky in bits but I thought played with aggression and his delivery and ball movement was fantastic. Too bad he was effectively passing to no one. Narraway certainly had a pretty good game in the second test, but I&#39;m not too sure if he has to potential to be a top flight international number 8.
[/b]

Agree entirely with fcukernaut with regard to Rees, Haskell, and Care - I actually wrote something very similar but he beat me too it... I think Haskell&#39;s future may be at 8 (has he played much 8??) with Croft at 6. I also thought that Tait was impressive at fullback... [/b]

Thats a very fair assessment. Rees & Haskell are still very much raw to the international arena, hence the interestingly variable work-rate in places for Rees. Haskell usually doesn&#39;t really give a crap and gives it his all whatever the weather. Haskell I think does play at Eight a fair bit, especially when Dallaglio started to come off after 60 minutes or so in the last season.

Narraway is an interesting conundrum. We&#39;ve still yet to test out Jordan Crane who has turned in some pretty decent performances for Leicester. Maybe you&#39;ll see him in the Autumn.

Not bringing Croft at least onto the subs bench was catastrophic. He can play at flanker and lock and is especially good at lock. He&#39;s been in form since last year when he outran the NZ Maori and I would have thought him to be a good choice for at least one of the tests. Ditto Dylan Hartley at Hooker and Nick Kennedy, also at lock.

I&#39;m incredibly frustrated that Andrews didn&#39;t bother picking such in form talent for the New Zealand plunge pool of doom. Despite the fact that nobody in the squad was over 30, Rob Andrews&#39; squad selection felt so retro, it almost felt like deja vu...maybe it was because Rob Andrew started pulling the following face:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/226/516845021_dd121a02d3.jpg

I could have sworn the guy was coaching Edinburgh/Scotland&#39;s forwards now... (http://www.therugbyforum.com/index.php?showtopic=21429&st=0&p=224613&#entry224613)

Charles
23-06-08, 09:23 AM
Rob Andrew is such a prick anyway. I hated him with a passion when he was playing in the English team; sooooooo boring to watch, but still winning the games against us...

candybum
23-06-08, 10:49 AM
OK, I&#39;ve come to the conclusion that New Zealand are just permanently awesome at rugby. Highly rated England U20s side, without doubt the 2nd best in the world, gets hammered in a world cup final by the NZ U20s.

This taken into account, I&#39;ve decided that New Zealanders are probably right when they analyse players. After all, an England fan like myself thinks Adam Thompson was excellent; Kiwis are criticising him. Standards are evidently higher.

Anyway, to all the Kiwis, please name, if any, the England players you respect. Just so any English club bias is taken out of it... [/b]

I thought Borthwick (sp?) was good aye :)

cyRil
23-06-08, 03:52 PM
Regarding the NZ openside problem, is it at times like this that you wish you had Marty Holah?? :wall: :P

smartcooky
24-06-08, 02:38 AM
I would just like to ask one question of England supporters?

How the bloody hell is Mike Tindall still able to bluff his way into an England shirt. He&#39;s slower to turn than a Winnebago, he lacks gas, can&#39;t pass the ball top save his arse, he misses tackles and he gives away stupid penalties, not to mention getting himself carded twice in two matches for similar offences.

smartcooky
24-06-08, 02:48 AM
OK, I&#39;ve come to the conclusion that New Zealand are just permanently awesome at rugby. Highly rated England U20s side, without doubt the 2nd best in the world, gets hammered in a world cup final by the NZ U20s.

This taken into account, I&#39;ve decided that New Zealanders are probably right when they analyse players. After all, an England fan like myself thinks Adam Thompson was excellent; Kiwis are criticising him. Standards are evidently higher.

Anyway, to all the Kiwis, please name, if any, the England players you respect. Just so any English club bias is taken out of it... [/b]

Of the England players who came on this tour, I respect Andy Sheridan the most. He has been very unlucky with injuries whenever he has come to NZ, and I think we (kiwis) have never seen the best of him.

Narraway was pretty good and always seemed to be near the play (like a good No.8 should)

Other good players were Care and Strettle.

The rest would probably struggle to make S14 starting XVs

What a pity Cipriani wasn&#39;t able to come to NZ. Without him in your side, Dan Carter had a a free pass.

Gay-Guy
24-06-08, 06:39 AM
Ok gingergenius.....

I liked Tait in the second test :)

Tindall is well and truly a substandard player for a back.



Thompson as a number 6 from a NZ perspective is not good enough defensively at the moment which is why we don&#39;t rate him as defence is the first thing an AB should have.

ChiefsFan
24-06-08, 09:28 AM
Ok gingergenius.....
Thompson as a number 6 from a NZ perspective is not good enough defensively at the moment which is why we don&#39;t rate him as defence is the first thing an AB should have.
[/b]



That&#39;s also why Kahui is rated fairly highly (although that&#39;s not the only reason).

Gay-Guy
24-06-08, 09:32 AM
<div class='quotemain'> Ok gingergenius.....
Thompson as a number 6 from a NZ perspective is not good enough defensively at the moment which is why we don&#39;t rate him as defence is the first thing an AB should have.
[/b]



That&#39;s also why Kahui is rated fairly highly (although that&#39;s not the only reason).

[/b][/quote]

Yeah for sure!!!! He really does seem quite good defensively for a young guy....

Prestwick
24-06-08, 11:48 AM
Now the news you&#39;ve all been waiting for...

The four accused England players (allegedly) are:

- Topsy Ojo
- Mike Brown
- Danny Care
- David Strettle.

Now, this is from The Sun, so you might want to wait until an established news wire like Reuters or a Rugby Correspondent for one of the better newspapers of the world like the Daily Telegraph say something.

Sir Speedy
24-06-08, 11:54 AM
3 Harlequins players and a LI player. Erm. Have the accused been cleared of all charges yet, since this investigation looks to be going nowhere?

Prestwick
24-06-08, 12:03 PM
No, but preparations for trial by the New Zealand press seem to be well in hand!

Klarkash-ton
06-07-08, 11:19 AM
the first twenty minutes of the first test were a good eye-opener for NZ.

after that England failed to deliver much, though they did disrupt the All Blacks for periods, for example most of the second half of the first test.

the second test could have been a lot different if England hadn&#39;t missed two golden opportunities in the first half, even if they did come against the run of play (great work by MacDonald to keep out Varndell, and sheer bad luck after a great individual effort by Tait).

I thought England were very competitive in the breakdown, throught Rees and Haskell. But that was it. At least they tried to send a full team down this year. Unlike the French. How could the French schedule a tour for before the end of their domestic competition???

Prestwick
06-07-08, 11:23 AM
Because they&#39;re the French. Believe it or not, they don&#39;t really give a crap what anyone in the SH or even in the rest of the NH says about their season structure. If they want to continue playing league games throughout June, they&#39;ll damn well do so.

It kind of puts into perspective the difference between perceived influence on the global game and actual influence.