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SecondRow04
01-07-08, 11:25 AM
England Senior Elite Player Squad
Forwards

Steve Borthwick Saracens

George Chuter Leicester Tigers

Jordan Crane *Leicester Tigers

Tom Croft Leicester Tigers

Dylan Hartley*Northampton Saints

James Haskell London Wasps

Nick Kennedy *London Irish

Lee Mears Bath Rugby

Lewis Moody Leicester Tigers

Luke Narraway Gloucester Rugby

Tom Palmer London Wasps

Tim Payne London Wasps

Tom Rees London Wasps

Simon Shaw London Wasps

Andrew Sheridan Sale Sharks

Matt Stevens Bath Rugby

Phil Vickery London Wasps



Backs

Olly Barkley Gloucester Rugby

Danny Care Harlequins

Harry Ellis Leicester Tigers

Toby Flood Leicester Tigers

Riki Flutey *London Wasps

Shane Geraghty London Irish

Dan Hipkiss Leicester Tigers

Josh Lewsey London Wasps

Jamie Noon Newcastle Falcons

Pete Richards London Irish

Paul Sackey London Wasps

James Simpson-Daniel Gloucester Rugby

Mathew Tait Sale Sharks

Tom Varndell Leicester Tigers

Jonny Wilkinson Newcastle Falcons

Saxons Squad

Forwards

Steffon Armitage London Irish

Richard Blaze Leicester Tigers

Louis Deacon Leicester Tigers

Nick Easter Harlequins

Jack Forster Gloucester Rugby

Tom Guest Harlequins

Jason Hobson Bristol Rugby

Chris Jones Sale Sharks

Ben Kay Leicester Tigers

Michael Lipman Bath Rugby

David Paice London Irish

George Skivington *London Wasps

Andy Titterrell Gloucester Rugby

Joe Ward *London Wasps

David Wilson *Newcastle Falcons

Nick Wood *Gloucester Rugby

Joe Worsley London Wasps



Backs

Nick Abendanon Bath Rugby

Anthony Allen Gloucester Rugby

Matt Banahan Bath Rugby

Mike Brown Harlequins

Danny Cipriani London Wasps

Ben Foden Northampton Saints

Andy Goode Leicester Tigers

Paul Hodgson London Irish

Ryan Lamb Gloucester Rugby

Ugo Monye Harlequins

Topsy Ojo London Irish

David Strettle Harlequins

Mike Tindall Gloucester Rugby

Dominic Waldouck *London Wasps

Richard Wigglesworth Sale Sharks





some good picks, shame Ojo got demoted thought he played pretty well against NZ, Charlie Hodgson gone from the set up completley. Mike Tindal Demoted as well. Riki Flutey is a surprise but hes fairly good and if he is able to play for England then all the best. i would have liked Lesley Vainikolo in either sqaud so he can develop better as a player. Johnny Wilkinson is the only specialist fly half in the squad..





Let the Martin Johnson Era Begin! :)

MunsterMan
01-07-08, 11:30 AM
Varndell better than Strettle and Ojo?

Bullitt
01-07-08, 11:32 AM
England elite squad:
Forwards:
Tim Payne (Wasps), Mite says: Yay!
Andrew Sheridan (Sale), Mite says: To be expected. Lets see some form.
Matt Stevens (Bath), Mite says: Yay!
Phil Vickery (Wasps), Mite says: Booooooooo! Stupid, wasteful selection.
George Chuter (Leicester), Mite says: Back-up needed I suppose
Dylan Hartley (Northampton), Mite says: Yay! About time!
Lee Mears (Bath), Mite says: Boooooooo! Selected by the Bath Mafia.
Steve Borthwick (Saracens), Mite says: A fair selection on form
Nick Kennedy (London Irish), Mite says: Yay, let's see him get some game time
Tom Palmer (Wasps), Mite says: Will fight his way into the XXII
Simon Shaw (Wasps), Mite says: Long in the tooth now but will do the job
Tom Croft (Leicester), Mite says: Yay! Give him game time
James Haskell (Wasps), Mite says: When good, he's worth the spot
Lewis Moody (Leicester), Mite says: Oh god, not this s*it again…
Tom Rees (Wasps), Mite says: Yay! The best 7 in the country needs a shirt
Jordan Crane (Leicester), Mite says: Yay! An out-and-out 8 with quality!
Luke Narraway (Gloucester). Mite says: Pitty his talent doesn't match his commitment.

Backs:
Josh Lewsey (Wasps), Mite says: One step forwards, 2 steps back.
Mathew Tait (Sale), Mite says: Oh goody, Rob Andrews lovechild…
Paul Sackey (Wasps), Mite says: He'll do for the bench
James Simpson-Daniel (Gloucester), Mite says: Yay! About time!
Tom Varndell (Leicester), Mite says: Oh FFS
Dan Hipkiss (Leicester), Mite says: Yay! A good 13 at last!
Jamie Noon (Newcastle), Mite says: Oh FFS
Olly Barkley (Gloucester), Mite says: Won't play much…
Toby Flood (Leicester), Mite says: Yay! A 10!
Riki Flutey (Wasps), Mite says: Yay! A 12!
Shane Geraghty (London Irish), Mite says: Yay! A player!
Jonny Wilkinson (Newcastle), Mite says: Oh f*** right off Tabloid selections…
Danny Care (Harlequins), Mite says: Yay! The bestest 9 we have!
Harry Ellis (Leicester), Mite says: Playing for Leicester apparently warrents selection on its own.
Pete Richards (London Irish), Mite says: K…

Overall... Too many of Johnsons Leicester mates combined with the RFU old boys network means the wrong players will get starts and nothing will change. Pitty.

candybum
01-07-08, 11:45 AM
Riki Flutey?? lol good on the guy.

Hey thought everyone said Wilkinson is gone burgers, whats up with that guy anyways? maybe Johnson was put him in there because he won them the world cup? lol

MunsterMan
01-07-08, 11:48 AM
So England fans, what is your best XV from that squad? Anybody else think picking Varndell over Ojo and Strettle is baffling? As is picking Andy Goode and Tindall for Saxons.

Bullitt
01-07-08, 11:48 AM
Well, he's [Wilkinson] done nothing to warrant selection.

From that;

1. Sheridan
2. Hartley
3. Stevens
4. Kennedy
5. Palmer
6. Croft
7. Rees
8. Crane
9. Care
10. Flood (Cipriani when fit)
11. Simpson-Daniel
12. Flutey/Geherety
13. Hipkiss
14. Sackey
15. Lewsey

nam97
01-07-08, 12:23 PM
Riki Flutey?? lol good on the guy.
[/b]

Yeah I reckon, that kinda leaped out at me. Haven't heard or seen his name for about 2 years.

Sir Speedy
01-07-08, 12:56 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
Riki Flutey?? lol good on the guy.
[/b]

Yeah I reckon, that kinda leaped out at me. Haven&#39;t heard or seen his name for about 2 years.
[/b][/quote]
Really? Us who discuss NH rugby have had to suffer the English jabbering on about his future all year. <_<

Macsen
01-07-08, 12:59 PM
The start of a new error!

Gavin
01-07-08, 01:04 PM
<div align="left">Not sure why Peter Richards has been included in the Elite Squad, same with Wilkinson and Chuter. Would have rather seen Ryan Lamb in the squad instead of Jonny with Cipriani in brackets.</div>

Fa'atau82
01-07-08, 06:22 PM
Good squad, some players who have reps to earn or re-kindle though.

You have to keep some vets while in transition.

Good on JSD, it&#39;s about time!

Cymro
01-07-08, 06:31 PM
Some interesting players been selected and I have to admit selecting Wilko is not the greatest thing but who else do they have to fill the 10 void?

Prestwick
01-07-08, 06:52 PM
I think the reason why Ojo and Strettle were dropped down a team was because they broke Jonno&#39;s cardinal rule from the Sir Clive era: be the story on the back pages, not the front. Strettle may have been an energiser bunny in bed, but that doesn&#39;t do well for his chances under Martin Johnson and I&#39;m sure he&#39;s made that perfectly clear in private.

In a word: brave. We&#39;re finally starting to discard the chaff from the real sidewinder missiles. Sure, he has picked a fair few from Leicester but look at who he&#39;s picked: Crane, Croft, Ellis. Flood & Moody. Ellis I couldn&#39;t care less about other than we don&#39;t want to end up with another crisis at 9 again so I support having three scrum halves.

Whats really brave? The fact that he&#39;s chosen Johnny Wilkinson as the only specialist ten without any basis performance wise at all. Thats going to come back to bite him on the arse.

Crane, Croft and Flood merit their inclusion, the first two on sheer talent and form alone. Moody as well has learnt to be incredibly aggressive without giving away the needless penalties or get binned every game like Grewcock. In any case, in this brave new world of rewarding cheats with free-kicks instead of punishing them with three points or tries however, Moody&#39;s discipline problems seem remarkably old hat anyway.

Finally however, with the phalanx of Geraghty, Hipkiss and Flutey we have some centers with get up and go, va va voom, ka-pow, zing and other batman-esque sound effects. At the very least have the intelligence to throw missed passes to leave out Noon and pick out the likes of JSD anyway!

Like I said, I like this squad of 32 and Jonno has said he is not afraid to promote from the Saxons squad in the event of injury if he feels that the replacements in the elite squad aren&#39;t up for it at that moment in time. Competition is the key and this fosters it.

I&#39;ll post an XV later.

SecondRow04
01-07-08, 07:48 PM
My 22 Would be..

1.Sheridan
2. Hartley
3. Stevens
4. Shaw
5. Kennedy
6. Haskell
7. Rees
8. Crane
9. Care
10. Flood
11. Simpson Daniel
12. Flutey
13. Hipkiss
14. Lewsey
15. Tait

16. Mears
17. Vickery
18. Palmer/Borthwick/Croft
19. Croft/Moody
20. Sackey
21. Geraghty
22. Noon/ Barkley


i understand that varndell was picked because of strettle and ojo&#39;s behavoir but i would much rather have Banahan or Vainikolo as cover. I think England need a powerful winger in the squad.

Prestwick
01-07-08, 08:49 PM
Right, my XV:

1. Sheridan
2. Hartley
3. Stevens
4. Shaw
5. Kennedy
6. Haskell
7. Rees
8. Crane
9. Care
10. Geraghty
11. James Simpson-Daniel
12. Flutey
13. Hipkiss
14. Sackey
15. Tait

Tah-dah. Winnars!

peppers07
01-07-08, 09:05 PM
Wilkinson is past it and shouldny shouldnt have been been picked I think lamb or Geraghty would have been better until Cipriani is fit again. I havnt seen a lot of the Guiness premiership this season only about five matchs but from what ive seen of Ben Foden he should be in the senior sqaud. Is he bad at defence or something?

errlloyd
01-07-08, 09:27 PM
I think its fair to say Epic Fail on that coach.

Prestwick
01-07-08, 09:30 PM
Wow! That probably ranks as least useful comment of the month so far! Congratulations!

Are you going to elaborate on that utterly wonderful statement or are you just going to sit there and continue to stew over the one-dimensioned likes of Jamie Noon pwning Ireland earlier this year?

Sir Speedy
01-07-08, 09:34 PM
Wilkinson is past it and shouldny shouldnt have been been picked I think lamb or Geraghty would have been better until Cipriani is fit again. I havnt seen a lot of the Guiness premiership this season only about five matchs but from what ive seen of Ben Foden he should be in the senior sqaud. Is he bad at defence or something?
[/b]
Nope, it&#39;s just he can be suicidal at times. While he does many magnificent things, he does some downright dreadful things aswell - Wasps interception try against Sale in Adams Park this year; we could have had a vital losing bp if he didn&#39;t do that. (Then again, we could have had bonus points many-a-time this year.) <_<

Prestwick
01-07-08, 09:38 PM
The problem with Wilko is that he needs a strong willed pair of guys at center to take the pressure off of him. If there are others doing the thinking for him, he is very good when left to his own devices. However, if all the pressure is on him to do something and direct the team, he just self-destructs. I think the Six Nations this year was a perfect illustration of that....

...especially with that crazy &#39;pass&#39; to Cipriani in the Wales game..ugh...I can&#39;t unsee what I saw during those crazy, crazy 40 minutes...

Sir Speedy
01-07-08, 09:44 PM
The problem with Wilko is that he needs a strong willed pair of guys at center to take the pressure off of him. If there are others doing the thinking for him, he is very good when left to his own devices. However, if all the pressure is on him to do something and direct the team, he just self-destructs. I think the Six Nations this year was a perfect illustration of that....

...especially with that crazy &#39;pass&#39; to Cipriani in the Wales game..ugh...I can&#39;t unsee what I saw during those crazy, crazy 40 minutes...
[/b]
Yeh, because England lost it, not Wales won it. :D
It&#39;s interesting that Flutey has been picked, because while many think he should start at 12, I can see MJ putting Wilko at 12 and Flood at 10. Or vice-versa. <_< It&#39;s really ironic for you guys that as soon as you find a fly-half who seems certain to overtake Wilko at 10 (despite him not deserving the shirt anyway), the dude (Cippers) breaks his ankle. -.-

Prestwick
01-07-08, 09:49 PM
Yeh, because England lost it, not Wales won it. :D [/b]

Well, Wales did win it if Mr Edwards was controling Wilko&#39;s arm actions via radio-control if thats what you&#39;re saying...

nick_w
01-07-08, 09:55 PM
Looks like Johnson is trying to make his mark early with this squad. A lot of brave decisions, especially bringing wilko in as the only specialist 10. Prestwick is right, he was a solid FH before the end of 2003 because Greenwood and Tinds were making a lot of the calls. My worry is whether the same chemistry will be produced again. Wilko is under performing in every aspect, therefore he will have very little game time for England (if any) resulting in him no longer being picked (which is pretty much what everyone has said already, sorry!)

Anyway, back to business, I can understand why Johnno has dropped Ojo, Strettle and Brown, but could someone explain to me why he has kept Care in the team if he is meant to have been involved in this "Auckland Four" debacle, because I don&#39;t see how Varndell> Ojo and Strettle. Perhaps different levels of involvement.

my XV
Sheridan
Hartley
Stevens
Shaw
Kennedy KENNEDY!
Crane
Rees
Haskell
Care (despite above comments)
Flood (keeping 10 shirt warm for Cipriani)
JSD
Flutey
Hipkiss
Lewsey
Tait

Sir Speedy
01-07-08, 09:57 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
Yeh, because England lost it, not Wales won it. :D [/b]

Well, Wales did win it if Mr Edwards was controling Wilko&#39;s arm actions via radio-control if thats what you&#39;re saying...
[/b][/quote]
Na, we won it after Edwards gave Wales his famous, "I&#39;ll pulverise you, your families and your gravestones if you don&#39;t start f**king playing", look at half-time.

gingergenius
01-07-08, 10:01 PM
THERE&#39;S A SARACENS GUY IN THE SQUAD.

On other notes, I&#39;m quite happy with that squad.

Surprised Varndell&#39;s ahead of the other wingers (Strettle seems to have fallen right off).

+

Worsley, Tindall and Kay have been got rid of.

Flutey

-

Jamie Noon has managed to stay around.

----------------------

I can understand the other selections. Lewsey, yeah he&#39;s too old but Tait has to play somewhere and if it&#39;s not 15 then there&#39;s no one else remotely good enough to play fullback, other than Lewsey.

Vickery, while I think he&#39;s past it and should no way be captain, is still a good player, and though this is heinous for an Englishman to admit, we&#39;re short on tried and tested props.

I just hope people realise that however much they moan about squad selections, having someone else in there really won&#39;t make us into a world class team. This is done by good coaching, organisation and team cohesion. All the players in that England squad are capable of playing well and beating other teams. They just need to be pushed and prodded the right way.

Prestwick
01-07-08, 10:10 PM
Looks like Johnson is trying to make his mark early with this squad. A lot of brave decisions, especially bringing wilko in as the only specialist 10. Prestwick is right, he was a solid FH before the end of 2003 because Greenwood and Tinds were making a lot of the calls. My worry is whether the same chemistry will be produced again. Wilko is under performing in every aspect, therefore he will have very little game time for England (if any) resulting in him no longer being picked (which is pretty much what everyone has said already, sorry!)
[/b]

I think in the poor situation in which Wilko does get picked, I would go for a Flutey/Geraghty and Hipkiss partnership to


THERE&#39;S A SARACENS GUY IN THE SQUAD.[/b]

HOLY CRAP GET RID OF HIM!

Seriously, thats a death sentence for Borthwick. I&#39;d bet you anything that if (pre-ankle) Danny Cipriani joined Saracens, he&#39;d never get an England call up.

dundeesmiffy
01-07-08, 10:36 PM
Wigglesworth?
Admittedly I didn&#39;t catch either of the NZ test because I was out of town both weekends, just caught the highlights mid-week. Did he have a bad time in the first test?

I was sad to see Lipman omitted also, I think he&#39;s had a pretty awesome season...maybe a little young though.

I think the NZ scandal has played a big role in the selection, certain notable players who&#39;ve been on form...you know...scoring two tries, not getting selected.

The team I&#39;d pick out of the elite is;

1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Sheridan
4. Borthwick
5. Simon Shaw
6. Haskell
7. Rees
8. Crane
9. Care
10. Barkley (Keeping it warm for Cipriani)
11. Simpson-Daniel
12. Flutey*
13. Tait
14. Sackey
15. Lewsey

16. Chuter
17. Vickery
18. Palmer
19. Moody
20. Richards (Lesser of two evils)
21. Flood
22. Varndell

This is &#39;an&#39; England squad I&#39;d like to see, I&#39;ve kept the team fairly young with some old guns on the bench. I think it&#39;d be wise however to have an experience second row to give some tutelage in the scrum and line-out but I&#39;m all for giving the young guys a run out in full England colors. When Cipriani is back from injury (assuming he&#39;s resume the same outstanding form) I&#39;d move Barkley to inside center and see below for what I&#39;d for with Flutey.

*I&#39;m not entirely happy with Flutey being elligable for full England duties. Fair enough he&#39;s lived in England for long enough but he&#39;s represented the NZ Maori team and I (in my opinion) think that should disallow him from representing England. Nothing against Kiwi&#39;s or Maori&#39;s I just don&#39;t like the idea of people having had represented other countries at any level and then going on to represent another.
I however, and not that bothered about it, seeing as I&#39;m Scottish, haha. I sincerely hope he isn&#39;t any part of the British and Irish Lions tour, on the same principal...even if I don&#39;t consider myself British.
I&#39;m not denying his form, or his ability...he&#39;s one of the most consistent players I&#39;ve seen in a long time, he compliments Cipriani so well and I think it&#39;s a big part of all the accolades lil&#39; Cips has been receiving, but the whole premise of what some people in the media are calling &#39;imports&#39; doesn&#39;t sit with me.

Not that I&#39;m saying every other country is totally innocent of it...I recently heard Nathan Hines talk and I totally forgot he was an Aussie.

Ripper
01-07-08, 11:24 PM
We don&#39;t want him, the last time he was playing down here he was busy making looking Tasea Lavea look like Daniel Carter, if you lot want to trot him out for your national teams you won&#39;t here any complaints from us.

peppers07
02-07-08, 12:56 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
Wilkinson is past it and shouldny shouldnt have been been picked I think lamb or Geraghty would have been better until Cipriani is fit again. I havnt seen a lot of the Guiness premiership this season only about five matchs but from what ive seen of Ben Foden he should be in the senior sqaud. Is he bad at defence or something?
[/b]
Nope, it&#39;s just he can be suicidal at times. While he does many magnificent things, he does some downright dreadful things aswell - Wasps interception try against Sale in Adams Park this year; we could have had a vital losing bp if he didn&#39;t do that. (Then again, we could have had bonus points many-a-time this year.) <_<
[/b][/quote]

I see


*I&#39;m not entirely happy with Flutey being elligable for full England duties. Fair enough he&#39;s lived in England for long enough but he&#39;s represented the NZ Maori team and I (in my opinion) think that should disallow him from representing England. Nothing against Kiwi&#39;s or Maori&#39;s I just don&#39;t like the idea of people having had represented other countries at any level and then going on to represent another.[/b]

That means Mafi and Tipoki could play for Ireland that would be savage

gingergenius
02-07-08, 02:47 PM
We don&#39;t want him, the last time he was playing down here he was busy making looking Tasea Lavea look like Daniel Carter, if you lot want to trot him out for your national teams you won&#39;t here any complaints from us.
[/b]

yes, he&#39;s a good player but I find the fact we are picking someone who is essentially a NZ reject a little demeaning... considering we want to compete with them.

Would he be the first Maori ever to play for England?

MunsterMan
02-07-08, 06:58 PM
That means Mafi and Tipoki could play for Ireland that would be savage
[/b]

Tipoki in theory coulde in a few years but that won&#39;t happen. Mafi played 7&#39;s for NZ so can&#39;t play for Ireland/Tonga.

steynboi
04-07-08, 08:26 PM
I really don&#39;t think Martin Johnson will be a good coach, dont get me wrong he was a great forward but i just see him as one of these coaches for 2 years that don&#39;t get achievements and are eventually fired.

EnglandWillWin2011
05-07-08, 01:07 PM
Maori isn&#39;t a country so it doesn&#39;t matter if Flutey has played for them.

1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Sheridan
4. Kennedy
5. Shaw
6. Haskell
7. Rees
8. Crane

9.Ellis
10. Wilkinson
11. Sackey
12. Flutey
13. Tait
14. Simpson
15. Lewsey

That team could smash the 6 nations

dundeesmiffy:

"I however, and not that bothered about it, seeing as I&#39;m Scottish, haha. I sincerely hope he isn&#39;t any part of the British and Irish Lions tour, on the same principal...even if I don&#39;t consider myself British."


Scotland is a part of Great Britain, therefore you are British. I will prove this to you, go look at your passport, what does it say?

Bullitt
05-07-08, 01:09 PM
lol @ your backline.

Sir Speedy
05-07-08, 01:27 PM
What people see in Sackey is beyond me. I lol @ England if he&#39;s the best wing you&#39;ve got.

Bullitt
05-07-08, 01:39 PM
What people see in Sackey is beyond me. I lol @ England if he&#39;s the best wing you&#39;ve got. [/b]

I&#39;ve been saying that since the world cup (when I made a U-turn of opinion atwhich even the Labour govenment would cringe after seeing his abysmal performances), of course people throw abuse at me when I say it.

JSD, Ojo, Ashton & Strettle all offer more then Sackey.

steynboi
05-07-08, 03:06 PM
sackey is crap, he was nothing before he joined wasps he was just a standard rugby player and is still a standard rugby player he is nothing compared to habana, sivivatu and that lot.

gingergenius
05-07-08, 05:45 PM
What people see in Sackey is beyond me. I lol @ England if he&#39;s the best wing you&#39;ve got.
[/b]

He&#39;s quick, strong, scores lots of tries and has a very underrated defence. Unless Horgan&#39;s on fire he should walk into the Lions team.

EDIT:

reads Mite&#39;s post, see&#39;s Ashton, scoffs at a guy who&#39;s never even played premiership rugby and the obvious Saints bias clouding things...

JSD perhaps yes but he&#39;s always injured and has yet to prove himself internationally.
Ojo.. what do you see about him that makes him better than PS?
Strettle, again perhaps yes but he&#39;s always getting himself injured and doesn&#39;t score so many tries, he should have scored in NZ.

Can any of you name me one chance Sackey&#39;s had to score that he hasn&#39;t finished off?

Sir Speedy
05-07-08, 05:57 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
What people see in Sackey is beyond me. I lol @ England if he&#39;s the best wing you&#39;ve got.
[/b]

He&#39;s quick, strong, scores lots of tries and has a very underrated defence. Unless Horgan&#39;s on fire he should walk into the Lions team.

[/b][/quote]
I don&#39;t doubt his finishing ability; I agree that given in any try-scoring situation, 99 times out of 100 he&#39;ll finish it, but since half the tries he scores are sitters that the majority of the British population could score I find him unbelievably overrated by Wasps fans and the English population.
The wings for the Lions should be:

Shane Williams
JSD

If there&#39;s any justice in the World at least.

While we&#39;re at it, I suggest we put Dan Parks at 12 and Chris Paterson at fullback.
Oh, and don&#39;t forget Adam Jones at tight-head.

EnglandWillWin2011
05-07-08, 06:11 PM
lol @ your backline.
[/b]
Yours is 2 players different to mine, Wilkinson is a better fly-half than Flood when playing well, and I think it&#39;s ridiculous to write him off just now. To me Tait is far superior to Hipkiss, I think he could be regarded as world class in the future, Hipkiss will probably be always regarded as mediocre.

dundeesmiffy
05-07-08, 06:52 PM
Maori isn&#39;t a country so it doesn&#39;t matter if Flutey has played for them.

1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Sheridan
4. Kennedy
5. Shaw
6. Haskell
7. Rees
8. Crane

9.Ellis
10. Wilkinson
11. Sackey
12. Flutey
13. Tait
14. Simpson
15. Lewsey

That team could smash the 6 nations

dundeesmiffy:

"I however, and not that bothered about it, seeing as I&#39;m Scottish, haha. I sincerely hope he isn&#39;t any part of the British and Irish Lions tour, on the same principal...even if I don&#39;t consider myself British."


Scotland is a part of Great Britain, therefore you are British. I will prove this to you, go look at your passport, what does it say?
[/b]

1) I am fully aware that Maori isn&#39;t a country, my point was that he has represented New Zealand at youth level and as a Maori, fair enough it&#39;s only a cross section of the population but he has played international rugby as a professional player and that IN MY OPINION should make him ineligible to play for England or any other country he stays in for long enough. That is more or less my qualm with Flutey playing for England and or the British Lions.

2) I am fully aware that my passport is a British one, but I don&#39;t consider myself British. It&#39;s not through ignorance, blind patriotism or resentment for the former British empire but it&#39;s because I find if you ask a non-Brit to define what they think Britain is, they conjure up imagery of Tea, Crumpets and loving the queen. This is not true (stereotypically) for Scots, Welsh and Irish people and it is for that reason I do not consider myself or refer to myself as British.
I don&#39;t dislike the English, I went out with a girl from England (who stayed in England) for 2 years and I have friends in England, but I don&#39;t consider myself British, because when you say "British" people hear "English".
I&#39;m not saying every Scot, Welsh and Irish person shouldn&#39;t refer to themselves as British, I&#39;m just saying I don&#39;t although I am prepared to admit that I legally am a British person.

3) LOL @ ur backline!!1!

4) I&#39;ve said it before, Paul Sakey isn&#39;t a, excellent winger, I would say he&#39;s perfectly adequate...and he seems to score a lot of tries for England...which unless I&#39;m mistaken is how you win games in most cases. Maybe his defense is ropey, but for his offensive work it&#39;s hard to say he&#39;s terrible.




<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
What people see in Sackey is beyond me. I lol @ England if he&#39;s the best wing you&#39;ve got.
[/b]

He&#39;s quick, strong, scores lots of tries and has a very underrated defence. Unless Horgan&#39;s on fire he should walk into the Lions team.

[/b][/quote]
I don&#39;t doubt his finishing ability; I agree that given in any try-scoring situation, 99 times out of 100 he&#39;ll finish it, but since half the tries he scores are sitters that the majority of the British population could score I find him unbelievably overrated by Wasps fans and the English population.
The wings for the Lions should be:

Shane Williams
JSD

If there&#39;s any justice in the World at least.

While we&#39;re at it, I suggest we put Dan Parks at 12 and Chris Paterson at fullback.
Oh, and don&#39;t forget Adam Jones at tight-head.
[/b][/quote]

I wouldn&#39;t put Dan Parks anywhere near a Lions shirt, there are a plethora of talents 12&#39;s in the UK; James Hook, Gavin Henson, Olly Barkley to name a few.

Bullitt
05-07-08, 07:01 PM
reads Mite&#39;s post, see&#39;s Ashton, scoffs at a guy who&#39;s never even played premiership rugby and the obvious Saints bias clouding things... [/b]

Remove Saints Bias as I have been thinking he&#39;d be cracking for England since he was rumoured to be signing for Leicester.

Then see his Super League and England RL record and add a dash of f*** you.

gingergenius
05-07-08, 07:57 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
What people see in Sackey is beyond me. I lol @ England if he&#39;s the best wing you&#39;ve got.
[/b]

He&#39;s quick, strong, scores lots of tries and has a very underrated defence. Unless Horgan&#39;s on fire he should walk into the Lions team.

[/b][/quote]
I don&#39;t doubt his finishing ability; I agree that given in any try-scoring situation, 99 times out of 100 he&#39;ll finish it, but since half the tries he scores are sitters that the majority of the British population could score I find him unbelievably overrated by Wasps fans and the English population.
The wings for the Lions should be:

Shane Williams
JSD

If there&#39;s any justice in the World at least.

While we&#39;re at it, I suggest we put Dan Parks at 12 and Chris Paterson at fullback.
Oh, and don&#39;t forget Adam Jones at tight-head.
[/b][/quote]

lmao. if dan parks gets anywhere near a lions shirt i&#39;ll cry. and paterson couldn&#39;t even make the gloucester team. lee byrne has to be the top 15 atm....

well in order to satisfy mite&#39;s criteria i reckon you have to put farrell and paul in the centres and vainikolo on the wing because of course being good at RL means everything...

EnglandWillWin2011
05-07-08, 08:02 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
Maori isn&#39;t a country so it doesn&#39;t matter if Flutey has played for them.

1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Sheridan
4. Kennedy
5. Shaw
6. Haskell
7. Rees
8. Crane

9.Ellis
10. Wilkinson
11. Sackey
12. Flutey
13. Tait
14. Simpson
15. Lewsey

That team could smash the 6 nations

dundeesmiffy:

"I however, and not that bothered about it, seeing as I&#39;m Scottish, haha. I sincerely hope he isn&#39;t any part of the British and Irish Lions tour, on the same principal...even if I don&#39;t consider myself British."


Scotland is a part of Great Britain, therefore you are British. I will prove this to you, go look at your passport, what does it say?
[/b]

1) I am fully aware that Maori isn&#39;t a country, my point was that he has represented New Zealand at youth level and as a Maori, fair enough it&#39;s only a cross section of the population but he has played international rugby as a professional player and that IN MY OPINION should make him ineligible to play for England or any other country he stays in for long enough. That is more or less my qualm with Flutey playing for England and or the British Lions.

2) I am fully aware that my passport is a British one, but I don&#39;t consider myself British. It&#39;s not through ignorance, blind patriotism or resentment for the former British empire but it&#39;s because I find if you ask a non-Brit to define what they think Britain is, they conjure up imagery of Tea, Crumpets and loving the queen. This is not true (stereotypically) for Scots, Welsh and Irish people and it is for that reason I do not consider myself or refer to myself as British.
I don&#39;t dislike the English, I went out with a girl from England (who stayed in England) for 2 years and I have friends in England, but I don&#39;t consider myself British, because when you say "British" people hear "English".
I&#39;m not saying every Scot, Welsh and Irish person shouldn&#39;t refer to themselves as British, I&#39;m just saying I don&#39;t although I am prepared to admit that I legally am a British person.

3) LOL @ ur backline!!1!

4) I&#39;ve said it before, Paul Sakey isn&#39;t a, excellent winger, I would say he&#39;s perfectly adequate...and he seems to score a lot of tries for England...which unless I&#39;m mistaken is how you win games in most cases. Maybe his defense is ropey, but for his offensive work it&#39;s hard to say he&#39;s terrible.




<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
What people see in Sackey is beyond me. I lol @ England if he&#39;s the best wing you&#39;ve got.
[/b]

He&#39;s quick, strong, scores lots of tries and has a very underrated defence. Unless Horgan&#39;s on fire he should walk into the Lions team.

[/b][/quote]
I don&#39;t doubt his finishing ability; I agree that given in any try-scoring situation, 99 times out of 100 he&#39;ll finish it, but since half the tries he scores are sitters that the majority of the British population could score I find him unbelievably overrated by Wasps fans and the English population.
The wings for the Lions should be:

Shane Williams
JSD

If there&#39;s any justice in the World at least.

While we&#39;re at it, I suggest we put Dan Parks at 12 and Chris Paterson at fullback.
Oh, and don&#39;t forget Adam Jones at tight-head.
[/b][/quote]

I wouldn&#39;t put Dan Parks anywhere near a Lions shirt, there are a plethora of talents 12&#39;s in the UK; James Hook, Gavin Henson, Olly Barkley to name a few.
[/b][/quote]

1. So if you are dual nationality, and you play in a second grade national team you should have to play for this nation forever, even if you don&#39;t come close to being picked for this nation? I think it&#39;s pretty unfair to stop someone playing international rugby because they once played for the second team or the age-group of a nation when they were younger.
2. So because some stupid ignorant people from outside your own country think Britain and England are one thing you will not regard yourself as British? You&#39;re as daft as them mate.
4. I think Sackey&#39;s defence is quite excellent. He never misses a tackle, and im very happy to have him on the wing for England.



<div class='quotemain'>reads Mite&#39;s post, see&#39;s Ashton, scoffs at a guy who&#39;s never even played premiership rugby and the obvious Saints bias clouding things... [/b]

Remove Saints Bias as I have been thinking he&#39;d be cracking for England since he was rumoured to be signing for Leicester.

Then see his Super League and England RL record and add a dash of f*** you.
[/b][/quote]
How good do you think Ashton will be in the premiership and how far do you think he can go in regards to internationals?

Sir Speedy
05-07-08, 08:11 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
What people see in Sackey is beyond me. I lol @ England if he&#39;s the best wing you&#39;ve got.
[/b]

He&#39;s quick, strong, scores lots of tries and has a very underrated defence. Unless Horgan&#39;s on fire he should walk into the Lions team.

[/b][/quote]
I don&#39;t doubt his finishing ability; I agree that given in any try-scoring situation, 99 times out of 100 he&#39;ll finish it, but since half the tries he scores are sitters that the majority of the British population could score I find him unbelievably overrated by Wasps fans and the English population.
The wings for the Lions should be:

Shane Williams
JSD

If there&#39;s any justice in the World at least.

While we&#39;re at it, I suggest we put Dan Parks at 12 and Chris Paterson at fullback.
Oh, and don&#39;t forget Adam Jones at tight-head.
[/b][/quote]

lmao. if dan parks gets anywhere near a lions shirt i&#39;ll cry. and paterson couldn&#39;t even make the gloucester team. lee byrne has to be the top 15 atm....

well in order to satisfy mite&#39;s criteria i reckon you have to put farrell and paul in the centres and vainikolo on the wing because of course being good at RL means everything...
[/b][/quote]
Did nobody realise I was being sarcastic or am I just not noticing you&#39;re playing along with me? >_>

Bullitt
05-07-08, 09:42 PM
well in order to satisfy mite&#39;s criteria i reckon you have to put farrell and paul in the centres and vainikolo on the wing because of course being good at RL means everything... [/b]

Yeah, because a player who&#39;s just as good as a young Jason Robinson is worth nothing, we are talking about a fast winger, not an over-rated panface, Henry "lol" Paul or a poor mans Lomu. Now STFU.



<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>reads Mite&#39;s post, see&#39;s Ashton, scoffs at a guy who&#39;s never even played premiership rugby and the obvious Saints bias clouding things... [/b]

Remove Saints Bias as I have been thinking he&#39;d be cracking for England since he was rumoured to be signing for Leicester.

Then see his Super League and England RL record and add a dash of f*** you.
[/b][/quote]
How good do you think Ashton will be in the premiership and how far do you think he can go in regards to internationals? [/b][/quote]

Top scorer next season, no problem.

Sir Speedy
05-07-08, 09:57 PM
Top scorer next season, no problem.
[/b]
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/uploads/18240/lolwut.jpg

Defences are stronger in the Guinness Premiership, believe it or not.

errlloyd
06-07-08, 01:30 AM
I made an undefended and quite concise (shall we call it) remark earlier on (first page 4th from the bottom), and Prestwick asked me to elaborate. I just think England fail because you think a captain makes a good coach.

I already think it was an epic fail letting go of Ashton.


I really don&#39;t feel like defending what I said right now, actually right now I feel like sleeping, a lot.

But we will see if Martin Johnson can make England into the team that a large country in which rugby is probably the second most popular sport should have, methinks (firefox is telling me methinks is one word I thought it was slang) he will fail, epically. You disagree ?

Prestwick
06-07-08, 08:48 AM
I really don&#39;t feel like defending what I said right now, actually right now I feel like sleeping, a lot. [/b]

Not saying I disagree, just wanted you to elaborate on a comment which contributed little or nothing to the discussion.

Don&#39;t worry, I&#39;ll just wait until Leinster hire/fire/do something and I&#39;ll post an equally unhelpful comment like

"doing that thing to that person = fail."

Or words to those effect, I&#39;ll try and maximise the vaugeness and ambiguity factors by about 200.

Maccaweeny
06-07-08, 09:25 AM
Top scorer next season, no problem.
[/b]

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/9063/lolwutermelon.jpg

Bullitt
06-07-08, 09:44 AM
Keep on scoffing. Arseholes.

Maccaweeny
06-07-08, 09:47 AM
I just wanted to post the wutermelon.

errlloyd
06-07-08, 11:38 AM
<div class='quotemain'>

I really don&#39;t feel like defending what I said right now, actually right now I feel like sleeping, a lot. [/b]

Not saying I disagree, just wanted you to elaborate on a comment which contributed little or nothing to the discussion.

Don&#39;t worry, I&#39;ll just wait until Leinster hire/fire/do something and I&#39;ll post an equally unhelpful comment like

"doing that thing to that person = fail."

Or words to those effect, I&#39;ll try and maximise the vaugeness and ambiguity factors by about 200.
[/b][/quote]



Feel free I&#39;ll probably agree with you.

I don&#39;t see why you wanted me to post a helpful comment though. Would you prefer I had said "oh Jonno if your reading this and you need anything get in contact errlloyd@helpfulrugby.com.

Like if this was a tech support forum then fair enough I should have posted something helpful but really this a rugby opinion forum, and my opinion is that hiring your captain from 5 years ago is a fail and shows that you can&#39;t let go of the 1 time in the last 15 years were something good happened to England. (Yes I know there will be an anti Irish Rebuttle, but I don&#39;t give a toss), just because he was the one of the 8 forwards and 1 back that had the C beside his name doesn&#39;t mean that he can stand on the sideline and make 15 mainly unrelated people win matches.

But as I say time will tell, and I think it will show that captains can&#39;t necessarily coach (ok Roy Keane did an alright job at Sunderland and he wasn&#39;t long out of the game).


Increasing Vagueness <--- that doesn&#39;t make sense to me.....

Prestwick
06-07-08, 12:01 PM
What you put what basically incredibly vague and didn&#39;t really add much to the conversation, thats all. Any idiot can say "lol, Johnson = fail" but you didn&#39;t really elaborate beyond that, hence the ensuing mocking. If being vague doesn&#39;t make sense to you, maybe you should review your previous post!

What I would have preferred is if you had put what you just put in your original post! :P

dundeesmiffy
06-07-08, 04:08 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
Maori isn&#39;t a country so it doesn&#39;t matter if Flutey has played for them.

1. Stevens
2. Hartley
3. Sheridan
4. Kennedy
5. Shaw
6. Haskell
7. Rees
8. Crane

9.Ellis
10. Wilkinson
11. Sackey
12. Flutey
13. Tait
14. Simpson
15. Lewsey

That team could smash the 6 nations

dundeesmiffy:

"I however, and not that bothered about it, seeing as I&#39;m Scottish, haha. I sincerely hope he isn&#39;t any part of the British and Irish Lions tour, on the same principal...even if I don&#39;t consider myself British."


Scotland is a part of Great Britain, therefore you are British. I will prove this to you, go look at your passport, what does it say?
[/b]

1) I am fully aware that Maori isn&#39;t a country, my point was that he has represented New Zealand at youth level and as a Maori, fair enough it&#39;s only a cross section of the population but he has played international rugby as a professional player and that IN MY OPINION should make him ineligible to play for England or any other country he stays in for long enough. That is more or less my qualm with Flutey playing for England and or the British Lions.

2) I am fully aware that my passport is a British one, but I don&#39;t consider myself British. It&#39;s not through ignorance, blind patriotism or resentment for the former British empire but it&#39;s because I find if you ask a non-Brit to define what they think Britain is, they conjure up imagery of Tea, Crumpets and loving the queen. This is not true (stereotypically) for Scots, Welsh and Irish people and it is for that reason I do not consider myself or refer to myself as British.
I don&#39;t dislike the English, I went out with a girl from England (who stayed in England) for 2 years and I have friends in England, but I don&#39;t consider myself British, because when you say "British" people hear "English".
I&#39;m not saying every Scot, Welsh and Irish person shouldn&#39;t refer to themselves as British, I&#39;m just saying I don&#39;t although I am prepared to admit that I legally am a British person.

3) LOL @ ur backline!!1!

4) I&#39;ve said it before, Paul Sakey isn&#39;t a, excellent winger, I would say he&#39;s perfectly adequate...and he seems to score a lot of tries for England...which unless I&#39;m mistaken is how you win games in most cases. Maybe his defense is ropey, but for his offensive work it&#39;s hard to say he&#39;s terrible.




<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
What people see in Sackey is beyond me. I lol @ England if he&#39;s the best wing you&#39;ve got.
[/b]

He&#39;s quick, strong, scores lots of tries and has a very underrated defence. Unless Horgan&#39;s on fire he should walk into the Lions team.

[/b][/quote]
I don&#39;t doubt his finishing ability; I agree that given in any try-scoring situation, 99 times out of 100 he&#39;ll finish it, but since half the tries he scores are sitters that the majority of the British population could score I find him unbelievably overrated by Wasps fans and the English population.
The wings for the Lions should be:

Shane Williams
JSD

If there&#39;s any justice in the World at least.

While we&#39;re at it, I suggest we put Dan Parks at 12 and Chris Paterson at fullback.
Oh, and don&#39;t forget Adam Jones at tight-head.
[/b][/quote]

I wouldn&#39;t put Dan Parks anywhere near a Lions shirt, there are a plethora of talents 12&#39;s in the UK; James Hook, Gavin Henson, Olly Barkley to name a few.
[/b][/quote]

1. So if you are dual nationality, and you play in a second grade national team you should have to play for this nation forever, even if you don&#39;t come close to being picked for this nation? I think it&#39;s pretty unfair to stop someone playing international rugby because they once played for the second team or the age-group of a nation when they were younger.
2. So because some stupid ignorant people from outside your own country think Britain and England are one thing you will not regard yourself as British? You&#39;re as daft as them mate.
4. I think Sackey&#39;s defence is quite excellent. He never misses a tackle, and im very happy to have him on the wing for England. [/b][/quote]


1) You didn&#39;t understand what I said I don&#39;t think, if you have represented a country as a professional player (as in you have a contract to play rugby and to be payed for it as your sole or main means of income) then in my opinion, even if you only represent a country at reserve level (England Saxons, Scotland A&#39;s etc.) then you have represented that country and in my eyes that should prohibit you from representing another country.
Dual nationality is a sticky one man, I would say the same above...but it&#39;s not my job thank f***.

2) f*** you. I don&#39;t consider myself British because it&#39;s my f***ing choice not to. It doesn&#39;t mean anything else to anyone else but me. I will not be berated by some jumped up, ignorant, limey c*** on an internet forum.
It&#39;s pricks like you that make the rest of the world hate England, you smug ****.

3) Learn to count you f***ing tube.

4) I&#39;m glad we agree on something.

EnglandWillWin2011
06-07-08, 09:49 PM
Ok, well im not considering myself from Yorkshire now, because people think we wear flat caps and have whippets!

dundeesmiffy
06-07-08, 11:09 PM
Did you get a Yorkshire passport too?

errlloyd
07-07-08, 01:45 AM
What you put what basically incredibly vague and didn&#39;t really add much to the conversation, thats all. Any idiot can say "lol, Johnson = fail" but you didn&#39;t really elaborate beyond that, hence the ensuing mocking. If being vague doesn&#39;t make sense to you, maybe you should review your previous post!

What I would have preferred is if you had put what you just put in your original post! :P
[/b]



Yeah ok point taken that&#39;s fair enough.



Hey in house, how come no one in New Jersey has alarms ?



In regard to the other Argument, I can see where he is coming from when he says he is Scottish not British. Tbh mate I am Irish not European. He doesn&#39;t want to be associated with the stereo type I can guarantee at least one person in the world see&#39;s British people as been (kinda snobby or football hooligan please don&#39;t grill me for this I am telling the truth) he would far rather be seen as the Scottish Stereo type of a William Wallace hero type or Billy Connelly. In the same way an American from New York might say he is a New Yorker in stead of an American because New York is seen as very European and the rest of America is attached to a negative stereo type in some parts of the world.

You like the Yorkshire stereotype <-- but I amint quite sure why. (My sister lives there though so I gotta keep quiet).

gingergenius
07-07-08, 09:58 AM
really, it shouldn&#39;t surprise anyone that a scottish person feels scottish rather than british. it&#39;s not uncommon.

i think it&#39;s a shame that British people won&#39;t consider themselves British, but at the end of the day the UK is an artificially constructed state out of 3 and 1/2 proper nations. I think the people in Northern Ireland are perhaps the most keen on being British (well the proddies anyway)...

I&#39;m British first, then English, then a Londoner. I&#39;d be happy to be part of the UK if we got rid of NI, and I&#39;d also be happy to be part of England on its own.

If I were American I wouldn&#39;t know what to feel since that&#39;s the most artificially constructed country out there and it&#39;s made up of immigrants...

errlloyd
07-07-08, 10:09 AM
Yeah I pretty much whole Heartily agree with that, its not really where you are from, its where you want to be from.

Although the Northern Ireland example probably wasn&#39;t the best in to pick, its all quite controversial.

stormmaster1
07-07-08, 12:47 PM
<div class='quotemain'>well in order to satisfy mite&#39;s criteria i reckon you have to put farrell and paul in the centres and vainikolo on the wing because of course being good at RL means everything... [/b]

Yeah, because a player who&#39;s just as good as a young Jason Robinson is worth nothing, we are talking about a fast winger, not an over-rated panface, Henry "lol" Paul or a poor mans Lomu. Now STFU.



<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>reads Mite&#39;s post, see&#39;s Ashton, scoffs at a guy who&#39;s never even played premiership rugby and the obvious Saints bias clouding things... [/b]

Remove Saints Bias as I have been thinking he&#39;d be cracking for England since he was rumoured to be signing for Leicester.

Then see his Super League and England RL record and add a dash of f*** you.
[/b][/quote]
How good do you think Ashton will be in the premiership and how far do you think he can go in regards to internationals? [/b][/quote]

Top scorer next season, no problem.
[/b][/quote]



can&#39;t see him as top scorer. Currently Varndell is top scorer in premiership. Not because he is the best winger (even i&#39;m not that one-eyed) but because he is a good finisher who has had lots of scoring opportunities. Even assuming Ashton is better than Varndell, will he get the same amount of scoring opportunities as Varndell, Simpson-Daniel or Sackey for example. I suspect the newly promoted Saints won&#39;t be able to provide him with enough chances.

Bullitt
07-07-08, 02:19 PM
Varndell is a sniper, the one (only) good thing about him is his pace allows him to get to those spots where tries can be handed to him on a platter. That said, if a prop had been in his position to receive the ball, his tally for this season could have been cut down to a quarter and Leicester still would have taken the 5 every time - The only try of note by him I genuinely applaud was that somewhat stunning effort against Quins on the last day.

Ashton on the other hand is just as quick (if not slightly faster), with the added bonuses of being able to catch, pass, defend (normally in a legal fashion) and spot a gap. His tactical kicking is also surprisingly good.

Also, I don&#39;t care what league you&#39;re in or who you&#39;re up against, 40 tries in less then 30 games (when your also still learning the game and are barely out of your teens) is nothing short of spectacular.

Prestwick
07-07-08, 02:23 PM
Especially if you&#39;re playing Esher, pride of Surrey.

stormmaster1
08-07-08, 08:56 AM
Varndell is a sniper, the one (only) good thing about him is his pace allows him to get to those spots where tries can be handed to him on a platter. That said, if a prop had been in his position to receive the ball, his tally for this season could have been cut down to a quarter and Leicester still would have taken the 5 every time - The only try of note by him I genuinely applaud was that somewhat stunning effort against Quins on the last day.

Ashton on the other hand is just as quick (if not slightly faster), with the added bonuses of being able to catch, pass, defend (normally in a legal fashion) and spot a gap. His tactical kicking is also surprisingly good.

Also, I don&#39;t care what league you&#39;re in or who you&#39;re up against, 40 tries in less then 30 games (when your also still learning the game and are barely out of your teens) is nothing short of spectacular. [/b]



So he is a better player than Varndell. Fair enough. But any winger&#39;s try scoring tally is hugely dependant on the other 14 blokes on the pitch making opportunities. on that basis i can&#39;t see a newly promoted saints providing as many chances for him. Whether he is the best winger in the world or not would not make much difference, it&#39;s down to the team.