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View Full Version : God help us - The World Cup needs him - Juan Martin Hernandez



Melhor Time
06-03-11, 07:35 PM
Juan Martín Hernández :(

It did not look good - Hernández tackled high yesterday for RM vs Bourgoin and his leg buckled with his knee getting badly hurt. The tackle was not to blame, rather the way he fell.

Got word from a contact in Buenos Aires that he is out of rugby for 6 months meaning he is all but out of the World Cup. The best flyhalf from France 2007 out. It would be tragic for the tournament and of course his country.

TRF_Hulkster
07-03-11, 01:50 PM
http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_6800107,00.html - Story here.

snoopy snoopy dog dog
07-03-11, 02:06 PM
Firstly, I feel for Hernandez. Potentially missing the World Cup due to injury is horrible for any player.

Secondly, is there a more over-rated player in world rugby than Hernandez? All he does is kick garryowens and attempt drop goals. Somebody should teach him how to play flyhalf effectively..

gingergenius
07-03-11, 02:18 PM
Firstly, I feel for Hernandez. Potentially missing the World Cup due to injury is horrible for any player.

Secondly, is there a more over-rated player in world rugby than Hernandez? All he does is kick garryowens and attempt drop goals. Somebody should teach him how to play flyhalf effectively..

Rob Kearney in 2009

snoopy snoopy dog dog
07-03-11, 02:21 PM
Is Rob Kearney a fullback or a flyhalf? Does he constantly attempt drop goals? I don't get the comparison I'm afraid.

Teh Mite
07-03-11, 02:22 PM
Rob Kearney in 2009

This

snoopy snoopy dog dog
07-03-11, 02:24 PM
This
See the post above you. I'm not denying Kearney kicks it a lot. He's not a 10 though.

Teh Mite
07-03-11, 02:24 PM
Is Rob Kearney a fullback or a flyhalf? Does he constantly attempt drop goals? I don't get the comparison I'm afraid.
VVVV

Secondly, is there a more over-rated player in world rugby than Hernandez?
Position wasn't specified.

snoopy snoopy dog dog
07-03-11, 02:26 PM
VVVV

Position wasn't specified.
Apart from this line:
Somebody should teach him how to play flyhalf effectively.

If he wants to play a kicking game at fullback, fine. It's boring but it's an adequate way to play.

TRF_stormer2010
07-03-11, 02:28 PM
Is Rob Kearney a fullback or a flyhalf? Does he constantly attempt drop goals? I don't get the comparison I'm afraid.

The previous post asked for a more over-rated player albeit rhetorically. Not a comparison per se.

That said I have to say that I wouldn't say Kearney, well, yeah maybe he was overrated being compared to God and what not but he did have an AMAZING 2009 to be fair.

TRF_nickdnz
08-03-11, 02:47 AM
Star Argentina back Juan Martin Hernandez has vowed to 'do the impossible' and play at the World Cup later this year.

Hernandez ruptured a knee ligament playing for Racing Metro against Bourgoin in the French Top 14 at the weekend and is likely to be out for six months.

The World Cup is scheduled for September and October in New Zealand, meaning the 28-year-old faces a race against time to be fit.

Hernandez knows he is up against it but is determined to feature for the Pumas.

He said on his website: "We are not far from the World Cup and the timescale is very tight but I will do the impossible to be there and fight for a spot in the team."

Argentina coach Santiago Phelan is likely to give his star man until the very last minute to prove his fitness and there is speculation in South America he may grant him a squad place even if Hernandez is only able to play in the knockout stages.

The Pumas open their Pool B campaign against England on September 10 and also take on Scotland, Georgia and Romania.

Team doctor Guillermo Botto was realistic when asked about Hernandez's chances of appearing in the game's showpiece event.

He told Press Association Sport: "Usually this kind of surgery takes six months to recover from. And we're exactly six months away from the World Cup.

"So we have to be optimistic and work towards that.

"He will obviously not have the ideal training, and will miss the rhythm of playing matches before the World Cup, but he may be fit to play in New Zealand."

Hernandez has suffered a similar injury before, in 2002. On that occasion he returned seven and a half months later.


http://www.allblacks.com/news/15600/Hernandez-in-World-Cup-race

Melhor Time
09-03-11, 01:06 PM
Who hijacked the French title... thumbs down to you.


Firstly, I feel for Hernandez. Potentially missing the World Cup due to injury is horrible for any player.

Secondly, is there a more over-rated player in world rugby than Hernandez? All he does is kick garryowens and attempt drop goals. Somebody should teach him how to play flyhalf effectively..

You obviously

1. Have never played flyhalf.

2. Have not watched much of Hernández.

Judging him on his World Cup matches vs France and Ireland.... He was under instruction for these two matches to play this way. Watch how he played vs Georgia in comparision. Or the Bronze final.

Hernández overrated... only kicks the ball high and goes for drop goals. Thats a good one. You did not watch him playing for Paris from 2007-2009 did you.... There is no coincidence that SF Paris have gone to the cleaners without him. Beauxis has struggled. The team is losing to the likes of Castres and Brive now. Unthinkable.... As soon as he left the club plummeted. Last season was the first without him and the worst Top 14 in the history of the club. This season is looking just as bad, if not worse. The team will not make the Play-offs and thus miss out on the Heineken Cup. Before he left SF were playing well and semi finalists every year of the Top 14. All the French rugby sources talked of him as being the best player in the competition and many the world.

If you don´t rate Hernández then thats your call but you certainly need to try to explain yourself a lot better. Saying he kicks all the time is simply not true and stinks of an Irish fan with resentment because of what happened in the World Cup. I hope I am not correct about this. Its beyond me how someone can say Hern[ández is overrated. But when the person says its because of dropgoals and highballs it makes sense... you haven´t actually seen much of him play.

Overrated flyhalves = Dan Parks, Stephen Jones, David Skrela, Matt Giteau, Stephen Donald, Johnny Sexton, and the biggest of them all - Morne Steyn.

Carter and Hernández are in a league of their own. Complete players in defense, kicking passing and woth great running games, None of the above can tick all these boxes.
I would suggest you find a match of the 2007 Top 14 Final (Stade Français vs Clermont).

Anyhow here is the injury:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knN9xcgXkxs&feature=player_embedded

There are loads of videos on Hernandez. Here are a few.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzEXdp1EeTM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSHJ-z7p6AM&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruDunUputBY&feature=related

Logorrhea
09-03-11, 01:31 PM
Just a poor mans Gavin Henson if you ask me.

Can he dance?

snoopy snoopy dog dog
09-03-11, 03:40 PM
You obviously

1. Have never played flyhalf.

2. Have not watched much of Hernández.
That's a ridiculous, snobby comment. I played rugby until 2 years ago for a junior club and, guess what, I was a flyhalf. I wasn't a very good flyhalf because I couldn't pass the ball, sat too deep and relied on my boot all the time but I was a flyhalf.

There's no resentment here towards Argentina. Ireland deserved to be knocked out of that World Cup and were thoroughly outplayed by Argentina. If posts from the old forum can be traced you'll see that I was very complimentary of Argentina. They and South Africa were the teams who best adapted to the laws. I predicted Argentina would get to the final once they got out of the group- the comments of an idiot, not somebody who shows disregard for the Pumas.

My opinion of Hernandez is based on his play as a flyhalf. He's an excellent fullback who should have stuck to that position. He's good at off the cuff rugby when picked at 15 and if the game loosens up. He's not good at controlling a game from 10. In many ways he's similar to Isa Nacewa in that he doesn't have a good enough rugby brain for 10 but is a strong fullback who can fill in at 10 if needed. A couple of highlight videos on youtube won't change my mind. That website is littered with inaccurate videos as to the merits of certain players. Check out clips of a guy called Billy Ngawini- he looks like a superstar from selected clips.

Of course he played differently against Georgia and France in the 3rd/4th place game. Argentina are a much better team than Georgia so could play with freedom while the bronze medal game is a no pressure type of game where the result is meaningless.

...................................

Apologies for getting mixed up about talk of Rob Kearney. I thought people were comparing him to JM Hernandez's play at flyhalf rather than judging him solely as a fullback. Kearney plays similarly as a fullback to how Hernandez plays at flyhalf. Kearney is 09 was another victim of the Sky Sports Rugby Club hype machine. A good player but no superstar. Currently they can't get enough of Tom Croft, Dan Cole and Chris Ashton. Morris and Barnes will put you off any player!

Charles
09-03-11, 03:49 PM
Melhor you need to loosen up a bit aye...Are you an aspie? Don't you get humour, or irony?

Gavin
09-03-11, 04:39 PM
The fact is when Hernandez runs he looks good. He flows like a river in a very similar motion to James Hook. They glide across the grass.

Logorrhea
09-03-11, 04:41 PM
Your saying he CAN dance then yeah? What about Ice Skating? Can he skate?

Gavin
09-03-11, 04:48 PM
He probably can seeing as he has clear balance when he runs.

TRF_Hulkster
09-03-11, 05:38 PM
Melhor you need to loosen up a bit aye...Are you an aspie? Don't you get humour, or irony?

Concur with this sentiment.

Also the title was changed because this is an English speaking forum so we do kindly ask members to respect that and post in English. There is an international forum to discuss anything in an international language.

Teh Mite
09-03-11, 06:07 PM
Overrated flyhalves = Dan Parks, Stephen Jones, David Skrela, Matt Giteau, Stephen Donald, Johnny Sexton, and the biggest of them all - Morne Steyn.
Dan Parks - Nobody rates him. In an interesting tuen of events though, that still counts as being over-rated.
Stephen Jones - No, he's rated highly and rightly so
David Skrela - One of the best in the business. Recognised as so.
Matt Giteau - Everyone knows he's past his best now. At his peak however, he was vastly under-rated compared to his match winning ability.
Stephen Donald - Nobody understands why he's a black. Nobody rates him. Nobody would even be aware of him if Nick Evans had remained in New Zealand.
Johnny Sexton - Over-rated by the Irish maybe but vastly under-rated by the rest of the world.

Hernandez is a one trick pony. It's a pretty good trick, but straightforward enough to take out of a game.

Melhor Time
09-03-11, 11:01 PM
Snobby

I certainly think its not ridiculous to say what I said, not going off your first post. Your response is a good one in backing up what you did have to say, and it is a good reply, but I´d really like to know how much you have seen Hernández playing at flyhalf. I don´t think the comparison to Nacewa is a solid one but I see where you are coming from. I can´t get past the comment of yours that Hernández doesn´t have a good rugby brain. It reads like you have not watched much of him at all and are truely going off a restricted number of matches.

I would be happy to show Hernández creating tries for club and country. He is highly creative. Sadly some coaches prefer to use him differently. Euan McKenzie liked him kicking the pill high all day and Pierre Berbezier was playing him at 12. At 10 he is very creative. I don´t like or approve of the way he has been used in many matches. I am not simply saying this as a fan as I am also a coach and know perfectly well what its like to play players out of position or give them specific orders of how to play. From what I´ve read from online comments many people say Hernández is a kicking addict, and a good one, but the same people ignore his other attributes. Both big and small things that he has done to assist or creative tries.

The key point is he started at flyhalf permanently in 2007. For Argentina he played one test vs Italy at flyhalf in 2006 and then the World Cup followed by one test in 2008 and two in 2009. He missed all others (2008-present) due to injury. So, there is not a lot to judge him on. In other words, seeing him play for club is a must. Also bare in mind that Argentina receive half as many tests as 3N and 6N teams. 5 in 2009, 6 in 2010. Only one test vs Wales for Argentina before the World Cup. You´ll get to see Toby Flood play 5 6N games alone.

Obviously his kicking is top shelf, as the following videos shows bit the others are showing him make the play to create tries either by throwing the key pass or by putting someone else in the gap - i.e. being a flyhalf not a fullback. I don´t see the need to show his tries - some great ones like vs France in 2003 and again in 2006.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXf4V6fHxG8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TotcgN2VdE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJNvZyMavNQ&feature=related

edit... sadly the one vs Italy in 2008 no longer works

Also, did you not see the players before and after the Bronze Final? It was a huge occasion for them - anything but meaningless as you put it. They sung the anthem with passion, played like it was a final and did so for the full 80 minutes. Hernández played differently in this match as he was instructed to do so. Fact. Marcelo Loffreda said so himself after the match.

Seriously, you should go see more of him. The 2007 Top 14 Final for instance. See below...

About Georgia. They are highly underrated. Ireland found this out. Georgia have not lost at home for over 6 years. they defeated both Canada and the USA in November. No small achievement.

If this were about another Puma, like Felipe Contepomi then I would not argue. He is not an international flyhalf anymore. He was poor vs Ireland and France in the November tour. He is still a top 12 but not a 10. If Hernández is gone from the World Cup then I would like Santiago Fernández to play 10 and Contepomi 12.

Charles

Merci but humour is a strong point of mine, or so I am told.

Cymro

Point taken. Thus you should change your user name to Wales and I should change mine too. ;).


Dan Parks - Nobody rates him. In an interesting tuen of events though, that still counts as being over-rated.
Stephen Jones - No, he's rated highly and rightly so
David Skrela - One of the best in the business. Recognised as so.
Matt Giteau - Everyone knows he's past his best now. At his peak however, he was vastly under-rated compared to his match winning ability.
Stephen Donald - Nobody understands why he's a black. Nobody rates him. Nobody would even be aware of him if Nick Evans had remained in New Zealand.
Johnny Sexton - Over-rated by the Irish maybe but vastly under-rated by the rest of the world.

Hernandez is a one trick pony. It's a pretty good trick, but straightforward enough to take out of a game.

Bullitt

I could argue against your post but I think it would be more productive to ask you if it means you think these guys are better than Hernández. I´d like to further my suggestion to snoopy to you too. I can´t belive people think Hernández is anything but gifted. Saying he is only a kicker. My God... Morne Steyn is a boot, Hernández an all-rounded player. All of his missed appearances for Argentina since 2007 due to a broken hand, fractured back, corked thigh and now ligament damage in his knee have denied people the chance of seeing as much of him as they seem to need to. Best 10 of the World Cup. Best player in the Top 14 two times - once when playing 15 and once at 10. No small achievements. The experts seem to agree with me...


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8v89n_rugby-stade-francais-clermont-final_sport

Teh Mite
09-03-11, 11:03 PM
You'll be telling us that Argentina are on par with the All Blacks next.

TRF_Hulkster
09-03-11, 11:15 PM
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/54/facepalm134.jpg

TRF_Olyy
09-03-11, 11:23 PM
Cymro

Point taken. Thus you should change your user name to Wales and I should change mine too. ;).

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8756/reaction5qm0.jpg

TRF_Hulkster
09-03-11, 11:25 PM
Cymro does not mean Wales :lol: Cymru does however ;)

dullonien
09-03-11, 11:29 PM
Mehlor, the one problem with your arguments, is that it is no longer 2007. It's been almost four years since Hernandez was considered up there with the best. Alot can change in that time, including the emergence of many players who were 14/15 years old at the time the last world cup rolled around.

Hernandez was a great player, and still could be, but the list of injuries you posted above has impacted his standing within the game. He's barely played recently, and can therefore no longer be considered in the same standing as the leading fly-halves today. A similar thing happened to Wilkinson after the 2003 world cup, and I'm sorry to say but he's never recovered (although playing ok at the moment).

I thought Hernandez was quite a player in '07 / '08, not as great as some made out, but still very good. But I've gotta agree with the rest in this thread, he is now living on past glories, and is therefore overrated.

Edit. Just like to add that it's a pitty that we will probably not see Hernandez at the world cup. Argenitina however would be crazy to consider taking him if he does recover in time, because he'd have no gametime and no fitness.

TRF_Olyy
09-03-11, 11:30 PM
Cymro means Welshman,
I'm not all thick you know (just 85-90%)

Just thought it was close enough :p

TRF_Hulkster
09-03-11, 11:42 PM
Cymro means Welshman,
I'm not all thick you know (just 85-90%)

Just thought it was close enough :p

:lol: oh you.

Logorrhea
10-03-11, 10:11 AM
If you swap the name Hernandez for Henson the thread actually makes a lot more sense.

TRF_stormer2010
10-03-11, 11:39 AM
If you swap the name Hernandez for Henson the thread actually makes a lot more sense.

I was thinking along the same lines;


Juan 'Martin' Smith :(

It did not look good - Smith leaving the field with a tore achilles tendon yesterday.

Got word from a contact in Bloemfontein that he is out of rugby for 6 months meaning he is all but out of the World Cup. The best flanker from France 2007 out. It would be tragic for the tournament and of course his country.

Feicarsinn
10-03-11, 03:38 PM
I can't think of anything Hernandez has done on the big stage for a few years now. He's had some bad injuries and hasn't helped himself by being in a team that hasn't made the Heineken Cup in years or so. He'd be behind Carter, Cooper, Sexton, Jones, Flood and possibly Steyn in my reckoning at the moment.

Melhor Time
10-03-11, 04:55 PM
Dullonien

Nice post and I agree it has been a long time since 2007. Thus saying he is one of the best players around is not a strong argument since it is 2011. However, in the matches I have seen him play he has demonstrated that he still has the goods. He lacks match time, granted, but I´ve seen him in the years since to be confident in his abilitities. He may have been battered around but he is still highly skillful and an elite player. When he was injury free and dominant at flyhalf in 2007 and 2008 he was playing a complete game and not being a kicking machine. My intention of using footage from this time is to show that he is an all-rounded player. Hence the 2007 Top 14 Final.

In his first match back this season whcih was from a ten month lay-off including back surgery he scored 20 points for Racing Metro vs Castres. Both sides are in the play-offs zone. Two matches latter he picked up a thigh injury. This was in September 2010. He created a try in the 64th minute. At the time I thought he was on his way back and that the season would do wonders for him and Argentina´s chances at the World Cup.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaTNNvbga3w

In South Africa he of course played the 2009 Currie Cup for the Sharks and was to play the 2010 Super Rugby Season for the same team too but got back surgery. With the Sharks he did well, despite playing at 70% due to his back problem. He socred 24 points for the Sharks vs the Bulls in a key match. Sadly the commentators said it was Strauss not Hernández scoring the try in the 44th minute.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kwy5Zc7e8CI&feature=player_embedded

Prior to joining the Sharks he had put in a solid performance to defeat England in Salta (see my previous post) in June 2009. Hernández left Stade Français in July 2009 and the club finished 9th in the Top 14. Their worst ever placement. Currently the club sits in 10th place in the 2010-2011 season. I have no doubt that the club has plummeted without its playmaker. Hernández has been badly missed. With him the club made the semi finals evey year and won 2 championship titles in 2004 and 2007. In his last appearance for Stade Français the team lost a Top 14 semi final 25-21 to Perpignan in Lyon. Perpignan won the championship the following week.

I agree with your point on him and the World Cup. If he is not recovering well enough to play in the second pool match - vs Romania he will not be included in the World Cup squad. Hopefully he can return.

Feicarsinn

Similar. But if you look back to how this all started he was being slammed as a kicking flyhalf and thus not a very good flyhalf. I think that argument has been buried - clearly he is a gifted all around flyhalf.

In terms of not playing enough recently to get an opinion - I agree. At the moment it is actually very tough to assess him. But again, going back to what I argued in my posts I am going off matches he has played in at flyhalf in 2007, 2008 and 2009. In the limited matches he has played in 2010-2011 it has been clear that he has the goods. But to be a force he needs to play much more.