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Canadian_Rugby_Guy
21-03-06, 03:03 PM
I thought this was a very well-written article, and an interesting topic to discuss.
Source: Planet Rugby


State of the Six Nations - Italy
Tuesday March 21 2006
Italy's bright future not yet secure
It is hard to get tired of the colour, enthusiasm and simple difference that Italy has brought to Europe's flagship tournament, irrespective of past results.



A packed Stadio Flaminio, belting out Italy's proud and gusto-laden anthem is a sight that every top-level tournament should be blessed with.

This time though, the Italians promised, and then delivered. No wins once again was the return, but they held leads over France, England, Scotland and Ireland, and fought back from 15-3 down away at Wales to grab their first ever Six Nations point on the road. Wooden spoon or not, this tournament has been a success for Pierre Berbizier.

So, the future is bright in Italy. But below international level, the game in Italy seems to be fast approaching a crossroads - and help in both choosing and travelling down the right road will almost be required from sources outside of the country.

Of the 22 fielded in the final game against Scotland, eight play outside of Italy. That would have been nine had Mauro Bergamasco not succumbed to injury early on in the tournament, and if the same team took to the field next year, it would be eleven, as Carlos Nieto has now joined Gloucester and Martin Castrogiovanni has gone to Leicester.

It is safe to assume that over the next twelve months there will be more Italian international players heading across Europe's borders as well, with the demand for players in France higher than ever, and English big spenders also waking up to the fact that internationals are available at knock-down prices.

For the players, it is an opportunity that simply cannot be refused. They will move to the best leagues and play week in, week out, with, and against, the best of the Northern Hemisphere.

For Italy's national side, this is marvellous. Would Mirco Bergamasco have been player of the tournament if he was not learning alongside Juan Hernandez, Christophe Dominici, David Skrela, and Agustín Pichot at Stade Français? Imagine what the Leicester forward coaching chaps will add to Castrogiovanni.

Italy's only exposure outside of their Super 10 is in the Heineken Cup, but of the two ever-present teams, Treviso have a ludicrous number of foreign players on their books, and while Calvisano do well at developing local talent, they are never strong enough to do more than limit the number of bonus points scored against them.

Below that, five Italian clubs are in the European Challenge Cup, but fare no better than their countrymen in the Heineken Cup. Not a single Italian team made it to the quarter-finals this year. The Super 10 has been more competitive than most previous years this season, but Treviso are still top, as they have been for many years. Below them, there is not much competition.

Attendances for league matches are poor, and the clubs have low budgets. European Cup matches provide a welcome boost, but it is nothing that a foundation could be built on.

So, an exodus to more competitive and challenging shores by the top players is to be expected - John Kirwan has said that he knows of ten players in Italy's elite squad who will be moving on this year, aside from Nieto and Castrogiovanni.

Kirwan, writing in the Observer last week, also said that his most pressing long-term aim had been to amalgamate Italian teams into the Celtic League, most likely as regions.

The politics got in the way - including an apparent resistance from the three Celtic Nations to Italian teams joining in. That might have only been Wales, who were involved in the utterly selfish and ultimately destructive agenda of joining the Powergen Cup.

The share of television audience for rugby in Italy has apparently increased threefold during the last five years, but, as with any television audience, it needs a product. The more Italy's players go to France and England, the less local passive interest will be activated. Italian sub-international rugby needs regular local, high-profile matches, and needs just one or two fresh-faced Daniel Carter-type superstars playing in these matches to get their passionate rugby public out of their shells full-time.

Kirwan's interest in having Italian teams joining the Celtic League was absolutely spot on. There would be political upheavals - very much akin to those which dogged David Moffat's regionalisation of Welsh rugby - but perhaps the subsequent success of the Welsh framework, not to mention the recent rise in stature of the Scottish regions, would help make such a move less fractious.

Then Italy's players would stay in Italy and play for Italian teams. Then the game would have a chance to develop in a new country. Then Italian clubs would be more competitive in Europe. Then, the foreign-based Italian players might return. Then the Celtic League would get some badly-needed colour, and perhaps even a sponsor. Then the Italian clubs - and their Union - would get an injection of cash. And so it goes on.

So, on the back of the Six Nations success of 2006, Italian rugby is approaching a crossroads. It is up to both the FIR to make the courageous decision to go forward down the road that the Welsh and Scottish went down, and it is even more up to the Celtic Nations, as entrenched members of the international rugby community, to move the subsequent roadblocks and welcome these courageous Azzurri onto their private pathway. Not just for the good of Italian rugby, but for the good of the Celtic League, the Heineken Cup, and for the good of the world game.

By Danny Stephens


I personally find that it's great that Italy is doing so well on the international stage. but the article raises an interesting point that without a good home-based domestic league, the sport will not actually grow very well in Italy itself.

Canadian_Rugger
21-03-06, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Canadian_Rugby_Guy@Mar 22 2006, 04:03 AM
I thought this was a very well-written article, and an interesting topic to discuss.
Source: Planet Rugby


State of the Six Nations - Italy
Tuesday March 21 2006
Italy's bright future not yet secure
It is hard to get tired of the colour, enthusiasm and simple difference that Italy has brought to Europe's flagship tournament, irrespective of past results.



A packed Stadio Flaminio, belting out Italy's proud and gusto-laden anthem is a sight that every top-level tournament should be blessed with.

This time though, the Italians promised, and then delivered. No wins once again was the return, but they held leads over France, England, Scotland and Ireland, and fought back from 15-3 down away at Wales to grab their first ever Six Nations point on the road. Wooden spoon or not, this tournament has been a success for Pierre Berbizier.

So, the future is bright in Italy. But below international level, the game in Italy seems to be fast approaching a crossroads - and help in both choosing and travelling down the right road will almost be required from sources outside of the country.

Of the 22 fielded in the final game against Scotland, eight play outside of Italy. That would have been nine had Mauro Bergamasco not succumbed to injury early on in the tournament, and if the same team took to the field next year, it would be eleven, as Carlos Nieto has now joined Gloucester and Martin Castrogiovanni has gone to Leicester.

It is safe to assume that over the next twelve months there will be more Italian international players heading across Europe's borders as well, with the demand for players in France higher than ever, and English big spenders also waking up to the fact that internationals are available at knock-down prices.

For the players, it is an opportunity that simply cannot be refused. They will move to the best leagues and play week in, week out, with, and against, the best of the Northern Hemisphere.

For Italy's national side, this is marvellous. Would Mirco Bergamasco have been player of the tournament if he was not learning alongside Juan Hernandez, Christophe Dominici, David Skrela, and Agustín Pichot at Stade Français? Imagine what the Leicester forward coaching chaps will add to Castrogiovanni.

Italy's only exposure outside of their Super 10 is in the Heineken Cup, but of the two ever-present teams, Treviso have a ludicrous number of foreign players on their books, and while Calvisano do well at developing local talent, they are never strong enough to do more than limit the number of bonus points scored against them.

Below that, five Italian clubs are in the European Challenge Cup, but fare no better than their countrymen in the Heineken Cup. Not a single Italian team made it to the quarter-finals this year. The Super 10 has been more competitive than most previous years this season, but Treviso are still top, as they have been for many years. Below them, there is not much competition.

Attendances for league matches are poor, and the clubs have low budgets. European Cup matches provide a welcome boost, but it is nothing that a foundation could be built on.

So, an exodus to more competitive and challenging shores by the top players is to be expected - John Kirwan has said that he knows of ten players in Italy's elite squad who will be moving on this year, aside from Nieto and Castrogiovanni.

Kirwan, writing in the Observer last week, also said that his most pressing long-term aim had been to amalgamate Italian teams into the Celtic League, most likely as regions.

The politics got in the way - including an apparent resistance from the three Celtic Nations to Italian teams joining in. That might have only been Wales, who were involved in the utterly selfish and ultimately destructive agenda of joining the Powergen Cup.

The share of television audience for rugby in Italy has apparently increased threefold during the last five years, but, as with any television audience, it needs a product. The more Italy's players go to France and England, the less local passive interest will be activated. Italian sub-international rugby needs regular local, high-profile matches, and needs just one or two fresh-faced Daniel Carter-type superstars playing in these matches to get their passionate rugby public out of their shells full-time.

Kirwan's interest in having Italian teams joining the Celtic League was absolutely spot on. There would be political upheavals - very much akin to those which dogged David Moffat's regionalisation of Welsh rugby - but perhaps the subsequent success of the Welsh framework, not to mention the recent rise in stature of the Scottish regions, would help make such a move less fractious.

Then Italy's players would stay in Italy and play for Italian teams. Then the game would have a chance to develop in a new country. Then Italian clubs would be more competitive in Europe. Then, the foreign-based Italian players might return. Then the Celtic League would get some badly-needed colour, and perhaps even a sponsor. Then the Italian clubs - and their Union - would get an injection of cash. And so it goes on.

So, on the back of the Six Nations success of 2006, Italian rugby is approaching a crossroads. It is up to both the FIR to make the courageous decision to go forward down the road that the Welsh and Scottish went down, and it is even more up to the Celtic Nations, as entrenched members of the international rugby community, to move the subsequent roadblocks and welcome these courageous Azzurri onto their private pathway. Not just for the good of Italian rugby, but for the good of the Celtic League, the Heineken Cup, and for the good of the world game.

By Danny Stephens


I personally find that it's great that Italy is doing so well on the international stage. but the article raises an interesting point that without a good home-based domestic league, the sport will not actually grow very well in Italy itself.
smae thing happened to us in the early 90's man

Canadian International Rugby was booming in the ewarly 90's with notable wins over france, Wales, |Scotland, Ireland, and England and a 29-0 quarter final loss to NZ in the RWC of 1991 too bad we didn't develop the home game.

cavan
21-03-06, 06:40 PM
Look at Argentina though, they seem to manage ok with an ameteur premier league.

All_Blacks_Hurricanes_Lions_Fan
21-03-06, 09:04 PM
Even though the majority of the squad is playing overseas. <_<

Canadian_Rugby_Guy
21-03-06, 09:30 PM
But is the game really growing an established domestic comp? I haven&#39;t seen any real change in Argentina&#39;s position for quite a while, and they might be more competitive if their players stayed to play professionally in Argentina. Having a great team is good, but you also need fans.

DonBilly
22-03-06, 05:03 AM
Italy situation is a bit like that of Argentina bar they are in the 6N and this makes a big difference.

Maybe on the longer run their domestic league will improve if they get more people attending. This may happen if Italy follows improving and win more matchs.

danit
22-03-06, 03:01 PM
10 italian players in the latest 6N squad play outside Italy:
Ma. Bergamasco (Stade Fr.), Mi. Bergamasco (Stade Fr.), Bortolami (Narbonne, next year Gloucester), Canale (Montferrand), Del Fava (Bourgoin), Dellapè (Agen), Parisse(Stade Fr.), Persico (Agen), Pez (Perpignan), Stoica (Montpellier).
Some more of them have already signed a new contract for next year : Castrogiovanni (Leicester), Nieto (Gloucester).
Other players have almost closed an agreement with relevant foreign clubs: hooker Ongaro will go to Agen, prop Perugini and replacment hooker Festuccia also have good contacts (team unknown, at the moment). Also players who weren’t selected in the squad because injured, like Dallan brothers (who just consensually broke their contract with Treviso) will go outside Italy.

So, two ways:
1. “Argentinian” way: all the best players outside Italy, if they get very popular, rugby&#39;s going to became more popular too, but only if the national team gets winning important matches (Italy is in the 6N, that&#39;s very important, you’re right DonBilly). So there will be no way to have italian clubs in major competition such as HCup…
2. Domestic way: development of basic academy and creation of a couple of major clubs on provincial bases, partecipating the HCup and maybe Celtic League. This way many Italian players could go back to play to Italy, with much more experience and skills…

Federugby (Italian RFU) would love the 2nd option but they are finding lots of opponents... so well&#39;see.

Canadian_Rugby_Guy
22-03-06, 03:04 PM
Well my point is the Argentinian way doesn&#39;t seem to be helping the Argentinians much. They&#39;re a good team, but as I&#39;ve mentioned before their world ranking doens&#39;t seem to have changed much.

DonBilly
22-03-06, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Canadian_Rugby_Guy@Mar 22 2006, 05:04 PM
Well my point is the Argentinian way doesn&#39;t seem to be helping the Argentinians much. They&#39;re a good team, but as I&#39;ve mentioned before their world ranking doens&#39;t seem to have changed much.
World ranking really changes when a team plays regularly and since the Pumas are neither in the NH 6N nor in the SH 3N this is very difficult for them to progress.

el_tk
23-03-06, 08:02 PM
Best solution seems to be forming them into provinces and adding them to the Celtic League; it would require a lot of travelling though. Or the clubs could just join the Celtic League and have two groups with playoffs and stuff.

DonBilly
23-03-06, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by el_tk@Mar 23 2006, 10:02 PM
Best solution seems to be forming them into provinces and adding them to the Celtic League; it would require a lot of travelling though. Or the clubs could just join the Celtic League and have two groups with playoffs and stuff.
There was such a proposal sooner this season which included also SA teams as far as I remember.

el_tk
23-03-06, 08:19 PM
Yeah I remeber that but it looks unlikely to happen. In fact pretty much everything looks unlikely to happen.