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View Full Version : Magners League Vs Guiness Premiership



loratadine
01-10-06, 03:31 PM
heres an interesting topic that i thought would provide an interesting discussion what league is better.

i think that the gp has better strength in depth, but i think the top sides in the ml are more than a match and could win the gp

anyone of munster, ulster, leinster, scalrets, ospreys or the gunners could win the gp.

the styles seem to be very contrasting as well

the ml, provides many fast flowing attractvie games, where many english games appear to be powered wars of attrition.

there is arguements for both, but ive wamred to the ml, and belive its only a matter of time before it can match the top 14.

edinburgh_gunner
01-10-06, 03:38 PM
I was wacthing something earlier (might have been the Scarlets v. Quinns game) and one of the pundits had picked up on the fact that the top ML teams play a fast, flowing rugby and the GP teams seem to play a slower and more predictable game. I think that this is true, from what I've seen so far this year and especially during the anglo-welsh cup where the Ospreys ran rings round Glouscter. The fact that the Euro champs are a ML side, and that they finnished 4th last year in the ML shows how good the top teams in our league are.

The GP does have an advantage in that they are all private teams and so players are released for interntional duty and not plucked from their club mid-way through the season. There's also more money down south and bigger crowds and the league is more competitive because of relegation and such. The play-off system is a joke though, and needs to be scrapped.


The gap is closing for sure though.

Bullitt
01-10-06, 06:28 PM
Rearrange; "It", "********" and "is".

The Premiership has been especially fabricaed to be the closest and most even league in the world
thanks to two things;

1. The wage cap system of 1.7m limit for the whole squads wages (including the academy)
and
2. The 1 forigener rule.

Both of these make sure it is "the best" on a spectators level, meaning not only 1 rich team has all the superstars while the rest make do with the dregs ,a-la EPL *coughchek$kicough*, and local talet is brough through and developed instead of no end of continental players brought in (again, a-la EPL *cougharsenalcough*.

As for "the GP teams seem to play a slower and more predictable game", I don't agree. We have some very big packs ar the club sides in England, but when you look at the packs playing for say example, Sale, who do we have there;

Sheridan, Titteral and Evans; Sheridan is a massive powerhouse but supprisingly quick and nimble in open play, Titterall is a strong hooker acts like an extra openside in the lose and Evans is, well, a bog standard prop.

In the boiler room; Chris Jones and Christian Day; Chris Jones is an international 7s player and Day is a **** hot young talent for the future.

And the back row; Lobbe, Lund and Chabal. A backline like that speaks for itself.

That pack sums up the best in the Premiership... So where are the 'up-yer-jumper', "slower and more predictable game" players in that pack, when the only particularly oversize players I notice are Sheridan and Chabal, and telling them to not suck in 3 defenders with the ball is like trying to tell a Quinnell to not eat all the pies; it ain't gonna happen. As for the rest of them however, they play a fast, open, "broken" game.

Now as for the backs, Hodgson is one of the best and certainly the most creatives Fly Half to come from the northern hemisphere in many, many years, Cueto, Bell, Ripol and Robinson are proven runners and there are 2 slippery Scrum Halfs in Foden and Wigglesworth.

If your telling me that it's easy to tell what that team is going to do every week (apart from win), I'll call you a filthy liar. And if you say watching them is boring, it proves you're a filthy liar, or biased and one-eyed "waaaaa... not my league so it's rubbish", much like any anti Union fan would say just because it's not 13 man kickitaway.

Sale are not the only team in the league like that though;

- Northampton (if they've ever got a fit squad) have the backline many could only dream of in Sharky, Los, Cohen, Quinlan, Clarke, Lamont and Reihana. Their pack isn't nearly as spectacular, but ther are the likes of Daniel Browne and Sam Harding who are forwards who could be considered for centres while with the big men there's Budgen, Tupai and Tonga'uiha who will all go through anyone if they're up to speed.

- Bristol are playing above their station and taking full advantage to remain at the top by throwing the basics rule book out the window and chucking the ball about, flowing the game effictively and using what superstar players they have to full effect; Shaun Perry is the most exciting Scrum Half I've ever seen since Dwayne Peel, while they also have Roadrunner (Lemi) and The Chiropractor providing superb breakaways and massive hits which is always fun to watch.

- Wasps. Now there's a team full of superstars. They'll turn it on when need be, but can happily trundle up the pitch when things get easy thaks to the massively strong but mobile pack featuring Worsley, Vickery and Dellaglio.Then you considder the backline is made up from Josh Lewsey, Paul Sackey and Mark Van Gisbergen... Oh, momma do you not want these ******** running at you, be cause they will run rings around you.

- Gloucester have always prided their game on a strong pack pushing the opposition back (wayhey, a rhyme!) with their powerhouses like Azam and co, but somthing happened aroung 2 yeats ago... The bone idle cider guzzlers learned how to run a ball around and even chuck it to good effect. This was enhanced firstly by the Forrester/Hazel partnership which is part of Gloucesters heart and soul, but is also partially dont to emergence of young and frest talent reaching maturity... James Simpson Daniel and Pete Richards leading the charge. It's not uncommon to conceed a try that's come of a 75m run involving 5-6 different players against them.

- Irish are the enigma of the league; you never know if they look superb or ****. However, even if it's a wanky Irish team out, they're always willing to chuck the ball around. They have a smaller pack then most and struggle in the set pieces because of it, but with the calming influence of Mike Catt, the backs can play the most impressive rugby in the league on their day, Rikki Flutey being their superstar. A highly under rated side.

- Newcastle are much like Irish, only with an even weaker pack and a heavy reliance on Johnny Wilkinson. Which is a shame considering there's so much talent in the backs; Burke, Tait, Visser, Flood,
Shaw to name a but a few. When they put it together, they will run off into the distance and leave defenders for standing. Although they're f***ed when they need to retain the ball.

I've missed off Saracens, Worcester, Quinns and Leicester because I think I've made my point (and I can't be arsed to type for much longer), butwhen you put together all the availible talent in the GP and the way they do play their rugby, that's a very snobbish remark.

The GP is not predictable and it's not boring.



But now I've written an essay, and prooved you wrong on all your reasons against the Guinness Premiership, I need to get my smart alec comment in;

Why the GP is Ace:
- The most competitive league in the world
- It's growing at a faster rate then any other, bit the clubs that compete and the fanbases they have.
- The clubs own themselves
- I say so

Why the CL isn't better then the GP:
- ****ty little stadiums
- The 3 teams out of 11 dominating every season
- Ringfencing
- I say so

loratadine
01-10-06, 06:50 PM
****ty little stadiums

haha youve shown your ignorance right there with that sentiment.

you cant conduct a fair debate can you, you petulant bitter little man

but apart from tht bitter remark, you made some really good points, i think your argument that its a much more competitive league is true, but to say there only 3 good sides in the ml, is wrong

there are about 6 top quality sides who could win it.

its a new competition and needs time to grow,

but i think the top half of the ml is stronger and more enjoyable to watch than the gp.

edinburgh_gunner
01-10-06, 07:05 PM
Murrayfield isn't a ****ty little stadium, it's better than any single Guiness Stadium and the Liberty Stadium isn't too bad either.

loratadine
01-10-06, 08:09 PM
dont argue with him, you cant hell ban you

its ok for him to use the sword, use it back though, and thats not ok.

SmokeyMonkey
02-10-06, 08:06 AM
FFS Teh Mite the only ****ty stadiums I can think of off the top of my head is Connacht, Glasgow and possibly Borders, even Rodney Parade holds atleast 12,000! Forgotten Murrayfield, Liberty and Thomond Park have you? And don't forget we got the Millenium Stadium!

edinburgh_gunner
02-10-06, 04:39 PM
Glasgow play at Firhill sometimes, which is a nice enough ground...even if it's in Scotland.

O'Rothlain
23-10-06, 09:53 PM
I think Ronan O'Gara brought across the correct point and then backed it up this past weekend.

DC
23-10-06, 10:03 PM
Alright in my honest assesment, the GP is just plain boring, if your not at the game, its boring to watch on the telivision.. case closed.

First of all, from what i hear going to a GP game is exciting just like any other sporting event for that matter.. being there is better than watchin it on the tube.

Now, i have gotten the privelage recently to download matches from either league, and i downloaded wasps v newcastle.. sure the rugby may be good, with skilled players and such, hell matt tait is an incredible youngster.. but the play is just boring, too much kicking and to much conservative foreward play for my liking. That type of play is good to have at the international level, but at the club level its no good. Club should be about swinging the ball wide, ala magners league, lighting fast backs, and overall exciting rugby. Nothing is on the line in the magners league therefore they can afford to do this on the regular basis.. Now if the GP decided to drop the relegation, i wouldnt mind seeing some of these GP teams stretch out and run, it would do the league a hell of a lot of good to incorporate such play as magners league brings each and every week.

I wanted to highlight this from Teh Mite as i agree and disagree with some of his points.

Why the GP is Ace:
- The most competitive league in the world-- It may very well be the most competative as there are big name teams with big time players, but just because it is competative doesn't mean its neccessarily exciting, watching wasps v newcastle was torture, the most bordom ive had watchin a rugby match.
- It's growing at a faster rate then any other, bit the clubs that compete and the fanbases they have.-- Yes it is growing and growing quick, but so is the magners league, leinster alone have drawn 20,000+ to league and HEC matches.
- The clubs own themselves-- This is a valid point, i agree with it. The ownership of the clubs by themselves means they are not restricted to playing guys from a particular province or district such as the magners league.

Why the CL isn't better then the GP:
- ****ty little stadiums-- Stadiums may be small, but they are always filled, i don't know whats better, having a 20,000 seater where you can see more seats than people (london irish) or having a 7 or 8,000 seater that is usually filled. Overall more fans need to get out in both leagues.
- The 3 teams out of 11 dominating every season-- There hasnt any parity in the ML because the teams cannot have players playing out of province, yet. The GP has great parity and "competition" for this very reason.
- Ringfencing-- To be honest i dont understand what "Ringfencing" is

Final Verdict:
If your going to watch on tv watch Magners any day, if your at the stadium looking for atmosphere go to GP. Overall GP will grow larger and more competative, but still the magners league will be a nice overall alternative to the more conservative play of the GP.

loratadine
23-10-06, 10:33 PM
as ive said the gp, is just boring, but tht is because relegation makes sides play more conservative and on the whole, refrain from taking risks,

in the ml, no relegation means fast open games, take the leinster scarlets game this year

now tht is how rugby should be played, it is one of the most entertaining leagues in the world, it aint more competitive than the gp, but its certainly easier on the eye.

O'Rothlain
24-10-06, 02:10 AM
Alright in my honest assesment, the GP is just plain boring, if your not at the game, its boring to watch on the telivision.. case closed.

First of all, from what i hear going to a GP game is exciting just like any other sporting event for that matter.. being there is better than watchin it on the tube.

Now, i have gotten the privelage recently to download matches from either league, and i downloaded wasps v newcastle.. sure the rugby may be good, with skilled players and such, hell matt tait is an incredible youngster.. but the play is just boring, too much kicking and to much conservative foreward play for my liking. That type of play is good to have at the international level, but at the club level its no good. Club should be about swinging the ball wide, ala magners league, lighting fast backs, and overall exciting rugby. Nothing is on the line in the magners league therefore they can afford to do this on the regular basis.. Now if the GP decided to drop the relegation, i wouldnt mind seeing some of these GP teams stretch out and run, it would do the league a hell of a lot of good to incorporate such play as magners league brings each and every week.

I wanted to highlight this from Teh Mite as i agree and disagree with some of his points.

Why the GP is Ace:
- The most competitive league in the world-- It may very well be the most competative as there are big name teams with big time players, but just because it is competative doesn't mean its neccessarily exciting, watching wasps v newcastle was torture, the most bordom ive had watchin a rugby match.
- It's growing at a faster rate then any other, bit the clubs that compete and the fanbases they have.-- Yes it is growing and growing quick, but so is the magners league, leinster alone have drawn 20,000+ to league and HEC matches.
- The clubs own themselves-- This is a valid point, i agree with it. The ownership of the clubs by themselves means they are not restricted to playing guys from a particular province or district such as the magners league.

Why the CL isn't better then the GP:
- ****ty little stadiums-- Stadiums may be small, but they are always filled, i don't know whats better, having a 20,000 seater where you can see more seats than people (london irish) or having a 7 or 8,000 seater that is usually filled. Overall more fans need to get out in both leagues.
- The 3 teams out of 11 dominating every season-- There hasnt any parity in the ML because the teams cannot have players playing out of province, yet. The GP has great parity and "competition" for this very reason.
- Ringfencing-- To be honest i dont understand what "Ringfencing" is

Final Verdict:
If your going to watch on tv watch Magners any day, if your at the stadium looking for atmosphere go to GP. Overall GP will grow larger and more competative, but still the magners league will be a nice overall alternative to the more conservative play of the GP.
[/b]

Visit www.setanta.com (http://www.setanta.com/na) and then subscribe to it. It's the only way to be a rugby fan and live in the US. You'll get Guinness Premiership, Magners League, Heineken Cup, Anglo-Welsh Retardation League, Super 14, Air New Zealand Cup, Tri Nations, Internationals, Ect...Plus some Rugby League. Do it.

DC
24-10-06, 05:22 PM
nah i just get mine for free off of *REMOVED*..

plus i dont have directv

Canadian_Rugby_Guy
24-10-06, 10:36 PM
Magners League hands down. I've seen GP matches and highlights of those I've missed, there are the rare teams that produce a nice flowing rugby, but Leicester for example plays a very textbook kind of rugby with big forwards and quick little wing to finish it off. They're a good team because they have players who excel at doing one thing, but I've never been struck by their all-around skills. Backs don't ruck much and forwards don't seem to get the ball out wide much. Magners League has much more action, but it is true that it loses out on two things: ticket sales and the fact that you have a few teams who stay on top. Then again, the GP seems to have the same problems to tell you the truth. You don't get the impression that aside from Bristol, anyone is a surprise this season.

Bullitt
24-10-06, 11:01 PM
I thought the question was "which league is best", not "which league has the superstar clad sides". The GP is the most competitive league in the world, so it must fall on it's feet as the best competition.

DC
24-10-06, 11:35 PM
the "one foreigner rule" really holds the league back

and competative is not the word to use.. more like parity.. each team is about equal strength and can beat any other team on any given day.. but that doesnt make up for the fact that its not easy on the eyes to the casual tv fan.

Cymro
25-10-06, 03:48 PM
Magners for me really, it is a growing competition. In fact team like Borders and Connacht have come allong way since the formation of it.

An Tarbh
30-10-06, 10:52 AM
I thought the question was "which league is best", not "which league has the superstar clad sides". The GP is the most competitive league in the world, so it must fall on it's feet as the best competition.
[/b]

I'd have thought the Top 14 was the most competitive league.

Rugby_Cymru
30-10-06, 07:16 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
I thought the question was "which league is best", not "which league has the superstar clad sides". The GP is the most competitive league in the world, so it must fall on it&#39;s feet as the best competition.
[/b]

I&#39;d have thought the Top 14 was the most competitive league.
[/b][/quote]

I was about to stick my head in with that comment also.
It has to be the French league that is the most competitive.

But between Magners and Guinness it&#39;s a tough choice.
I think there are some people on this board that really forget what celtic league rugby is like during the horrid winter months.
Oh the rain! The cold! The crappy surfaces!
Dark Nights and bluster winds!
A perfect recipe for an atrocious dispaly of "professional rugby".
All of you guys who voted for Magners League, please tell me you haven&#39;t forgotten all the shocking games we&#39;ve witnessed where handling errors crawl into the 30&#39;s for BOTH teams; where the final score of the match turns out to be 12-9 because nobody can hold onto the ball long enough to score a try; and where the whole game is just a mess of bad-kicking for territory and falling over each other like a Benny Hill sketch.

The Magners League for a majority of the season is a very ugly one in my eyes and only and the beginning and towards the end do we get to see our "fast flowing game".

Then again, i am not saying that the Guinness premiership is any better. From what i&#39;ve seen in those conditions they do exactly the same as us. Yet more often than not i see the GP coming out with more tries during a horrendous game.
My idea of a nightmarish game is where the teams are only competitive by penalty points.
I curse both sides for having wasted 80 mins of my life when i watch such games as those.

But on their day, i&#39;ve seen some awesome, brutal games from the GP. Where the backs front up as much as the forwards and where the tries are as spectacular as some of the hits.
And the ML, as it is doing right now, shows some amazing displays of creative running, great passing and stunning on the ball-off the ball play.

I choose ML, but that&#39;s only because my Welsh regions are there week in week out for me to support.
As far as superiority is concerned, i couldn&#39;t call.

An Tarbh
30-10-06, 07:22 PM
for sheer low scoring games the premiership just can&#39;t compete with the Celtic League, who can forget Munster&#39;s phenomenal 3-0 win at Dubarry Park against Connacht. :P

Rugby_Cymru
30-10-06, 07:33 PM
for sheer low scoring games the premiership just can&#39;t compete with the Celtic League, who can forget Munster&#39;s phenomenal 3-0 win at Dubarry Park against Connacht. :P
[/b]

I pity each and every fan who watched that both from the stands and on tele that night.

An Tarbh
30-10-06, 07:38 PM
luckily for the tv audience they got the Leinster Ulster match instead, a far higher scoring thriller ending 9-8 to us :P we only had to endure the highlights, of which there obviously weren&#39;t many. Only the 4500 who had the misfortune of paying endured any suffering. :lol:

Rugby_Cymru
30-10-06, 07:56 PM
A brilliant example of the type of games the Celts can produce.
I think a few people my have too much of a romanticised notion in regards to our league sometimes.

An Tarbh
30-10-06, 09:08 PM
Indeed, fair enough those 2 examples were both played at Christmas in horendous weather conditions, but what do they expect at that time of year. I just get the impression that the Magner&#39;s league lacks the intensity of the premiership and Top 14, playing in Murrayfield in front of 2000 fans doesn&#39;t help, a full stadium is a rarity with most teams. Certainly not the case in France or England.