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View Full Version : No French team in next year Hcup?



DonBilly
11-12-06, 12:02 PM
The LNR are seriously considering not involving French teams next season in the H-cup. As you know there's still no agreement with the ERC on the H-cup format for next 4 or 5 years. The RFU and the English Rugby Premiership clubs are disagreeing on who should represent England in the ERC.

French Rugby, i.e. LNR & FFR, have difficulties with the next season calendar due to the Rugby World cup. The Top14 28 dates + the Test Rugby fill almost completely the available dates. The LNR is therefore likely to announce no participation from the French clubs arguing that there's no security that the best English clubs will participate.

In parallel of that the LNR should make a proposal for a new organisation of the calendar for the H-cup. They should propose a 5-6 weeks competition prior to the domestic season which correspond to the RWC window. This means that every 4 years when the RWC is played there won't be H-cup.

From what I read this proposal should be ok for the English clubs but is likely to be acceptable for the Celtic and Italian teams. I fear that this ends up in a Franco-English competition if there's no consensus found in Europe in the right format of the continental champioship.

loratadine
11-12-06, 12:24 PM
ummm interesting tht is. Edit: There is no need for your Anti-English comments Lora

gjohn85.

An Tarbh
11-12-06, 12:33 PM
well that's not the answer either, without the English the tournament would be diluted, inspite of their not so stellar showing in this seasons or last seasons competition.

I think the HEC is the pinacle of club rugby in the Northern Hemisphere and to not have it once every 4 years won't go down too well with the Magners league sides I'd imagine.

It does seem strange though that there's tv deals in place yet no arrangement in place for the compeition itself, I'm surprised the broadcasters allowed that to happen.

I think this might raise the question of having a more uniform season, playing the Heineken Cup in one block, the league in another, then the internationals.

Prestwick
11-12-06, 12:33 PM
Most likely that the ML, Italy and France would go off and their own cup and leave England to tear itself apart.

Edinburgh and Scarlets deserve a decent semi-final anyway.

On the good side, this will just increase pressure on the English and French teams to compromise to a standerdised season in the north.

DonBilly
11-12-06, 12:52 PM
Most likely that the ML, Italy and France would go off and their own cup and leave England to tear itself apart.

Edinburgh and Scarlets deserve a decent semi-final anyway.

On the good side, this will just increase pressure on the English and French teams to compromise to a standerdised season in the north.
[/b]

Well I am not that sure that the French would play in a competition without the English clubs. For French Rugby keep in mind that the number one priority is to keep the Top14, the clubs prevail on the national side, this may be reconsidered if for example the RWC 2007 campaign ends in a big failure, for example France not qualifying foer the QF, but for the time being the French are more likely to get rid of the H-cup than changing their Top14. That's why the English conflicting views about the H-cup are the right excuse the LNR want to use.

An Tarbh
11-12-06, 12:54 PM
I don't think this is a question of blaming the English as well. Remember Blanco was whingeing back in March about wanting a bigger slice of the revenue so that's what this seems to be more about and they're using these other issues as a smokescreen.

loratadine
11-12-06, 12:58 PM
Edit: Lora, Do you really want to get permanently banned? Because you are heading the right way.

gjohn85

what the? i didnt say anything out of order there, i jst think tht the super powers should stob sabre rattling and just get out if they dont want to be in this competition, they cant just pick and choose when they want to compete in it!!

SaintsFan_Webby
11-12-06, 01:07 PM
Lose the English clubs, the competition would be much worse.

Lose the French clubs, the competition would be much worse.

Lose both and there's no point.

Some people seem to have conveniently forgotten that English clubs lead the way in Heineken Cup victories, with the French just one step behind.

loratadine
11-12-06, 01:12 PM
i think these two need to wake up and realise tht while they hold the purse strings, there not the superpowers anymore and cant bully the rest of europe about!!

SaintsFan_Webby
11-12-06, 01:30 PM
i think these two need to wake up and realise tht while they hold the purse strings, there not the superpowers anymore and cant bully the rest of europe about!!
[/b]

What will you have without the English and French clubs?

Basically the Celtic League with a few crap Italian sides thrown in. A competition which would, in all likelyhood, be won by Munster or Leinster. And would generate little interest and virtually no revenue.

Prestwick
11-12-06, 01:33 PM
True, but the the Heineken Cup is meant to be a European competition, not a Home Nations competition with Italy tacked on at the sides.

I agree completely with DonBilly, France has this legendary ability to **** into the wind while not getting wet. They will do their own thing come what may, even if France crash out of the next three world cups at the group stages!

RoyalBlueStuey
11-12-06, 01:42 PM
They simply cannot be allowed to flush all the prestige & respect this competition has gained be flushed down the toilet in an argument over money/scheduling. It is a fantastic competition that needs to be protested & nurtured at all costs.

danit
11-12-06, 01:58 PM
foolish!

it's the HCup the real important NH competition, not the domestic leagues

just play a september-xmas 10-12 games HCup (with 3 weeks november tm window) and shortened january-june domestic leagues, and you'll get:
- much more high-quality rugby
- much less top players stress, having full rest for 40 summer days
- close, step by step, the gap with SH

O'Rothlain
11-12-06, 02:01 PM
I think this might raise the question of having a more uniform season, playing the Heineken Cup in one block, the league in another, then the internationals.
[/b]
That makes the most sense.

I also agree that the H Cup is vastly more important than the GP, the ML or the LNR. Those competitions should serve as national qualifiers for the European Championship.

Prestwick
11-12-06, 02:07 PM
It would be much easier to cut down the number of matches everyone plays in the GP, ML and LNR and then using the freed up matches for a proper HC knockout competition.

RoyalBlueStuey
11-12-06, 02:14 PM
It would be much easier to cut down the number of matches everyone plays in the GP, ML and LNR and then using the freed up matches for a proper HC knockout competition.
[/b]

Just get rid of the Anglo-Welsh....everyone's either in the Heineken or the European Challenge.

Have the Powergen for the Nationals...you could make it a national competition for the 2nd tier if you wanted.

The Heineken has to be preserved.

SaintsFan_Webby
11-12-06, 02:15 PM
Here's a thought. Scrap the playoffs in the Guiness Premiership, the revolutionary idea introduced by the RFU which has led to even more matches for top players. And how about we get rid of the stupid Anglo-Welsh Cup, going back to the straight knockout format used previously.

Basically, take everything back about 5 years and you cut out a lot of unnecessary matches.

O'Rothlain
11-12-06, 02:29 PM
Does anyone even care about the Anglo-Welsh Cup?

DonBilly
11-12-06, 02:31 PM
I don't think this is a question of blaming the English as well. Remember Blanco was whingeing back in March about wanting a bigger slice of the revenue so that's what this seems to be more about and they're using these other issues as a smokescreen.
[/b]

This was not my point at all although I love blaming the English as any sensible French guy ;). In this case I think the LNR headed by Serge Blanco are just looking for an easy excuse, nothing else. As I said it's a question of priority. For the English speaking people it may look natural to put this international competition at the top of their priority list; international in the end is not that big a difference when all these other people speak the same language and are historicaly linked to your own country. For the usual French guy abroad is something which is not that easy to understand and actualy bar some italian they feel it very British and so not friendly. To get some entertainment on this front there's the VI nation turnament anyway and that's sufficient. What the typical French Rugby supporter likes it's to pursue their endless rivalry. Can you imagine that for a typical Biarritz supporter the derby matchs versus Bayonne are as important as the Top14 final and more important than Test Rugby?

From this perspective the proposal Serge Blanco is about to make to reorganize the Rugby season calendar should be seriously considered.

An Tarbh
11-12-06, 02:43 PM
It's not easy though to reduce the number of teams in France or England, as had been said scrapping the Anglo Welsh Cup seems to be the way to go, keep the Welsh teams in it but make the format as it was.

France have already reduced the top flight by 2 sides so a further reduction any time soon seems unlikely.

There's still the novelty factor to this tournament where rivalries really need to build up and that will certainly happen if every country remains in the competition, granted slowly.

Symclaw
11-12-06, 03:20 PM
Does anyone even care about the Anglo-Welsh Cup?
[/b]

No, no they dont. Apart from the welsh teams, which causes the welsh media to go nuts about ****ty welsh wins.

Prestwick
11-12-06, 03:28 PM
I think the time should come to turn the HC into a Stanley cup kind of competition.

Just get rid of all domestic cups, playoffs and league trophies and plonk two playoff positions at the top of each league. Force the French at gunpoint to adopt the same season as everyone else.

Keep the name of the HC, just make it a straight playoff knockout competition between the last months of the season.

And there you go, job done. Just then change the name "league" to "conference" (i.e. the English Conference, the Celtic Conference, the French Conference, etc) and then unite all four new "conferences" under a unifying "European Rugby League" banner and hey presto!

A do it yourself standerdised rugby league!

RoyalBlueStuey
11-12-06, 03:44 PM
I think the time should come to turn the HC into a Stanley cup kind of competition.

Just get rid of all domestic cups, playoffs and league trophies and plonk two playoff positions at the top of each league. Force the French at gunpoint to adopt the same season as everyone else.

Keep the name of the HC, just make it a straight playoff knockout competition between the last months of the season.

And there you go, job done. Just then change the name "league" to "conference" (i.e. the English Conference, the Celtic Conference, the French Conference, etc) and then unite all four new "conferences" under a unifying "European Rugby League" banner and hey presto!

A do it yourself standerdised rugby league!
[/b]

Hee hee :)

That does sound pretty bleak doesn't it.

SB

Prestwick
11-12-06, 06:17 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
I think the time should come to turn the HC into a Stanley cup kind of competition.

Just get rid of all domestic cups, playoffs and league trophies and plonk two playoff positions at the top of each league. Force the French at gunpoint to adopt the same season as everyone else.

Keep the name of the HC, just make it a straight playoff knockout competition between the last months of the season.

And there you go, job done. Just then change the name "league" to "conference" (i.e. the English Conference, the Celtic Conference, the French Conference, etc) and then unite all four new "conferences" under a unifying "European Rugby League" banner and hey presto!

A do it yourself standerdised rugby league!
[/b]

Hee hee :)

That does sound pretty bleak doesn&#39;t it.

SB
[/b][/quote]

Its so crazy, it just might work! :lol:

I&#39;m a genius! :bana:

O'Rothlain
11-12-06, 08:50 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
Does anyone even care about the Anglo-Welsh Cup?
[/b]

No, no they dont. Apart from the welsh teams, which causes the welsh media to go nuts about ****ty welsh wins.
[/b][/quote]
Honesty is brilliant sometimes. It seems pointless as the Weslh have Magners and the English have Guinness, and everyone has Heiniken...Anyone else feeling thirsty? mmmmmm Adult beverages....

An Tarbh
11-12-06, 10:19 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
Does anyone even care about the Anglo-Welsh Cup?
[/b]

No, no they dont. Apart from the welsh teams, which causes the welsh media to go nuts about ****ty welsh wins.
[/b][/quote]
Honesty is brilliant sometimes. It seems pointless as the Weslh have Magners and the English have Guinness, and everyone has Heiniken...Anyone else feeling thirsty? mmmmmm Adult beverages....
[/b][/quote]

maybe that&#39;s why the French feel so left out, they can&#39;t have any boozy competitions in France.

An Tarbh
12-12-06, 08:12 PM
This issue isn&#39;t going to go away fast especially now that the IRB have pencilled in the world cup for September and October regardless of where it&#39;s being played, obviously Summer would have suited the NH teams but the Tri Nations has seen any chance of a Summer world cup go out the window.

What I would suggest though as a compromise, instead of not having the HEC every 4 years, play it in a different format. With 24 teams, you can have a prelim stage with 8 pools of 3, where each team has 1 home and 1 away fixture, that way you only have 3 weekends of pool games as opposed to 6 with 1 being free for that team to play a league match in their own country. The 8 winners then go onto the quarter finals where the tournament proceeds as normal. The pools should also be managed in such a way that no team from the same country are in the same pool.

Since the tv revenue from the HEC is not as high as domestic competitions then the broadcasters would be more inclined to support this than have no competion whatsoever.

DonBilly
13-12-06, 05:07 AM
This looks like a good idea. I would also add the supression of the June tour which follows the RWC in order to give more resting time to the players.

Rob The Titan
13-12-06, 12:12 PM
You surely can&#39;t change the format of the competition every 4 years that would take away the credibility of what has become a great tournament over the last few years.

The problem lies with too many meaningless Internationals and the farce that is the EDF Cup :zzz: where only the Welsh clubs are remotely interested (and 2 of them still couldn&#39;t get through their pool, ha-ha-ha-ha....).

While we&#39;re on it get rid of the end of season playoffs in England. The fact that a team who can only finish 4th but can be crowned the champions is just silly. People say the play-offs are good because there are Prem games where certain teams are handicapped because of international duty etc, but if we reduce the number of meaningless games (at international AND club level) then this argument is rendered meaningless and we can go back to the top team being crowned champs.

Prestwick
13-12-06, 12:42 PM
It wouldn&#39;t be changing the format of the competition, it would merely be changing the rules on when the competition should be held. People would forgive the NH from limiting the HC in a World Cup year, I mean, Rob, what exactly is more important here?

If you got rid of the EDF, the playoffs, limited the summer and autumn internationals to 2 each a year, changed the Six Nations to happen every 2 years and limited the HC in a World Cup year, that would all take the pressure off of a very overworked player base.

Some would say that would be enough to prevent drastic actions such as central contracting from happening in England.

An Tarbh
13-12-06, 01:38 PM
If you got rid of the EDF, the playoffs, limited the summer and autumn internationals to 2 each a year, changed the Six Nations to happen every 2 years and limited the HC in a World Cup year, that would all take the pressure off of a very overworked player base.
[/b]

I like everything bar the 6N every 2 years, some things are just sacrosanct.


You surely can&#39;t change the format of the competition every 4 years that would take away the credibility of what has become a great tournament over the last few years.[/b]

Well in an ideal world I&#39;d rather keep the tournament in its current format, but if it meant not having any tournament than I&#39;d gladly see it played under a different format, besides tournament formats are being constantly changed.

Prestwick
13-12-06, 03:34 PM
This is the main problem that we have at the momment.

We have a lot of different bodies, unions, comittees, associations and clubs all doing their own little thing, making their own little competitions or leagues and their own little cups.

The problem is, nobody talks to each other over silly little things like scheduling. And because of that, nobody realises that maybe, just maybe, having half of your damn league in the summer might, just might, be a bad idea when a world cup is around the corner.

Like I said, the sooner we get a standard schedule for the entire Northern Hemisphere the better, because the current set up of too many chiefs and not enough indians isn&#39;t really working.

O'Rothlain
13-12-06, 04:09 PM
They need to form:
*I want a large cut of all money made off of this name as I created it today[/i]

gjohn85
13-12-06, 05:12 PM
Or, &#39;EFISWI&#39; for short

Prestwick
13-12-06, 06:49 PM
They need to form:
*I want a large cut of all money made off of this name as I created it today[/i]
[/b]

Sorry New Zealand are one step ahead of you on arguing their case for a cut of the money.