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blackbird762p
04-06-07, 09:20 AM
As a big ALL BLACK supporter in South Africa I always ask myself why can't South Africa or the Boks just select a side chosen om merrit alone.It makes it very difficult to compete against world class teams if you are playing a side that's half baked and not the best in the country.The poloitical situation in SA does make it VERY difficult for the selectors in this country as they HAVE to select "players of color" even if they are not good enough to make the side.In other words,participating is more important than winning.Supporting a country that plays international rugby with a political backbone is not on and that is why many south africans are now simply turning their backs on the boks to support a sides that can still select a side on merrit.
:(

QKXV
04-06-07, 05:11 PM
While I agree that policitcs messing with rugby or any sport for that matter is not ideal, we don't nearly have half the situation that we did a couple of years ago when the quota started appearing as the talent now has developed phenomenally. It's been 13 years since the end of apartheid, so these guys we label as quota's now had worked through the same ex-white pivilidged tiers to get to where they are now, some selections clearly blur the line between quota and merit e.g you can't tell me Habana is a quota. Once talents like Floors, Fortuin and many more have matured more and gain experience, they too would eventually blur that line even more

As a South African I can assure you, real South Africans won't ever turn their back on the Bok, if they do, they're probably hensopper blood anyway.


Have a look at this topic for some more views on the quota:

http://www.therugbyforum.com/index.php?s=&...st&p=211094 (http://www.therugbyforum.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=18624&view=findpost&p=211094)

helpman2k4
04-06-07, 07:07 PM
Yip, It makes me angry as hell when this kind of thing happens. Lately however it seems the problem has been rectified.

BokMagic
04-06-07, 08:59 PM
I agree fully with QKXV that there`s no way in hell that a true Bok supporter will EVER turn his/her back on the Bokke. And I also agree fully with him that you`ll start seeing more and more "players of colour" coming through the ranks to become fully-fledged Boks- on merit - in the not-too-distant future.

Already we have Bryan Habana, Akona Ndungane/JP Pietersen and Guthro Steenkamp who are fully-fledged, 1st-choice XV Boks, and if you look at some of the talent coming through at u19 and u21 level, you`ll see plenty more. Remember these names: Chilliboy Ralepelle, Shandre Frolick, Sangomi Mxoli, Howard Noble, Bandise Maku. Out of this extremely talented lot, only Chilliboy`s played S14 rugby to date. The others were stars at recent u19 and u21 RWC`s. Give these guys another 3-4 years, and you`ll see most of them pushing hard for Bok colours, purely on merit.

shtove
04-06-07, 09:33 PM
The Boks against Samoa - they've packed a white pack, and a "blackline"! Or did I pick that up wrong?

yumyum
04-06-07, 09:59 PM
ummmm!! what you on about??

blackbird762p
05-06-07, 08:18 AM
Yip, It makes me angry as hell when this kind of thing happens. Lately however it seems the problem has been rectified.
[/b]

Thanks BokMagic.I think you have pointed out some important things about the players etc.I agree with your point of view and I also agree with the players.There are some real good players like Habana and Floors and even Fortuin etc.They are good enough to play on any day.There are good players coming through but I wish that there wasn't as much political input into the Bok game and selection as we are seeing these days..I am also glad that I am not the Bok coach.But it is a fact that there are x bok supporters that had enough and are now supporting the other sides.No one can blame them for doing just that.Thanks for your input.

BOKean
05-06-07, 08:45 AM
RICKY JANUARIE

HES THE GUY WHO SHOULD NOT BE PLAYING RIGHT NOW!!!!!

but still - go bokke!!!!!

QKXV
05-06-07, 12:16 PM
But it is a fact that there are x bok supporters that had enough and are now supporting the other sides.No one can blame them for doing just that.Thanks for your input.
[/b]


meh, still not worried, they'll only support NZ until the Bok kicks some AB ass in the RWC final, then they'll be back again :D

Prestwick
05-06-07, 01:46 PM
I say you should be ready with machine guns for when they come back. Kill em' like the dirty traitors they are.

woohoo
06-06-07, 07:07 PM
yes, the sa team's backline playing against samoa this weekend has only two white players in it... just hougaard at flyhalf and steyn at fullback, alhtough this is clearly not a first-string side

shtove
06-06-07, 07:31 PM
13 black players! I thought it was 7 black backs (the blackline), and 8 white forwards. Anyway, people are saying there will be fireworks on the field.

BokMagic
06-06-07, 10:17 PM
13 black players! I thought it was 7 black backs (the blackline), and 8 white forwards. Anyway, people are saying there will be fireworks on the field.
[/b]

Huh? What squad have you got listed mate?

Full squad for the Manu Samoa game: Steyn, Willemse, Murray, Julies, Pietersen, Hougaard, January, Skinstad, Rossouw, V D Bergh, Ackermann, Botha, Smit, Sir Du Randt.

Reserves: Botha, Carstens, Muller, Wannenburg, Pienaar, Fourie, Monty

I count only 5 "players of colour"- where are the other 8? And yes, there`ll be plenty of fireworks on the field- Hougaard getting creamed by a Samoan and crapping himself again, and some real skill shown between both backlines. And a pretty powerful Bok pack dominating possession and territory.

shtove
06-06-07, 11:56 PM
I misread woohoo - thought "only two white players" referred to the full 15.

Is JW throwing a sop to the critics? Or is this a serious move? Both, I guess. SA rugby politics is difficult, but SA talent needs opportunity.

BokMagic
07-06-07, 05:09 AM
Yes well, make no mistake, this is very much a 2nd-choice Bok line-up, what with the tri-nations starting next week. An opportunity for some of the fringe players to get a look-in, while some of the 1st-choice players are rested. But unless I`m very much mistaken, it`s probably the 1st time ever that SA are starting with 5 "players of colour" in a test match.

Good opportunity to see how the likes of the very talented Murray and Pietersen goes at test level. And while Julies is by no means a 1st-choice 12, the 1st and 2nd choice 12`s had a run against England recently, so a good chance for him also to show us what he`s got. There have been question marks in the past over his physicality, so a test against the Manu will be interesting.

Steve-o
07-06-07, 09:49 AM
I'm also interested to see how Murray and Pieterson do for the Boks. And i'm even more happy that Steyn will be at fullback instead of Pieterson, the Sharks were swapping them both between wing and fullback for awhile. IMO Steyn has more composure in that position compared to JP... Btw have any of you Bok supporters noticed that lil hop Januarie does before he feeds the backs? Looks like he puts them under more pressure when he does that because of the delay

QKXV
07-06-07, 10:29 AM
Ja man January is so slow he'll get dry paint wet. I can't for the life of me think what JW's motivation is, scrummy is THE position we should have no problem with at all, Fourie is hands down form no9 in the WORLD at the moment and Pienaar plays with so much pace and head up rugby. See what happened when he came on in the second test, immediately we started having options, playig on the front foot. January's look hop step can't ever compete with anything Pienaar has and face it, that try January scored was luck, the kick was all wrong and just happened to bounce brilliantly - he'll have had is quota of luck now.

Juan le Roux
09-06-07, 09:37 AM
I they select the best 22 players(of any colour) in SA they will be the best team in the world

blackbird762p
11-06-07, 12:10 PM
I they select the best 22 players(of any colour) in SA they will be the best team in the world [/b]

They will be a good side if the would only play sport and rugby for what it is.Politics aside and only rugby.The Tri Nations will be a good measure of telent and skill in the Bok side.But we have to keep in mind that they haven't been up against quality sides (AUS and NEW ZEALAND) so saturday's game should be interesting.If they can tame those two sides they will be in with a chance at the WC.If not they will have plenty of work ahead before the WC.Facts.

O'Rothlain
11-06-07, 06:40 PM
If they aren't playing their best side right now, I'd like to see what it actually does look like...The Bokkes are really strong right now.
Just to let you all know, A good friend of mine who's a missionary in Lusaka, Zambia is now a Bokke fan, thanks to me. While they aren't my first team, I don't have a problem turning people on to them.

QKXV
12-06-07, 05:50 PM
If they aren't playing their best side right now, I'd like to see what it actually does look like...The Bokkes are really strong right now.
Just to let you all know, A good friend of mine who's a missionary in Lusaka, Zambia is now a Bokke fan, thanks to me. While they aren't my first team, I don't have a problem turning people on to them.
[/b]

Well this is defenitely going to set the Bok back a few years if it is true what they want to do after the world cup:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/6745879.stm


outh Africa's rugby union bosses have come under pressure from the country's government to select more black players at Super 14 and international level.

The government's sports committee met with rugby officials on Tuesday to voice its displeasure at the number of black players playing at the top level.

"Sport can't escape the broad picture," said chairman Butana Komphela.

Quotas have been a thorny issue in South African sport since the end of apartheid in 1994.

The South Africa Rugby Union (SARU) does not operate a formal quota system with regard to the national team, although there is an unwritten rule that the Springboks will not field an all-white team.


606: DEBATE
You should choose the best 22 players for the squad and send them out to play the game

CC

South Africa coach Jake White included several black players for the recent 2-0 series win over England, including Bryan Habana, Ricky Januarie, Gurthro Steenkamp and Ashwin Willemse.

Rugby bosses defended their commitment to change, insisting the problem was partly a consequence of the addition of a fifth South African team in Super 14, spreading the number of black players even thinner.

Komphela added: "Sport cannot be excluded from imperatives of empowerment and transformation."

ANC MP Tsietsi Louw said that black players were being held back from reaching their true potential.


I am not happy with the pace of transformation

SARU president Oregon Hoskins

"There is a deliberate political agenda to keep these black players where they are," he said.

"Only three or four will (succeed)."

SARU president Oregan Hoskins agreed there were problems with the current system.

"I am not happy with the pace of transformation," he said.

"We will endeavour to do the best we can in what are sometimes difficult and trying circumstances."

But the committee complained that SARU had been saying similar things for many years.

South Africa's Luke Watson
Watson made his international debut against Samoa

The issue developed a bizarre twist last week, with Hoskins intervening to ensure the selection of white player Luke Watson in the team to face Samoa.

The Stormers flanker is the son of famous anti-apartheid activist Cheeky Watson, a white rugby player who refused to play for the Springboks during the apartheid years.

White has insisted that Luke Watson is too small for international rugby, but politicians have said that he should be considered a black player and given selection preference.

Recent reports in South Africa have suggested a radical change after the World Cup, with speculation that a team consisting of at least 10 black players will be named under a new coach.

White, it is reported, will also be replaced by Peter de Villiers, who would become the Springboks' first black coach with the side captained by Luke Watson.[/b]


That means if we don't manage to win it this year we probably won't win it for a looooong time.

O'Rothlain
12-06-07, 07:51 PM
It's a load of racist ****e, if you ask me...how does reverse racism solve anything? It should be equality, not special treatment.

SaintsFan_Webby
12-06-07, 09:10 PM
It's politcal correctness, positive discrimination, and any other related term you can think of gone wrong.

I think it's disgusting personally. Obviously I don't condone what went on during apartheid, quite the opposite in fact, but practically reversing the roles solves nothing.

The PC brigade seem unable to grasp the concept that there may not be many black players in the national side at a certain time, because there just aren't many that are up to the required standard.

The worst thing is when you consider that the likes of Bryan Haban have to be considered 'quota players'. Habana would grace any side in the world, yet it doesn't seem to be allowed for him to be picked purely on outstanding ability. Instead he has to be branded one of the 'necessities', no matter how ridiculous that idea is.

shtove
12-06-07, 09:21 PM
Equality yeah - but equality of opportunity only. No special favours. Pasting inferior players in is just cack.

But then, how do you bring up the talent from shamefully low levels (assuming it's there, along with the commitment) without doing damage at the top?

Put it another way: in the long run, SA is being forced to go from selecting the best from a population of 5 million, to selecting the best from a population of 40 million. How many RWCs is that going to add???

Judging by last week's performance against Samoa, the Boks are only beginning to adapt (12 years after the Victory :o ). Habana is a great player - but he should also bring crucial changes in attitude.

Boerwerst is great. Some mad SA guy used to serve it up at Galwegians matches in the middle of the Atlantic winter.

BokMagic
12-06-07, 09:26 PM
Yes it absolutely is, BUT that last report on the new, transformed, 10.5 players-of-colour-irrespective-of-merit scenario won`t happen. For the simple reason that the politicians, uhm sorry administrators, running SA rugby are actually all educated men. Sure, some of our good friends like the Stofile brothers might toe the socialistic party line, but deep down they`re more capitalists than me.

Let`s face it, the Stofiles of this world have become accustomed to being kept in a certain style. No JC Le Roux sparkling wines like the rest of us common plebs, please. No, they prefer the real deal, the Moet&Chandon imported stuff. They also like their crocodile leather slippers and silk nightrobes. Right, now being educated men, they also realise that it is the marketability of the Bok brand that keeps them in said style. And a drop in performance by the Boks will mean decreased revenue from sponsorships, decreased revenue from television rights, decreased revenue from bums on seats at test matches. And of course no new Newscorp deal, the main contributor of revenue to SARU, after the current deal expires in 2010. So that means no caviar on the breakfast toast.

Also, consider the source of this report. The Welsh have their A-grade hack Stephen Jones. And us Saffas have Mark Keohane. Really, I cringe with embarrasment every time that idiot puts pen to paper. Made his name in journalism by bashing every single Bok captain, coach and player. Ever. That was until he was appointed by SARU as Bok media liasion officer in 2002. Suddenly Rudi Straueli became God`s own gift to rugby, according to Keo. Straueli could do no wrong in Keo`s eyes. Not when he handed out 57 Bok caps in 2 years, not when he organised that little exercise in stupidity called Kamp Staaldraad.

But that, of course, was before Keo heard that he`ll be getting the axe shortly after the 2003 RWC. So, what to do? Simple really- bring the whole Staaldraad mess out into the open, a month before the RWC. Get out of it claiming the moral high ground, trying to smell like roses. And of course, sell hard copy.

So this has been the life of Keo after 2003- start bashing Jake White at every opportunity. Revert to type. Start by calling White a hard-headed guy. Start the pick Luke Watson debate. Give a forum to idiots like that Kumalo guy who wanted to confiscate Bok passports, in direct infringement of the SA constitution. And now start another little tirade like this. All in the name of selling papers mate.

Is it any wonder that White wants to meet with pres. Mbeki on Friday, and SARU wants him to go through "official channels"?

QKXV
12-06-07, 10:16 PM
Yes it absolutely is, BUT that last report on the new, transformed, 10.5 players-of-colour-irrespective-of-merit scenario won`t happen. For the simple reason that the politicians, uhm sorry administrators, running SA rugby are actually all educated men. Sure, some of our good friends like the Stofile brothers might toe the socialistic party line, but deep down they`re more capitalists than me.

Let`s face it, the Stofiles of this world have become accustomed to being kept in a certain style. No JC Le Roux sparkling wines like the rest of us common plebs, please. No, they prefer the real deal, the Moet&Chandon imported stuff. They also like their crocodile leather slippers and silk nightrobes. Right, now being educated men, they also realise that it is the marketability of the Bok brand that keeps them in said style. And a drop in performance by the Boks will mean decreased revenue from sponsorships, decreased revenue from television rights, decreased revenue from bums on seats at test matches. And of course no new Newscorp deal, the main contributor of revenue to SARU, after the current deal expires in 2010. So that means no caviar on the breakfast toast.

Also, consider the source of this report. The Welsh have their A-grade hack Stephen Jones. And us Saffas have Mark Keohane. Really, I cringe with embarrasment every time that idiot puts pen to paper. Made his name in journalism by bashing every single Bok captain, coach and player. Ever. That was until he was appointed by SARU as Bok media liasion officer in 2002. Suddenly Rudi Straueli became God`s own gift to rugby, according to Keo. Straueli could do no wrong in Keo`s eyes. Not when he handed out 57 Bok caps in 2 years, not when he organised that little exercise in stupidity called Kamp Staaldraad.

But that, of course, was before Keo heard that he`ll be getting the axe shortly after the 2003 RWC. So, what to do? Simple really- bring the whole Staaldraad mess out into the open, a month before the RWC. Get out of it claiming the moral high ground, trying to smell like roses. And of course, sell hard copy.

So this has been the life of Keo after 2003- start bashing Jake White at every opportunity. Revert to type. Start by calling White a hard-headed guy. Start the pick Luke Watson debate. Give a forum to idiots like that Kumalo guy who wanted to confiscate Bok passports, in direct infringement of the SA constitution. And now start another little tirade like this. All in the name of selling papers mate.

Is it any wonder that White wants to meet with pres. Mbeki on Friday, and SARU wants him to go through "official channels"?

[/b]

Fantastic post Bokmagic. Thank you very much, from the bottom of my heart mate. SARU was kaking their pants because of the Mbeki meeting with White weren't they, but I suppose they'll make sure he doesn't embaress them to the President now as they'll make sure he has a escort that can muzzle him if needed.

I suppose Keo.co.za is Mark Keohane's mouthpiece eh? It makes it painfully clear if you look at how the site reported Jake's innocence on that altercation with the journalist earlier in the week. THese guys are gunning for Jake left right and centre, IMO JAke is one hell of a coach having to juggle his personal goals, the Bok teams goals and then having to deal with the idiotic SA media, top that off with the Gov and SARU and you've easily got the most demanding coaching job in the world.

O'Rothlain
12-06-07, 10:40 PM
Kamp Staaldraad - One of the most f___ed up things I've ever, ever heard about. McDermot freaking committed suicide after the whole thing...Suicide over a rugby incident.
Why did any of the players go along with it? I wouldn't have! It's freakin' crazy! Seriously, the fact that it's not constantly brought up in conversation baffles me. Seriously...I mean, it's no wonder why the Bokkes were out so early last go 'round. CRAZY.

BokMagic
13-06-07, 04:09 PM
Kamp Staaldraad - One of the most f___ed up things I've ever, ever heard about. McDermot freaking committed suicide after the whole thing...Suicide over a rugby incident.
Why did any of the players go along with it? I wouldn't have! It's freakin' crazy! Seriously, the fact that it's not constantly brought up in conversation baffles me. Seriously...I mean, it's no wonder why the Bokkes were out so early last go 'round. CRAZY.
[/b]



The reason why it`s not brought up in conversation by us Saffas is because it`s too traumatic. Definately the lowest low-lite in SARU`s history. I only brought it up to give some clarity on our good friend Keo.

Scary thing is, then-SARU CEO, Rian Oberholzer, was not only perfectly aware of what was happening, he even signed it off. Idiot.

And well, if I was one of the players, I`d have also gone along with it. Bored security guards with LOADED AUTOMATIC FIREARMS tends to make everyone do things they normally won`t. And I`m not kidding- at one stage Joost was trying to leave with his teammates, and the guards fired off live ammo at them......

O'Rothlain
13-06-07, 09:42 PM
<div class='quotemain'> Kamp Staaldraad - One of the most f___ed up things I&#39;ve ever, ever heard about. McDermot freaking committed suicide after the whole thing...Suicide over a rugby incident.
Why did any of the players go along with it? I wouldn&#39;t have! It&#39;s freakin&#39; crazy! Seriously, the fact that it&#39;s not constantly brought up in conversation baffles me. Seriously...I mean, it&#39;s no wonder why the Bokkes were out so early last go &#39;round. CRAZY.
[/b]



The reason why it`s not brought up in conversation by us Saffas is because it`s too traumatic. Definately the lowest low-lite in SARU`s history. I only brought it up to give some clarity on our good friend Keo.

Scary thing is, then-SARU CEO, Rian Oberholzer, was not only perfectly aware of what was happening, he even signed it off. Idiot.

And well, if I was one of the players, I`d have also gone along with it. Bored security guards with LOADED AUTOMATIC FIREARMS tends to make everyone do things they normally won`t. And I`m not kidding- at one stage Joost was trying to leave with his teammates, and the guards fired off live ammo at them......

[/b][/quote]
They actually fired off at them? It&#39;s a wonder any of those guys still play rugby...it&#39;d give you some sort of shock or complex!
I have to say, one of the most messed up events in sport.

gjwoodq
17-06-07, 02:00 PM
Politics & Sports, never a good mix. Leave selection purely to those who deserve it regardless of the colour of their skin....end of story.

SPIDER18
20-06-07, 02:00 AM
yeah politics and rugby don&#39;t mix look at the luke watson saga as well.

Rockstar
03-08-07, 10:33 AM
If there was ever a SA team to win a World Cup..I would honestly have to say the team we have going to the World Cup is that team!

Butch James!!!

Commander Jaco
09-08-07, 11:55 AM
It makes me mad when I think of this, the whole SA government is contradicting them selves over and over , if they want no discriminations based on race then why do I ask ,why do they do these things, quota players Affirmative Action in workplaces all kinds of discrimination going on, this is not democracy it is a turned around apartheid

MerckZ
11-08-07, 09:41 AM
Transformation is such a disgusting word. It shouldn&#39;t be about transforming the team, it should be about inclusion - and that is clearly happening. Politics and sport are like Israelis and Palestinians, they don&#39;t mix. If the best players are white, select white players. If a good enough black player comes along, include him. If not, meh, the team is white.