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View Full Version : Heineken Cup proves it's grim down south - Justin Marshall



Captain Morgan
30-03-08, 03:04 PM
There's a lot of us about up here at the moment. By that I mean All Blacks, Wallabies, Springboks, all of us playing in the northern hemisphere. It has caused controversy back home and up here, but we're going to keep coming. And I can tell you one of the reasons we find the proposition so attractive. Money, the cynics will say - well, yes, it plays a part. But, as a rugby player, I would say the Heineken Cup.

The first thing I liked about it was the way the pools were just drawn. Who you got was purely down to luck, which offered a great deal of excitement and something different for the players. Which is why I am concerned about the recent announcement to introduce seeding. There hasn't really been any seeding at all so far - you could get anyone, anywhere. Now they want to rank all the teams according to merit, so that we have pools of equal strength across the board. It is a mistake and will take away a bit of the magic.

I loved that sheer excitement of finding out who you were going to get each year, and I think it is devaluing the pool stages to have all the teams streamed in order of quality. The Heineken Cup as it stands is not like a World Cup where it is just a question of getting out of your pool before concentrating on the knockouts; getting out of your pool in the Heineken is a massive battle in itself. You tinker with that at your peril.

The Heineken Cup is not meant to be a procession into the knockout stages for the strongest teams. The unpredictability of the pool stages is one of the tournament's greatest strengths. There were a lot of complaints this year about the pool of death with Munster, Wasps, Clermont Auvergne and Llanelli Scarlets, not surprisingly most of it from those within the group. But that was a cracking pool, and I watched it all, just as a fan, regardless of the fact that my team, the Ospreys, were in another.

Last year, at the other end of the scale, Northampton were in an easy pool and managed to get relegated from the Premiership and reach the semi-finals of the Heineken Cup. They beat Biarritz in their quarter-final in San SebastiŠn in front of 30,000, and they deserved it. Most of all, though, it was great drama, thrown up by the uncertainty of the draw. I say all of that despite the Ospreys being pipped to the quarter-finals as a best runner-up by Northampton, because they had racked up more tries in an easier pool.

This season we have made it to the knockouts, which is third time lucky for me, having been squeezed out not only last year, but two years ago with Leeds. The buzz of our quarter-final at Saracens next Sunday is something I cannot wait for, but we are there only as a best runner-up, so I still have not won a pool in this competition.

All of which puts the Super 14, the equivalent in the southern hemisphere, in the shade. This is a far superior competition - it is much tougher and it offers up the variety that is terribly missing in the Super 14. There, you have the same teams and the same players. One year you'll be playing at the Bulls and the next you'll have the Bulls at home, but that's about it as far as variety goes. If you play 10 years of that, as I did, it gets tedious. That was what pushed me away - I just got stale.

It is a serious problem for the southern-hemisphere teams, and it extends into the Tri-Nations, where the same players pull on different-coloured jerseys and do it all over again. That is why viewing figures and attendances are dropping - it is basically New Zealand, Australia and South Africa playing each other for six months of the year and, after a bucket-load of that, people are turning off their TVs. As a contrast, consider the reaction for the Lions tour to New Zealand three years ago - the entire country was abuzz a year before the Lions visited, not because they were so great but because they were something we had not seen for 12 years, something different.

Wales had just won a grand slam back then, and they have now won another, but for the Lions tour to South Africa next year there will surely be more Welshmen selected than there were by Sir Clive Woodward in 2005. I must just say, it has been great living these past few weeks in the country that is going to win the next World Cup! The place is on a real high. The Welsh do get emotional about their rugby, but this time there is a level-headedness to go with the excitement, and the sense that it is just the start. We at the Ospreys hope to continue the process next Sunday.

Justin Marshall is a former All Black who is in his third season of the Heineken Cup and plays scrum-half for the Ospreys[/b]

Source: http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/03/...its_grim_d.html (http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/03/30/heineken_cup_proves_its_grim_d.html)

Prestwick
30-03-08, 04:26 PM
Oooh my oooh my. Let us sit back and watch those New Zealand heads explode as they try and reconcile their inbred hatred of NH Club rugby with their love of an all time All Black legend.


Well he's not wrong but at the same time he's missed a few points on the Super 14, not to say that the HEC isn't as good but it isn't better and..and..AAARRRGH *head a'splode*[/b]

Captain Morgan
30-03-08, 06:53 PM
I did put this on the SH S14 board with a link to here, to save me entering the whole thing up again and to get one discussion going at a time involving SH Aand NH board users but it was removed. :(

RC
30-03-08, 07:45 PM
I like how frank Marshall is about the whole subject. Especially when he says it's basically like NZ, Aus and SA play each other for 6 months of the year. I've always thought that the players must find it tedious at times.

I'm gonna be biased when i say that the HEC is better, becuase i vest so much interest in the Ospreys and all the other Welsh regions and having the english, french and italian clubs here always adds that bit of spice to the season - and you can guarantee and increse in the numbers at the grounds for a HC tie.
Who wouldn't want to see your team playing against the likes of Leinster, Munster, Toulouse, Stade Francais, Biarritz, Leicester, Wasps...i mean, the list just goes in.
And then given the crown of Europe with a big cheque at the end is certainly a great incentive offering great bragging rights!
I wouldn't want the HEC to change at all.

As a sincere query, I wonder if the SH guys would like to see a change to their routined club fixtures - throw something different into the works than what they're getting at the moment.

Ripper
30-03-08, 10:45 PM
Oooh my oooh my. Let us sit back and watch those New Zealand heads explode as they try and reconcile their inbred hatred of NH Club rugby with their love of an all time All Black legend.


Well he's not wrong but at the same time he's missed a few points on the Super 14, not to say that the HEC isn't as good but it isn't better and..and..AAARRRGH *head a'splode*[/b] [/b]

I really fail too see how this proves anything? Michilak is currently waxing sweet lyrical love over the Super 14, maybe it's just a case of stroking the hand that is giving you that nice fat pay cheque?

Especially when you consider Marshall has had a vendetta against the NZRFU ever since he left seemingly because they didn't give him a parade through Christchurch and a big statue in Wellington, I don't really know why though, he was trash ever since the latter half of 2003 onwards and was lucky to play as much as he did. And lol at love of "All time All Black legend." Outside of the Red and Black hicks Marshall is hardly a favourite.

RC
30-03-08, 10:51 PM
Yet another constructive argument by Ripper.

Oh wait, no that's just him bitching again.

Ripper
30-03-08, 10:54 PM
Pathetic.

RC
30-03-08, 11:04 PM
I'm not even sure why I'm waiting for a constructive response from you...

Prestwick
30-03-08, 11:09 PM
RC, thats the only response he can come up with without sounding like he is either agreeing or disagreeing with the all black great. I think he means that the whole predicament that this whole thread has put him in is pathetic.

Ripper
30-03-08, 11:09 PM
I don't see how the first post wasn't constructive. Isn't it relevant to consider the possibilty that maybe Marshall, a guy who has a running vendetta against his old bosses because they didn't give him a big retirement send off when he left 4 games into a 12 test season is now bad mouthing their product?

And funnily enough, like I said, Michalak is going on about how great the Super 14 is, so what makes what Marshall say's (a guy who also want's to make scrums league style and have international games played only indoors - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtm...03/srjmar06.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2006/01/03/srjmar06.xml) ) gospel and definate proof that the HEC is the greatest thing since the 5 point try?


And I can tell you one of the reasons we find the proposition so attractive. Money, the cynics will say - well, yes, it plays a part. But, as a rugby player, I would say the Heineken Cup.[/b]

Must be why he signed for Leeds and then whored himself to the highest bidder when he abandoned ship. And correct me if i'm wrong, but he hasn't played a HEC in a couple of months right? So ever since than he's been playing Mangers League and that's it... hardly a diet of World Class competition.

woosaah
31-03-08, 01:34 AM
Ok, I am a Justin Marshall fan from way back and was sad to see him go, even though he wasnt at his best, when he went.

Though he does bring up an interesting point. The Super 14 is a bit stale and needs a revamp. Bringing in a pools comp and a knockout afterwards would be awesome for the game. Maybe even bringing in some of the NH teams for it as an addition to the Super 14 would be a good idea.

But also Ripper has his points as well, as much as i woudl hate to say it. this article does smell a bit of trying to talk up the game he is playing and trying to downplay the super 14 as well. Its all about him trying to tell you how excitied he is about playing in the HC more than anything else. and its good to see someone who has played rugby for as long as he has to be still enjoying it.

Ripper
31-03-08, 03:27 AM
RC, thats the only response he can come up with without sounding like he is either agreeing or disagreeing with the all black great. I think he means that the whole predicament that this whole thread has put him in is pathetic. [/b]

What are you talking about? I'm obviously flat out disagreeing with the so called "All Black Great" (Which he is not - All Black very good... yes... great... no - he wouldn't have even been a regular fixture in the side if Bachop hadn't gone to Japan after 95).

samb√£d5
31-03-08, 03:47 AM
im 100% with ripper on this one. ever since justin left for leeds, hes done nothing but bitch and moan about rival scrum halfs, all blacks, all black coaches, super 14, npc. the guys a joke. GET OVER IT!!!

imo there is 3 main reasons for players moving to europe (AND JAPAN DONT FORGET) is:
1)the lifestyle. look at reihana in particular. turning down a all blacks sport to come back. not just lifestyle, but younger players, like glen jackson go for the money. some players would simply rather have more money to provide for their family, guareenteed money, unlike being a professional rugby player in nz

2)OE. luke mcalister. troy flavel. sure they picked up some dosh and gained a bit of experiance, but change in pace, diffrent people. away from mum and dad for a year or two. sure you can say "err... world cup france, all black tours." but touring and living are 2 completely diffrent things.

3)retirement. yes the old "northern grandpa rugby" is a reality. unlike steriotypes of it being only old players (see points one and two) but more of a combination of the prior two. if you know you will not ever make the all blacks again (ala justin marshall, carlos spencer, paul tito) then, assuming that you dont have the responcibility of holding a team togeather (long serving naki lock tito would have been torn to leave) then why not go over seas to finnish your carrer? i would. its not a bad thing by any means.


and going on about repetitiveness - weve recently added 2 teams, force in particualar are incredibly good fun to watch. the cheifs of late are playing quite well. explosive plays by wellington. auckland and cantubury to continue to dominate? the npc has just been revamped, and will be again soon. but all in all, in traveling area of competitive teams, we ONLY HAVE NZ, OZ, SA. we cant have a 6 nations. simple. if we had a 6 nations of the same radius of the european one, we would have nz sa and oz beating tailand, vietnam and nambia by 100pts at least. yes you can argue that the financial bomb of island nations should be included. and argentina will be joining us over the next couple of years. but really, marshall, sit down. be quiet. your not the player you once were. you wont be missed. no-one is unexpendable.

candybum
31-03-08, 07:57 AM
Ripper and Sambad all made very good points and i am in agreement with them lol Justin did go sour when he was left at home during that end of year tour which Byron became no.1 half back.

Money makes you say things :P lol Its like real fat people losing all that weight and then becoming cocky then praising the product that got them there (like that homo from the bow flex infomercial, the "i dont see them with their shirts off on t.v" guy!).

Captain Morgan
31-03-08, 03:04 PM
Maybe Justin is bitter, but maybe the NH is catching up.

Incredible Schalk
31-03-08, 04:07 PM
Because they lure in big players from the SH with big pay cheques, guys like Jack,Marshall and Gear. Guys that are a bit past it but are still able to cut it in NH. However i would say there is no doubt the HC is a better competition mainly due to the uncertainty that firstly surrounds who will make the competition and secondly the draw for the group. The attacking rugby is much better in SH, but the HC is the better competition.

Steve-o
31-03-08, 04:45 PM
Those 2 minutes when the draws take place must the highlight of the season

RC
31-03-08, 08:51 PM
Sambad makes some really good points.

It's really interesting to know that the SH are content with their competitions, I adore watching my team play against the best Europe has to offer, but there is still the fact that all SH folks will have a strong interest with the SH teams and competitions. And if the competitions are ever-changing, as we are being told they are, then this can only serve as a refreshment and prove that SH competitions won't go stale.

Are most SH folk glad to see the emergence of Argentina, which consequently means that they'll probably be making an appearence and an addition to the tri nations. I mean, are the viewing figures really going down on these competitions? Will this be a welcome change to the Tri-Nations as it is right now?

Steve-o
31-03-08, 11:22 PM
South Africa has been Argentinas closest rugby allie for awhile now, and strengthening that relationship with the Pumas by including them in SANZAR comps would be wonderful.

However logistics are a worry though and they need to sort out their domestic league.

This is a bit off topic though and has been covered extensively in other threads already, namely the thread about the Pumas joining the Tri Nations (the title is named to that effect).

samb√£d5
31-03-08, 11:42 PM
the thing is with the domestic competitons is like what i said before. the hec has twice as many countrys, with going on 4 fold more population. to get the same amount of teams with (essencially the same amount of "uncertanty" to the game, then you would have to get the npc vs arc vs currie cup. simple fact is, who in their right mind would watch manawatu vs wollongong? no-one. super 14 optimises tv ratings, and theres simply is not enough rugby playing financially capable countrys in the area. you can go on until the cows come home about pools, or even doing what the nrl has and have a home and away game against each team but really, you have to accept wc year to be a low rating rugby year, because it starts in early feb, and continues until late november. people are sick of rugby. even i was. now i love it again.

and sure you can say that the competition is better in the north, the games are better in the south, but lets face it. the super 14 is far superior to the hec, and do you want me to bold it or make it text size 30435? GIVEN THE SITUATION THAT WE ARE IN. europe = more money more players, more teams. but clearly, given the resourses that they have, this shouldnt even be a topic. given the resorces that the north have, the hec should **** all over the super 14. but fact: it doesnt. fact: chances are alot of people will think the opposite.

Maccaweeny
01-04-08, 06:37 AM
who in their right mind would watch manawatu vs wollongong?
[/b]

Don't knock the gong mate! clearly it's the center of the earth.

samb√£d5
01-04-08, 07:16 AM
<div class='quotemain'>
who in their right mind would watch manawatu vs wollongong?
[/b]

Don&#39;t knock the gong mate! clearly it&#39;s the center of the earth. [/b][/quote]



exactly. imagine the media coverage of it now - CENTER EARTH VS MIDDLE EARTH!!!

Steve-o
01-04-08, 07:26 AM
:lol: LMAO

RC
01-04-08, 01:15 PM
...sure you can say that the competition is better in the north, the games are better in the south, but lets face it. the super 14 is far superior to the hec, and do you want me to bold it or make it text size 30435? GIVEN THE SITUATION THAT WE ARE IN. europe = more money more players, more teams. but clearly, given the resourses that they have, this shouldnt even be a topic. given the resorces that the north have, the hec should **** all over the super 14. but fact: it doesnt. fact: chances are alot of people will think the opposite. [/b]

Personally, i can&#39;t "face it". In my opinion the super 14 is by no means far superior to the HEC. We have some absolutely amazing games, with amazing history behind them. I can&#39;t sit down and watch a super 14 match very often becase there is no interest there for me. As a neutral i can enjoy some of the rugby on display, but i&#39;m clueless to a majority of the players.
You can moan all you want about resources but in regards to this we shouldn&#39;t need to say "given the situation we&#39;re in...we&#39;re better."
It&#39;s a comparison of the two competitions...not a comparison of the two competitions considering the situation you&#39;re in.
I don&#39;t really care what situation you&#39;re in, as far as i&#39;m concerned i will always see HEC as superior - no it doesn&#39;t **** all over super 14, of course not, becuase there are so many talented players down there - and it&#39;s not becuase we have more money, not because we have so many different countries providing so many different teams and players of different styles and abilities, but simply becuase i&#39;m biased. Like you&#39;re biased towards the super 14, i don&#39;t think you can objectively say which is the better and neither can i. But i sure as hell know which i prefer.
I know that with our clubs bringing some great players from the SH and with the great crop of players we have here makes me enjoy this; i know that with the money the competition offers everyone puts their heads down and plays like they haven&#39;t all season (see ospreys and munster); I know that with so much history and so much braggings rights that each game is a tense ride throughout; I know that to each fan - and probably players and clubs - this is the one competition you want to win the most.

Those are the reasons i enjoy the HEC and those are the reasons i believe that neither you or i can argue one competition over the other: we&#39;re too biased.

Jer1cho
01-04-08, 02:20 PM
If they had to combine both, and make a Super Heineken League, i reckon all 4 top teams in that competition would come from the Super 14. Nuf said.

An Tarbh
01-04-08, 02:47 PM
If they had to combine both, and make a Super Heineken League, i reckon all 4 top teams in that competition would come from the Super 14. Nuf said.
[/b]

Nuf said? Not really, make your case for your four teams then!

Jer1cho
01-04-08, 02:50 PM
Nuf said? Not really, make your case for your four teams then![/b]

When on form I reckon the Bulls can beat anyone.
CRUSADERS BLUES HURRICANES

That is all.

An Tarbh
01-04-08, 05:12 PM
well then if you&#39;re going to go on form then Leinster, Munster, Leicester, Wasps, Gloucester, Paris, Toulouse can all beat anyone.

Jer1cho
01-04-08, 05:15 PM
If you say so......

An Tarbh
01-04-08, 05:17 PM
If you say so......
[/b]

It&#39;s just so staggering the quality and substance of your argument, it&#39;s putting me to shame :rolleyes:

Jer1cho
01-04-08, 05:24 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
If you say so......
[/b]

It&#39;s just so staggering the quality and substance of your argument, it&#39;s putting me to shame :rolleyes:
[/b][/quote]

Not one team in that pisswilly league can beat the Crusaders, and you know it. The slow ass pace of that league is like soccer with an oval shaped ball. There is one exciting player there out of a million teams (Shane Williams btw) whereas the SH&#39;s style, flair and speed is just......better.

Steve-o
01-04-08, 05:27 PM
When on form I reckon the Bulls can beat anyone.
CRUSADERS BLUES HURRICANES
[/b]
Ahemm.. Aren&#39;t we forgeting someone? :blink:



When on form I reckon the Bulls can beat anyone.
CRUSADERS BLUES HURRICANES
[/b]
Ahemm.. Aren&#39;t we forgeting someone? :blink:

An Tarbh
01-04-08, 05:30 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
If you say so......
[/b]

It&#39;s just so staggering the quality and substance of your argument, it&#39;s putting me to shame :rolleyes:
[/b][/quote]

Not one team in that pisswilly league can beat the Crusaders, and you know it. The slow ass pace of that league is like soccer with an oval shaped ball. There is one exciting player there out of a million teams (Shane Williams btw) whereas the SH&#39;s style, flair and speed is just......better.
[/b][/quote]

Wow that showed me, one player and that&#39;s all we&#39;ve got and here was me thinking Dan Carter was the only decent player in Super 14 :rolleyes:

Jer1cho
01-04-08, 05:59 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
If you say so......
[/b]

It&#39;s just so staggering the quality and substance of your argument, it&#39;s putting me to shame :rolleyes:
[/b][/quote]

Not one team in that pisswilly league can beat the Crusaders, and you know it. The slow ass pace of that league is like soccer with an oval shaped ball. There is one exciting player there out of a million teams (Shane Williams btw) whereas the SH&#39;s style, flair and speed is just......better.
[/b][/quote]

Wow that showed me, one player and that&#39;s all we&#39;ve got and here was me thinking Dan Carter was the only decent player in Super 14 :rolleyes:
[/b][/quote]

Touche you Irish *******......Touche

SaintsFan_Webby
01-04-08, 06:13 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
If you say so......
[/b]

It&#39;s just so staggering the quality and substance of your argument, it&#39;s putting me to shame :rolleyes:
[/b][/quote]

Not one team in that pisswilly league can beat the Crusaders, and you know it. The slow ass pace of that league is like soccer with an oval shaped ball. There is one exciting player there out of a million teams (Shane Williams btw) whereas the SH&#39;s style, flair and speed is just......better. [/b][/quote]



Your argument has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. The fact you&#39;ve called the Heineken Cup "that league" makes it blindingly obvious than anything else you say on the matter should be disregarded as ignorant drivel.

Steve-o
01-04-08, 06:22 PM
IRB International Player Of Year:

2004 - Schalk Burger (RSA)
2005 - Dan Carter (NZ)
2006 - Richie McCaw (NZ)
2007 - Bryan Habana (RSA)

Jer1cho
01-04-08, 06:32 PM
Your argument has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. The fact you&#39;ve called the Heineken Cup "that league" makes it blindingly obvious than anything else you say on the matter should be disregarded as ignorant drivel.[/b]

Then you obviously didn&#39;t understand what the word was used for you bum. It emphasizes the inferiority of it...

Sir Speedy
01-04-08, 09:06 PM
Watching the Super 14 is like watching paint dry. I don&#39;t get all this hype surrounding it (Then again it is only from the Southern Hemisphere). But people talk about the Heineken Cup being boring, whereas the S14 bores the **** out of me. Bar the World Cup, there&#39;s not a more exciting rugby event than the Heineken Cup knockout stages, despite Llanelli being stuffed like the chickens they are, I can&#39;t effing wait for the quarter finals this weekend.
So you can stuff your so called "Super" 14, we&#39;ll take the great rugby and passion instead.

samb√£d5
01-04-08, 09:25 PM
rc, your posts is almost my exact point. after all the politics - it really does come down to the fact that im a blues supporter and from nz, so i have no intrest what so ever in hec, you however, as a opsreays supporter have no intrest in super 14. and thats fair enough. its when people like jerico go and say, that if they all played togeather the top 4 would be from the south. personally, i could guantee that the (and being a blues supporter it pains me to say this) that the crusaders would be the best. i also think that the blues and a south african team would also be up there in the top 4. but no way would all four be super 14 teams. then you get what is behind my last post, when you get mr speedy talking down the super 14. its more back play then foward play (please - dont start this pathetic argument) so we are expecting a diffrent style of play in the first place.


we&#39;re too biased.[/b]
thats it really. even from a outsider - someone from japan or usa etc, they still side with a team.

Thingimubob
01-04-08, 10:23 PM
3)retirement. yes the old "northern grandpa rugby" is a reality. unlike steriotypes of it being only old players (see points one and two) but more of a combination of the prior two. if you know you will not ever make the all blacks again (ala justin marshall, carlos spencer, paul tito) then, assuming that you dont have the responcibility of holding a team togeather (long serving naki lock tito would have been torn to leave) then why not go over seas to finnish your carrer? i would. its not a bad thing by any means.
[/b]

Just wondering, did Paul Tito ever get an All Black cap? I know he captained the NZ Maori, but they never actually mentioned if he got a full cap when he joined Cardiff Blues.

I can see what Marshall is saying, but he&#39;s Justin Marshall, he&#39;s bound to p*** somebody off when he talks about stuff to the media. Funny guy though, loved his inputs on ScrumV during the World Cup and Six Nations specials. But I agree with the fact that maybe the Super 14 can be a bit repetitive with the same teams playing each other, every season, with no other kind of tournament as well. While compared to the Ospreys for example, who play in the Magners League (which is a better tournament that people say), EDF Anglo-Welsh Cup and the Heineken Cup. But, to be honest the quality of the exciting rugby played in the Super 14 makes that irrelevant. They should add in an Argentinean club, when Argentina gets some sort of pro division going, and maybe like a composite Pacific Islands XV, so they can help develop the Argentinean and Pacific Islanders game, as well as adding in just that extra bit of new spice.

Ripper
01-04-08, 10:25 PM
Nah, Paul Tito never made it past NZ Maori level, with good reason as well.

Sir Speedy
01-04-08, 10:31 PM
Yeh, he only started playing well when he moved to a decent club. :)

Ripper
01-04-08, 10:32 PM
Yeah, washed up has beens and never beens from NZ have a habit of suddenly becoming good in the superior leagues of the North.

Captain Morgan
02-04-08, 12:24 AM
People can say one or the other is boring but it really comes don to style, style which is determined by conditions, perhaps that is also why certain NZ players do better in the NH than the SH.
It really does not matter if both respective camps are happy and the comps serve the purpose, obviously as the HEC continues and we catch up to the SH, it will have an impact.

candybum
02-04-08, 02:48 AM
Yeah, washed up has beens and never beens from NZ have a habit of suddenly becoming good in the superior leagues of the North. [/b]

Hmm that is very true :wacko:

Steve-o
02-04-08, 07:57 AM
People can say one or the other is boring but it really comes don to style, style which is determined by conditions, perhaps that is also why certain NZ players do better in the NH than the SH.

[/b]
You&#39;re right, conditions play a huge role in determining the quality of the rugby.

Like surfing conditions in southern Wales are crap, therefore their pro&#39;s surfing performances will be crap.
On the other hand, surfing conditions in Jeffery&#39;s Bay and Western Australia are ideal, therefore the quality of the performance will be higher. Therefore bettering the surfers skill set and general surfing quality.
Thanks Captain, makes alot of sense.

Imagine all the surfers in southern Wales claiming they&#39;re better than all the surfers in California. HA HA, madness!

Vambo
02-04-08, 08:44 AM
Personally I think both comps are great and I enjoy watching both :D

If anyone from the SH thinks however that the Crusaders or Bulls would just walk over the likes of Wasps, Munster, Toulouse, Leicester etc then they obviously haven&#39;t watched enough games from the HEC and would be in for quite a nasty shock.

The league format of the Super 14 to reach the semis allows for a certain leeway... that leeway isn&#39;t there in the HEC unless you&#39;re in a very easy pool but if you get drawn in a &#39;pool of death&#39; then the intensity is full on from start to finish and I&#39;m not convinced that the S14 teams would be all that prepared for what some of the NH teams bring to the table in &#39;must win&#39; games.

I&#39;m not in any way having a go at the S14 because it&#39;s a comp I love to watch and some of the rugby on show can be breathtaking at times but I do feel you guys are seriously underestimating the HEC.

BLR
02-04-08, 09:19 AM
If anyone from the SH thinks however that the Crusaders or Bulls would just walk over the likes of Wasps, Munster, Toulouse, Leicester etc then they obviously haven&#39;t watched enough games from the HEC and would be in for quite a nasty shock.
[/b]
Considering the Crusaders have made up a large amount of the AB team over the years...yes, I think it&#39;s appropriate...

Steve-o
02-04-08, 09:19 AM
Good points there Vambo but I&#39;m not sure what you mean about the leeway in the S14.
How does being forced to play every team be considered leeway?
The league format imo is a good way of making sure the best teams make it to the semis.
When you have pools and several knockout stages you have situations like England playing in the WC final.

nam97
02-04-08, 09:29 AM
RC, thats the only response he can come up with without sounding like he is either agreeing or disagreeing with the all black great. I think he means that the whole predicament that this whole thread has put him in is pathetic.
[/b]

LOL, All Black great. As ripper said, he is hardly a favourite outside Canterbury, but I can tell you now he is not very well liked here anyway. I can&#39;t stand the prick, never have.

And ripper&#39;s argument is bang on, I find it more amusing that the bulk of you Northerner&#39;s can never see past what any of us Southern folk have to say. Instead, you call ripper&#39;s post "bitching". Play a different tune maybe?

shiznit
02-04-08, 09:44 AM
meh... both competitions are terrible... i dont watch either anymore.... Rugby League for me these days....

i just cant get up for rugby union at the moment... maybe when the all blacks start up again ill get back into it...&#39;

im just rugbied out at the moment....

SaintsFan_Webby
02-04-08, 09:54 AM
<div class='quotemain'>Your argument has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. The fact you&#39;ve called the Heineken Cup "that league" makes it blindingly obvious than anything else you say on the matter should be disregarded as ignorant drivel.[/b]

Then you obviously didn&#39;t understand what the word was used for you bum. It emphasizes the inferiority of it... [/b][/quote]



1 - there were two words used.



2 - it isn&#39;t a league. It&#39;s a cup. Hence being called the Heineken CUP.



If you can&#39;t even understand the format of the competition what hope do you have of being to evaluate it objectively?

Vambo
02-04-08, 10:01 AM
Good points there Vambo but I&#39;m not sure what you mean about the leeway in the S14.
How does being forced to play every team be considered leeway?
The league format imo is a good way of making sure the best teams make it to the semis.
When you have pools and several knockout stages you have situations like England playing in the WC final.
[/b]


Hi Steve,

What I mean is that it&#39;s possible to lose a few games along the way and still make the semis... if you get drawn into a tough group in the HEC (ie this year Wasps, Munster & Clermont were all in the same pool and only Munster qualified for the knock out stages) every point is vital.
I actually disagree with Marshall and think that the HEC should be seeded but then again I also think that the Welsh and Irish teams &#39;qualify&#39; far too easily in the first place but that&#39;s another argument!

The greatest game of rugby union that I&#39;ve ever seen was an HEC game between Munster & Wasps.



<div class='quotemain'>
If anyone from the SH thinks however that the Crusaders or Bulls would just walk over the likes of Wasps, Munster, Toulouse, Leicester etc then they obviously haven&#39;t watched enough games from the HEC and would be in for quite a nasty shock.
[/b]
Considering the Crusaders have made up a large amount of the AB team over the years...yes, I think it&#39;s appropriate...
[/b][/quote]

Ah... but the AB&#39;s haven&#39;t won any knockout cup comps for a while have they?
Against a veteran cup team, used to the intensity of one off cup games I&#39;d personally be inclined to back a fair number of NH club teams against SH opposition.

Lets hope the mooted world club comp between the HEC & S14 winner comes off one day :)

RC
02-04-08, 10:12 AM
I find it more amusing that the bulk of you Northerner&#39;s can never see past what any of us Southern folk have to say. Instead, you call ripper&#39;s post "bitching". Play a different tune maybe? [/b]

Lol. That&#39;s how a bunch of us NH folk feel about you guys.

shiznit
02-04-08, 10:13 AM
Ah... but the AB&#39;s haven&#39;t won any knockout cup comps for a while have they?
Against a veteran cup team, used to the intensity of one off cup games I&#39;d personally be inclined to back a fair number of NH club teams against SH opposition.

Lets hope the mooted world club comp between the HEC & S14 winner comes off one day :) [/b]



in order to win the super 14 you need to win a knock out semi and a knock out final.



the crusaiders have won the super12/14 7 times and have been runners up on 2 occasions.



that means theve won 16 knock out cup games.... the buisness end of the competition is where the crusaiders step it up.....

Jer1cho
02-04-08, 10:25 AM
The rain in Spain?

Vambo
02-04-08, 10:31 AM
<div class='quotemain'>

Ah... but the AB&#39;s haven&#39;t won any knockout cup comps for a while have they?
Against a veteran cup team, used to the intensity of one off cup games I&#39;d personally be inclined to back a fair number of NH club teams against SH opposition.

Lets hope the mooted world club comp between the HEC & S14 winner comes off one day :) [/b]



in order to win the super 14 you need to win a knock out semi and a knock out final.



the crusaiders have won the super12/14 7 times and have been runners up on 2 occasions.



that means theve won 16 knock out cup games.... the buisness end of the competition is where the crusaiders step it up.....
[/b][/quote]

Good point. Well made :)

Those 16 games are over a lot of years though aren&#39;t they?

Steve-o
02-04-08, 11:07 AM
IRB International Player Of Year:

2004 - Schalk Burger (RSA)
2005 - Dan Carter (NZ)
2006 - Richie McCaw (NZ)
2007 - Bryan Habana (RSA)
[/b]
IRB International Team Of The Year:
2004 - South Africa
2005 - New Zealand
2006 - New Zealand
2007 - South Africa

Jer1cho
02-04-08, 11:10 AM
<div class='quotemain'>
IRB International Player Of Year:

2004 - Schalk Burger (RSA)
2005 - Dan Carter (NZ)
2006 - Richie McCaw (NZ)
2007 - Bryan Habana (RSA)
[/b]
IRB International Team Of The Year:
2004 - South Africa
2005 - New Zealand
2006 - New Zealand
2007 - South Africa
[/b][/quote]

You are the man. :cheers:

RC
02-04-08, 11:17 AM
Can&#39;t argue with those stats...altho it is veering slightly off topic.

Prestwick
02-04-08, 12:40 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
I find it more amusing that the bulk of you Northerner&#39;s can never see past what any of us Southern folk have to say. Instead, you call ripper&#39;s post "bitching". Play a different tune maybe? [/b]

Lol. That&#39;s how a bunch of us NH folk feel about you guys.
[/b][/quote]

Indeed, essentially the main lesson from most of these "NH club vs SH provincial" threads is:

NOBODY HAS A f***ING CLUE ABOUT WHAT ITS LIKE IN THE OTHER f***ING HEMISPHERE!

Which goes for both NH and SH posters.

Essentially, if someone wins the lottery on this board, they need to fund an interesting social experiment, namely: Teh Mite
RC
An Tarbh
For the Northern Hemisphere and: Ripper
Steve-o
SANZAR
For the Southern Hemisphere should, for a season, swap hemispheres. They will pick a top club of their choice, so for RC&#39;s example he might pick the Blue Bulls (or get a kicking from QKXV when he gets back) and Ripper may want to throw his lot in with Toulouse in France. Then, with season ticket in hand, they visit each of their league, domestic cup and super-national knockout competitions and write their thoughts in an IMPARTIAL AND OPEN MINDED WAY rather than using it as an opportunity to get drunk/be an ignorant sod/sneak into *insert nation here* as an illeigal immigrant on a tourist visa. As a finale, the respective trios would first go see their grand finals (HEC/Super 14 finals) and then meet at a neutral venue (I&#39;d pick Tokyo) to bicker and completely disagree on everything.

Maybe, as an added extra, tickets to Six Nations/Tri-Nations games would be tacked on.

So, if anyone wins the lottery, put this plan into action!

An Tarbh
02-04-08, 12:47 PM
<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'>
I find it more amusing that the bulk of you Northerner&#39;s can never see past what any of us Southern folk have to say. Instead, you call ripper&#39;s post "bitching". Play a different tune maybe? [/b]

Lol. That&#39;s how a bunch of us NH folk feel about you guys.
[/b][/quote]

Indeed, essentially the main lesson from most of these "NH club vs SH provincial" threads is:

NOBODY HAS A f***ING CLUE ABOUT WHAT ITS LIKE IN THE OTHER f***ING HEMISPHERE!

Which goes for both NH and SH posters.

Essentially, if someone wins the lottery on this board, they need to fund an interesting social experiment, namely: Teh Mite
RC
An Tarbh
For the Northern Hemisphere and: Ripper
Steve-o
SANZAR
For the Southern Hemisphere should, for a season, swap hemispheres. They will pick a top club of their choice, so for RC&#39;s example he might pick the Blue Bulls (or get a kicking from QKXV when he gets back) and Ripper may want to throw his lot in with Toulouse in France. Then, with season ticket in hand, they visit each of their league, domestic cup and super-national knockout competitions and write their thoughts in an IMPARTIAL AND OPEN MINDED WAY rather than using it as an opportunity to get drunk/be an ignorant sod/sneak into *insert nation here* as an illeigal immigrant on a tourist visa. As a finale, the respective trios would first go see their grand finals (HEC/Super 14 finals) and then meet at a neutral venue (I&#39;d pick Tokyo) to bicker and completely disagree on everything.

Maybe, as an added extra, tickets to Six Nations/Tri-Nations games would be tacked on.

So, if anyone wins the lottery, put this plan into action!
[/b][/quote]

I would be more than willing to take on such a task in the interest of impartiality, goes off to get a Euromillions ticket!

Prestwick
02-04-08, 12:59 PM
You can&#39;t be impartial An...

Jer1cho
02-04-08, 01:34 PM
I agree. no one knows the opposite hemisphere well enough. Might as well stick to the international scene then. So......in that case, SH WHOOPS YOUR ARSES!!!!!!!

BLR
02-04-08, 02:04 PM
Prestwick, I&#39;m coming to the UK end of the year to work etc., so I think we have a new series &#39;A Southerners view of the North&#39; or whatever. :D

Captain Morgan
02-04-08, 02:07 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
People can say one or the other is boring but it really comes don to style, style which is determined by conditions, perhaps that is also why certain NZ players do better in the NH than the SH.

[/b]
You&#39;re right, conditions play a huge role in determining the quality of the rugby.

Like surfing conditions in southern Wales are crap, therefore their pro&#39;s surfing performances will be crap.
On the other hand, surfing conditions in Jeffery&#39;s Bay and Western Australia are ideal, therefore the quality of the performance will be higher. Therefore bettering the surfers skill set and general surfing quality.
Thanks Captain, makes alot of sense.

Imagine all the surfers in southern Wales claiming they&#39;re better than all the surfers in California. HA HA, madness!
[/b][/quote]

Are you taking the ****?
I never said quality of rugby, I said style.
Surfing was not a good analogy, not that we need an analogy when the comparison is plain to see.. anyway, surfers do travel a lot and can base themselves out in areas for as long as they want, whole rugby structures cab not move of and set up abroad somewhere for a few years.
The arrogance of the SH can be backed up, but not as much as it used to be or will be in the future.
SH is an acronym for Southern Hemisphere, Southern Hubris more like.

Prestwick
02-04-08, 02:38 PM
Prestwick, I&#39;m coming to the UK end of the year to work etc., so I think we have a new series &#39;A Southerners view of the North&#39; or whatever. :D [/b]

I&#39;ll be sure to inform the Home Office so they can DENY your work visa :bana:

Either that or make sure that UK Immigration "lose" you in Heathrow T5&#39;s luggage system.

BLR
02-04-08, 02:51 PM
Either that or make sure that UK Immigration "lose" you in Heathrow T5&#39;s luggage system.
[/b]
Good thing I&#39;m coming into the UK through noble Scottish land then ;)

nam97
02-04-08, 02:56 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
I find it more amusing that the bulk of you Northerner&#39;s can never see past what any of us Southern folk have to say. Instead, you call ripper&#39;s post "bitching". Play a different tune maybe? [/b]

Lol. That&#39;s how a bunch of us NH folk feel about you guys.
[/b][/quote]

LOL. It&#39;s kind of pathetic how this whole "which hemisphere is better" started really. I honestly couldn&#39;t care and I never bring it up in discussion unless, it&#39;s being discussed. As it is in this case.

Most people who follow NH rugby only would say none of our S14 teams will do well in the knockout stages of a Heinekin Cup. But, how will your NH teams fair in a league such as the S14? Us from the SH would say.

That&#39;s what the pathetic thing is, they are different teams playing in COMPLETELY different tournaments. It&#39;s stupid to say which teams will and will not succeed in which competition.

Prestwick
02-04-08, 04:09 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
Either that or make sure that UK Immigration "lose" you in Heathrow T5&#39;s luggage system.
[/b]
Good thing I&#39;m coming into the UK through noble Scottish land then ;) [/b][/quote]

So you&#39;ll get run over by Glaswegian suicide bombers then...

KZNSharksFan
03-04-08, 09:02 AM
Firstly;

Justin Marshall=Prat

Secondly:

I think people are getting confused with this debate. Some are arguing that their teams are better, some are arguing that their competition is better.

Thirdly:

I think we can all agree that the Heineken Cup is a better tournament and most of us can agree that the super 14 franchises are better teams

samb√£d5
03-04-08, 01:23 PM
LOL. It&#39;s kind of pathetic how this whole "which hemisphere is better" started really. I honestly couldn&#39;t care and I never bring it up in discussion unless, it&#39;s being discussed. As it is in this case.
[/b]

with you on that one. to be quite honest - the whole hemisphere debate is among the 15yr olds among us. its a dead horse. leave it alone. but when its already got a reasonable, respectable topic going about it, then im happy to add my views - as i have. unbiasly as a southerner could. maybie we could merge this with the ps3 vs xbox 360 debate haha.



however - as sharksfan said - a teams vs competiton debate is very relevant and interesting. it could be talked about until the cows came home - because a good competition with bad teams is unequal to a bad competition with good teams, but a bad competition is also unequal to a good competition with bad teams, if that makes ANY sence after too many beers, too many jagers, and too many tequllias,

Sir Speedy
03-04-08, 01:53 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
LOL. It&#39;s kind of pathetic how this whole "which hemisphere is better" started really. I honestly couldn&#39;t care and I never bring it up in discussion unless, it&#39;s being discussed. As it is in this case.
[/b]
the whole hemisphere debate is among the 15yr olds among us.
[/b][/quote]
That better not mean me. :rahh:

gingergenius
03-04-08, 02:15 PM
I can see Justin Marshall&#39;s point.


BUT.

You have to question the opinion of someone who thinks Wales will win the next world cup.

dullonien
03-04-08, 03:20 PM
You have to question the opinion of someone who thinks Wales will win the next world cup. [/b]

Nah, he&#39;s just seen sense :P

Ripper
03-04-08, 09:25 PM
I can see Justin Marshall&#39;s point.


BUT.

You have to question the opinion of someone who thinks Wales will win the next world cup. [/b]

You need a reason to question anything that come&#39;s out of Justin Marshall&#39;s mouth?

danny
03-04-08, 09:59 PM
I really do think that this is becoming a discussion for 15year olds(my dads bigger than yours sort of thing) but I feel that It must be obvious to anyone to see that The SH has far superior international teams yet the NH has a more interesting and exciting premiere competition in the Heineken cup. Without being rude the super 14 is pretty dull especially with the new experimental laws and the way most of the sides play the same style of basketball(sorry rugby). But no-one can deny the strength, organisation and professionalism of the tri-nations. No NH team can go down south and be genuinely confident of winning a test series or even a game and that speaks volumes.

shtove
03-04-08, 10:09 PM
Marshall is one of the smartest players I&#39;ve seen. So I have to think again about the new seeding system for the HEC - it&#39;s all good for Munster (for now), but unpredictable cup competitions are the soul of rugby.



I can see Justin Marshall&#39;s point.


BUT.

You have to question the opinion of someone who thinks Wales will win the next world cup. [/b]
It&#39;s at least a good bet.

Steve-o
03-04-08, 10:26 PM
Without being rude the super 14 is pretty dull especially with the new experimental laws and the way most of the sides play the same style of basketball(sorry rugby).
[/b]
That proves Prestwick&#39;s point

shazbooger
04-04-08, 01:43 PM
I dont know. As apposed to contributing to the SH vs NH debate, which is totally feckin pointless, I&#39;d prefer to stick to the actual debating point. Unfortunaltely the main debating point being the HEC v&#39;s the S14 is also fecking pointless as they are two totally different competition types! One is a league, one is a cup. Its like comparing the Premier League to the Champions League.

The nature of a cup competition, especially the HEC, is that there is so much riding on each game. Even in the group stages its such a tight competition that every round offer&#39;s up a few must win matches. The S14, by its very nature cannot compare with the drama offered by the HEC, in the same way that the Magners League or the GP cant either compare with the HEC either.

On the other side, Marshall does have a point though. With the limited teams available in the S14, you simply dont have the market for a cup competition like the HEC, so NH rugby can offer something different. This aint because we are playing better rugby, are nicer people (we are), or have more money (screw you peasants!), its simply because we have three mature (ish) leagues to combine for the HEC, where you only have the one.

You cant dismiss Marshalls point, but at the same time, it doesnt mean NH rugby is better. It is just acknowleging that NH rugby can offer something that little bit different, and after playing the same league for 10 years, its good to change. Dont really see where the contraversy is coming from. All makes sense to me.

dullonien
04-04-08, 02:25 PM
Excellent post Logorrhea, agree with you 100%. The HC combines 4 leagues (don&#39;t forget the Italian league) into probably the toughest cup going (barring champions league). The S14 just can&#39;t be compared as it&#39;s a league like the Guiness, Magners or Top14.

danny
04-04-08, 08:24 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
Without being rude the super 14 is pretty dull especially with the new experimental laws and the way most of the sides play the same style of basketball(sorry rugby).
[/b]
That proves Prestwick&#39;s point
[/b][/quote]
I think you will find I have been watching SH rugby for a lot longer than you , I have also played during NH off season in New Zealand.So stop kissing up to Prestwick and have your own opinion.

Jer1cho
08-04-08, 07:37 AM
Isn&#39;t the Heineken Cup like a retirement village for the Super14&#39;s i cant keep up with the pace elite......? *Bar Mcalister*

Gay-Guy
08-04-08, 08:32 AM
I think eventually there is only ever one winner in any sport.....and that is MONEY.

Money is the final victor in sport. You just have to look at how world soccer (whoops i mean football) has evolved...Gridiron....Ice hockey etc. Eventually the best players will all follow the money...tradition can only be followed for a while. Rugby is lucky because before professionalism came in so late for it.



When the NH money outstripped the SH the NH attracted older SH players who were a bit past it. Then they attracted younger SH players who knew they would not really make it. Now they are starting to attract SH players who are still capable of making it. The future which has now started with players like Like MacAlister going up north is a future of current top shelf SH players going in their prime. when it is not a world cup year. Eventually it will be players who go DURING a RWC year and the SH nations will have to bend and still select them if they want to win the RWC.

You just have to look at soccer and see how talented players from poorer countries like Brazil play overseas. Eventually the most money will attract the best players together. Tradition and sacred objects like the All Black jersey can only hang onto players for so long before the money steals them away.

So with that in mind.....the NH comp with more money will eventually one day be THE competition.

Steve-o
08-04-08, 09:41 AM
I think you will find I have been watching SH rugby for a lot longer than you , I have also played during NH off season in New Zealand.So stop kissing up to Prestwick and have your own opinion.
[/b]
Gotta say, that&#39;s the most silly comments I&#39;ve seen on these forums.
Me, sucking up to Prestwick?! LMAO

Back to the rugby..
I think accusing 14 top flight teams in 3 different countries, with 3 very different rugby cultures of playing a simular style of rugby is pretty ignorant.

erwanseb
12-04-08, 04:31 PM
Justin Marshall colleague has more or less the same opinion.

Byron Kelleher (http://www.planet-rugby.com/Story/0,18259,3822_3393163,00.html)

But the last word went to Toulouse&#39;s livewire scrum-half, Byron Kelleher.

"For those back home who reckon that North Hemisphere rugby is a bit boring, think again," said the All Black in the aftermath of battle. Quite.

therock67
19-04-08, 08:10 PM
Interesting comments from Marshall. Even though the seeding system until now has been illogical it&#39;s made for a more interesting competition.