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stormmaster1
07-04-08, 05:27 AM
Will he or won't he take up the job? and who will he want to work with?



I reckon he will take up a position and the lengthy talks are simply establishing the details.

In terms of coaching setup i could see him with Catt (not Healey), Rowntree and a couple more. Couldn't see Ashton retaining his job under Johnno.

danny
07-04-08, 05:36 AM
I hope he has a hands on role otherwise it would be pointless.Also I would like to see Dallaglio involved.

nick_w
07-04-08, 11:01 PM
Can't see him and Ashton co-existing really, although I still think its on the cards so I'm expecting a bit of a backlash when it does on the backpages of the tabloids.

In a sense of it working I'm a little worried about it. Obviously Johnno is a brilliant leader, but has he got the necessary skills to do this job properly? I guess we'll know this when the spec for the job is eventually released later this week.

As for backroom staff, would love to see Rowntree play a role, as well as Back for the forwards. I'd like to see Healey as backs coach. I think he'd be very creative, was a jack-of-all-trades when he played so knows each position well and would bring a new cutting edge to England.

It's just whether or not everyone is going to be comfortable with the decision (I'm looking your way Mr. Ashton!!)

Canadian_Rugger
15-04-08, 10:57 PM
I don't see what the point of all this is really???? Is this just another plot to give someone a big fat paycheck because you have more coaches and people involved with the team then you know what to do with. I think half of England's problem is they have like 10 people in conflicting command position as in their chains criss-cross. Look at any other nation... ireland, france, wales, NZ, Australia... the coach is the central figure in the running of the team... in England u have everyone from Rob Andrew (asshole)... Francis Baron, Martin Johnson, Brian Ashton blahblahblah the list goes on involved with the "coaching"/"running" of this team its a flippin joke

Bullitt
15-04-08, 11:06 PM
Ah, but they're jobs for the boys. As Will Carling once said, the RFU committee are "57 varieties of old farts" who will do anything they can to keep their stranglehold on the upper echilons of the sport in England.

That's why the whold setup is in such disarray, why the club v country rows started and why fans are totally ****** off with Rugby England.

nick_w
15-04-08, 11:11 PM
I don't see what the point of all this is really???? Is this just another plot to give someone a big fat paycheck because you have more coaches and people involved with the team then you know what to do with. I think half of England's problem is they have like 10 people in conflicting command position as in their chains criss-cross. Look at any other nation... ireland, france, wales, NZ, Australia... the coach is the central figure in the running of the team... in England u have everyone from Rob Andrew (asshole)... Francis Baron, Martin Johnson, Brian Ashton blahblahblah the list goes on involved with the "coaching"/"running" of this team its a flippin joke
[/b]

Thing is, Aston has asked for a team manager, but not to take control of team affairs (i.e. where the problem really lies). He feels that because he isn't exactly media savvy, he can't pick a good team. To a certain point, too many cooks do spoil the broth, but I can only see Johnson's inclusion in the set up as a benefit rather than a hinderence.

At the end of the day, I do feel that the an overhaul would do English rugby good, but at the same time, this is simply an euphoric dream which is not likely to happen an time soon, so we'll have to make do with including someone who knows his rugby. Guess we find out in about 15 hours time. The tension is so unbearable, I might just fall asleep. ;)

Prestwick
16-04-08, 01:18 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_unio...ish/7349845.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/english/7349845.stm)

What a sad way for Brian to leave. Yes, we did want him to go but we never wanted anyone to be strung along for months and then told to bugger off, especially after being told that his job was secure.

He's been treated like some sort of lepper and the way that Andrew, Baron & co have snuck around behind his back (with even Johnson joining in by holding secret talks with Shaun Edwards) is simply cringeworthy. Absolutely cringeworthy.

If Andrew wanted a Sir Clive style set up, why didn't he ask for one in the gazillions of reviews he's done since the World Cup Final?

Wait, wait...I shouldn&#39;t have asked that. In a nation which spends over half a billion to winch some <strike>portacabins</strike> thinking pods into place to make a National Parliament, in a nation which can&#39;t even manage to switch on a baggage handling system properly, in a nation which still can&#39;t quite do allot of things, is this latest management fiasco really surprising?

Macsen
16-04-08, 01:23 PM
I&#39;m still convinced Wales and England&#39;s suits got mixed up after the World Cup. Probably got on the wrong plane. After a few afternoon drinks could they tell one rugby union headquarters from another?

nick_w
16-04-08, 02:13 PM
Completely agree with you Prestwick. The way Ashton has been treated is simply abysmal.

Whilst I did want to see him gone, the fact that Andrew said he had an opportunity to pick his own team manager, all the while rallying support behind Johnno, is nothing short of deceitful wickedness.

The RFU should be disgusted by it&#39;s behaviour, love him or hate him, Ashton&#39;s legacy will go down as taking an England team who were well short of the mark to a World Cup Final.

No doubt his dismissal will improve the team, and no doubt many people support it (including yours truly), but the way in which it has been taken care of can only be seen as shambolic.

Prestwick
16-04-08, 02:13 PM
*Francais Baron wakes up with a raging hangover in the WRU garden shed*

ooohh...f***! Not again!

Nidhogg
16-04-08, 04:34 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_unio...ish/7349845.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/english/7349845.stm)

A good move in my opinion. Not even judging Ashton&#39;s ability as a coach, it creates a far more professional structure. BA is touted by many as a great backs coach, but he seems to have been doing too much on his own. A manager that stands above his coaches can focus more on the selection and strategy, while he can have his coaches focus on specific back/forward/fitness theme&#39;s.

Now, the big question, is he up for it? Plenty of experience in leading and rugby, but has never trained or managed a side before. Is he up for it? And more interestingly, will he provide a radical new selection policy for england, or stick with Ashton&#39;s "evolution not revolution" policy?

SaintsFan_Webby
16-04-08, 04:43 PM
Well motivation certainly shouldn&#39;t be a problem any more.

Strange and questionnable as his appointment may seem, let&#39;s now focus on the man himself and not the manner the whole debacle has come about.

Will Greenwood believes Johnson to be one of the most tactically astute and open minded players he has worked with, and Will Greenwood knows his stuff. While he may not have previous management experience, Johnson knows rugby inside out. This job may be too much too soon, however I think he has the potential, character and nouse to become a coach of the highest calibre.

RC
16-04-08, 04:49 PM
Yikes, this is very much a sink or swim scenario.
I mean, Johnno having no previous coaching experience gets thrown into the deep end of international rugby and expected to deal with it.
I&#39;m sure he has confidence in himself and he may do a good job, but who will be in his coaching staff? Will he have someone to rely on, will there be a Shaun Edwards to His Gatland? A coach can only do so much without his choice of a staff behind him; will he choose who he gets, will he be stuck with the same ones there now, or will Mr. Andrew choose some new guys for him?

Nidhogg
16-04-08, 04:50 PM
Johnson wouldn&#39;t be the first ex-player/legend to become a good coach. Look at football, Johan Cruijff and Marco van Basten. Both became trainers (first director in Cruijff&#39;s case) of big clubs, and never looked back from their appointment. Van Basten only trained the Ajax youth before he took over the dutch national squad, and he holds the best ever win/loss record of any dutch national manager.

Like those two, Johnson has a huge presence on and off the field. He seems fairly intelligent, and "streetwise". He&#39;ll do the job.

Edit: (could a mod edit this into the OP?)

Strangely enough, the BBC changed their article. First it said Rowntree and co. would certainly remain as coaches, Johnson only looking for a backs coach to complement. Now, that part has disappeared. The earlier version also stated that Johnson would have total control over selection and coaching staff.

danny
16-04-08, 06:23 PM
Im really glad Ashton has got the boot as he hasnt come up with the results on the pitch, simple as that. Its got nothing to do with him as a person, its purely business. The way it has been handled is typical of the current (same for the last 100 years) RFU top brass.
I recently went on a stadium tour with my son to Twickenham and had to visit the RFU headquaters across the road. It just smacked of the old boys network, the way Francis Baron has his own parking space for his 250,000 Bentley. It was a way of saying We are in charge, its our sport! It just sent out all the wrong messages in my opinion. Rugby should be all about Rugby people and if you have people in charge of Englands affairs who are in it for the wrong reasons then no-one can be suprised when things are handled poorly.

Sir Speedy
16-04-08, 07:03 PM
Im really glad Ashton has got the boot as he hasnt come up with the results on the pitch
[/b]
Because a World Cup final is no longer a good result...
Seriously, what are you talking about? England had a poor Six Nations considering their World Cup but they still finished in their highest position since 2003. I think you&#39;re being a bit harsh on him, especially that you&#39;re glad he got the boot. I can&#39;t say I&#39;ve liked Ashton since his appointment; during every interview he always seems stuck-up. For example:
Interviewer: "So Brian, what do you think about the comments that you&#39;ll lose your job if you lose this game (against Ireland)".
Ashton: "What, I&#39;m not doing a good enough job am I?"
Still, the way this has been handled by the RFU is awful but I concede that it will be the right decision for England in the long term.

jeffb
16-04-08, 07:26 PM
Personnally think that Ashton, has been Shat on from a great height. Typical RFU old farts.

Bullitt
16-04-08, 07:29 PM
Typical RFU old farts.[/b]

57 varieties of.

jeffb
16-04-08, 07:31 PM
The Heinz Variety

danny
16-04-08, 07:48 PM
<div class='quotemain'>
Im really glad Ashton has got the boot as he hasnt come up with the results on the pitch
[/b]
Because a World Cup final is no longer a good result...
Seriously, what are you talking about? England had a poor Six Nations considering their World Cup but they still finished in their highest position since 2003. I think you&#39;re being a bit harsh on him, especially that you&#39;re glad he got the boot. I can&#39;t say I&#39;ve liked Ashton since his appointment; during every interview he always seems stuck-up. For example:
Interviewer: "So Brian, what do you think about the comments that you&#39;ll lose your job if you lose this game (against Ireland)".
Ashton: "What, I&#39;m not doing a good enough job am I?"
Still, the way this has been handled by the RFU is awful but I concede that it will be the right decision for England in the long term.
[/b][/quote]
Lets not beat around the bush Sir Speedy, England have been woefull during Astons reign. yes they reached the WC final but only after the senior players decided to rip up whatever gameplan Ashton had tried to put into action. 2nd in the 6 nations sounds ok but when you look at the performances you have to admit it was terrible apart from the Ireland game.As for Ashton being stuck up, you`re Welsh you think every English person is stuck up.

Sir Speedy
16-04-08, 08:32 PM
you`re Welsh you think every English person is stuck up.
[/b]
A common misconception, not all of us think you&#39;re stuck up.
Just like some Englishmen (although none on this forum) believe the Welsh are sheep-sh*****. Not all of us are that... :blink:

An Tarbh
16-04-08, 08:40 PM
So what are the possible legal ramifications of what&#39;s gone on, they were talking about lawyers today on Sky News and Setanta and there&#39;s a piece on the BBC with Brian Moore, so does Ashton have a case but more importantly is he likely to take an action against the RFU?

Bullitt
16-04-08, 08:41 PM
Just like some Englishmen (although none on this forum) believe the Welsh are sheep-sh*****. Not all of us are that... :blink: [/b]

RC is!

Sir Speedy
16-04-08, 08:44 PM
<div class='quotemain'>Just like some Englishmen (although none on this forum) believe the Welsh are sheep-sh*****. Not all of us are that... :blink: [/b]

RC is!
[/b][/quote]
I&#39;m disappointed...I waited a whole right minutes for that reply. :angry:

Dozzy_X
16-04-08, 09:10 PM
Johnson was always going to coach/manage England at some point. He was a great leader, something which will hopefully rub off onto the players HE chooses.

Bullitt
16-04-08, 09:13 PM
Johnson was always going to coach/manage England at some point. He was a great leader, something which will hopefully rub off onto the players HE chooses. [/b]

http://kaiser.dreamhost.com/OT_stuff/bwahaha.jpg

Ahem...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v317/puredynamite/robandrewcnt.jpg

RC
16-04-08, 09:18 PM
<div class='quotemain'>Just like some Englishmen (although none on this forum) believe the Welsh are sheep-sh*****. Not all of us are that... :blink: [/b]

RC is!
[/b][/quote]

Hey!!!

...no...no argument.

Sir Speedy
16-04-08, 09:24 PM
<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'>Just like some Englishmen (although none on this forum) believe the Welsh are sheep-sh*****. Not all of us are that... :blink: [/b]

RC is!
[/b][/quote]

Hey!!!

...no...no argument.
[/b][/quote]
http://www.blah3.com/images/articles/20070818124129676_1.jpg

dullonien
16-04-08, 10:08 PM
This is all a bit, well Welsh. As Macsen said earlier, I wouldn&#39;t have been surprised if the WRU did something like this, but this just comes across a bit crazy.

I don&#39;t despute Johnson&#39;s acheivments and leadership as a player, but being a coach is completely different, especially being a national coach. Gareth Jenkins demonstrated how wrong you can get it, even though he was Wales&#39; most successful regional coach. Johnson could turn out to be an excellent coach, but to be expected to supply that instantly, thats a different matter. Why not start at premiership level to get the hang of things, why did the RFU need him so badly, especially with the likes of Jake White standing around twiddling their thumbs, waiting for a call.

Madness, all madness I say. Wouldn&#39;t be atall surprised to see it all blow up in their faces.

Nidhogg
16-04-08, 10:16 PM
This is all a bit, well Welsh. As Macsen said earlier, I wouldn&#39;t have been surprised if the WRU did something like this, but this just comes across a bit crazy.

I don&#39;t despute Johnson&#39;s acheivments and leadership as a player, but being a coach is completely different, especially being a national coach. Gareth Jenkins demonstrated how wrong you can get it, even though he was Wales&#39; most successful regional coach. Johnson could turn out to be an excellent coach, but to be expected to supply that instantly, thats a different matter. Why not start at premiership level to get the hang of things, why did the RFU need him so badly, especially with the likes of Jake White standing around twiddling their thumbs, waiting for a call.

Madness, all madness I say. Wouldn&#39;t be atall surprised to see it all blow up in their faces.[/b]

Plenty others also showed it can be done, transforming from player into top manager/coach.

dullonien
16-04-08, 10:19 PM
Can&#39;t think of any successfull national rugby coach doing so myself. In the modern era that is.

Nidhogg
16-04-08, 10:57 PM
I don&#39;t know many rugby coaches, but I can point out several football coaches for you. Van Basten and Johan Cruijff to start off with.

Edit: Loffreda went straight into coaching after his playing carreer, he didn&#39;t do to shabby, though he might have had a coaching spell somewhere in argentina before he started managing the argentinian side, I don&#39;t know.

RC
16-04-08, 11:02 PM
Madness, all madness I say.[/b]

Madness?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d128/Vincent0895/SPARTA.jpg

Ripper
17-04-08, 02:47 AM
Can&#39;t think of any successfull national rugby coach doing so myself. In the modern era that is. [/b]



Warren Gatland possibly? He wasn&#39;t a great (at least at Test Level), but apparently he was always rated highly, he just had the sad misfortune of being born around the same time as Mr Indestructable.

Nidhogg
17-04-08, 11:13 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_unio...ish/7351920.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/english/7351920.stm)

An Tarbh
17-04-08, 11:51 AM
I would have thought he&#39;d bring in someone a bit more experienced given his lack of it at this level

Nidhogg
17-04-08, 11:56 AM
Indeed. Also, will players respect Catt as a coach when he&#39;s played with them just months earlier? Will that transition work out?

Macsen
17-04-08, 01:16 PM
They&#39;ve certainly made a cauliflower ear of things. Bad time for any change, let alone into the sizable hands of a player with no coaching experinence. I don&#39;t see England winning a match until Italy or Scotland in the 6 nations next year. :(

dullonien
17-04-08, 02:13 PM
My point was that very little coaches first gig is an international position. I know there has been a few in football as Nidhogg has pointed out (Mark Hughes coaching Wales also), but why test it out when there is a world cup winning coach by the name of Jake White available? Then to bring Catt in, this&#39;ll go pear shaped for the next year or so, might work itself out in the end, but will he have the time? If they only beat Scotland and Italy next year say, considering the way Ashton got treated, why would he be saved?

He&#39;s gonna have to learn very quickly, against arguably the best team in the world out in NZ! International coaches should already have proven themselves at club sides first, the same way players do!

Edit/ sorry, Catt hasn&#39;t been installed yet, my bad.

nick_w
17-04-08, 02:28 PM
I whole heartedly hope Catt does join this set up to be honest. In my opinion, Johnson is going to need help from people with some experience in coaching, something Catt has been doing rather well at London Irish (i.e. first HC Semis for the Exiles).

In regards to whether players will respect him with it being so close after playing with him, I understand he is held very highly by a number of the current England squad.

This can only be a positive bar one detail. The comments made in Catts book last year concerning Ashton are still rather strong in the memory. I could see an extension of this already disastrous PR situation simply because of the comments made by Catt last November.

peppers07
17-04-08, 03:40 PM
Its a huge risk to apoint Jhonson when he has no experience remember Staunton for irish Soccor they should have given him a post like assistant manager or something first to try him out

nick_w
18-04-08, 12:55 PM
Looks like Ashton is taking that academy position again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_unio...ish/7354477.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/english/7354477.stm)

A case of one step forward and two steps back me thinks. He has shown that given the setup of the England team he was put into, he can&#39;t handle it, but I still see him as one of the best backs coaches around. He should have gone back into doing that for an international side other than England. Or just taken a hiatus from rugby altogether and introduce himself to the Jake White club.

Canadian_Rugger
18-04-08, 03:07 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_unio...ish/7354477.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/english/7354477.stm)



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Ashton &#39;will take new RFU post&#39;
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44580000/jpg/_44580192_ashtonpa203.jpg Ashton is set to have a wide-ranging role with the RFU Academy



Brian Ashton will take up a new role as head coach of the National Academy, according to Rugby Football Union chief executive Francis Baron.

Ashton lost his job as England&#39;s head coach following the appointment of Martin Johnson as team manager.

But Baron said: "Brian has confirmed to me his interest in taking up the new position that we have offered him."

Baron admitted mistakes had been made in the process that led to Ashton&#39;s exit and Johnson&#39;s appointment.

News conference: RFU chief executive Francis Baron



"We accept in some respects that the RFU could have handled the process better and lessons have been learned," added Baron.

"However, I do not accept that Brian has not been properly dealt with overall."

It had been reported that Ashton was considering legal action against the RFU.

But elite performance director Rob Andrew said on Friday: "It has been a very difficult situation for him and me personally and professionally.

"We are working closely with Brian and we spoke this morning. He is very keen to continue work with the RFU and over the next few days and weeks we hope to sort that out.

Interview: England head coach Martin Johnson



"He did also say, contrary to reports, he will not be suing the RFU over this issue."

Andrew added that Johnson&#39;s new role had initially been considered a secondary position to Ashton&#39;s role as head coach.

"It came about from the World Cup review," added Andrew. "We said we would look at the role of team manager.

"Brian had a clear view of what the role should be, effectively a number two reporting to the coach.

"Over the last two or three months, we have spoken to six people about the role of team manager and then spoke to Martin after the Six Nations.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif606: DEBATE It would appear at the beckoning of the RFU, Johnson has stepped into the breach to save England - it&#39;s a big call (http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A34788856)
DJ

"Once we started discussing the role of team manager for Martin, it became clear what the role should be. It became clear it was a number one role and we wanted Martin in that role."

Ashton, 61, rejoined the England set-up in May 2006 as attack coach and succeeded Andy Robinson as head coach in December of the same year.

England reached the World Cup final in 2007 and Ashton, who has also coached Ireland and Bath, was reappointed on an "indefinite" contract last December, which RFU elite rugby director Rob Andrew indicated would run until 2011.

Ashton had made it clear that he would welcome the appointment of a team manager to take some of the administrative duties away from him but was keen to retain responsibility for all rugby-related issues, including selection and tactics.

And he was unwilling to continue in his role as head coach once it became clear it would be the number two position in the set-up.

But Andrew denied that Ashton had been left in the dark while the RFU decided on its new coaching structure.

"I was in touch with Brian all the way through this process," he said. "He knew when I was meeting Martin.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifIt has been very difficult and I have not felt comfortable with it at times
Martin Johnson on the circumstances of his appointment

"There came a point where the role of team manager as perceived by Brian was beginning to change but until negotiations of a very sensitive nature were finalised, it was very difficult to get to this outcome."

Johnson said that the circumstances of his appointment were far from ideal - and that he felt sympathy for Ashton.

"It has been very difficult and I have not felt comfortable with it at times," said the new England team manager.

"I am sure it has been a lot worse for Brian and I have sympathy for him. I intend to speak to him."

Baron added that the role Ashton has been offered will be wide ranging and ideally suited to his abilities.

"I very much believe Brian will remain a part of the team," added Baron.

"Brian is a highly-valued employee of the RFU. He remains under contract with us, that contract caters for Brian to be switched to alternative roles within the RFU.

"We have offered him the alternative position of head coach of the National Academy.

"This is a considerably wider role than Brian previously held in the National Academy. It covers the Saxons, the under-20s and the under-18s. "We believe Brian has an outstanding track record in developing young talent of the future. "We believe that this role is ideally suited to Brian&#39;s special skill set."

[/b]



LOL What a load of **** that is.... Ashton is definitely getting a fat paycheck to keep him quiet. I assume he will keep his existing salary maybe get a little bonus etc

therock67
19-04-08, 08:17 PM
Can&#39;t believe Ashton has accepted that job. Certainly getting his silence bought.

thepretender
21-04-08, 11:04 PM
there is some suggestion that despite Baron&#39;s assurance that Ashton was not seeking legal advice, that he has in fact consulted in regards to seeking compensation.

does sound alot like constructive dismissal to me.