Waikato v Tasman

[Amobokoboko]

Good game by both sides, from a Waikato perspective they should focus on finishing business. But a great start of the weekend.

[TRF_Cymro]

Waikato, I cannot believe you could not get that bonus point!

[Amobokoboko]

Yeah, exactly my point. But they took an important win

[Shaggy]

damn! ... The Mighty Makos aren't picking up too many victories. This game I haven't seen yet, but it seems that Stephen Donald had a good game for Waikato, and that there were no signs of the chest injury he had ... maybe he'll be in contention for the EOY AB tour

[Sam Owen]

Yeah good return for Donald, Im not a big fan of his but when he's good he's really good.

[smartcooky]

damn! ... The Mighty Makos aren't picking up too many victories. This game I haven't seen yet, but it seems that Stephen Donald had a good game for Waikato, and that there were no signs of the chest injury he had ... maybe he'll be in contention for the EOY AB tour


I doubt it. Too many have overtaken him in the race for the second #10 spot (Slade, Cruden, Delaney)

[Shaggy]

I doubt it. Too many have overtaken him in the race for the second #10 spot (Slade, Cruden, Delaney)

Yeah maybe you're right Cooky ... I'm not really a fan of Donald's ... just really repeating what I read, and trying to get feedback from those that saw the match

I guess i'd settle for solid rather than flashy for the second spot, and while I agree that Cruden needs more game time, i'd probably feel more comfortable with Slade or Delaney at the moment

... but then, what do I know ... fortunately the selectors know more than me ;)

[Larksea]

Donald didn't look like he's been out of rugby for ~3months

He looked like he had been hard out training in the gym for ~3 months

He surely jumped up the pecking order again, his punting was huge and he kicked 7 from 7 I like slade and Cruden, Very impressed with Slade in particular I've been wanting him to move to the highlanders for two years. But Neither of them are proven goal kickers. And Cruden i missing a fair bit of length of his punt.

Donald gets a lot of crap in NZ, he is more respected in AUS and SA than he is here, yes he has had a couple of average games for the AB's one being the 10-12 experiment game with carter that neither succeded or failed we still won and it was a messy game all round by both teams. People only remember that one bad dropped ball that was replayed in the NZ media over and over again and forget that he has also played a couple of match winning performances for the AB's, and he has come off the bench for the AB's a few times and played major rolls in "come from behind victories" against Australia.

With Carter people forget his rare bad performances, with donald only remember his rare bad performances.

[Muzzy]

I doubt it. Too many have overtaken him in the race for the second #10 spot (Slade, Cruden, Delaney)

idk i think Crudens poor game against australia might have put him out, and Delaney hasn't shown anything either, all he's had was one average game against Italy so he hasn't shown anything that puts him ahead of Donald. Slade is good but i think Donald is still better than both Cruden and Delaney at least. and Robbie Robinson has been a great first five for Southland too so who knows where Slade will be playing for the Highlanders, esp since Graham Henry has already said Robinson is about a year away from all black selection.

btw What do you guys think of Tokula's season for Waikato? do you think he should be ahead of Kahui now?

[ranger]

idk i think Crudens poor game against australia might have put him out, and Delaney hasn't shown anything either, all he's had was one average game against Italy so he hasn't shown anything that puts him ahead of Donald. Slade is good but i think Donald is still better than both Cruden and Delaney at least. and Robbie Robinson has been a great first five for Southland too so who knows where Slade will be playing for the Highlanders, esp since Graham Henry has already said Robinson is about a year away from all black selection.

btw What do you guys think of Tokula's season for Waikato? do you think he should be ahead of Kahui now?

I think thats unfair on Cruden, he has one poor game where his kicking let him down, but besides that he went alright. It wasn't his brightest moment but it also wasn't bad enough of a shocker to be dropped for that one performance. If Donald had been dropped the first time he had one bad game then he wouldn't have nearly as many caps to his name.. Also the fact that Delaney has only had one game shouldn't count against him, he deserves as much of an opportunity as Donald got.
Robinson will almost definitely be at fullback with Dagg gone, thats where he stood out for the NZ20s. Tokula has been great but is still quite a while away from toppling Kahui

[BjR]

Yeah Muzzy - Tokula should be ahead of Kahui now, but I think hes off to the Commenwealth Games for the Sevens next week along with Mikkleson and Messam.
Donald deserves another chance after the Tasman game, but Delany and Slade also looking good...

[ranger]

Yeah Muzzy - Tokula should be ahead of Kahui now, but I think hes off to the Commenwealth Games for the Sevens next week along with Mikkleson and Messam.
Donald deserves another chance after the Tasman game, but Delany and Slade also looking good...

Tokula over Kahui? come on.. if Kahui had been playing ITM cup instead of being an ALL BLACK (incase you forgot) then he would be tearing up even more than Tokula is

[TRF_Darwin]

Tokula over Kahui? come on.. if Kahui had been playing ITM cup instead of being an ALL BLACK (incase you forgot) then he would be tearing up even more than Tokula is

I have to agree with you. Kahui was very good for the AB's this year - if he hadn't been injured I expect he would have got a few more test caps from the bench. Though Tokula has played well in the NPC this year, he wouldn't be rated in the top 5 centres in the country. His form probably does warrants him being offered a Super 15 contract for next season though.....

[BjR]

yeah I guess Kahui never got the chances that Tokula got this year.

[TRF_Cymro]

Just forgot to add my 2 cents ... Donald seems to have discovered some form, never really been impressed with him for the All Blacks but the man is in some form so do you take him or take the young guns like Slade and co?

[TRF_Darwin]

Just forgot to add my 2 cents ... Donald seems to have discovered some form, never really been impressed with him for the All Blacks but the man is in some form so do you take him or take the young guns like Slade and co?

Donald does look good at lower levels, however he has generally struggled at test level. Some players seem to have so much time to do things - unfortunately Donald does not fall into this category. Because of this, when the pace of the game increases, he seems to struggle. Personally I wouldn't have him on the end-of-year tour (I'd take Slade), however the AB selectors do rate him highly, so I wouldn't be surprised to see him get back in the AB's at some stage.

[Invictus]

None of Donald's int performances have been worse than Cruden's.

[ranger]

None of Donald's int performances have been worse than Cruden's.

Yes, they clearly have.. I would say that pretty much every game he played in last years trinations was on the same level as Crudens performance.
As Darwin said, Donald is just so labored in his play. Some players like Dagg, Carter, and sometimes Cruden look like they have all the time in the world. Donald is the opposite. He doesn't get shown up for that much at super 14 or ITM level and can normally compensate with his raw strength, but he sure as hell got found out for it last year.

Cruden is a better prospect than Donald. Cruden had one off game with the boot, Donald had a string of off games with his general play.

[Larksea]

That's absolute bullcrap

Donald has like 19 test caps

yes he hasn't been perfect in all of them. The first french test wasn't great but the AB's forward pack got the snot kicked out of it all day and gave him utter crap service. First test against the Boks last year wasn't great. Next game though he played better, lost the game though but it was not to do with his performance at all. The other game that comes to mind was the Asian test where he played at 12 outside carter, it didn't quite come off though it was a messy game and no one looked good that day, it was an ugly game for most players.

People tend to forget that in those 19 test caps he's also played some match winning games. The reason he started at 12 in that Asian test was because he came off the bench and had an awesome game that turned a match against Australia in Brisbane just prior to that. Infact he's never had a bad game off the bench for the AB's, he's either come on and done his job well or exceled and helped turn the game in the AB's favour. Another game to pinpoint would be Vs. AUS in Auckland last year where he was surely man of the match. Kicked 6 goals and controled the game perfectly.

So really does 1 bad game a couple of average games and some good games and 3-4 very good performances in 19 tests make for a failed international player?

people seem to pass all the blame for the losses to the Boks last year on Donald even though the AB's lineout was a complete and total failure. And I put that down partly to the media who replayed one mistake of donalds where he dropped a high ball over and over again.

Something I'll also point out is that Donald has always played very well at home for the AB's. And it's worth pointing out that the World Cup next year is going to be at home...

No he's not the messiah and he's no Dan Carter (But who is other than Dan himself?). But he is a very good player in his own right and doesn't diserve the crap he gets on message boards.

[Shaggy]

That's absolute bullcrap

Donald has like 19 test caps

yes he hasn't been perfect in all of them. The first french test wasn't great but the AB's forward pack got the snot kicked out of it all day and gave him utter crap service. First test against the Boks last year wasn't great. Next game though he played better, lost the game though but it was not to do with his performance at all. The other game that comes to mind was the Asian test where he played at 12 outside carter, it didn't quite come off though it was a messy game and no one looked good that day, it was an ugly game for most players.

People tend to forget that in those 19 test caps he's also played some match winning games. The reason he started at 12 in that Asian test was because he came off the bench and had an awesome game that turned a match against Australia in Brisbane just prior to that. Infact he's never had a bad game off the bench for the AB's, he's either come on and done his job well or exceled and helped turn the game in the AB's favour. Another game to pinpoint would be Vs. AUS in Auckland last year where he was surely man of the match. Kicked 6 goals and controled the game perfectly.

So really does 1 bad game a couple of average games and some good games and 3-4 very good performances in 19 tests make for a failed international player?

people seem to pass all the blame for the losses to the Boks last year on Donald even though the AB's lineout was a complete and total failure. And I put that down partly to the media who replayed one mistake of donalds where he dropped a high ball over and over again.

Something I'll also point out is that Donald has always played very well at home for the AB's. And it's worth pointing out that the World Cup next year is going to be at home...

No he's not the messiah and he's no Dan Carter (But who is other than Dan himself?). But he is a very good player in his own right and doesn't diserve the crap he gets on message boards.

I'm sorry, i have to disagree ... Donald played at 2nd five and Nonu at centre in the Hamilton test last year against the Boks, and they both had bad games - in fact the back line didn't begin to function until Toeava came on as a replacement at centre ... Donald wasn't even getting the basics right ... I'm not sure how much more of a home game you can get for Donald than at Hamilton

[BjR]

I agree. Donald copps so much crap from the media- he's auctually played very well

[ranger]

That's absolute bullcrap

Donald has like 19 test caps

yes he hasn't been perfect in all of them. The first french test wasn't great but the AB's forward pack got the snot kicked out of it all day and gave him utter crap service. First test against the Boks last year wasn't great. Next game though he played better, lost the game though but it was not to do with his performance at all. The other game that comes to mind was the Asian test where he played at 12 outside carter, it didn't quite come off though it was a messy game and no one looked good that day, it was an ugly game for most players.

People tend to forget that in those 19 test caps he's also played some match winning games. The reason he started at 12 in that Asian test was because he came off the bench and had an awesome game that turned a match against Australia in Brisbane just prior to that. Infact he's never had a bad game off the bench for the AB's, he's either come on and done his job well or exceled and helped turn the game in the AB's favour. Another game to pinpoint would be Vs. AUS in Auckland last year where he was surely man of the match. Kicked 6 goals and controled the game perfectly.

So really does 1 bad game a couple of average games and some good games and 3-4 very good performances in 19 tests make for a failed international player?

people seem to pass all the blame for the losses to the Boks last year on Donald even though the AB's lineout was a complete and total failure. And I put that down partly to the media who replayed one mistake of donalds where he dropped a high ball over and over again.

Something I'll also point out is that Donald has always played very well at home for the AB's. And it's worth pointing out that the World Cup next year is going to be at home...

No he's not the messiah and he's no Dan Carter (But who is other than Dan himself?). But he is a very good player in his own right and doesn't diserve the crap he gets on message boards.

To condense my point down..

Donald has had 19 games, Cruden has had about 100 minutes.
If you can't write off Donald yet you sure as hell cant write off Cruden. Donald has had enough of a chance to stake his claim on the spot. He has had 19 chances, he has shown us everything he can do and where his limitations are at international level.
Now how about we give Cruden the same chances to see if he can offer something better?

Also, you say Donald wasn't that bad, and over all i would agree. But some plays he looked horrible, i have always thought that he is a 12 playing at 10, he just doesnt have the brain and instincts down to be a worldclass international 10. Crudens one opportunity was no worse than some of the games Donald has played in the past.

[Larksea]

I'm not comparing Donald to Cruden

I just think when people cast judgement on players like donald they need to look at the big picture, as I pointed out donald has 19 caps. Of those 19 in my opinion and I do think I'm a fair judge on it. He's only had 1 for sure and 3 at the most performances that I would say were not up to scratch. People tend to focus on those performances and forget that he's also had some game turning and match winning performances for the all blacks as well. And as I've also pointed out he's never had a bad game off the bench and he's never had a bad game in NZ.

he and Rokocoko copped the flack on message boards for the poor tri nations last year when it was clear and obvious to me that the lineout was the clear and obvious difference between the AB's and Springbok. The AB's IMO would have won the 2nd & 3rd springbok tests with a lineout that was up to standard.

Look around NZ rugby... Carter and Donald are the only two first 5's in NZ rugby that have proven long term track records at Super and international level. And they are the top two best punting & goal kicking 10's in NZ.

Delainy, Slade, Burquest, Repia, kirkpatrick, Brett & Cruden - none of them have even been able to take ownership of a super14 #10 jersey yet.

I honestly believe Donald has a role to play for the AB's yet, look at his form now, the skillset, experience and attributes he has makes him very important.

Next would have to be Slade im my book he will get a good run for the highlanders and he needs to prove he can kick for goal ~75%+

2011 just may be too early for cruden to get settled at international level. Considering he maybe hasn't finished getting up to super level, plus his goal & positional kicking isn't up to the mark and that should be the first thing he gets sorted. For sure he's got some spunk though and could be a real asset come 2015 RWC :)

[BjR]

Good point :)