Do you believe?

[St Helens RLFC]

This is a thread inspired by me getting the recent War of the Worlds on DVD.

Do you believe that something is out there? Do you believe that there are aliens? That there is extra terrestrial life?

If so, why? If not, why not?

With TRF Awards just around the corner, it would be well advised to only talk sense in this thread.

[sambãd5]

I think there is. I find it too hard to belive that we are the only ones out there. I mean, how boring is that? There is proof that on other planets that there has been, or is the right conditions to live human life etc, so why not?

Now heres a thought. You know how stars are actually suns, and if other planets are rotating around that sun, and if there were aliens on those planets... One night your looking at the stars, and what if those aliens were looking straight back at you http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif

Anyway, without any science or religious influences about the solar systems etc, I belive that we are too insignificant to be the only ones...

How ever - i dont belive that we are visited or watched by other aliens often. I would only say a handfull of times. I think if we have been visited, or have been under servalince, they would have done something by now.

We better talk quickly - before this thread gets closed by the FBI or X-Files...

[THE CHIROPRACTOR101]

aliens?...yeh they called illegal immigrants

[loratadine]

i do think there is something out there - our solar system is just one of millions and gazzilions of other galaxies so my question is what are the odds that we are the only planet with life

and by the way st.helens what did you think of war of the worlds - i had it for christmas and was very impressed.

[gjohn85]

Originally posted by loratadine@Jan 11 2006, 12:56 AM
and by the way st.helens what did you think of war of the worlds - i had it for christmas and was very impressed.
Very impressed??? Did u watch the film? I hate films where the lead role is super human that manages to duck & weave through impossible situations, LAME!

Good special effects though, but tooooo far fetched!

[kaftka]

I know there are aliens out there. I have met them. They were very nice, but seemed a little too obsessed with my posterior. They didn&#39;t seem to have mouths so I couldn&#39;t offer them anything to drink, but they did seem to communicate with noise from their foot region... Except, there were no feet really, just legs going down pushing into the floor. Almost suction-cup like. Tremendous balance. I took photos but my camera got confiscated by the authorities.

[Saint N Sinner]

Extra terrestrial life?

Sure, there must be something out there because all these story&#39;s and images don&#39;t just come out of no where do they?

One day aliens will invade the earth. I&#39;m not saying they will inherit the earth, probably just stopping for a guinness or something... http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif

[St Helens RLFC]

Originally posted by loratadine@Jan 11 2006, 12:56 AM
and by the way st.helens what did you think of war of the worlds - i had it for christmas and was very impressed.
I loved it I thought it was excellent.

[gjohn85]

Originally posted by St Helens RLFC+Jan 11 2006, 09:42 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (St Helens RLFC @ Jan 11 2006, 09:42 AM)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-loratadine@Jan 11 2006, 12:56 AM


and by the way st.helens what did you think of war of the worlds - i had it for christmas and was very impressed.
I loved it I thought it was excellent. [/b]
Did I watch the same film as u two??

[sanzar]

Originally posted by gjohn85+Jan 11 2006, 09:32 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gjohn85 @ Jan 11 2006, 09:32 AM)</div>

Originally posted by St Helens RLFC@Jan 11 2006, 09:42 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-loratadine@Jan 11 2006, 12:56 AM


and by the way st.helens what did you think of war of the worlds - i had it for christmas and was very impressed.
I loved it I thought it was excellent.
Did I watch the same film as u two?? [/b]
I think I saw the same film you did http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif .

[St Helens RLFC]

AH, but you couldn&#39;t go around liking it Sanzar, you can&#39;t fund that capitolist pig of a film industry, could you?! http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[woosaah]

i enjoyed the movie as well http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

also i think there has to be something out there, i mean we cant be the only living creatures in the universe right? the universe is huge and always expanding.

even if there isn&#39;t anything as intelligent as us, there has to be some other kind of intellegence, that might even give chiro a run for his money.

but i am sure there is more intellengt life out there, there just has to be, we can put people into space i am sure other civilizations can put their "people" into space and beyond (like other galaxys ans stuff)

i really havn&#39;t thought about it much though

[Dumbo]

All comes down to the definition of ‘life’.

There’s ‘life’ in volcanoes, there’s also life in freezing temperatures, also in places with no oxygen and sunlight.
I think there’s a lot of shit out there…

[kinkon89]

its kinda scary

[St Helens RLFC]

Originally posted by woosaah@Jan 12 2006, 11:51 AM
even if there isn&#39;t anything as intelligent as us, there has to be some other kind of intellegence,
This is it though - life in general exists out there, that&#39;s not far off acknowledged. What I want to know is this:

Are there minds supremely superior to ours out there?

[woosaah]

well if anyone knew that then we woudlnt be having this conversation http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

everyone wants to know that (that beleives there could be) we just need it confirmed, and would like it done soon.

i want to live like the guys in futerama http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[Saint N Sinner]

I call Bender!!!

[sambãd5]

extra-torestrial life: yes
























































http://www.operationsaveamerica.org/articles/articles/images/michael-jackson.jpg
intellegient life: no

[Saint N Sinner]

http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

I would of chosen Tony Blair instead of MJ.

[gjohn85]

Originally posted by St Helens RLFC@Jan 12 2006, 08:23 PM
Are there minds supremely superior to ours out there?
Yes he&#39;s called Chiro http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif

[kinkon89]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Are there ass kissers, superior to ours out there?[/b]

yes he&#39;s called gjohn85 http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Saint N Sinner]

He is called Jebus... http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[kaftka]

v_v

[..::ERIC::..]

Originally posted by Air Ben@Jan 13 2006, 10:40 PM
He is called Jebus... http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif
DIE

[wigan_rlfc]

We had a science teacher once who was convinced of life in outer-space that was much more intelligent to ourselves.

[St Helens RLFC]

Bump.

We have a lot of intelligent posters now, discuss away.

[melon]

In my opinion it would be downright naive to think we were the only living beings. As lots of the other guys have said, we are inside a solar system which is part of a mind boggling huge galaxy, which is part of a universe with a mind boggling number of other glaxaxies, which is part of mind numbingly huge numbers of universes (that last one is a bit iffy I guess).

I pose this question in purely scientific terms: how did life start? how did dinosaurs come about?
If you think about it, there is every chance that on countless of other inhabitable rocks life came about as well, whether it be in a different form or the same form. Evolution could be much different or evolution could possibly be the same. My money would simply be on that slightly different climates, geographic properties etc would make each inhabited rock&#39;s beings as being different (what we call extra-terrestrials/aliens). These beings could have a greater level of primitiveness about them or they could be technologically superior to us - who can definitely say we haven&#39;t been visited by other beings? who is to say they aren&#39;t watching us? But at the same time, who can say the contrary?

I could keep talking about this all day, but this is just a basic idea I have formed, and as I stated earlier, I am of the opinion that it would be naive to suggest we are the only living beings (whether they be stupid blob like things, or like us, or superior super beings)

[Hazey]

I think there must be, somewhere.



The quote that annoys me most about e.t. life is &#39;habitable worlds like earth around other stars&#39; - what is to say that other forms of alien life rely on the same things as we do to survive?

[O'Rothlain]

This is a thread inspired by me getting the recent War of the Worlds on DVD.

Do you believe that something is out there? Do you believe that there are aliens? That there is extra terrestrial life?

If so, why? If not, why not?

With TRF Awards just around the corner, it would be well advised to only talk sense in this thread. [/b]
No...I don&#39;t believe in E.T.
It&#39;s not in the Bible.
:D
Seriously.
:basint9pt:

[SaintsFan_Webby]

<div class='quotemain'> This is a thread inspired by me getting the recent War of the Worlds on DVD.

Do you believe that something is out there? Do you believe that there are aliens? That there is extra terrestrial life?

If so, why? If not, why not?

With TRF Awards just around the corner, it would be well advised to only talk sense in this thread. [/b]
No...I don&#39;t believe in E.T.
It&#39;s not in the Bible.
:D
Seriously.
:basint9pt:
[/b][/quote]



To my knowledge, the internet doesn&#39;t appear in the bible either. Are you telling us that doesn&#39;t exist?

[O'Rothlain]

To the best of my knowledge there is a difference between lifeform and human invention. Having said that, what is the internet?

[SaintsFan_Webby]

To the best of my knowledge there is a difference between lifeform and human invention. [/b]



Ah, but we have now reached the stage where humans are able to create life.



This is getting far too deep, I&#39;m not even going to start on the whole &#39;What is the internet?&#39; question.

[Bullitt]

&#39;What is the internet?&#39;[/b]

The relative importance of hear-say combined with the excitement of typing.

Alongside discussing the sexual techniques of another persons mother while looking for pictures of bunnies with pancakes on their heads.

[tituslechmakus]

I pose this question in purely scientific terms: how did life start? how did dinosaurs come about?
If you think about it, there is every chance that on countless of other inhabitable rocks life came about as well, whether it be in a different form or the same form. Evolution could be much different or evolution could possibly be the same. My money would simply be on that slightly different climates, geographic properties etc would make each inhabited rock&#39;s beings as being different (what we call extra-terrestrials/aliens)[/b]



in scientific terms, life comes out of the DNA ... composed of amino acids (sorry if the translation is not good but i&#39;m french and these words are ****** difficult to translate). Life on our planet (whatever the animal you study) is made of 20 different amino acids. water and oxygen are the 2 conditions for these acids to combine and mute to unicellular beings, who with smething like 2 billion years of evolution made the actual animals (yes i have to remember you that we are animals !!!). Few years ago scientist have found meteorites with amino acids on them .... and were very surprised to find about 30-35 different amino acids, including 15 that are not on our planet ... and the ones we&#39;ve got in our genes.

My question is, regarding to that, do you seriously think that these amino acids, on another planet with the same conditions as earth (water, oxygen and temperature), could not create life ??? see how big is our galaxy, how many planets could have the same conditions as us .... it makes too many posibilities for life to be only on our planet.



The question of intelligency is much more complicated ... needs few years of evolution ... and many other factor ... i couldn&#39;t say anything on that ....

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotemain'>
I pose this question in purely scientific terms: how did life start? how did dinosaurs come about?
If you think about it, there is every chance that on countless of other inhabitable rocks life came about as well, whether it be in a different form or the same form. Evolution could be much different or evolution could possibly be the same. My money would simply be on that slightly different climates, geographic properties etc would make each inhabited rock&#39;s beings as being different (what we call extra-terrestrials/aliens)[/b]



in scientific terms, life comes out of the DNA ... composed of amino acids (sorry if the translation is not good but i&#39;m french and these words are ****** difficult to translate). Life on our planet (whatever the animal you study) is made of 20 different amino acids. water and oxygen are the 2 conditions for these acids to combine and mute to unicellular beings, who with smething like 2 billion years of evolution made the actual animals (yes i have to remember you that we are animals !!!). Few years ago scientist have found meteorites with amino acids on them .... and were very surprised to find about 30-35 different amino acids, including 15 that are not on our planet ... and the ones we&#39;ve got in our genes.

My question is, regarding to that, do you seriously think that these amino acids, on another planet with the same conditions as earth (water, oxygen and temperature), could not create life ??? see how big is our galaxy, how many planets could have the same conditions as us .... it makes too many posibilities for life to be only on our planet.



The question of intelligency is much more complicated ... needs few years of evolution ... and many other factor ... i couldn&#39;t say anything on that .... [/b][/quote]
My only problem with that is that life does not come from a random assembly of amino acids. It takes very specific chains to create it. Our most brilliant scientists spend their lifetimes making tiny leaps into genetic manipulation. I have a very hard time with these ideas like the big bang. In my opinion it takes as much faith as I have in God to believe in something like that.

[tituslechmakus]

yep sure and no pb with what you belive in. science is my religion ....

life is not a random assembly as you said, its something like half a billion years of amino acids doing nothing but to do only a 1 cell being. then 2 billion years of evolution from these 1 cell being down to us.

And in christian religion, life is 4500 years ... make your choice and i&#39;ll respect it.
That is to say, if you belive in the scientist explaination, i think life exists on another planet.

[O'Rothlain]

yep sure and no pb with what you belive in. science is my religion ....

life is not a random assembly as you said, its something like half a billion years of amino acids doing nothing but to do only a 1 cell being. then 2 billion years of evolution from these 1 cell being down to us.

And in christian religion, life is 4500 years ... make your choice and i&#39;ll respect it.
That is to say, if you belive in the scientist explaination, i think life exists on another planet. [/b]
more like 6,000 to 8,000 years old.
however, there is no documentation of amino acids ever aligning themselves on their own without outside force. Amino acids are not life...they help to compose life, but so do electrons, of which are abundant in our universe. Let science be your religion, my friend, but do so knowing you met one person who told you otherwise.

[tituslechmakus]

yep no problem its your point of view and your right to have it. even if i disagree, i won&#39;t try to force you to my views.
and for your information (btw you were right), James Ussher in 1650 and 1654 published the chronology of earth, based on the Bible. The Earth was created at the begining of the night before sunday 23rd october 4004 BC. Next tuesday, the waters were together and the lands emerged, life appeared the thursday after. Noe went on his arch sunday december 7th 2349 BC and left it May 6th the year after.

Search for "Annales Veteris et Novi Testamenti" from James Ussher.

regarding to amino acids, they didn&#39;t go on their own to create life !!! its amino acids + water + oxygen + 0.5 billion years that made life begining !!! in my point of view :-)...
We both will have that doubt of which one of us is right till we reach the end. but i much more prefer your views on after death than mine ....

[O'Rothlain]

We both will have that doubt of which one of us is right till we reach the end. but i much more prefer your views on after death than mine .... [/b]
We can agree on that, at least. I will look up your man Ussher...
He&#39;s not this guy, is he?
http://entimg.msn.com/i/mu/u/usher/usher_300x298.jpg

[tituslechmakus]

<div class='quotemain'>
We both will have that doubt of which one of us is right till we reach the end. but i much more prefer your views on after death than mine .... [/b]
We can agree on that, at least. I will look up your man Ussher...
He&#39;s not this guy, is he?
http://entimg.msn.com/i/mu/u/usher/usher_300x298.jpg
[/b][/quote]



Hey might be that one, he looks like a XVII century scientist !!!! :wall:

[nolife1490]

I believe in ALLAH.

I&#39;m muslim.

Who&#39;s muslim here ? B)


Good night :cheers:

[tituslechmakus]

I believe in ALLAH.

I&#39;m muslim.

Who&#39;s muslim here ? B)


Good night :cheers: [/b]



And ?



Does it have anything to see with that topic ?

[woosaah]

I dont think he read the thread properly...

Anyway i beleive there has to be some kind of alien race out there, it would be stupid of me not to think that.

There are millions of different species on this planet, who is to say there isnt another planet full of life out there. Have they visited us thats another story, thinking of another life form making "space ships" and flying around either looking for life or looking to inhabit another planet wouldnt be too much of a stretch. Isnt that we are doing anyway?

[Bullitt]

I dont think he read the thread properly...
[/b]

More likely, he&#39;s a Rugby 08 spammer.

[Rugby_Cymru]

There are millions of different species on this planet, who is to say there isnt another planet full of life out there. Have they visited us thats another story, thinking of another life form making "space ships" and flying around either looking for life or looking to inhabit another planet wouldnt be too much of a stretch. Isnt that we are doing anyway? [/b]

I agree, you don&#39;t have to be that much more advanced that us to already have a space mission plan where you&#39;re looking for alternative inhabitations.
I can&#39;t help but believe that there is something out there.
I question how many people are telling the truth (knowingly or not) when they say they&#39;ve been abducted, but i believe that there have been some genuine sightings.

My question is: Do i believe Spielberg or all the other film makers (i.e. do the aliens have good or bad intentions)?

[RoyalBlueStuey]

<div class='quotemain'>
There are millions of different species on this planet, who is to say there isnt another planet full of life out there. Have they visited us thats another story, thinking of another life form making "space ships" and flying around either looking for life or looking to inhabit another planet wouldnt be too much of a stretch. Isnt that we are doing anyway? [/b]

I agree, you don&#39;t have to be that much more advanced that us to already have a space mission plan where you&#39;re looking for alternative inhabitations.
I can&#39;t help but believe that there is something out there.
I question how many people are telling the truth (knowingly or not) when they say they&#39;ve been abducted, but i believe that there have been some genuine sightings.

My question is: Do i believe Spielberg or all the other film makers (i.e. do the aliens have good or bad intentions)?
[/b][/quote]

I am sure that there is life on other worlds...it&#39;d be too bonkers if this was the only one in the trillions of billions of stars with a planet with life on it.

I don&#39;t know if interstellar travel will ever be feasible in any form other than huge generational colony ships...the distances are just too huge.

SB

[Rugby_Cymru]

I don&#39;t know if interstellar travel will ever be feasible in any form other than huge generational colony ships...the distances are just too huge.

SB
[/b]

That, my friend, is the short sighted view a lot of people have these days.
If you could go back in time and ask someone from 100 years ago if they think it would be feasible to leave the country and arrive on the other side of the world on the same day, i&#39;m sure they&#39;d say no. But we&#39;ve come on in leaps and bounds.
What about what Stephen Hawking proposes, with worm-holes and all that malarky. What about ships that can travel at the speed of light.

It all sounds really far fetched, but i&#39;d love to believe this is possible and if we don&#39;t seriously f*** each other up with wars etc. then i believe we (as humans) have the potential to achieve such things as interstellar travel.

[tituslechmakus]

<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'>
There are millions of different species on this planet, who is to say there isnt another planet full of life out there. Have they visited us thats another story, thinking of another life form making "space ships" and flying around either looking for life or looking to inhabit another planet wouldnt be too much of a stretch. Isnt that we are doing anyway? [/b]

I agree, you don&#39;t have to be that much more advanced that us to already have a space mission plan where you&#39;re looking for alternative inhabitations.
I can&#39;t help but believe that there is something out there.
I question how many people are telling the truth (knowingly or not) when they say they&#39;ve been abducted, but i believe that there have been some genuine sightings.

My question is: Do i believe Spielberg or all the other film makers (i.e. do the aliens have good or bad intentions)?
[/b][/quote]

I am sure that there is life on other worlds...it&#39;d be too bonkers if this was the only one in the trillions of billions of stars with a planet with life on it.

I don&#39;t know if interstellar travel will ever be feasible in any form other than huge generational colony ships...the distances are just too huge.

SB
[/b][/quote]



no they are not in some theories ... interstellar travel as the "Star Wars " films is a possible kind of travel. others think that its possible to curve the universe to make two points, that are far away, touching themselves ... i don&#39;t remember exactly but these theories are linked with the black holes.

perhaps as cymru said, in the next 100 year they will have found a propell way good enough for big flights. taking off from the moon is btw a very good start to space conquest. our only limit is our mind and dreams ...

[melon]

I prefer the throw-magic-dust-in-fire method of traveling long distances in short amounts of time.

[Rugby_Cymru]

no they are not in some theories ... interstellar travel as the "Star Wars " films is a possible kind of travel. others think that its possible to curve the universe to make two points, that are far away, touching themselves ... i don&#39;t remember exactly but these theories are linked with the black holes.

[/b]

Yeha, that&#39;s what stephen hawking proposes.
That the universe isn&#39;t infact one, big, long, flat expanse - rather it is curved
http://www.zamandayolculuk.com/cetinbal/KO/MAGE32AX.GIF


The proposition is that we could be at the top of that image and a destination (say 100 million light years away) is at the bottom. Without generational colony spaceships, it would be hard for us to conieve there ever being a way for us to reach it.
But with a wormhole it can allow us to reach that point in a fraction of the time.

[RoyalBlueStuey]

Yeha, that&#39;s what stephen hawking proposes.
That the universe isn&#39;t infact one, big, long, flat expanse - rather it is curved

The proposition is that we could be at the top of that image and a destination (say 100 million light years away) is at the bottom. Without generational colony spaceships, it would be hard for us to conieve there ever being a way for us to reach it.
But with a wormhole it can allow us to reach that point in a fraction of the time.
[/b]

Yeah but that theory is just *adopts a fake Stephen Hawkins voice* a big pile of bollocks

The universe quite obviously doesn&#39;t randomly curve back on itself....of this I am 100% sure.

[tituslechmakus]

<div class='quotemain'>

Yeha, that&#39;s what stephen hawking proposes.
That the universe isn&#39;t infact one, big, long, flat expanse - rather it is curved

The proposition is that we could be at the top of that image and a destination (say 100 million light years away) is at the bottom. Without generational colony spaceships, it would be hard for us to conieve there ever being a way for us to reach it.
But with a wormhole it can allow us to reach that point in a fraction of the time.
[/b]

Yeah but that theory is just *adopts a fake Stephen Hawkins voice* a big pile of bollocks

The universe quite obviously doesn&#39;t randomly curve back on itself....of this I am 100% sure.
[/b][/quote]



yeah i saw something on that sayin that the weight of the material in our universe is too small. the gravity force is not logical. in fact they&#39;ve done researches on that fact and realised that there was something (they called it black material) that had weight but no atoms ... the material is 5% of the requested total to mainain gravity as it is. the black material is 22% and the other missing is what they call black energy. its in fact the acceleration of the universe expansion that produces it.



weird theory but a lot of scientists adher to it.



so having found this kind of things i&#39;m almost convinced that by 100 years they will hav found something to travel quick in space

[Rugby_Cymru]

<div class='quotemain'>

Yeha, that&#39;s what stephen hawking proposes.
That the universe isn&#39;t infact one, big, long, flat expanse - rather it is curved

The proposition is that we could be at the top of that image and a destination (say 100 million light years away) is at the bottom. Without generational colony spaceships, it would be hard for us to conieve there ever being a way for us to reach it.
But with a wormhole it can allow us to reach that point in a fraction of the time.
[/b]

Yeah but that theory is just *adopts a fake Stephen Hawkins voice* a big pile of bollocks

The universe quite obviously doesn&#39;t randomly curve back on itself....of this I am 100% sure.
[/b][/quote]

I&#39;m not entirely sure anyone can claim that.
Who&#39;s to say it&#39;s a random curve?

Come on, mate, your post was a little too vague. Explain yourself, please.

[RoyalBlueStuey]

I&#39;m not entirely sure anyone can claim that.
Who&#39;s to say it&#39;s a random curve?

Come on, mate, your post was a little too vague. Explain yourself, please.
[/b]

It doesn&#39;t curve back on itself....it just doesn&#39;t. How could it? How could that possibly work? I can&#39;t prove a negative but I&#39;ll put my money where my mouth is. I bet you a pound that Hawkins is wrong on this one.

The shortest route between two points is in a straight line. Here&#39;s my proof :

A -------------------------------------------------------------------- B

You owe me a pound.

[Rugby_Cymru]

I honestly don&#39;t see how you just proved me wrong and yourself right with that post.
Yes, i agree that the shortest point from A to B would be a straight line.

What&#39;s that got to do with the curvature of the universe?
Again, don&#39;t get bitchy with me, i&#39;m just saying there&#39;s every possibility.

You see, right now i regard myself as the few who believed the world was round, and you as the masses who believed it was flat all those years ago.
Back then there was no photographic evidence to prove either right, but you can&#39;t just blindly disregard the other opinion.

Apologies if you actually made a valid point in your last post, i just couldn&#39;t see the relevance of betting a pound with me regarding quickest routes and the possibility of there being a curvature in the universe.

[shtove]

Nobody ever believed the world was flat - that myth was cooked up 150 years ago by an American journalist (the guy who wrote the Legend of Sleepy Hollow) as a protestant propaganda piece to show that the ways of the Old World were inferior to the new sparkly progress of the New World.

Maybe there is life beyond this world. Who cares? The only life that matters is this one - here and now.

Belief in the existence of extra-terrestrials comes from the need to believe.

[Rugby_Cymru]

Maybe there is life beyond this world. Who cares?
[/b]

I do.

[melon]

<div class='quotemain'>
Maybe there is life beyond this world. Who cares?
[/b]

I do.
[/b][/quote]
Me too

[shtove]

Why?

[Rugby_Cymru]

Becuase it fulfills your fantasies. It will prove to me that there isn&#39;t a God and that we are not the only creatures around. We can&#39;t be a coincidence (i just just can&#39;t believe that fact) there has to be more like it out there and of a totally different kind.
I&#39;m curious to see what it&#39;s like. How primitive or advanced they are.

I&#39;m just really curious - and you should care about all living things; regardless of where they are from and regardless of whether we know for sure that they exist or not.

[St Helens RLFC]

Maybe there is life beyond this world. Who cares? [/b]



me as well.



Bit of a silly thing to say, really.

[RoyalBlueStuey]

I honestly don&#39;t see how you just proved me wrong and yourself right with that post.
Yes, i agree that the shortest point from A to B would be a straight line.

What&#39;s that got to do with the curvature of the universe?
Again, don&#39;t get bitchy with me, i&#39;m just saying there&#39;s every possibility.

You see, right now i regard myself as the few who believed the world was round, and you as the masses who believed it was flat all those years ago.
Back then there was no photographic evidence to prove either right, but you can&#39;t just blindly disregard the other opinion.

Apologies if you actually made a valid point in your last post, i just couldn&#39;t see the relevance of betting a pound with me regarding quickest routes and the possibility of there being a curvature in the universe.
[/b]

Dude, I&#39;m not getting bitchy with ya....I&#39;m just being a bit sarcastic. There is no way the universe is curved.......It&#39;s just some preposterous theoretical construct. If I am looking at the other side of the room it is just impossible that reality is bent double so that it&#39;s possible for me to get to the other part of the room by cutting the corner....there just isn&#39;t any corner to cut. It&#39;s just can&#39;t work like that.

[melon]

There is no way the universe is curved.......It&#39;s just some preposterous theoretical construct. If I am looking at the other side of the room it is just impossible that reality is bent double so that it&#39;s possible for me to get to the other part of the room by cutting the corner....there just isn&#39;t any corner to cut. It&#39;s just can&#39;t work like that.
[/b]
Well I&#39;m sorry RBS, but it [b][i]Who are you to say the Universe doesn&#39;t curve?

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotemain'>

I&#39;m not entirely sure anyone can claim that.
Who&#39;s to say it&#39;s a random curve?

Come on, mate, your post was a little too vague. Explain yourself, please.
[/b]

It doesn&#39;t curve back on itself....it just doesn&#39;t. How could it? How could that possibly work? I can&#39;t prove a negative but I&#39;ll put my money where my mouth is. I bet you a pound that Hawkins is wrong on this one.

The shortest route between two points is in a straight line. Here&#39;s my proof :

A -------------------------------------------------------------------- B

You owe me a pound.
[/b][/quote]
<div class='quotemain'>
There is no way the universe is curved.......It&#39;s just some preposterous theoretical construct. If I am looking at the other side of the room it is just impossible that reality is bent double so that it&#39;s possible for me to get to the other part of the room by cutting the corner....there just isn&#39;t any corner to cut. It&#39;s just can&#39;t work like that.
[/b]
Well I&#39;m sorry RBS, but it [i]>http://filer.case.edu/sjr16/media/stars_blackhole_anatomy.jpg

[RoyalBlueStuey]

Think about this: If i&#39;m on one side of the world (which is a sphere), and you are on the complete opposite side, it would be a shorter distance in a straight line (straight through the earth) than to walk in a curved nature (around the earth). If we wanted to get to one another we&#39;d obviously walked around the earth which to us is seemingly in a straight line without any curvature at all. It&#39;s all about perspective. We don&#39;t feel it, we just know it&#39;s there. If we are a bloody sphere, then why can&#39;t the universe be of the same nature? We could just keep going straight in a space ship and end up back at earth.

There are so many arguments to be made, and I pose my original question: Who are you to say the Universe doesn&#39;t curve?
[/b]

I&#39;ve looked at it thought about it and I&#39;ve concluded that it is not curved. It&#39;s just not. You example about going through the middle of the earth doesn&#39;t hold. The universe has length breadth and depth...it is a fundamental. For you to call me to prove that there isn&#39;t little pixie burrows that somehow just take you through to the other end of reality is just crazy.

PS I think we all should be reading this thread in a Steven Hawkins voice.

[Rugby_Cymru]

Oh, come on.
This discussion clearly isn&#39;t going anywhere when you belittle our points of view like so: -


For you to call me to prove that there isn&#39;t little pixie burrows that somehow just take you through to the other end of reality is just crazy.
[/b]

We&#39;re putting across a hypothetical possibility and we accept that it may or may not be true, but where are we getting when you simply reply:


I&#39;ve looked at it thought about it and I&#39;ve concluded that it is not curved. It&#39;s just not. [/b]

I&#39;m more than happy to accept your argument if you weren&#39;t so closed minded in regards to our point of view. But that just doens&#39;t seem to be the case.

[RoyalBlueStuey]

Oh, come on.
This discussion clearly isn&#39;t going anywhere when you belittle our points of view like so: -

<div class='quotemain'>For you to call me to prove that there isn&#39;t little pixie burrows that somehow just take you through to the other end of reality is just crazy.
[/b]

We&#39;re putting across a hypothetical possibility and we accept that it may or may not be true, but where are we getting when you simply reply:


I&#39;ve looked at it thought about it and I&#39;ve concluded that it is not curved. It&#39;s just not. [/b]

I&#39;m more than happy to accept your argument if you weren&#39;t so closed minded in regards to our point of view. But that just doens&#39;t seem to be the case.
[/b][/quote]

I&#39;m really not being obtuse here...I have just rejected the theory of curved space wormhole. I&#39;m being dogmatic, but not close minded.

[O'Rothlain]

What evidence is there for a curved space? This is my question..."Outside of a dude who thinks he&#39;s brilliant in a wheelchair, what evidence is there for a curved space?"
I watched an interesting program on the Discovery Chanel called "How William Shatner Changed The World." It was really more of how Star Trek has influenced popular invention, from your mobile phone to space travel. Is it possible that people take this thing science fiction too far? I mean, we&#39;ve all seen pictures of dorks dressed up as Klingons (and so help me God, if you are one, and you fire back to defend yourself, I will buy a f___ing airplane ticket and fly to your country take a cab to your home, ring your doorbell and pimpslap you...just stay in the closet) and you have to know that you&#39;re probably seeing the guys that run microsoft and apple. All this is to say, I DON"T BELIEVE IN F___ING WORMHOLES AND CURVED SPACE. If you told me one day we could fly using rocket packs I&#39;d believe you...why, because the science lines up with scientific law.

Back to the original question, No, I don&#39;t believe in alien life form. I think it&#39;s a fun idea that makes big movies and keeps the convention centers &#39;round the world full of people in costume trading comic books and have weird dork orgies, but NO, they don&#39;t exist.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/cGyQVO62QM0"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cGyQVO62QM0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[SaintsFan_Webby]

Why are wormholes, curved space et al so unbelievable?

We (as in the human race) can only accurately apply the laws of physics we know exist on Earth. How can anyone yet know whether the same laws apply outside our own solar system or galaxy?

Gravity is different on every planet we know about. Who can say whether out in space there aren&#39;t things which differ hugely from our own scientific experience?

[RoyalBlueStuey]

We (as in the human race) can only accurately apply the laws of physics we know exist on Earth. How can anyone yet know whether the same laws apply outside our own solar system or galaxy?

Gravity is different on every planet we know about. Who can say whether out in space there aren&#39;t things which differ hugely from our own scientific experience? [/b]

Argh!...the laws of physics aren&#39;t localised, they aren&#39;t eccentric & colloquial....that&#39;s the point. They are how things work...how things exist. It can&#39;t be different anywhere else.

There might be some extremes of localised force (Ie radiation or gravity) that might cause anomalies but the cause & effect will be the same wherever.

There is no evidence or any credible thinking to actually back up this wormhole bunkum. Just saying "You can&#39;t prove it isn&#39;t curved!" is not any argument.

[SaintsFan_Webby]

Argh!...the laws of physics aren&#39;t localised, they aren&#39;t eccentric & colloquial....that&#39;s the point. They are how things work...how things exist. It can&#39;t be different anywhere else.
[/b]

But surely the laws of physics are defined only by what humans have discovered?

Gravity didn&#39;t exist to human society until the theory behind it was discovered. How can you possibly say with any certainty that there isn&#39;t some revolutionary difference to this set of &#39;laws&#39; we have created lurking out there in the vast, as yet untouchable reaches of space?

You can&#39;t possibly.

That isn&#39;t to say the Universe definately does curve, or that wormholes definately could be used in a particular way. It&#39;s merely stating that no one in humanity can vouch with 100% certainty for what is out there.

[RoyalBlueStuey]

<div class='quotemain'>
Argh!...the laws of physics aren&#39;t localised, they aren&#39;t eccentric & colloquial....that&#39;s the point. They are how things work...how things exist. It can&#39;t be different anywhere else.
[/b]

But surely the laws of physics are defined only by what humans have discovered?

Gravity didn&#39;t exist to human society until the theory behind it was discovered. How can you possibly say with any certainty that there isn&#39;t some revolutionary difference to this set of &#39;laws&#39; we have created lurking out there in the vast, as yet untouchable reaches of space?

You can&#39;t possibly.

That isn&#39;t to say the Universe definately does curve, or that wormholes definately could be used in a particular way. It&#39;s merely stating that no one in humanity can vouch with 100% certainty for what is out there.

[/b][/quote]

No, I can...cleverer people then me have worked out how things work. They know how the sub atomic particles make up the atoms, they know how the atoms make up the molecules. We know about the different radiation right across the spectrum. They know how gravity effects things. We are pretty sussed at the moment. From what I&#39;ve looked at I have made up my mind. Do wormholes exist, our survey says :

http://www.ukgameshows.com/atoz/programmes/f/family_fortunes/bygraves_duhduhh.jpg

The problem is all these out-there theories that scientists bring up get seized upon by ill-informed media types and then leymen like us go "Oooooh!"

Gentlemen, I can assure you.....there is no way to nip from point A to point Z via some odd backdoor through to this convenient cosmic basement. This coupled with the theory of relativity (Ie you cannot travel at or faster than the speed of light) means that interstellar travel will end up be a slow generational thing.

SB

[Rugby_Cymru]

I don&#39;t see how this is getting anywhere.
I&#39;m not meaning to offend anyone, but we&#39;re arguing science and thte possibilities of our universe with religious people.
People who refuse to accept aliens exist because as teh bible dictates such illiusions are the work of the Devil.

We&#39;re never going to get a diplomatic response. As much as we are saying, "Yeah, maybe you&#39;re right, but there&#39;s still a possibility of what we&#39;re talking about being correct" their response is simply to plug their fingers in their ears and saying, "LALALALA...I&#39;M NOT LISTENING...LALALA...I AM RIGHT AND I KNOW IT....LALLALALA...YOU ARE WRONG."

[RoyalBlueStuey]

I don&#39;t see how this is getting anywhere.
I&#39;m not meaning to offend anyone, but we&#39;re arguing science and thte possibilities of our universe with religious people.
People who refuse to accept aliens exist because as teh bible dictates such illiusions are the work of the Devil.

We&#39;re never going to get a diplomatic response. As much as we are saying, "Yeah, maybe you&#39;re right, but there&#39;s still a possibility of what we&#39;re talking about being correct" their response is simply to plug their fingers in their ears and saying, "LALALALA...I&#39;M NOT LISTENING...LALALA...I AM RIGHT AND I KNOW IT....LALLALALA...YOU ARE WRONG."
[/b]

So basically me and O&#39;Ro are asking for proof of your wacky theories and you are, through blind faith alone, dogmatically sticking to this vague half-idea without any real evidence.......and then are coming back to us all playing the ignorant religious intolerance card.

Please tell me you did that deliberately to be clever and ironic.....the alternative is just too scarey to contemplate.

[Rugby_Cymru]

Ok, well all i can say is (and from what i&#39;ve read) that through FACTS this THEORY has been concocted. With Einsteins theory of general relativity where he has proved that mass bends space - the bigger the mass the more it bends space.
So when you&#39;ve got a mass as big as a blackhole and wtih such power, why can it not bend space enough? I believe what was being claimed was that if space bends enough and makes contact (like a folded piece of paper) then on the opposite side of the black hole exists a white hole.
Black hole sucks everything in - white hole spits everything out. And the one thing joining the two of those is a wormhole.

To me, it does not seem so far fetched.
It seems extravagent - very much so - but there&#39;s logic behind the thinking. There&#39;s fact behind the theory.
Which is more that what i can say for religion.
But that&#39;s just my opinion. I have to stretch my imagination far further to believe that some deity exists which magically made everything so, than to believe a wormhole could exist.

[QKXV]

I don&#39;t know how anyone can not appreciate the possibility that there&#39;s other forms of life in the universe, especially religious people. My argument is that the relgious people believe God is infinite, something we cannot appreciate with our tiny cognitive processes, this means that no holy book on the planet can really convey just how big and amazing God in any form really is, so they above all people should believe that there is more to life than just this little blue planet with us and a couple of other organisms, especially if you consider they believe in the after life and alien forms of beings like angels, demons and yin and the list goes on.

Recent discoveries suggest that there&#39;s astoningly high and unexpectedly more diversity in the deep of the ocean than ever imagined, recently more than 500 different SPECIES of crustacean were found, even in our own ocean the possibility exists that we will never know just how many different species there are.

As for the universe existing in the way it does because of our measuring and observing look no further than the most confusing yet the best way we currently have of explaining our universe- quantum physics. It&#39;s well know that light can behave either like a wave or a particle simply by changing the way it is observed, this is known as duality, the underlying cause of this is believed to be entanglement which suggests that objects that have interacted become entangled in a way that you can&#39;t influence one without influencing the other, curently this is thought to be the reason why objects have mass.

If we create the laws of the universe by the act of observing and measuring it and our current measurements offers the above the possibilty is bigger that we will not travel through space at the speed of light with spaceships as our measurments clearly indicates travel at that speed would be physically impossible but we would most probably use teleportation instead.

[Dumbo]

Yo QK, can you please teleport me to BokMagic&#39;s place via Samoa, Fiji and Tahiti...
Have 6&#39;4&#39;&#39;, 6&#39;7&#39;&#39; and 7&#39;2&#39;&#39; and am ready... just say the word ;)

[tituslechmakus]

Ok, well all i can say is (and from what i&#39;ve read) that through FACTS this THEORY has been concocted. With Einsteins theory of general relativity where he has proved that mass bends space - the bigger the mass the more it bends space.
So when you&#39;ve got a mass as big as a blackhole and wtih such power, why can it not bend space enough? I believe what was being claimed was that if space bends enough and makes contact (like a folded piece of paper) then on the opposite side of the black hole exists a white hole.
Black hole sucks everything in - white hole spits everything out. And the one thing joining the two of those is a wormhole.

To me, it does not seem so far fetched.
It seems extravagent - very much so - but there&#39;s logic behind the thinking. There&#39;s fact behind the theory.
Which is more that what i can say for religion.
But that&#39;s just my opinion. I have to stretch my imagination far further to believe that some deity exists which magically made everything so, than to believe a wormhole could exist.

[/b]



i agree with almost everything you said and i must add 2 things : 1st the einstein theory of relativity is possibly wrong (some ppl are actually trying to prove it) and another theory which i didn&#39;t understand everything of due to scientifical facts and terms that i don&#39;t even understand in my own language (so i couldn&#39;t translate sorry) but saying that there is not only 4 dimensions (x, y, z and time) but there would be in fact 10. its something about dimensions being rounded on themselves and present everywhere but not visible. weird theories but if they get right in the next years, could modify our perception of the world & universe.



btw there is not only one way to go from a point A to a point B ... there is an infinity !!!

[O'Rothlain]

I don&#39;t see how this is getting anywhere.
I&#39;m not meaning to offend anyone, but we&#39;re arguing science and thte possibilities of our universe with religious people.
People who refuse to accept aliens exist because as teh bible dictates such illiusions are the work of the Devil.

We&#39;re never going to get a diplomatic response. As much as we are saying, "Yeah, maybe you&#39;re right, but there&#39;s still a possibility of what we&#39;re talking about being correct" their response is simply to plug their fingers in their ears and saying, "LALALALA...I&#39;M NOT LISTENING...LALALA...I AM RIGHT AND I KNOW IT....LALLALALA...YOU ARE WRONG."
[/b]
I can only assume that I am one of these "religious people." I however have never stated that I do not believe in life outside our planet because it is a "illusion of the devil." In fact, I don&#39;t believe in it, because I don&#39;t. We are the only planet (obviously that we know of) in our own galaxy that can sustane life. ONLY. This is fact...we are "somehow" just perfectly far enough away and close enough to the Sun. Our Moon is just perfectly at the right distance to keep our rotation off axis which provides us with al the lovely things we enjoy. We have the perfect amount of light at daytime, and light at night time. Some how we live on this happen-chance of a planet that is perfectly suited to our every need. It&#39;s astonishing how well catered to we are here on earth.
Having stated this, any other life form, if they exist are far beyond our reach.
I think my and RBS&#39;s points have been, there are laws that govern the universe. If somehow these laws didn&#39;t apply in space, then how would we send probes to mars, or land on the moon? If as soon as we got out of our atmosphere the rules changed into some whacky Bizzaro world how could we have made the accoomplishments we&#39;ve made? If anyting NASA and everyother space agencies research have only strengthend our understanding of natural law and physics, not changed them up. When you watch tv beamed to you live from Iraq, or a rugby match televised to your home in the UK from Australia (or vise versa) that is all thanks to these things call LAWS. Our understanding of them allows us to replicate, what I believe God did with earth, and perfectly balance satelites in rotation around our planet.
If there are lifeforms outside of our own somewhere out there, they are "lightyears" beyond us, and I don&#39;t believe that we have or they have made contact with us, nor will we be making contact any time soon.
When it comes to traveling at the speed of light or whatever we are soooooooooooo far off from it, if it&#39;s possible. We talk about it like it&#39;s nothing &#39;cause we&#39;ve seen it in movies, but do you know how fast that is?

[RoyalBlueStuey]

Another one that blows me away is the fact that we have total eclipses the way we do.

We are a certain distance away from the sun so it looks a certain size in the sky and we have a moon that is just the right size and at the right distance to by the exact same size as the sun when it achieves totality.

If it was a tiny bit smaller or bigger or further away or nearer you wouldn&#39;t see the corona and diamond ring effects.

http://epod.usra.edu/archive/images/totaleclipse.jpg

[O'Rothlain]

Another one that blows me away is the fact that we have total eclipses the way we do.

We are a certain distance away from the sun so it looks a certain size in the sky and we have a moon that is just the right size and at the right distance to by the exact same size as the sun when it achieves totality.

If it was a tiny bit smaller or bigger or further away or nearer you wouldn&#39;t see the corona and diamond ring effects.

http://epod.usra.edu/archive/images/totaleclipse.jpg


[/b]
It must be evolution or something silly like that, surely? :P

[RoyalBlueStuey]

It must be evolution or something silly like that, surely? :P

[/b]

"Your Agnosticism must be a great comfort to you"

"Sing me one of those old Agnostic hymns"

[St Helens RLFC]

What a great thread this is.

[tituslechmakus]

[quote] I
I can only assume that I am one of these "religious people." I however have never stated that I do not believe in life outside our planet because it is a "illusion of the devil." In fact, I don&#39;t believe in it, because I don&#39;t. We are the only planet (obviously that we know of) in our own galaxy that can sustane life. ONLY. This is fact...we are "somehow" just perfectly far enough away and close enough to the Sun. Our Moon is just perfectly at the right distance to keep our rotation off axis which provides us with al the lovely things we enjoy. We have the perfect amount of light at daytime, and light at night time. Some how we live on this happen-chance of a planet that is perfectly suited to our every need. It&#39;s astonishing how well catered to we are here on earth.




sorry i disagree with this perspective :) . all what you say on this is because life develloped that way on our planet and fits with the conditions we have. but who could tell that for example on a 50°C planet with a gravity 6 times more than the one we have, life could not grow on a different way with another form ... that would be life but not as we know it !!! :)




Another one that blows me away is the fact that we have total eclipses the way we do.

We are a certain distance away from the sun so it looks a certain size in the sky and we have a moon that is just the right size and at the right distance to by the exact same size as the sun when it achieves totality.

If it was a tiny bit smaller or bigger or further away or nearer you wouldn&#39;t see the corona and diamond ring effects.

http://epod.usra.edu/archive/images/totaleclipse.jpg






nop sorry also disagree !!!



the reason why you have a full sun eclpise is because you are at the right place at the right time for that ... otherwise you have a partial sun eclipse. a full eclipse is always localised on a small area on the earth surface its never for the full planet ... and if you live in this area then you&#39;ll be able to see the image up here

[O'Rothlain]

nop sorry also disagree !!!



the reason why you have a full sun eclpise is because you are at the right place at the right time for that ... otherwise you have a partial sun eclipse. a full eclipse is always localised on a small area on the earth surface its never for the full planet ... and if you live in this area then you&#39;ll be able to see the image up here

[/b]
Yes, but it wouldn&#39;t be possible if things weren&#39;t exactly, precisely, almost mathematically geniously perfect. Our moon is the perfect size and perfect distance from us to make it possible. Yes, you have to be in the right places, but the fact that it is possible at all is what is amazing.
Look at our ability (mankind) sense earliest times to tell time by using the sun moon and stars.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/stonehenge/img/stonehenge_416.gif
I&#39;m not a big believer in happenchance. Things are not random. Study the Second Law of Thermodynamics. I believe it echos the idea that there was a creator.

[An Tarbh]

study and thermodynamics just gives me a headache, any chance of explaining it in simpler terms!!!

[O'Rothlain]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/0/a/b/0abef3292f6afbd6dede3a2155ae1b45.png
Uhm...okay...simple terms:
Things start out orderly and move towards disorder.

This idea (LAW) goes against the randomness of the world just being here, IMO.

[RC]

If we were to persue this subject matter with logic, if we looked at nature, like RBS and O&#39;Ro are begging us to do, and adhere to that of the "laws of nature" then i ask you to look at 2 things:

The Circle
and
The Straight Line


The circle, the cylinder, however you want to view it is something that nature creates. Bubbles on a puddle on a rainy day for example. Some philosophers even scientists have long regarded the cicle as the "perfect figure", as the symbol of divine creation.

The straight line, however, is a very man-made notion. It epitomises us (there&#39;s a beginning and an end to us all) with our timeline&#39;s etc. It&#39;s finite and filled with clarity, but it&#39;s exactly what i just said: Man-made.

I&#39;m just thinking logically. If the circle is nature epitomised then why can the universe not be cyclical?
I know that wasn&#39;t proposed before when we were talking about the curvature of space-time, but couldn&#39;t this be just as plausible?
To say the universe doesn&#39;t curve, but that it is just a big line (for arguments sake) would be a very narrow minded thought...quite that of the typcal human. It would be too man-made and the both the religious and aethiests out there can agree on this one together:

Man did not make the universe.

[shtove]

If you really want to put an end to the speculation about undiscovered forms of life, just create a baby. You&#39;ll be so f***ing tired looking after the thing that all speculation will end right there.

[RC]

:lol:

Fecking awesome!

[Commander Jaco]

I think its very much possible, we have barely explored our own solar system nevermind whats outside it.

[RoyalBlueStuey]

If we were to persue this subject matter with logic, if we looked at nature, like RBS and O&#39;Ro are begging us to do, and adhere to that of the "laws of nature" then i ask you to look at 2 things:

The Circle
and
The Straight Line


The circle, the cylinder, however you want to view it is something that nature creates. Bubbles on a puddle on a rainy day for example. Some philosophers even scientists have long regarded the cicle as the "perfect figure", as the symbol of divine creation.

The straight line, however, is a very man-made notion. It epitomises us (there&#39;s a beginning and an end to us all) with our timeline&#39;s etc. It&#39;s finite and filled with clarity, but it&#39;s exactly what i just said: Man-made.

I&#39;m just thinking logically. If the circle is nature epitomised then why can the universe not be cyclical?
I know that wasn&#39;t proposed before when we were talking about the curvature of space-time, but couldn&#39;t this be just as plausible?
To say the universe doesn&#39;t curve, but that it is just a big line (for arguments sake) would be a very narrow minded thought...quite that of the typcal human. It would be too man-made and the both the religious and aethiests out there can agree on this one together:

Man did not make the universe. [/b]

:o

None of that has even the slightest bearing on what we are talking about.

[RC]

Really? Because i was under the impression we were talking about the universe and whether it&#39;s curved or not - so i just proposed a brief theory that it could be round.

<_<

Sounds like i&#39;m on track....


Good response though.

[RoyalBlueStuey]

Really? Because i was under the impression we were talking about the universe and whether it&#39;s curved or not - so i just proposed a brief theory that it could be round.

<_<

Sounds like i&#39;m on track....


Good response though. [/b]

Trust me, it&#39;s not circular.

[RC]

Trust me...
[/b]

I giggled ever so gently when i read those words. You know, considering the closed minded responses you&#39;ve been dishing out during this so called discussion.

[RoyalBlueStuey]

<div class='quotemain'> Trust me...
[/b]

I giggled ever so gently when i read those words. You know, considering the closed minded responses you&#39;ve been dishing out during this so called discussion.

[/b][/quote]

Close minded, pah. Piffle.

there&#39;s no been any theories put forward....just vague concepts. Me and O&#39;Ro have just took them on their merits.

[RC]

Ok, i&#39;m going to try and put this theory across as best as i can. Now, i&#39;m not a bright lad, and i&#39;m certainly not a scientist of any calibre so i&#39;m going to give the information as best as i can.

Einstein proved (thanks to the help of an Indian cosmologist, i believe) that mass can bend time-space.
This was proven when a telescope managed to pick up images, duing a solar eclipse, of a star that was currently situated behind the sun. It was said that the sun&#39;s mass was great enough to bend time-space so that the star could be seen, when theoretically speaking and breaking all previously known laws this should never have been the case.

This is where the original argument comes from: That a black hole - this monstrously huge mass of a vacuum - would also have this effect on the universe. The sun, as big as it is, bends time-space to a certain degree - but when taken into context the size of a black hole (which has the ability to swallow planets like we would a grain of sand) then the effect such a mass would have on the universe can be imagined.

The theory propsed is that once one enters in through a black hole naturally there should be "out" on the other side of this thing. Which i believe is known as a white hole. The connection between the black and white hole is known as the "worm hole". Now this is seen as the transportation, the thought that maybe something could travel through.

But that&#39;s besides the point. What has been claimed is that because of the black hole&#39;s mass it would have such a significant bend on time-space that what would appear at the opposite end (the white hole end) would be a point in the universe that is now significantly closer.

So to an extent, you have already been proven wrong. The universe is curved and Einstein proved it.
But, i don&#39;t have to throw my imagination that far to believe that if the sun can bend time-space by such a proportion then a black hole could do it to a far greater proportion.

You have to excuse my lack of extensive knowledge and how amateurishly i put across this idea, but it&#39;s the best i can muster. I want to try and clarify an issue that i see as being quite plausible, which you however see as a "vague concept". It&#39;s as good as i can do to try and not be vague; to try and bolster the idea with some facts and if you accept that it&#39;s not a "vague concept" but you still don&#39;t believe it, then i&#39;ll just have to concede that i personally (and, who knows, maybe nobody on this earh) could make you think otherwise.
And i respect that.

[RoyalBlueStuey]

Einstein proved (thanks to the help of an Indian cosmologist, i believe) that mass can bend time-space.
This was proven when a telescope managed to pick up images, duing a solar eclipse, of a star that was currently situated behind the sun. It was said that the sun&#39;s mass was great enough to bend time-space so that the star could be seen, when theoretically speaking and breaking all previously known laws this should never have been the case.

The theory propsed is that once one enters in through a black hole naturally there should be "out" on the other side of this thing. Which i believe is known as a white hole. The connection between the black and white hole is known as the "worm hole". Now this is seen as the transportation, the thought that maybe something could travel through.

But that&#39;s besides the point. What has been claimed is that because of the black hole&#39;s mass it would have such a significant bend on time-space that what would appear at the opposite end (the white hole end) would be a point in the universe that is now significantly closer.

So to an extent, you have already been proven wrong. The universe is curved and Einstein proved it.
But, i don&#39;t have to throw my imagination that far to believe that if the sun can bend time-space by such a proportion then a black hole could do it to a far greater proportion.

[/b]

It didn&#39;t bend space and time.....the huge gravity of such a vast object distorted the otherwise straight path of the light waves eminating from the distant object. It&#39;s the same phenomena that makes black holes black....they are so super dense and heavy that the light waves that pass near to them are sucked into it.

http://www.geocities.com/Omegaman_UK/relativity/REL7.gif

You can say that it&#39;s bending space/time but that&#39;s where people get over-awed by the conept...basically think of that grid as the surface of a pool table but where the sun is there is a big hollow/depression representing it&#39;s gravity well...if you took a pool ball (representing a light wave) and rolled across the upper rim of the depression/hollow/gravity well it&#39;d curve round the lip...it&#39;s just like putting on an undulating green.

At least that&#39;s my interpretation of it. And of course you have that flat grid there in the diagram plus one for every conceivable angle of travel.....but that&#39;s it, I just can&#39;t see how there could be anything else.

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotemain'>

Einstein proved (thanks to the help of an Indian cosmologist, i believe) that mass can bend time-space.
This was proven when a telescope managed to pick up images, duing a solar eclipse, of a star that was currently situated behind the sun. It was said that the sun&#39;s mass was great enough to bend time-space so that the star could be seen, when theoretically speaking and breaking all previously known laws this should never have been the case.

The theory propsed is that once one enters in through a black hole naturally there should be "out" on the other side of this thing. Which i believe is known as a white hole. The connection between the black and white hole is known as the "worm hole". Now this is seen as the transportation, the thought that maybe something could travel through.

But that&#39;s besides the point. What has been claimed is that because of the black hole&#39;s mass it would have such a significant bend on time-space that what would appear at the opposite end (the white hole end) would be a point in the universe that is now significantly closer.

So to an extent, you have already been proven wrong. The universe is curved and Einstein proved it.
But, i don&#39;t have to throw my imagination that far to believe that if the sun can bend time-space by such a proportion then a black hole could do it to a far greater proportion.

[/b]

It didn&#39;t bend space and time.....the huge gravity of such a vast object distorted the otherwise straight path of the light waves eminating from the distant object. It&#39;s the same phenomena that makes black holes black....they are so super dense and heavy that the light waves that pass near to them are sucked into it.

http://www.geocities.com/Omegaman_UK/relativity/REL7.gif

You can say that it&#39;s bending space/time but that&#39;s where people get over-awed by the conept...basically think of that grid as the surface of a pool table but where the sun is there is a big hollow/depression representing it&#39;s gravity well...if you took a pool ball (representing a light wave) and rolled across the upper rim of the depression/hollow/gravity well it&#39;d curve round the lip...it&#39;s just like putting on an undulating green.

At least that&#39;s my interpretation of it. And of course you have that flat grid there in the diagram plus one for every conceivable angle of travel.....but that&#39;s it, I just can&#39;t see how there could be anything else.
[/b][/quote]
Yeah...I actually caught a show on the Discovery Channel where they "Discovered an Alien Spaceship" and began disucssing the parts in it. Now the show had the fictitional premise of discovering an alien spaceship, but it went on to logically talk about what it would take to travel in space, ect. ect. The closest star (sun) to our own solar system is like 43 billion light years away. This is the nearest place where other life could theoretically exist. please conceptualize that distance. Even if you could manage to travel the speed of light (at which according to einstien mass would becom ultimately large, meaning that the ship would swell to some ridiculous enormousity of size...wouldn&#39;t really survive that journey, would we?) it would take how many years?
The black hole/worm hole thing is, as to my understanding more like RBS has stated. Clever diagram too.

[melon]

http://www.fmp666.com/moonlight/blasphemy.jpg

[RC]

Great responses by both O&#39;Ro and RBS. I must not have (altho never claimed to have) understood what i was reading.
My knowledge is far too limited to even conceive another arguement. Einstein has claimed time-space is curved, but little do i know how he suggests that is so.

I&#39;ll have to do a hell of a lot of research. :D

[RoyalBlueStuey]

Great responses by both O&#39;Ro and RBS. I must not have (altho never claimed to have) understood what i was reading.
My knowledge is far too limited to even conceive another arguement. Einstein has claimed time-space is curved, but little do i know how he suggests that is so.
[/b]

Techno-babble gets us every time mate, those sciencie types just can&#39;t resist it.

[tituslechmakus]

Great responses by both O&#39;Ro and RBS. I must not have (altho never claimed to have) understood what i was reading.
My knowledge is far too limited to even conceive another arguement. Einstein has claimed time-space is curved, but little do i know how he suggests that is so.

I&#39;ll have to do a hell of a lot of research. :D
[/b]



but einstein could be wrong ... he hasn&#39;t the truth in his mouth. his theories work in our actual perceptions of the universe ... like ppl were saying the world is flat before discovering america ...

i agree with some of your views but i don&#39;t think the universe is exactly curved ... i see it like a mud puddle pool with irregular form (as i said in a previous post some theories say universe is still in expansion).

[O'Rothlain]

but einstein could be wrong ... he hasn&#39;t the truth in his mouth. his theories work in our actual perceptions of the universe ... like ppl were saying the world is flat before discovering america ...

i agree with some of your views but i don&#39;t think the universe is exactly curved ... i see it like a mud puddle pool with irregular form (as i said in a previous post some theories say universe is still in expansion).

[/b]
It&#39;s a myth that people thought the earth was flat. It was a myth created to make Christopher Colombus look greater than he was.
When we speak of the universe we speak of dimensions, just like we do on earth. There are 3 dimensions to make things appear as they are. This requires 3 points and 3 intersecting lines.
Point a to point b? Straight line.

[RC]

I believe scientists now claim there are 10 dimensions.
1 for time and 9 for space.
What on earth they could be going on about, i have no idea.

[RoyalBlueStuey]

I believe scientists now claim there are 10 dimensions.
1 for time and 9 for space.
What on earth they could be going on about, i have no idea.

[/b]

Why knows...it probably some vague wooly concept they&#39;ve come up with to justify their own existence but can&#39;t actually prove.

I mightn&#39;t be very clever but I have good bullshit detectors, check out this pile bollocks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_string

Scientists, it has to be said, are criminally under-valued. In a world where we&#39;ve never known so much about everything that&#39;s truly important people like Chantal, Jade and Paris fecking Hilton rule the psyche of the masses whilst Pete Docherty lurches round doing bugger all and getting lauded for it.

Personally I can just about take it &#39;cause I&#39;m probably just as useless & telentless but (and this is just my vague wooly theory you understand) those people who are actually good at something but get no recognition resent it massively....Scientists fall into this category and they extract revenge by coming up with all this intriguingly cool sounding techno babble to awe us into paying attention hence event horizons, gravity wells, warped space time continuams etc etc. It&#39;s like in Uni...reports featuring words like Method, Idea and Plan get Bs, replace them with Methodology, Paradigm and Strategy....*Bingo Bongo* you&#39;re cruising down A Plus Avenue baby.

I wholly believe this theory....I challenge someone to put it to the test. Terminate Paris, Jade and Chantal and I bet scientists start talking a language us ley people understand. I&#39;m willing to bet their lives on it.

[YKNGR]

Do you think theres such thing as aliens? at least some kind of lifeform must exist in the universe right?

[RC]

Yes.
I believe there must be life forms out there.
I believe that there are life forms much more advanced than we are.
I believe that i&#39;m going to die never knowing the truth though.

[Soulforged]

It&#39;s possible, fun and even sexy to believe that there&#39;s something out there that can think and feel like us. There are, for sure, no sentient aliens out there, the planets are too much, and even if the conditions for there to be life just like in the Earth are hard to get two times, I think that life has adquired many forms around the universe, of course I cannot prove it. I don&#39;t think though that there&#39;s another sentient species on the whole universe, the probability is so minimal that I can negate it, I would like to think so though.

[melon]

It&#39;s possible, fun and even sexy to believe that there&#39;s something out there that can think and feel like us. There are, for sure, no sentient aliens out there, the planets are too much, and even if the conditions for there to be life just like in the Earth are hard to get two times, I think that life has adquired many forms around the universe, of course I cannot prove it. I don&#39;t think though that there&#39;s another sentient species on the whole universe, the probability is so minimal that I can negate it, I would like to think so though. [/b]
Well I&#39;m glad someone can be "turned on" when thinking about such things... :P

[feicarsinn]

i didnt bother reading most of the thread because im lazy so i dunno if its already been posted but theres always Drakes theory on the probability of intelligent life
N = R x fp x ne x fl x fi x fc x L
R is the rate at which stars have been born in the Milky Way per year, fp is the fraction of these stars that have solar systems of planets, ne is the average number of "Earthlike" planets (potentially suitable for life) in the typical solar system, fl is the fraction of those planets on which life actually forms, fi is the fraction of life-bearing planets where biological evolution produces an intelligent species, fc is the fraction of intelligent species that become capable of interstellar radio communication, and L is the average lifetime of a communicating civilization in years.
roughly this gives us (with an optimistic outlook) roughly 10000 technonlogically advanced civilisations in our galaxy or one for every 40 million stars say the nearest one being around 1000 light years away from us. just to put some reason into the arguement.

oh yeah and those figures are based on
R = 1
fp = <1
fl = 1
fi = 1)
fc = 1

so N may equal L lets say 10,000 ish

[jonty4113]

If there&#39;s no extra-terrestrial life,how do you explain Chabal&#39;s beard? Seriously though, I remain to be convinced of the existence of extra-terrestrial life- the odds of life having emerged may be good, but the odds of it having evolved and survived are, I think, small and overlooked in many rough lay-scientific estimations.

[montgomery1944]

Do I believe that there are aliens? I am sure that this is a true, they are watching us all the time, we should realize that and prepare to meeting with them :D

[RC]

Now that&#39;s the kind of thinking i like!
Prepare in what way though: for hosility?
Are we expecting friends or foe?

[SaintsFan_Webby]

Now that&#39;s the kind of thinking i like!
Prepare in what way though: for hosility?
Are we expecting friends or foe?
[/b]



We&#39;re human! We can&#39;t even be nice to each other for any length of time, a totally different race of people would have no chance.

[RC]

So you say regardless of how they arrive (friend or foe) they&#39;re all gonna leave the same way?

[SaintsFan_Webby]

Little green body-bags my friend, little green body-bags.

[Brodizzle]

What if they are like those space babes like Captain Kirk would have sex with all the time?

[St Helens RLFC]

I am undecided as to the machinations of any other lifeforms. I am convinced they are out there, especially having seen a UFO myself, but i have never been able to decided whether they are friend or foe. That is a topic of debate in itself.

[O'Rothlain]

Now that&#39;s the kind of thinking i like!
Prepare in what way though: for hosility?
Are we expecting friends or foe?
[/b]
I hope if there are (which I will definitley say there aren&#39;t) aliens and we are to prepare to meet them that they are hot green skinned big boobed aliens like Captain Kirk got to shag.

[Sir Speedy]

Yes I do, the universe is way too massive to not harbour life other than us. People argue that life on Earth was a fluke, but I don&#39;t see how other &#39;flukes&#39; cannot occur in other places in the universe. Not to mention that some organisms can live in conditions that we humans cannot. The fact is, the possibilities are endless when discussing whether there is life out there, their intelligence and state of development as civilisation and organisms, and what conditions they live in.

I rest my case, your Honour.

[snooch]

Yes I do, the universe is way too massive to not harbour life other than us. People argue that life on Earth was a fluke, but I don&#39;t see how other &#39;flukes&#39; cannot occur in other places in the universe. Not to mention that some organisms can live in conditions that we humans cannot. The fact is, the possibilities are endless when discussing whether there is life out there, their intelligence and state of development as civilisation and organisms, and what conditions they live in.

I rest my case, your Honour.
[/b]

Have you ever read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins? He goes on to talk about how if you think about it from the view of a physicist, every single aspect of the universe works towards our favour. Gravity stops us from floating into space, but isn&#39;t too powerful to squish us into the ground, and Earth was constructed and positioned in the exact right place to create and harbour life.

While I&#39;m no physicist myself, I think that either we got extremely lucky when the universe was created, or there is some greater being behind these perfect conditions.

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotemain'>
Yes I do, the universe is way too massive to not harbour life other than us. People argue that life on Earth was a fluke, but I don&#39;t see how other &#39;flukes&#39; cannot occur in other places in the universe. Not to mention that some organisms can live in conditions that we humans cannot. The fact is, the possibilities are endless when discussing whether there is life out there, their intelligence and state of development as civilisation and organisms, and what conditions they live in.

I rest my case, your Honour.
[/b]

Have you ever read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins? He goes on to talk about how if you think about it from the view of a physicist, every single aspect of the universe works towards our favour. Gravity stops us from floating into space, but isn&#39;t too powerful to squish us into the ground, and Earth was constructed and positioned in the exact right place to create and harbour life.

While I&#39;m no physicist myself, I think that either we got extremely lucky when the universe was created, or there is some greater being behind these perfect conditions. [/b][/quote]
THANK YOU :bravo:
I don&#39;t understand how more people don&#39;t see this point.

[SaintsFan_Webby]

<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'>
Yes I do, the universe is way too massive to not harbour life other than us. People argue that life on Earth was a fluke, but I don&#39;t see how other &#39;flukes&#39; cannot occur in other places in the universe. Not to mention that some organisms can live in conditions that we humans cannot. The fact is, the possibilities are endless when discussing whether there is life out there, their intelligence and state of development as civilisation and organisms, and what conditions they live in.

I rest my case, your Honour.
[/b]

Have you ever read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins? He goes on to talk about how if you think about it from the view of a physicist, every single aspect of the universe works towards our favour. Gravity stops us from floating into space, but isn&#39;t too powerful to squish us into the ground, and Earth was constructed and positioned in the exact right place to create and harbour life.

While I&#39;m no physicist myself, I think that either we got extremely lucky when the universe was created, or there is some greater being behind these perfect conditions. [/b][/quote]
THANK YOU :bravo:
I don&#39;t understand how more people don&#39;t see this point.
[/b][/quote]

Surely the converse argument is that life has formed because of these conditions, not that organisms have been provided with a suitable environment? Hence why we are, as yet, unable to find life on planets with different conditions.

The whole deity theory seems to assume that this planet is a result of humans needing somewhere to exist, rather than life forming because the planet reached a natural state where conditions are condusive to it.

[Sir Speedy]

<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'>
Yes I do, the universe is way too massive to not harbour life other than us. People argue that life on Earth was a fluke, but I don&#39;t see how other &#39;flukes&#39; cannot occur in other places in the universe. Not to mention that some organisms can live in conditions that we humans cannot. The fact is, the possibilities are endless when discussing whether there is life out there, their intelligence and state of development as civilisation and organisms, and what conditions they live in.

I rest my case, your Honour.
[/b]

Have you ever read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins? He goes on to talk about how if you think about it from the view of a physicist, every single aspect of the universe works towards our favour. Gravity stops us from floating into space, but isn&#39;t too powerful to squish us into the ground, and Earth was constructed and positioned in the exact right place to create and harbour life.

While I&#39;m no physicist myself, I think that either we got extremely lucky when the universe was created, or there is some greater being behind these perfect conditions. [/b][/quote]
THANK YOU :bravo:
I don&#39;t understand how more people don&#39;t see this point.
[/b][/quote]
Universe = BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG
Amount of Stars = BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG
Amount of Stars that have Planets circling = BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG
Amount of Planets that have conditions to harbour human life = Small
Amount of Planets that could harbour life that &#39;Aliens&#39; could survive in = BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG!!!"!$!"%!"%¬!!

[BLR]

Surely the converse argument is that life has formed because of these conditions, not that organisms have been provided with a suitable environment? Hence why we are, as yet, unable to find life on planets with different conditions.

The whole deity theory seems to assume that this planet is a result of humans needing somewhere to exist, rather than life forming because the planet reached a natural state where conditions are condusive to it.
[/b]
This is to assume that a deity has his hands on the wheel at every moment in time, who is to say that they didn&#39;t set the &#39;road map&#39; and then let the rest sort itself out?

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotemain'>
Surely the converse argument is that life has formed because of these conditions, not that organisms have been provided with a suitable environment? Hence why we are, as yet, unable to find life on planets with different conditions.

The whole deity theory seems to assume that this planet is a result of humans needing somewhere to exist, rather than life forming because the planet reached a natural state where conditions are condusive to it.
[/b]
This is to assume that a deity has his hands on the wheel at every moment in time, who is to say that they didn&#39;t set the &#39;road map&#39; and then let the rest sort itself out? [/b][/quote]
I believe Moses is the one to say that.

[shtove]

Have you ever read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins?[/b]
I have.

Witless, humourless, puke-inducing arrogance.

It contributes nothing - just a publishing phenomenon.

[nam97]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'>
Yes I do, the universe is way too massive to not harbour life other than us. People argue that life on Earth was a fluke, but I don&#39;t see how other &#39;flukes&#39; cannot occur in other places in the universe. Not to mention that some organisms can live in conditions that we humans cannot. The fact is, the possibilities are endless when discussing whether there is life out there, their intelligence and state of development as civilisation and organisms, and what conditions they live in.

I rest my case, your Honour.
[/b]

Have you ever read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins? He goes on to talk about how if you think about it from the view of a physicist, every single aspect of the universe works towards our favour. Gravity stops us from floating into space, but isn&#39;t too powerful to squish us into the ground, and Earth was constructed and positioned in the exact right place to create and harbour life.

While I&#39;m no physicist myself, I think that either we got extremely lucky when the universe was created, or there is some greater being behind these perfect conditions. [/b][/quote]
THANK YOU :bravo:
I don&#39;t understand how more people don&#39;t see this point.
[/b][/quote]
Universe = BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG
Amount of Stars = BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG
Amount of Stars that have Planets circling = BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG
Amount of Planets that have conditions to harbour human life = Small
Amount of Planets that could harbour life that &#39;Aliens&#39; could survive in = BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG!!!"!$!"%!"%¬!!
[/b][/quote]

Exactly. I see people who dismiss the possibility of other life forms elsewhere to be extremely naive on the basis of those very facts you have provided (not to offend anyone, everyone has a right as to what they believe).