View Full Version : Can pirating games be justified sometimes?
I just posted this rant in another thread on league unlimited and wondered how many people would agreed with me here:
I agree that pirating should be totally shunned and not accepted... except for special circumstances... special circumstances being EA spending buckets of money to gain exclusive rights over the NFL lisence simply because they couldn't deal with the fact that Madden was made to look ordinary but ESPN 2k5! Now I hate NFL with a passion, but even I would go out and purposely support the pirating of all future EA Madden titles simply because if EA feel justified in taking money and business away from another company simply because their product can no longer compete with others, then why should we as consumers feel inclined to pay for their product, when it was that company's cowardly action that stemmed the flow of competition to that particular genre???
Thoughts?
I stated in numerous other threads that I really have little respect for NFL, but NFL fans have a right to see some competition for their loyalty in the gaming market and EA's effective monopolising of the genre will likely see the games get slack...
Note: Just to be double clear for people who may misunderstand this: I don't support pirating, my point is that a massive company like EA buying exclusive lisence to a gaming genre like the NFL has an effect on other less finacially powerfull company's far more crippling than piracy...
Here's something someone else posted from another website in regard to EA's treatment of there own employee's:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
My significant other works for Electronic Arts, and I'm what you might call a disgruntled spouse.
EA's bright and shiny new corporate trademark is "Challenge Everything." Where this applies is not exactly clear. Churning out one licensed football game after another doesn't sound like challenging much of anything to me; it sounds like a money farm. To any EA executive that happens to read this, I have a good challenge for you: how about safe and sane labor practices for the people on whose backs you walk for your millions?
I am retaining some anonymity here because I have no illusions about what the consequences would be for my family if I was explicit. However, I also feel no impetus to shy away from sharing our story, because I know that it is too common to stick out among those of the thousands of engineers, artists, and designers that EA employs.
Our adventures with Electronic Arts began less than a year ago. The small game studio that my partner worked for collapsed as a result of foul play on the part of a big publisher -- another common story. Electronic Arts offered a job, the salary was right and the benefits were good, so my SO took it. I remember that they asked him in one of the interviews: "how do you feel about working long hours?" It's just a part of the game industry -- few studios can avoid a crunch as deadlines loom, so we thought nothing of it. When asked for specifics about what "working long hours" meant, the interviewers coughed and glossed on to the next question; now we know why.
Within weeks production had accelerated into a 'mild' crunch: eight hours six days a week. Not bad. Months remained until any real crunch would start, and the team was told that this "pre-crunch" was to prevent a big crunch toward the end; at this point any other need for a crunch seemed unlikely, as the project was dead on schedule. I don't know how many of the developers bought EA's explanation for the extended hours; we were new and naive so we did. The producers even set a deadline; they gave a specific date for the end of the crunch, which was still months away from the title's shipping date, so it seemed safe. That date came and went. And went, and went. When the next news came it was not about a reprieve; it was another acceleration: twelve hours six days a week, 9am to 10pm.
Weeks passed. Again the producers had given a termination date on this crunch that again they failed. Throughout this period the project remained on schedule. The long hours started to take its toll on the team; people grew irritable and some started to get ill. People dropped out in droves for a couple of days at a time, but then the team seemed to reach equilibrium again and they plowed ahead. The managers stopped even talking about a day when the hours would go back to normal.
Now, it seems, is the "real" crunch, the one that the producers of this title so wisely prepared their team for by running them into the ground ahead of time. The current mandatory hours are 9am to 10pm -- seven days a week -- with the occasional Saturday evening off for good behavior (at 6:30pm). This averages out to an eighty-five hour work week. Complaints that these once more extended hours combined with the team's existing fatigue would result in a greater number of mistakes made and an even greater amount of wasted energy were ignored.
The stress is taking its toll. After a certain number of hours spent working the eyes start to lose focus; after a certain number of weeks with only one day off fatigue starts to accrue and accumulate exponentially. There is a reason why there are two days in a weekend -- bad things happen to one's physical, emotional, and mental health if these days are cut short. The team is rapidly beginning to introduce as many flaws as they are removing.
And the kicker: for the honor of this treatment EA salaried employees receive a) no overtime; B) no compensation time! ('comp' time is the equalization of time off for overtime -- any hours spent during a crunch accrue into days off after the product has shipped); c) no additional sick or vacation leave. The time just goes away. Additionally, EA recently announced that, although in the past they have offered essentially a type of comp time in the form of a few weeks off at the end of a project, they no longer wish to do this, and employees shouldn't expect it. Further, since the production of various games is scattered, there was a concern on the part of the employees that developers would leave one crunch only to join another. EA's response was that they would attempt to minimize this, but would make no guarantees. This is unthinkable; they are pushing the team to individual physical health limits, and literally giving them nothing for it. Comp time is a staple in this industry, but EA as a corporation wishes to "minimize" this reprieve. One would think that the proper way to minimize comp time is to avoid crunch, but this brutal crunch has been on for months, and nary a whisper about any compensation leave, nor indeed of any end of this treatment.
This crunch also differs from crunch time in a smaller studio in that it was not an emergency effort to save a project from failure. Every step of the way, the project remained on schedule. Crunching neither accelerated this nor slowed it down; its effect on the actual product was not measurable. The extended hours were deliberate and planned; the management knew what they were doing as they did it. The love of my life comes home late at night complaining of a headache that will not go away and a chronically upset stomach, and my happy supportive smile is running out.
No one works in the game industry unless they love what they do. No one on that team is interested in producing an inferior product. My heart bleeds for this team precisely BECAUSE they are brilliant, talented individuals out to create something great. They are and were more than willing to work hard for the success of the title. But that good will has only been met with abuse. Amazingly, Electronic Arts was listed #91 on Fortune magazine's "100 Best Companies to Work For" in 2003.
EA's attitude toward this -- which is actually a part of company policy, it now appears -- has been (in an anonymous quotation that I've heard repeated by multiple managers), "If they don't like it, they can work someplace else." Put up or shut up and leave: this is the core of EA's Human Resources policy. The concept of ethics or compassion or even intelligence with regard to getting the most out of one's workforce never enters the equation: if they don't want to sacrifice their lives and their health and their talent so that a multibillion dollar corporation can continue its Godzilla-stomp through the game industry, they can work someplace else.
But can they?
The EA Mambo, paired with other giants such as Vivendi, Sony, and Microsoft, is rapidly either crushing or absorbing the vast majority of the business in game development. A few standalone studios that made their fortunes in previous eras -- Blizzard, Bioware, and Id come to mind -- manage to still survive, but 2004 saw the collapse of dozens of small game studios, no longer able to acquire contracts in the face of rapid and massive consolidation of game publishing companies. This is an epidemic hardly unfamiliar to anyone working in the industry. Though, of course, it is always the option of talent to go outside the industry, perhaps venturing into the booming commercial software development arena. (Read my tired attempt at sarcasm.)
To put some of this in perspective, I myself consider some figures. If EA truly believes that it needs to push its employees this hard -- I actually believe that they don't, and that it is a skewed operations perspective alone that results in the severity of their crunching, coupled with a certain expected amount of the inefficiency involved in running an enterprise as large as theirs -- the solution therefore should be to hire more engineers, or artists, or designers, as the case may be. Never should it be an option to punish one's workforce with ninety hour weeks; in any other industry the company in question would find itself sued out of business so fast its stock wouldn't even have time to tank. In its first weekend, Madden 2005 grossed $65 million. EA's annual revenue is approximately $2.5 billion. This company is not strapped for cash; their labor practices are inexcusable.
The interesting thing about this is an assumption that most of the employees seem to be operating under. Whenever the subject of hours come up, inevitably, it seems, someone mentions 'exemption'. They refer to a California law that supposedly exempts businesses from having to pay overtime to certain 'specialty' employees, including software programmers. This is Senate Bill 88. However, Senate Bill 88 specifically does not apply to the entertainment industry -- television, motion picture, and theater industries are specifically mentioned. Further, even in software, there is a pay minimum on the exemption: those exempt must be paid at least $90,000 annually. I can assure you that the majority of EA employees are in fact not in this pay bracket; ergo, these practices are not only unethical, they are illegal.
I look at our situation and I ask 'us': why do you stay? And the answer is that in all likelihood we won't; and in all likelihood if we had known that this would be the result of working for EA, we would have stayed far away in the first place. But all along the way there were deceptions, there were promises, there were assurances -- there was a big fancy office building with an expensive fish tank -- all of which in the end look like an elaborate scheme to keep a crop of employees on the project just long enough to get it shipped. And then if they need to, they hire in a new batch, fresh and ready to hear more promises that will not be kept; EA's turnover rate in engineering is approximately 50%. This is how EA works. So now we know, now we can move on, right? That seems to be what happens to everyone else. But it's not enough. Because in the end, regardless of what happens with our particular situation, this kind of "business" isn't right, and people need to know about it, which is why I write this today.
If I could get EA CEO Larry Probst on the phone, there are a few things I would ask him. "What's your salary?" would be merely a point of curiosity. The main thing I want to know is, Larry: you do realize what you're doing to your people, right? And you do realize that they ARE people, with physical limits, emotional lives, and families, right? Voices and talents and senses of humor and all that? That when you keep our husbands and wives and children in the office for ninety hours a week, sending them home exhausted and numb and frustrated with their lives, it's not just them you're hurting, but everyone around them, everyone who loves them? When you make your profit calculations and your cost analyses, you know that a great measure of that cost is being paid in raw human dignity, right?
Right?[/b]
Sorry, but after reading this, not only do I now condone the pirating of EA games, I would suggest that no one ever buys their product legitimately ever again...
Where I'm from there is something called the employment act, known commonly everywhere as the "Labour Law". You all know what that is, so I'm not going to expand on that.
I am not allowed to work more than 45 hours a week (9 per day) without going into overtime. Overtime is paid at 1.5 my salary rate and if it's not specified in my contract that I have to work weekends/public holidays, any time worked during them is considered overtime. This is pretty much standard and cannot be changed.. Any job where a contract has been signed is bound by these basic rules.
If that happened to me I would have a field day with them at the commission of arbitration and I would walk out of there with quite a little nest egg.
Employers only try what their workers will let them get away with. So my sympathy for that person is rather limited.
Originally posted by pip@Jan 15 2005, 05:08 PM
Where I'm from there is something called the employment act, known commonly everywhere as the "Labour Law". You all know what that is, so I'm not going to expand on that.
I am not allowed to work more than 45 hours a week (9 per day) without going into overtime. Overtime is paid at 1.5 my salary rate and if it's not specified in my contract that I have to work weekends/public holidays, any time worked during them is considered overtime. This is pretty much standard and cannot be changed.. Any job where a contract has been signed is bound by these basic rules.
If that happened to me I would have a field day with them at the commission of arbitration and I would walk out of there with quite a little nest egg.
Employers only try what their workers will let them get away with. So my sympathy for that person is rather limited.
They may make them enter a enterprize bargening agreement... in which case they could do whatever they want...
You also have to remember that the gaming industry is still a comparitively new one and that organised labour has been all but snuffed out in places like the US...
Originally posted by sanzar@Jan 15 2005, 03:36 PM
Note: Just to be double clear for people who may misunderstand this: I don't support pirating, my point is that a massive company like EA buying exclusive lisence to a gaming genre like the NFL has an effect on other less finacially powerfull company's far more crippling than piracy...
Weve been through this before...
EA Won the Rights in a bidding process, meaning the NFL put up the rights to the Highest Bidder, meaning that EA werent the only one who went after the exclusive deal, no doubt ESPN too also put a bid in...
Originally posted by Ripper+Jan 15 2005, 06:34 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ripper @ Jan 15 2005, 06:34 PM)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-sanzar@Jan 15 2005, 03:36 PM
Note: Just to be double clear for people who may misunderstand this: I don't support pirating, my point is that a massive company like EA buying exclusive lisence to a gaming genre like the NFL has an effect on other less finacially powerfull company's far more crippling than piracy...
Weve been through this before...
EA Won the Rights in a bidding process, meaning the NFL put up the rights to the Highest Bidder, meaning that EA werent the only one who went after the exclusive deal, no doubt ESPN too also put a bid in... [/b]
I wasn't aware of that, however that only means that the NFL has equally as much to answer for... exclusivity will not help the genre in any way shape or form...
DawieDieKabouter
15-01-05, 08:36 AM
I'm a programmer that can relate to the EA-thing, this overwork they are talking about is not just getting tired, they are talking about huge physical pain. After doing one of these crunches, alot of my mucles tied up and made knots in my back and at the top of my neck where your head connects, the back mucles nerve pains extended and makes knots in your shoulders, then it extends to your chest between your ribs, eventially knots finds it's way to your lower ribs. All in all you find yourself at a stage where sitting in a chair for a few minutes makes you get beating pains in your chest, you get shortness of breath, and headaches from neckpains. These doen'st just go away, remember that you still have to work and that holidays are just to short to recover. When I first started with these pains, I once got a heart-attack scare, thus pain in the chest, irregular heartbeat, pain going threw the shoulder and extending threw my right arm, I ended up passed out because my blood circulation was messed. At the hospital I was hooked up to get an ECG-scan, and it was normal, the doctor checked me and told me that it was a panick-attack because of the over-work, blood circulation being cut-off because of the knots, my body saying enough is enough. So I was fine. The disturbing part is that he said that it was very common, alot of people goes threw it everyday. 1 and a half years on and I'm still not fine, at the moment I'm almost at that point again, but luckily my job will have me standing and moving around more this year. I've done physiotherapy and tried to keep on the excersizes they give you, but it is more than a relief than a fixing of the problem. The only way to prevent it is to sit 100% in the right position and take breaks every half hour. When installing a Microsoft keyboard or mouse they have a point where they tell you a bit about RSI, they are not joking when they warn you, they even say that RSI counts for 80% of the reason why people quit their job in the US. All this is not a joke, I'm still young and don't want to live with this disscomfort.
All the people reading that ain't working yet, take this advice, keep away from a all-day desk job, money aint worth the discomfort you could go threw.
Bugger EA, their games are crap anyway, now we know why.
Originally posted by sanzar@Jan 15 2005, 04:36 PM
I just posted this rant in another thread on league unlimited and wondered how many people would agreed with me here:
I agree that pirating should be totally shunned and not accepted... except for special circumstances... special circumstances being EA spending buckets of money to gain exclusive rights over the NFL lisence simply because they couldn't deal with the fact that Madden was made to look ordinary but ESPN 2k5! Now I hate NFL with a passion, but even I would go out and purposely support the pirating of all future EA Madden titles simply because if EA feel justified in taking money and business away from another company simply because their product can no longer compete with others, then why should we as consumers feel inclined to pay for their product, when it was that company's cowardly action that stemmed the flow of competition to that particular genre???
Thoughts?
I stated in numerous other threads that I really have little respect for NFL, but NFL fans have a right to see some competition for their loyalty in the gaming market and EA's effective monopolising of the genre will likely see the games get slack...
Note: Just to be double clear for people who may misunderstand this: I don't support pirating, my point is that a massive company like EA buying exclusive lisence to a gaming genre like the NFL has an effect on other less finacially powerfull company's far more crippling than piracy...
Thou Shalt not steal
Originally posted by Serge@Jan 15 2005, 10:09 PM
Thou Shalt not steal
Robin Hood stole... http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif
Anyway this sort of thing is different... I have a mate who divides up the price of a game between 4 friends and they buy 1 official copy and burn 3 off for the others... This is technically not stealing as they all purchased the game legally, all they are doing is making back ups so they can all play it similatniously.
"I wanna have sex on the beach"
Originally posted by Ripper+Jan 15 2005, 06:34 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ripper @ Jan 15 2005, 06:34 PM)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-sanzar@Jan 15 2005, 03:36 PM
Note: Just to be double clear for people who may misunderstand this: I don't support pirating, my point is that a massive company like EA buying exclusive lisence to a gaming genre like the NFL has an effect on other less finacially powerfull company's far more crippling than piracy...
Weve been through this before...
EA Won the Rights in a bidding process, meaning the NFL put up the rights to the Highest Bidder, meaning that EA werent the only one who went after the exclusive deal, no doubt ESPN too also put a bid in... [/b]
money talks ripper
obviously EA have more $$ than Sega sports - Not ESPN, coz ESPN is just a name of a channel on the cover of a sega game.
Richard Branson has been in Somalia for a week and is getting very hungry
There a bidding auction for a lamb roast, for the whole community and highest bidder wins the food.
Richard Branson dips into his pocket and finds 3 euro which happens to me more than what all of the somalians have put together
Richard wins the food, but we know whom deserves it more!!!
The carriers of the food, should not be setting those types of conditions to win the food...................ie if u got $$$ u win, as oppposed to if u got brains, if u deserve it more, etc etc.
sure EA won it, coz they paid more for it............but does that mean they trul deserve it more............well apparantly not, based on hard NFL enthusiasts.
ESPN 2004 was better then Madden
and apparantly ESPN 2005 beats Madden 2005 again.
And how do u know the EA board didnt approach the NFL, and hint to sell the exclusive rights, in order for EA (a long time friend of NFL, and Madden, voice of NFL, to stay alive in the Madden franchise).
EA may have said - we've scratched ur back, since 1990, its time to scratch our back, coz we are sinking and ESPN and drowning us.
..::ERIC::..
16-01-05, 11:19 PM
Its hard to say. I say no because basicly I don't have a dvd burner or mod-chipped Ps2. I spend like $100 every 3 or 4 months on a new game. However, I can't say I strongly disagree with it when I openly nrub music.
Originally posted by ak47@Jan 17 2005, 10:47 AM
EA may have said - we've scratched ur back, since 1990, its time to scratch our back, coz we are sinking and ESPN and drowning us.
Yes, EA were shitting themselves, ecspecially when they saw the figures where they sold more copies of Madden 2005 in the first week than NFL 2K5 did in the first month...
And maybe... Just maybe, NFL took advantage of an opportuinity to make a quick Billion Dollars...
Originally posted by Ripper+Jan 17 2005, 01:57 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ripper @ Jan 17 2005, 01:57 PM)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-ak47@Jan 17 2005, 10:47 AM
EA may have said - we've scratched ur back, since 1990, its time to scratch our back, coz we are sinking and ESPN and drowning us.
Yes, EA were shitting themselves, ecspecially when they saw the figures where they sold more copies of Madden 2005 in the first week than NFL 2K5 did in the first month...
And maybe... Just maybe, NFL took advantage of an opportuinity to make a quick Billion Dollars... [/b]
it has more to do with market share
it is known ESPN has taken a chunk of market share from Madden
and when u have Maddens worldwide release and ESPN's domestic release (pending rest of the world), u cannot compare quantity of sales - of course a game that is available to the world will sell more, than a game only sold in the USA.
ESPN has only very recently been available outside the USA.
It is also a very known fact ESPN users were ex-maddenites, which is evidence Madden is losing a chunk of market share
of course their sales increase, so does population
market share % is down especially since ESPN's existence
I'm still waiting for ESPN NFL 2K5! Should be released this Friday...
Originally posted by Ripper+Jan 17 2005, 01:57 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ripper @ Jan 17 2005, 01:57 PM)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-ak47@Jan 17 2005, 10:47 AM
EA may have said - we've scratched ur back, since 1990, its time to scratch our back, coz we are sinking and ESPN and drowning us.
Yes, EA were shitting themselves, ecspecially when they saw the figures where they sold more copies of Madden 2005 in the first week than NFL 2K5 did in the first month...
And maybe... Just maybe, NFL took advantage of an opportuinity to make a quick Billion Dollars... [/b]
Why the f*** are you defending them ripper??? Are you stupid or something? YOU DON'T WORK FOR EA!!! You won't see anything, ANYTHING, good come from this! Don't you understand that??? Don't you understand that having the ESPN series actually heightened competition and resulted in better games from both companies? If your a fan of NFL games then this should be devestating to you! As it effectively means EA can slack off in their next 5 installments, safe in the knowledge they have no competition!
Do you get it yet?
Originally posted by sanzar+Jan 17 2005, 05:41 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sanzar @ Jan 17 2005, 05:41 PM)</div>
Originally posted by Ripper@Jan 17 2005, 01:57 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-ak47@Jan 17 2005, 10:47 AM
EA may have said - we've scratched ur back, since 1990, its time to scratch our back, coz we are sinking and ESPN and drowning us.
Yes, EA were shitting themselves, ecspecially when they saw the figures where they sold more copies of Madden 2005 in the first week than NFL 2K5 did in the first month...
And maybe... Just maybe, NFL took advantage of an opportuinity to make a quick Billion Dollars...
Why the f*** are you defending them ripper??? Are you stupid or something? YOU DON'T WORK FOR EA!!! You won't see anything, ANYTHING, good come from this! Don't you understand that??? Don't you understand that having the ESPN series actually heightened competition and resulted in better games from both companies? If your a fan of NFL games then this should be devestating to you! As it effectively means EA can slack off in their next 5 installments, safe in the knowledge they have no competition!
Do you get it yet? [/b]
Not really, because the NFL have a say on what goes out and I highly doubt they are gonna let a piece of shit go out because no doubt they get a cut of whatever profit Madden makes. Besides, ESPN is no loss for me, NFL 2K5 was worse than 2K4.
As long as EA dont try to get an exclusive NBA and NHL Rights ill be happy... (NBA Live and The EA NHL Games are shit)
Originally posted by Ripper+Jan 17 2005, 06:45 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ripper @ Jan 17 2005, 06:45 PM)</div>
Originally posted by sanzar@Jan 17 2005, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Ripper@Jan 17 2005, 01:57 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-ak47@Jan 17 2005, 10:47 AM
EA may have said - we've scratched ur back, since 1990, its time to scratch our back, coz we are sinking and ESPN and drowning us.
Yes, EA were shitting themselves, ecspecially when they saw the figures where they sold more copies of Madden 2005 in the first week than NFL 2K5 did in the first month...
And maybe... Just maybe, NFL took advantage of an opportuinity to make a quick Billion Dollars...
Why the f*** are you defending them ripper??? Are you stupid or something? YOU DON'T WORK FOR EA!!! You won't see anything, ANYTHING, good come from this! Don't you understand that??? Don't you understand that having the ESPN series actually heightened competition and resulted in better games from both companies? If your a fan of NFL games then this should be devestating to you! As it effectively means EA can slack off in their next 5 installments, safe in the knowledge they have no competition!
Do you get it yet?
Not really, because the NFL have a say on what goes out and I highly doubt they are gonna let a piece of shit go out because no doubt they get a cut of whatever profit Madden makes. Besides, ESPN is no loss for me, NFL 2K5 was worse than 2K4.
As long as EA dont try to get an exclusive NBA and NHL Rights ill be happy... (NBA Live and The EA NHL Games are shit) [/b]
forget it ripper
there's only one sport left that EA dominate in - Golf, TW2005
#1NFL - ESPN
#1 NBA - ESPN
#1 NHL - ESPN
YES ESPN DOMINATE US SPORTS, ALL VERSIONS ARE BETTER THAN EA EFFORTS, even the NCAA versions of these sports
#1SOCCER - PES
#1RUGBY - WCR or JLR - EITHER WAY ITS THE SAME BLOKES
#1 FORMULA 1 - SONYS FORMULA 1
#1 GOLF - TW2005
AND SOON THEY WILL LOSE THE MONOPOLY IN CRICKET, MEANING THEY HAVE LOST THAT BATTLE TOO.
Slowly but surely EAsports is sinking to its competitors and u can bet ur bottom dollar they'll try every caniving trick in the corporate book, to stay afloat by officially liscensing every sport to themselves, meaning the better games will have fictional characteristics however supreme gameplay - in the end WE LOSE.
Originally posted by ak47@Jan 18 2005, 08:12 AM
YES ESPN DOMINATE US SPORTS, ALL VERSIONS ARE BETTER THAN EA EFFORTS, even the NCAA versions of these sports
EA Dominate NCAA Football, not sure about Basketball since I havent played March Maddness nor College Hoops
and Madden > ESPN 2K
Originally posted by ak47@Jan 18 2005, 08:12 AM
Slowly but surely EAsports is sinking to its competitors and u can bet ur bottom dollar they'll try every caniving trick in the corporate book, to stay afloat by officially liscensing every sport to themselves, meaning the better games will have fictional characteristics however supreme gameplay - in the end WE LOSE.
Whats the bet you wouldnt mind if ESPN got the rights... would you be carping on about how Evil Sega are and how they try to kill competition and what ever Marxist Lenin Babble you can think of...
CAPITALISM RULES!!
BTW you do know that ESPN & Madden are one and the same?
Ripper - Why are you defending EA so much? I understand you putting the facts right but you seem to like EA?!
Also, can you please show me where they said that the NFL rights were being auctioned off like you said?
Originally posted by Ripper@Jan 18 2005, 06:36 PM
Whats the bet you wouldnt mind if ESPN got the rights... would you be carping on about how Evil Sega are and how they try to kill competition and what ever Marxist Lenin Babble you can think of...
CAPITALISM RULES!!
BTW you do know that ESPN & Madden are one and the same?
Are you really as stupid as you sound ripper??? Or is it all an act?
Capitalism rules?Marxist Lenin babble? Are you really so utterly dense and moronic that you don't realise that Capitalism is the one that thrives competition and communism is where everything is state owned and singular?
As JJ said spastic, what is it that you "like" so much about EA??? Are you seeing any of their profits? Do you work for them? NO!!! And the fact that you are a kiwi and like rugby more than NFL should be more than enough reason for you to loath them!
Originally posted by Ripper@Jan 18 2005, 06:23 PM
and Madden > ESPN 2K
Not according to gamespot...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Employees readying class-action lawsuit against EA
A lawyer representing the plaintiffs addresses a proposed class-action lawsuit seeking unpaid overtime from the world's biggest third-party publisher.
Yesterday, a blog entry from the spouse of a worker at Electronic Arts lashed out against the game giant. "The current mandatory hours are 9am to 10pm--seven days a week--with the occasional Saturday evening off for good behavior (at 6:30pm)," read the post, which went on to claim that EA employees receive no overtime, "comp" time, or additional vacation for their efforts.
The veracity of the claims in the online rant is difficult to confirm. However, GameSpot News decided to investigate the matter--and found that there might be some truth behind the blogger's anger.
Following a tip from an informed source, GameSpot contacted attorney Robert C. Schubert, a partner at the San Francisco law firm Schubert & Reed. He said that he has initiated legal proceedings to start a class-action lawsuit on behalf of a group of EA employees. "We are seeking unpaid overtime for a good number of [EA] employees who weren't [properly] paid," Schubert told GameSpot this afternoon. "EA contends they were exempt," Schubert said. "We contend otherwise."
To recover the money they feel is owed to them, said employees are trying to file a class-action lawsuit against EA seeking overtime pay. On July 29, the complaint Jamie Kirschenbaum vs. Electronic Arts, Inc. was filed in San Mateo Superior Court. Kirschenbaum is one of the members of The Sims 2 design team, although his current employment status at EA could not be clarified as of press time.
However, to initiate a class-action suit, a group must first be first certified as a "class" by the court. Schubert also said that until a class is certified by the court, he couldn't say how many individuals would seek to participate in the legal action. "We haven't been certified as a class yet," he said, admitting that certification "is a big battle."
And it looks like the lines for that battle are already being drawn. GameSpot was sent a copy of an e-mail purportedly sent to Electronic Arts employees over the summer, alerting them to the lawsuit. The e-mail went so far as to inform them that if they chose to participate in the lawsuit by joining the class, if it were to be certified, there would be no repercussions.
The e-mail, while not yet confirmed as authentic, frames the dispute between the proposed class and Electronic Arts as follows:
"On July 29, 2004, a class-action lawsuit was filed against Electronic Arts Inc. ("EA"). This communication responds to earlier e-mail communications from EA management regarding the litigation. The lawsuit alleges that EA improperly classified some of its employees, including 'animators,' 'modelers,' 'texture artists,' 'lighters,' 'background effects artists,' and 'environmental artists' as exempt from overtime, and therefore failed to pay those employees overtime compensation. Plaintiff's action seeks statutory penalties, damages, restitution, and injunctive relief.
"EA denies plaintiff's claim. It is EA's position that it treats its employees fairly and lawfully, and that it has properly classified its employees within the meaning of the law. The plaintiff is seeking to bring this lawsuit on behalf of himself and to represent a proposed class of current and former EA employees as a class action. The court has not yet certified this case as a class action.
"If the case is certified, members of the class will be notified as directed by the court, and may be given the opportunity to be excluded from the class ('opting out'), or to hire their own lawyers to represent them.
"EA will not retaliate against employees for exercising legal rights, including by participating in the proposed class action."
According to Schubert, the most recent action taken by the court was the denial of a motion by EA that would have stopped the certification process in its tracks.
E-mails to Electronic Arts requesting comment had not been returned at press time.[/b]
Yeah your right ripper, what a great company EA are....
Originally posted by Ripper+Jan 18 2005, 06:36 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ripper @ Jan 18 2005, 06:36 PM)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-ak47@Jan 18 2005, 08:12 AM
Slowly but surely EAsports is sinking to its competitors and u can bet ur bottom dollar they'll try every caniving trick in the corporate book, to stay afloat by officially liscensing every sport to themselves, meaning the better games will have fictional characteristics however supreme gameplay - in the end WE LOSE.
Whats the bet you wouldnt mind if ESPN got the rights... would you be carping on about how Evil Sega are and how they try to kill competition and what ever Marxist Lenin Babble you can think of...
CAPITALISM RULES!!
BTW you do know that ESPN & Madden are one and the same? [/b]
doesnt matter to me now http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif
Madden = ESPN
in 2006 we'll have the greatest NFL game of all time
All I wanted was ESPN's hype and presentation, NFL primetime and sportscentre with Maddens franchise!!!!
Now I get it in 2006
http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif
do we know if this new EA and ESPN deal involves all sports or just NFL.
I think it might.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
The agreement announced today is for fifteen years "with an option to terminate after ten years under certain conditions," the statement said. The agreement gives the publisher "exclusive first rights" to all ESPN content for simulation sports games.
Elaborating on that first right option, Gibeau said, "With regards to the first right of refusal, all it means is that if ESPN has a program that we're not interested in making a video game about, they have the opportunity to be able to go and figure out how to produce it, without our participation." However, Gibeau added, "The likelihood of that occurring is very low."[/b]
It says they could Terminate after a Decade under certain conditions... wonder what those would be? They probably have a quota about how many games use all the ESPN stuff and a minimum level of content each game has to have e.t.c
shiznit
20-01-05, 10:02 PM
i dont know why everyone is going after ripper for supporting EA.
Madden is a brilliant game, some people prefer Madden and some people prefer ESPN (personally i prefer ESPN). yes, what EA did was un-ethical but theres no evidence that they broke any laws in doing it. hell, i actually like the Fifa series more than the PES series.
my quiestion to sanzar and alot of the others on here haveing a go at Ripper is... are you using Microsoft Internet Explorer to browse? if so than i dont think you can complain too much about EA's boardroom antics.
Originally posted by JJ-@Jan 18 2005, 07:17 PM
Also, can you please show me where they said that the NFL rights were being auctioned off like you said?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
A source close to the negotiations said it was at a spring 2004 off-site meeting attended by top NFL officials that the league determined it would take the league license exclusive. GameSpot was told the league put the license up for bid and that EA was among as many as five software publishers competing for it. An EA spokesperson said today, "Obviously, exclusives are more expensive. We are most certainly paying a premium."[/b]
Link (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/12/13/news_6114977.html)
4th Paragraph down
Originally posted by shiznit@Jan 21 2005, 11:02 AM
i dont know why everyone is going after ripper for supporting EA.
Madden is a brilliant game, some people prefer Madden and some people prefer ESPN (personally i prefer ESPN). yes, what EA did was un-ethical but theres no evidence that they broke any laws in doing it. hell, i actually like the Fifa series more than the PES series.
my quiestion to sanzar and alot of the others on here haveing a go at Ripper is... are you using Microsoft Internet Explorer to browse? if so than i dont think you can complain too much about EA's boardroom antics.
You have a point with the whole microsoft thing, but microsfts monopolising of the market has given people little choice... Personally though, my next system will be lynx based.
Lol, Linux is worse than Mac, Buggy as hell and even less 3rd Party Support than Apple
Originally posted by Ripper@Jan 21 2005, 08:38 PM
Lol, Linux is worse than Mac, Buggy as hell and even less 3rd Party Support than Apple
Linux is only bad if you don't know how to operate and edit it... If you do, it can be far more stable than windows is.
Canadian_Rugger
21-01-05, 01:41 PM
Sure EA is stamping out the market but thats what business is all about (dominating the competition)
EA with the exception of Rugby and cricket has made some very good sports games. I love the NHL and NFL series and I also like the FIFA series. I don't think production quality will dwindle anytime soon.
If people are so upset with EA and its work practices just don't go work for them its as simple as that. Or form a Union http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif
DawieDieKabouter
23-01-05, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by sanzar+Jan 22 2005, 01:22 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sanzar @ Jan 22 2005, 01:22 AM)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-Ripper@Jan 21 2005, 08:38 PM
Lol, Linux is worse than Mac, Buggy as hell and even less 3rd Party Support than Apple
Linux is only bad if you don't know how to operate and edit it... If you do, it can be far more stable than windows is. [/b]
it can be? it should read that it WILL be. Wait untill you start working with servers and the like...windows just ain't good enough
You guys prob just play games, so, stick to XP.
Trev@Swordfish
24-01-05, 01:16 PM
Going back to the title of this thread ... the answer has to be absolutely not.
Pirating games is illegal.
If you disagree with what EA are doing ... just don't buy their games.
If you disagreed with the business activities of a supermarket eg. they bought up most of the bananas in your country - would that give you the right to walk in their store and steal them. Of course not.
Just don't eat bananas anymore. http://www.therugbyforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif
My 2 pence worth.
I'd have to agree with trev on the whole pirating thing.
But in terms of Linux, I have both Win XP (for games and and other hassles) and Linux (our server, internet etc. etc.)
Originally posted by Trev@Swordfish@Jan 25 2005, 02:16 AM
Pirating games is illegal.
This is true, but so are EA's work practices... I know that 2 wrongs don't make a right, but f*** it! I'd rather just rip them off to be honest!
subsbligh
01-02-05, 11:40 AM
So the main argument in this thread for piracy is that it is ok because EA works it's people into the ground.
Wouldn't more piracy result in less profit; which would inturn result in the need to cut costs and hence work people to the ground??
Alternatvely it means charging more money for the same product.
Which is better?
Originally posted by subsbligh@Feb 2 2005, 12:40 AM
So the main argument in this thread for piracy is that it is ok because EA works it's people into the ground.
Wouldn't more piracy result in less profit; which would inturn result in the need to cut costs and hence work people to the ground??
Alternatvely it means charging more money for the same product.
Which is better?
YEA BUT UR MISSING BIG POINT
The gaming industry is the fastest growing in the world currently.
Their profits are massive, and too big.
apart from their normal salary, they arent reaping any rightful benefits that the boardroom does....employees rightfully deserve awards or bonus etc etc.
at one end u got an avg income of 2,000,000 per annum (plus fringe benefits) and at the other end u got avg income of 40,000 (and 80+hr weeks)........theres no balance.
And this is not too mention, they are breaking the law as an employer anyway.
Pirating in the gaming industry will only dent the inevitable success the industry is in for............it will never sink it, it will never kill it................the profits are that big and the demand is that high, pirating may actually bring in the new markets of the 3rd world countrys that cant afford $100 games.....which in effect increases the demand.
The fact is pirating does exist and always will........and the industry still strives like no other.
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