Do todays players juice up?

[FerraraZ]

Watch a tri nations match from say 1997 and then watch one of last year and I must say that I notice the size and ability of players has increased dramatically. I was wondering if you guys believe that most rugby players use steroids? I dont live in Europe so rugby news here in America is few and far between so I wouldn't know if its more of an accepted practice for rugby players to use suppliments to increase productivity.

[SaintsFan_Webby]

They don't use steroids. Not the majority anyway, and any stupid enough to do so get the bans they deserve.

Players do spend far too much time in the gym and taking protein shkes though. Plus, you have to remember that in 1997 the game had only been professional for 2 years.

[edinburgh_gunner]

There's not a drug problem in rugby and hopefully there won't be.

Personally, I take protein shakes and I do serious weight lifting twice a week and I am alot bigger and developed than most other 16year olds I know. But I am being scouted by Edinburgh so I'm needing as many advantages as I can get in order to get into the squad.

Players today spend alot of time in the gym getting bigger but I think it's a reflection on how competitive the game is.

[DC]

They don't use steroids. Not the majority anyway, and any stupid enough to do so get the bans they deserve.

Players do spend far too much time in the gym and taking protein shkes though. Plus, you have to remember that in 1997 the game had only been professional for 2 years.
[/b]

it's their job to be in that gym training and becoming the strongest,fastest,and most physically prepared men on the field

i don't see how it can be said they are spending to much time in there

[SaintsFan_Webby]

<div class='quotemain'>
They don&#39;t use steroids. Not the majority anyway, and any stupid enough to do so get the bans they deserve.

Players do spend far too much time in the gym and taking protein shkes though. Plus, you have to remember that in 1997 the game had only been professional for 2 years.
[/b]

it&#39;s their job to be in that gym training and becoming the strongest,fastest,and most physically prepared men on the field

i don&#39;t see how it can be said they are spending to much time in there
[/b][/quote]

Do you not wonder why there are far more injuries in todays game compared to the amateur era? It&#39;s because players are now so strong that the game has been taken to a new physical level. One many cannot cope with.

Too much time in the gym has also lead to a decline in skill levels. I would be willing to bet that New Zealand players do not spend as much time in the gym as their English counterparts, but as a result, the skill levels of players in all positions are incredible.

Players with big muscles are not helping the game one bit. I&#39;m sure you take all kinds of supplements which your body, at the age it is, isn&#39;t ready for. Would you take them if you weren&#39;t copying the example of the professionals? I doubt it.

[DC]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
They don&#39;t use steroids. Not the majority anyway, and any stupid enough to do so get the bans they deserve.

Players do spend far too much time in the gym and taking protein shkes though. Plus, you have to remember that in 1997 the game had only been professional for 2 years.
[/b]

it&#39;s their job to be in that gym training and becoming the strongest,fastest,and most physically prepared men on the field

i don&#39;t see how it can be said they are spending to much time in there
[/b][/quote]


Do you not wonder why there are far more injuries in todays game compared to the amateur era? It&#39;s because players are now so strong that the game has been taken to a new physical level. One many cannot cope with.

Too much time in the gym has also lead to a decline in skill levels. I would be willing to bet that New Zealand players do not spend as much time in the gym as their English counterparts, but as a result, the skill levels of players in all positions are incredible.

Players with big muscles are not helping the game one bit. I&#39;m sure you take all kinds of supplements which your body, at the age it is, isn&#39;t ready for. Would you take them if you weren&#39;t copying the example of the professionals? I doubt it.
[/b][/quote]

Yes let me forget that pat sanderson has been in the gym more than jerry collins or ma&#39;a nonu :rolleyes:

http://www.sporting-heroes.net/files_rugby/NONU_Maa_20041204_GH_R.jpg

http://www.sporting-heroes.net/files_rugby/COLLINS_Jerry_20061111_GH_R.jpg

http://www.sporting-heroes.net/files_rugby/SANDERSON_Pat_20051119_GH_L.jpg

That arguement is very wrong should i say so myself.. Sure there are more injuries but the bigger you are the harder you fall, its a fact of the game there are going to be injuries, but lifting also helps prevent a lot of these injuries, i.e. dislocation of joints.

I find it hard to believe that time in the gym decreases skill level. If anything it would make you better.. think it helps with your strength to brush off tackles, speed, and how you ruck, how it is detrimental to your playing ability you point it out to me.

I myself dont take supplements, only the occasional protein shake and i havent had one of those in a few months, all i do is lift and run, i dont lift my legs cause it can be troublesome for my knees (osgood schlotters a few years back)

I also train 7 days a week in the offseason and on season, i lift three times a week, run 4 and do passing and kicking drills daily.. I dont copy off any particular professional in any way, i lift because im small on the field, the weights give me a definite advantage..with the right mix of weights, cardio, and skill training rugby players will reach new heights in terms of skill level and physicality.

The thing is, is that new zealand is so dominant because they combine the rugby intelligence and the strength from weights together so nicely that they mesh instantly to form a very very very dominant unit.

[ALLBLACKS]

My cousin Brent Kite took me to train with the Manly Sea Eagles and they are professional. They dont spend too much time in the Gym at all. They have personal trainers who specialize in getting each player worked up in areas they need. It was 2 Hrs in the Gym or however long it took you to do your work out plan. Then you get a break if you lived Close by you could go home like we did and be back in 3 hrs for speed training and a team run.

Spencer is only in the Gym once or twice a day at the most depending on the time of yr. Creatine and Protein shakes have become part of the game though. From my experience with tworking with personal trainers its not how long you work out, But the way you do. If you just pop in the Gym and lift weights you will end up like a body builder, Not ideal for Rugby. There are techniques so that you become faster and stronger, Not just Big and ripped.

[Ripper]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
They don&#39;t use steroids. Not the majority anyway, and any stupid enough to do so get the bans they deserve.

Players do spend far too much time in the gym and taking protein shkes though. Plus, you have to remember that in 1997 the game had only been professional for 2 years.
[/b]

it&#39;s their job to be in that gym training and becoming the strongest,fastest,and most physically prepared men on the field

i don&#39;t see how it can be said they are spending to much time in there
[/b][/quote]


Do you not wonder why there are far more injuries in todays game compared to the amateur era? It&#39;s because players are now so strong that the game has been taken to a new physical level. One many cannot cope with.

Too much time in the gym has also lead to a decline in skill levels. I would be willing to bet that New Zealand players do not spend as much time in the gym as their English counterparts, but as a result, the skill levels of players in all positions are incredible.

Players with big muscles are not helping the game one bit. I&#39;m sure you take all kinds of supplements which your body, at the age it is, isn&#39;t ready for. Would you take them if you weren&#39;t copying the example of the professionals? I doubt it.
[/b][/quote]

Yes let me forget that pat sanderson has been in the gym more than jerry collins or ma&#39;a nonu :rolleyes:

That arguement is very wrong should i say so myself.. Sure there are more injuries but the bigger you are the harder you fall, its a fact of the game there are going to be injuries, but lifting also helps prevent a lot of these injuries, i.e. dislocation of joints.

I find it hard to believe that time in the gym decreases skill level. If anything it would make you better.. think it helps with your strength to brush off tackles, speed, and how you ruck, how it is detrimental to your playing ability you point it out to me.

I myself dont take supplements, only the occasional protein shake and i havent had one of those in a few months, all i do is lift and run, i dont lift my legs cause it can be troublesome for my knees (osgood schlotters a few years back)

I also train 7 days a week in the offseason and on season, i lift three times a week, run 4 and do passing and kicking drills daily.. I dont copy off any particular professional in any way, i lift because im small on the field, the weights give me a definite advantage..with the right mix of weights, cardio, and skill training rugby players will reach new heights in terms of skill level and physicality.

The thing is, is that new zealand is so dominant because they combine the rugby intelligence and the strength from weights together so nicely that they mesh instantly to form a very very very dominant unit.
[/b][/quote]
The size difference I would say is due to genetics - generally they are stronger, bigger and faster than your average little pasty whiteboy Englishman.

[BigTen]

Do today&#39;s players juice up? Interesting question but based on the amount of players there are and the rarity that players get "caught" and banned I would say no.

However I would add that players that do not play at a professional level don&#39;t get tested for drugs. And therefore I would expect that some of these players that struggle to lift their strength, weight and endurance up to the next level would be strongly tempted to find something that gave them a helping hand.

Or maybe a player that is coming back from injury and can&#39;t quite get back to 100% may turn to something illegal to help them out.

Overall I would say that amongst the top echelon of rugby players drug use is not something that is done but once you get below that level - seriously who knows!

[SaintsFan_Webby]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
They don&#39;t use steroids. Not the majority anyway, and any stupid enough to do so get the bans they deserve.

Players do spend far too much time in the gym and taking protein shkes though. Plus, you have to remember that in 1997 the game had only been professional for 2 years.
[/b]

it&#39;s their job to be in that gym training and becoming the strongest,fastest,and most physically prepared men on the field

i don&#39;t see how it can be said they are spending to much time in there
[/b][/quote]


Do you not wonder why there are far more injuries in todays game compared to the amateur era? It&#39;s because players are now so strong that the game has been taken to a new physical level. One many cannot cope with.

Too much time in the gym has also lead to a decline in skill levels. I would be willing to bet that New Zealand players do not spend as much time in the gym as their English counterparts, but as a result, the skill levels of players in all positions are incredible.

Players with big muscles are not helping the game one bit. I&#39;m sure you take all kinds of supplements which your body, at the age it is, isn&#39;t ready for. Would you take them if you weren&#39;t copying the example of the professionals? I doubt it.
[/b][/quote]

Yes let me forget that pat sanderson has been in the gym more than jerry collins or ma&#39;a nonu :rolleyes:

That arguement is very wrong should i say so myself.. Sure there are more injuries but the bigger you are the harder you fall, its a fact of the game there are going to be injuries, but lifting also helps prevent a lot of these injuries, i.e. dislocation of joints.

I find it hard to believe that time in the gym decreases skill level. If anything it would make you better.. think it helps with your strength to brush off tackles, speed, and how you ruck, how it is detrimental to your playing ability you point it out to me.

I myself dont take supplements, only the occasional protein shake and i havent had one of those in a few months, all i do is lift and run, i dont lift my legs cause it can be troublesome for my knees (osgood schlotters a few years back)

I also train 7 days a week in the offseason and on season, i lift three times a week, run 4 and do passing and kicking drills daily.. I dont copy off any particular professional in any way, i lift because im small on the field, the weights give me a definite advantage..with the right mix of weights, cardio, and skill training rugby players will reach new heights in terms of skill level and physicality.

The thing is, is that new zealand is so dominant because they combine the rugby intelligence and the strength from weights together so nicely that they mesh instantly to form a very very very dominant unit.
[/b][/quote]

In reply to Collins or Nonu I simply pick out the likes of Andrew Sheridan. Individual examples mean squat. I&#39;m sure Ben Cohen can bench press more than Joe Rokocoko, but I know who I&#39;d rather have in my team at the moment.

Protein shake = supplement. You say you only take them occasionally, but why at all? I&#39;m guessing it&#39;s not because your parents told you it was a good idea.

I&#39;m not just picking my argument out of thin air - ex players have come out and said that players focus too much on strength, hence falling skill levels.

Your argument is flawed: weight training does not increase speed, sprint training does. Look at the fastest wongers in the world. I doubt they can lift more than Jerry Collins, but I sure as hell know who I would back in a race. Weight training does not increase your rucking proficiency, it&#39;s all about the technique. The front row of a scrum is a blinding obvious example of technique over bulk. Tom Smith is probably one of the smaller props in professional rugby, but for years he has been able to take apart his opposite number. This isn&#39;t because he goes to the gym to lift and push things non-stop, it&#39;s because he ups his skill level rather than just his muscle mass.

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
They don&#39;t use steroids. Not the majority anyway, and any stupid enough to do so get the bans they deserve.

Players do spend far too much time in the gym and taking protein shkes though. Plus, you have to remember that in 1997 the game had only been professional for 2 years.
[/b]

it&#39;s their job to be in that gym training and becoming the strongest,fastest,and most physically prepared men on the field

i don&#39;t see how it can be said they are spending to much time in there
[/b][/quote]


Do you not wonder why there are far more injuries in todays game compared to the amateur era? It&#39;s because players are now so strong that the game has been taken to a new physical level. One many cannot cope with.

Too much time in the gym has also lead to a decline in skill levels. I would be willing to bet that New Zealand players do not spend as much time in the gym as their English counterparts, but as a result, the skill levels of players in all positions are incredible.

Players with big muscles are not helping the game one bit. I&#39;m sure you take all kinds of supplements which your body, at the age it is, isn&#39;t ready for. Would you take them if you weren&#39;t copying the example of the professionals? I doubt it.
[/b][/quote]

Yes let me forget that pat sanderson has been in the gym more than jerry collins or ma&#39;a nonu :rolleyes:

That arguement is very wrong should i say so myself.. Sure there are more injuries but the bigger you are the harder you fall, its a fact of the game there are going to be injuries, but lifting also helps prevent a lot of these injuries, i.e. dislocation of joints.

I find it hard to believe that time in the gym decreases skill level. If anything it would make you better.. think it helps with your strength to brush off tackles, speed, and how you ruck, how it is detrimental to your playing ability you point it out to me.

I myself dont take supplements, only the occasional protein shake and i havent had one of those in a few months, all i do is lift and run, i dont lift my legs cause it can be troublesome for my knees (osgood schlotters a few years back)

I also train 7 days a week in the offseason and on season, i lift three times a week, run 4 and do passing and kicking drills daily.. I dont copy off any particular professional in any way, i lift because im small on the field, the weights give me a definite advantage..with the right mix of weights, cardio, and skill training rugby players will reach new heights in terms of skill level and physicality.

The thing is, is that new zealand is so dominant because they combine the rugby intelligence and the strength from weights together so nicely that they mesh instantly to form a very very very dominant unit. [/b][/quote]

Crawl oput of rippers prostate. He&#39;ll only give you a disease.

You&#39;ll find that there is a thing such as "over traning" and it is currently prominant since the begining of the pro era, hense why at any one time 25% of the GP&#39;s players will be injured. this happens more in the NH then the SH because of the different nature the game has here; It&#39;s much harder here to play an effective backs game, so it&#39;s prodominantly forwards based and the game has turned into a collision sport more than a contact sport since players are fitter, stronger and faster now.

So being as they are taking much more of a pummeling each saturday, without a propper recouperation period they are carring much more wear and tear and are far more prone to serious injuries. You may train 7 days a week, but the standard of your opponants aren&#39;t worthy to lace a pro players boots, so in turn you&#39;re less likely to get hurt.

[O'Rothlain]

Let&#39;s just look at the pictures of the guys. Are they bigger? Yes. Are they Steroid Bigger? No. I played college football with some guys on steroids, and at my current gymn there are about 5-6 guys using steroids. The results are way different.

[DC]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
They don&#39;t use steroids. Not the majority anyway, and any stupid enough to do so get the bans they deserve.

Players do spend far too much time in the gym and taking protein shkes though. Plus, you have to remember that in 1997 the game had only been professional for 2 years.
[/b]

it&#39;s their job to be in that gym training and becoming the strongest,fastest,and most physically prepared men on the field

i don&#39;t see how it can be said they are spending to much time in there
[/b][/quote]


Do you not wonder why there are far more injuries in todays game compared to the amateur era? It&#39;s because players are now so strong that the game has been taken to a new physical level. One many cannot cope with.

Too much time in the gym has also lead to a decline in skill levels. I would be willing to bet that New Zealand players do not spend as much time in the gym as their English counterparts, but as a result, the skill levels of players in all positions are incredible.

Players with big muscles are not helping the game one bit. I&#39;m sure you take all kinds of supplements which your body, at the age it is, isn&#39;t ready for. Would you take them if you weren&#39;t copying the example of the professionals? I doubt it.
[/b][/quote]

Yes let me forget that pat sanderson has been in the gym more than jerry collins or ma&#39;a nonu :rolleyes:

That arguement is very wrong should i say so myself.. Sure there are more injuries but the bigger you are the harder you fall, its a fact of the game there are going to be injuries, but lifting also helps prevent a lot of these injuries, i.e. dislocation of joints.

I find it hard to believe that time in the gym decreases skill level. If anything it would make you better.. think it helps with your strength to brush off tackles, speed, and how you ruck, how it is detrimental to your playing ability you point it out to me.

I myself dont take supplements, only the occasional protein shake and i havent had one of those in a few months, all i do is lift and run, i dont lift my legs cause it can be troublesome for my knees (osgood schlotters a few years back)

I also train 7 days a week in the offseason and on season, i lift three times a week, run 4 and do passing and kicking drills daily.. I dont copy off any particular professional in any way, i lift because im small on the field, the weights give me a definite advantage..with the right mix of weights, cardio, and skill training rugby players will reach new heights in terms of skill level and physicality.

The thing is, is that new zealand is so dominant because they combine the rugby intelligence and the strength from weights together so nicely that they mesh instantly to form a very very very dominant unit.
[/b][/quote]

In reply to Collins or Nonu I simply pick out the likes of Andrew Sheridan. Individual examples mean squat. I&#39;m sure Ben Cohen can bench press more than Joe Rokocoko, but I know who I&#39;d rather have in my team at the moment.

Protein shake = supplement. You say you only take them occasionally, but why at all? I&#39;m guessing it&#39;s not because your parents told you it was a good idea.

I&#39;m not just picking my argument out of thin air - ex players have come out and said that players focus too much on strength, hence falling skill levels.

Your argument is flawed: weight training does not increase speed, sprint training does. Look at the fastest wongers in the world. I doubt they can lift more than Jerry Collins, but I sure as hell know who I would back in a race. Weight training does not increase your rucking proficiency, it&#39;s all about the technique. The front row of a scrum is a blinding obvious example of technique over bulk. Tom Smith is probably one of the smaller props in professional rugby, but for years he has been able to take apart his opposite number. This isn&#39;t because he goes to the gym to lift and push things non-stop, it&#39;s because he ups his skill level rather than just his muscle mass.
[/b][/quote]

Squats, Calf Raises, Dead Lifts all forms of lifting will make you faster when done apporpriately. Plyometrics a form of jumping/lifting using your own body weight will make you faster if done appropriaely. Every single player on the all blacks does Sprints, Squats, Calfs, Dead Lifts, and more than likely Plyometrics.

Actually my parents suggested the protein shakes. I only take them after a big workout where i have increased a good deal of weight on maybe a few of the lifts i do. Usually they cut down on the time for recovery and leave you with less of a lactic acid pain loaded feeling the next day.

[SaintsFan_Webby]

Actually my parents suggested the protein shakes. I only take them after a big workout where i have increased a good deal of weight on maybe a few of the lifts i do. Usually they cut down on the time for recovery and leave you with less of a lactic acid pain loaded feeling the next day.
[/b]

You&#39;re not even an adult yet. Your body isn&#39;t ready for adult training. I&#39;m 18 but wouldn&#39;t dream of spending that much of my life in the gym (I also find it very boring, which doesn&#39;t help) - it&#39;s far healthier to let your natural recovery time elapse before you train again.

[DC]

<div class='quotemain'>
Actually my parents suggested the protein shakes. I only take them after a big workout where i have increased a good deal of weight on maybe a few of the lifts i do. Usually they cut down on the time for recovery and leave you with less of a lactic acid pain loaded feeling the next day.
[/b]

You&#39;re not even an adult yet. Your body isn&#39;t ready for adult training. I&#39;m 18 but wouldn&#39;t dream of spending that much of my life in the gym (I also find it very boring, which doesn&#39;t help) - it&#39;s far healthier to let your natural recovery time elapse before you train again.
[/b][/quote]

I love lifting, i think its really actually quite fun..

[SaintsFan_Webby]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'>
Actually my parents suggested the protein shakes. I only take them after a big workout where i have increased a good deal of weight on maybe a few of the lifts i do. Usually they cut down on the time for recovery and leave you with less of a lactic acid pain loaded feeling the next day.
[/b]

You&#39;re not even an adult yet. Your body isn&#39;t ready for adult training. I&#39;m 18 but wouldn&#39;t dream of spending that much of my life in the gym (I also find it very boring, which doesn&#39;t help) - it&#39;s far healthier to let your natural recovery time elapse before you train again.
[/b][/quote]

I love lifting, i think its really actually quite fun..
[/b][/quote]

I can see how the variation and mental challenge it provides could be very stimulating.

[Rugby_Cymru]

Protein shake = supplement. You say you only take them occasionally, but why at all? I&#39;m guessing it&#39;s not because your parents told you it was a good idea.
[/b]

What do you mean "why at all?"?
I am on DC&#39;s side here. DC may not be an adult yet, but it&#39;s proven that youngsters will benefit greatly from lifting weights (not excessively heavy ones, of course) and that it only helps with the growth process rather than stunting their growth as so many people believe. A kids growth is stunted only if they do heavy weights.
Have a look around (at least in my area) schools are encouraging kids to use weight machines etc. Honestly it&#39;s good for them.
Now you do understand the need for protein, right?
If DC didn&#39;t take protein after his workout then his body would experience muscle breakdown. He&#39;s decided (and advisedly so) to work out in the gym, therefore his body needs replenishment...this comes in the form of protein shakes.
I mean, what happens to you if you don&#39;t eat? Your body goes for your reserves - it&#39;s a last resort, but it&#39;s willing to do so to survive. If DC didn&#39;t take a protein shake wtihin 20 mins after workout then he would most certainly have to eat very soon after, otherwise his whole gym session would have just gone to waste because the muscles need to repair and the body wouldn&#39;t be able to do so because it doens&#39;t have the nutrients with which to do so. The body uses protein fibres to repair and when it has been through a tough workout it will have already used up quite a bit of protein to help it, but post-work out it needs a boost of protein and this comes (quickly) in the form of whey protein.
I am quite passionate about the gym and all the benefits it has and how to make those benefits as effective as possible.
Both me and the boys in work wake up to a protein shake, then have breakfast. Have another protein shake at 11am. Lunch at 1pm. Potein shake 1hr/30mins prior to work out. Protein shake 20 mins after work out. Evening meal. Late night (carb free(healthy)) snack. Whey protein mixed with milk OR Casein protein right before bed.
This is a constant (and balanced) intake of protein, carbs and sugars designed to meet our training.

If i were to say anything to DC it wouldn&#39;t be to lighten off, infact i&#39;d tell you to keep working just as hard as you are and even push yourself further. Also, up your intake of protein. The more you eat the bigger you&#39;ll get. FACT. But control what you eat and when you eat it and then you&#39;ll get big in the way you want (especially considering you&#39;re 16...perfectly old enough to start weight lifting and packing on those lb&#39;s of muscle.)
A minimum should in my eyes should be that you should take a protein shake after every work out.




...it&#39;s far healthier to let your natural recovery time elapse before you train again.
[/b]

How did you come to the conclusion that it&#39;s "healthier for you?"
There&#39;s nothing UNNATURAL about taking protein shakes. Having a protein shake IS allowing your natural recovery time to work. There is nothing "healthier" about avoiding protein shakes, trust me.
As long as your not "roiding it up" increasing your recovery rate thanks to increased testosterone levels then taking the protein is ideal.


I don&#39;t mean to sound over-critical, but i get the feeling that you are arguing an issue that you haven&#39;t done any reading on and you are bringing DC down on a subject which he&#39;s is mostly correct on.

Plus, i say, copy the professional rugby players.
Better than copying Jay Cutler or Ronnie Coleman!
The rugby players are doing it right.

Supplement does NOT = steroid-esque drug.

[DC]

I was thinking of starting by drinking the whey protein shakes before my workouts as i used to do, mix it with a little milk and it can really do wonders for you. Mine actually taste pretty good to!!

The reason i enjoy lifting weights is because every time i put up a rep i think each one of these is making me better than my opposing number in the league and anyone im up against in the country. It is such a satisfying feeling being able to put up weight you had been struggling with.

Heres what i lift:
Bench 165 lbs
Curl 25 lbs
Lat Pull Down 200
Tricep Pull Down 85
Milatary Press 75... its hard!!!
Shrugs not really a accurate measurment as i dont have enough weight but i do a 30 in each hand and just build up the muscle
Tricep Behind the Head Not Sure What They Are Called 30
Alt Curls 20 lbs
Calf Raises

then i do Nordic Track Trainer with decent tension, a great leg workout..

[SaintsFan_Webby]

Yeah I know nothing, ignore me.

I haven&#39;t seen anyone I know put themselves out of rugby for life by pushing their body too hard too early.

Nope.

I haven&#39;t seen anyone admitted to hospital for overuse of shakes et al (not supplements apparently)

As for the need for protein - eat more red meat!

Copy the training of professional players at your age and you&#39;ll end up in the same situation as Jonny Wilkinson, crippled by injury in your mid-twenties.

[Rugby_Cymru]

That&#39;a a pretty closed minded argument.

I&#39;m not endorsing over-training, not in the slightest.
Every body needs rest. A body part should always receive 2/3 days rest after a work out and if you organise your schedule properly you can achieve that and still work out 6 days a week.
But it&#39;s really helpful for your body if you can take of 4/5 days totally free from training every few months - altho that&#39;s tough coz the gym is so addictive.

Eat more red meat? Yeah, fair enough, but do you have any idea how slow it takes to digest and for the protein fibres to get to the muscles? Evidently you don&#39;t.
A protein shake is ideal. Whey protein is absorbed quickly and will help you out.
Plus, if you want more protein, just try and eat more red meat:
1) You&#39;ll see how tough it is to up your meal counts per day.
2) All that red meat will do WONDERS for your body!!! :rolleyes:

Ok, Johnny Wilkinson is your example.
My example is ever other player in academies, just left academies, youngesters in the game etc etc.
Johnny Wilkinson confesses that he trains obsessively...who else does that?
No one...and i doubt DC is doing that either.
Players are dedicated to their careers, but they don&#39;t get crippled in their game because of their strict and tough regime.
You&#39;ve got to push yourself to reach new plateau&#39;s.
Don&#39;t let yourself confuse "hard training" with "over-triaining".






I was thinking of starting by drinking the whey protein shakes before my workouts as i used to do, mix it with a little milk and it can really do wonders for you. Mine actually taste pretty good to!!

The reason i enjoy lifting weights is because every time i put up a rep i think each one of these is making me better than my opposing number in the league and anyone im up against in the country. It is such a satisfying feeling being able to put up weight you had been struggling with.

Heres what i lift:
Bench 165 lbs
Curl 25 lbs
Lat Pull Down 200
Tricep Pull Down 85
Milatary Press 75... its hard!!!
Shrugs not really a accurate measurment as i dont have enough weight but i do a 30 in each hand and just build up the muscle
Tricep Behind the Head Not Sure What They Are Called 30
Alt Curls 20 lbs
Calf Raises

then i do Nordic Track Trainer with decent tension, a great leg workout..
[/b]

Yeah, using milk wtih your protein shake is a good idea. Milk has the casein protein in it and it has a slow release time. If you take protein shake with milk about an hour before training, you will see the benefits.
If you take it any sooner you will be getting the protein AFTER yor workout...but during the work out there won&#39;t be much in supply.
I personally advise shake after work out...to be taken with water.

[SaintsFan_Webby]

At 16, you should not be training like a professional though. That&#39;s my point.

It&#39;s unnatural, a 16 year old body isn&#39;t build for it. At that age the body is still growing and changing, it shouldn&#39;t be disrupted by extra levels of protein.

You wouldn&#39;t advocate drinking alcohol to a 13 year old, because their liver is not able to cope with it at the age. Putting strain on the muscles while they are still growing is not a good thing, but clearly this is just my opinion.

[DC]

At 16, you should not be training like a professional though. That&#39;s my point.

It&#39;s unnatural, a 16 year old body isn&#39;t build for it. At that age the body is still growing and changing, it shouldn&#39;t be disrupted by extra levels of protein.

You wouldn&#39;t advocate drinking alcohol to a 13 year old, because their liver is not able to cope with it at the age. Putting strain on the muscles while they are still growing is not a good thing, but clearly this is just my opinion.
[/b]
Its more a 17 year old as my birthday is in about a week..

but my body is perfectly fine with the weights i do, hell they even reccomend that you dont start weight training until after you are 12 or 13 years old, its really not that bad..

[Rugby_Cymru]

If that is really your opinion then i simply ask you to read up on some fitness sites/magazines.

Training like a profession at 16 is not the way to go, of course it&#39;s not.
Hell, i couldn&#39;t even take training like a professional and i&#39;m 24! But you are right about a 16 year old training that hard. It shouldn&#39;t be done and neither do i condone it.
I&#39;m simply telling DC to push himself.
He&#39;ll be nowhere near the level of a pro.

A protein shake a day isn&#39;t exactly over-dosing on protein.
If he&#39;s working out then he&#39;s using protein to aid his workout and musclar development. Because he is using these protein fibres he needs to replace what was used in order to restore balance.

Honestly, a protein shake is basically a liquid form of eating, say, another chicken breast in your day.
Raising and lowering your levels of protein, carbs, sugars occur everday.
If you were to add another meal to your diet then it&#39;s not exactly gonna have an illeffect on your body. If your training, then your body is going to appreciate it and use it to benefit you.

Protein shake is NOT a meal replacement, but it is a quick and effective alternative to having to eat for the purpose of aiding your muscles in recovery.
It&#39;s all about sustainance. It&#39;s all about biology. And it&#39;s all healthy, whether you&#39;re 16 or 80.

[DC]

Yeah I know nothing, ignore me.

I haven&#39;t seen anyone I know put themselves out of rugby for life by pushing their body too hard too early.

Nope.

I haven&#39;t seen anyone admitted to hospital for overuse of shakes et al (not supplements apparently)

As for the need for protein - eat more red meat!

Copy the training of professional players at your age and you&#39;ll end up in the same situation as Jonny Wilkinson, crippled by injury in your mid-twenties.
[/b]

You can push yourself to hard to early, but just lifting isnt going to injure you unless your doing it so wrong that it does.

Jonny wasnt injured because of training... hell his injuries are what, Neck, Knees? Thats not as a result of training though.

Studs catching and neck being pushed into a wrong position to create a injury arent exactly a result of training

[SaintsFan_Webby]

Jonny wasnt injured because of training... hell his injuries are what, Neck, Knees? Thats not as a result of training though.
[/b]

He screwed up a major muscle in leg because he spent too much time practising kicking. I kid you not.

[DC]

yea his groin, i forgot about that

but even he said it was because of his technique, it put to much strain on it.. nothing to do with training

[allblacksfreak]

well, i take protein supplements and eat loads of red meat... and i am still alive..... lol...

[Caledfwlch]

did jonny kill off his sperm count in the process?

[O'Rothlain]

you&#39;d be supprised at what a constant protein shake/creatin mix can do for you. The summer before my junior year of college football, I did nothing but work out, take in loads of protein and the suggested doses of creatin. I put on over 35 lbs of muscle in just 3 months. All my weight max&#39;s went up and I felt on top of the world at the start of the season.
Supplements are essential to maximizing your workout. I would never suggest that anyone mess with anything that has to do with testosterone boosting, though. Leave that crap alone...it will only harm you in the end.

[Canadian_Rugby_Guy]

My nutrition consists more in trying to eat as much as possible and as healthy as possible. I take my protein in from natural products as opposed to the powders (I figure I can wait a bit). Right now I train to strengthen the joints more then actually gain weight at least to strengthen the knees. What is really getting athletes in general is the drive to get big and quick without paying attention to the smaller details, I agree that training hard is essential to make it to the top, I myself train 4 days a week deadlift or squat on each day with a short chest and arms session at the end. My cardio is done on fridays with some interval training and short sprints while carrying a ball. Right now I&#39;m a light bastard, and I continue to train. all this to say that both sides of this argument have a point. I would hesitate to use powders too extensively at 16, (remember to drink alot of water or else you get kidney stones) the essential is a good diet and a firm base to really start building muscle when you&#39;re older.

[All Blacks]

There is nothing wrong with supplements and weight training. The game would not be advancing if players did not train their bodies to play better. Supplements are not bad either. They are just to supplement their diet to make sure players are getting the right nutrition. And whoever posted that the stregnth and size of players is making it difficult for others to cope with, that is a silly comment. If they are not dedicated or motivated to improve their skill and body to be able to cope with others, why play the game? :o



My nutrition consists more in trying to eat as much as possible and as healthy as possible. I take my protein in from natural products as opposed to the powders (I figure I can wait a bit). Right now I train to strengthen the joints more then actually gain weight at least to strengthen the knees. What is really getting athletes in general is the drive to get big and quick without paying attention to the smaller details, I agree that training hard is essential to make it to the top, I myself train 4 days a week deadlift or squat on each day with a short chest and arms session at the end. My cardio is done on fridays with some interval training and short sprints while carrying a ball. Right now I&#39;m a light bastard, and I continue to train. all this to say that both sides of this argument have a point. I would hesitate to use powders too extensively at 16, (remember to drink alot of water or else you get kidney stones) the essential is a good diet and a firm base to really start building muscle when you&#39;re older.
[/b]


Dude if your scared of drinking protein shakes stop eating. Protein shakes will not give you kidney stones. Any protein not absorb gets crapped out and protein is essential in building and repairing muscle. Supplements which players take such as Creatine if not used correctly can damage kidneys. But as you said drinking enough water with creatine prevents it. But protein powder is not something to be affraid of using. Parents will be hesitant of aggreeing with your use of it because there is this thought that if it isnt natural it will harm you. Not saying you should use it but im saying dont be affraid to.



you&#39;d be supprised at what a constant protein shake/creatin mix can do for you. The summer before my junior year of college football, I did nothing but work out, take in loads of protein and the suggested doses of creatin. I put on over 35 lbs of muscle in just 3 months. All my weight max&#39;s went up and I felt on top of the world at the start of the season.
Supplements are essential to maximizing your workout. I would never suggest that anyone mess with anything that has to do with testosterone boosting, though. Leave that crap alone...it will only harm you in the end.
[/b]


Ive been on protein/carb mix and creatine for the last 8 months now and put on roughly 10kg. Something else which will help is multi vitamins. I agree with you on the Test booster aswell, especially during teen years no need to use it as your body produces heaps of testosterone.

[BokMagic]

I actually agree fully on the points raised re- overtraining and starting with weights at a too early age. I was actually guilty of exactly the same thing in my mid-teens, hence I ended up carrying some dodgy knees and a crocked shoulder into my early twenties- and my form dipped as a consequence. Wrt creatine and protein supplements- did you know that at the recommended creatine dosage, you are actually consuming the equivalent of 7kg of red meat? This is an actual fact- I researched the subject extensively while studying pharmacy, and fortunately stopped using the stuff early in my twenties.

Does anyone remember the old Bok skipper Corne Krige? He ended up suffering from acute kidney failure at the tender age of 29, the reason being over-zealous use of creatine.

Look, I`m not against weight training at all- but rather start with it in your very late teens or preferably early twenties, once you have stopped growing in height. Until that time, rather use your own body-weight in exercise- doing loads of sets of chin-ups, push-ups and dips will certainly improve your overall strength to exactly the same effect.

Once you start with weight training, also do your major strength work in the off-season, and rather look at using strength exercises eg the squat and the clean&jerk, as opposed to purely building bulk with exercises like the bench-press or the bicep curls.

[DC]

yea creatine can be nasty shit

i know some guys who were on it for american football, they got bigger but it wasnt all muscle, as you have to drink tons of water with it they gained fat and water weight

i wouldnt use it, its somewhat beneficial but not as good as protein in my opinion.. whey protein is the best to use.

[Canadian_Rugby_Guy]

actually to respond to above about not eating at all. When you use protein, there is a deposit of uric acid which comes out in your urine. too much of this substance without any water todilute causes stones. It&#39;s not the only thing that can build up in your kidneys with poor hydration. but drinking water becomes more of an issue when you pack more nutrients into your body. I have seen people on protein supplements develop some pretty serious illnesses due to malnutrition, caused by the protein supplements? maybe not so much, but if the use of the supplements begins replacing meals, then it&#39;s a bad thing. and trust me, that can happen.

[O'Rothlain]

yea creatine can be nasty shit

i know some guys who were on it for american football, they got bigger but it wasnt all muscle, as you have to drink tons of water with it they gained fat and water weight

i wouldnt use it, its somewhat beneficial but not as good as protein in my opinion.. whey protein is the best to use.
[/b]
Use both together...
Protein helps build muscle, creatin aids in recovery time and maximizing energy usage, and water retention.
Using them together has great benifits.
Creatin will cause you to put on water weight, and will give you gas at first!

[All Blacks]

actually to respond to above about not eating at all. When you use protein, there is a deposit of uric acid which comes out in your urine. too much of this substance without any water todilute causes stones. It&#39;s not the only thing that can build up in your kidneys with poor hydration. but drinking water becomes more of an issue when you pack more nutrients into your body. I have seen people on protein supplements develop some pretty serious illnesses due to malnutrition, caused by the protein supplements? maybe not so much, but if the use of the supplements begins replacing meals, then it&#39;s a bad thing. and trust me, that can happen.
[/b]


Yes but noone should even think about supplements if their diet is poor. You are more then likely correct, but it is easily avoided if you have a good diet. Thats what i was getting at before about not being afraid, becaue if you have a good diet and get all the right vitamins and minerals the protein is only going to work to your benifit. Its if you decide to drink soft drink, junk foods, take away on a regular basis your diet is going to start screwing with your body and the added protein isnt going to used to its full potential then problems start appearing because of an uneven balance in your body.

[ak47]

My cousin Brent Kite took me to train with the Manly Sea Eagles and they are professional.
[/b]

:o

WTF :o

Tell him to come back to the RAIDERS!!!!!

:wall:

:cryy:

[ALLBLACKS]

LOL well Hes from Canberra so it would make sense aye, But Canberra didnt look after him very well, especially after the Inj. St George Gave him his chance to shine.Now with Manly hes starting to get some Honors so I think Manly is best right now.

[ak47]

just another example of how the Raiders breed them, and bleed them

Hopeless management......when we lost Wiki, the whole fanbase lost faith in upper management.

[Canadian_Rugger]

Nothing wrong with lifting at all

Been doing it since I was 16 not just for rugby but for ice hockey aswell.

I&#39;m not a big guy either 5&#39;11 180lbs

I put 20lbs on from the gym and those 20lbs allowed me to be able to compete in university rugby. Also I am 19 and am in the military and without strength training and the gym I would not be able to hack my job as an infanteer.

Not that it matter cuz my back and joints are all gonna be shot by the time I&#39;m 30 anyways god I love the army :-D

[fcukernaut]

They don&#39;t use steroids. Not the majority anyway, and any stupid enough to do so get the bans they deserve.[/b]

I&#39;ll start off with an on-topic response.

I think we&#39;d be naive to be believe that players aren&#39;t using steroids, HGH, ect. It&#39;s been proven time and again that players juice. That&#39;s a part of sport that will always be there, that urge to cheat to better your opponent. Now is it on the level of what baseball was a few years ago or what weight lifters and cyclists are doing? No, but I&#39;d be willing to bet that a solid 10% are juicing, maybe more.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("DC")</div>
I find it hard to believe that time in the gym decreases skill level. If anything it would make you better.. think it helps with your strength to brush off tackles, speed, and how you ruck, how it is detrimental to your playing ability you point it out to me.[/b]

Well, I guess it&#39;s a balance thing. If you&#39;re spending more time in the gym than you are on the practice field, than yes it will decrease your skill level. At the end of the day rugby is not like the o-line of a football team, you don&#39;t need to be just strong. Rugby takes a high level of skill and intelligence, far more than just being stronger than your opponent.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Ripper")</div>
The size difference I would say is due to genetics - generally they are stronger, bigger and faster than your average little pasty whiteboy Englishman.[/b]

Yeah, that comparison wasn&#39;t fair. Jerry Collins and Nonu are what I consider "genetic freaks". They are in the same boat as Vernon Davis of the San Fransisco 49er&#39;s. He&#39;s 6&#39;5 250pounds and runs a 4.3 40 yard dash. That is just not right. God, if white people didn&#39;t get a nice advantage in life, I&#39;d wish I were black.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("O&#39;Rothlain")</div>
Let&#39;s just look at the pictures of the guys. Are they bigger? Yes. Are they Steroid Bigger? No. I played college football with some guys on steroids, and at my current gymn there are about 5-6 guys using steroids. The results are way different.[/b]

That&#39;s an uneducated statement. There are different forms of steroids that do different things to your body. Look at the likes of Marion Jones in track and Raphael Palmeiro in baseball. Neither of them are stalky or tanked, but both are steroid users. Different juice and different training regimes do different things to the body.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("DC")</div>
Usually they cut down on the time for recovery and leave you with less of a lactic acid pain loaded feeling the next day.[/b]

There is no conection between protein and lactic acid. Not even remotely close, I have no idea where you might have gotten that from. It doesn&#39;t even make any logical sense.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Rugby Cymru")</div>
I am on DC&#39;s side here. DC may not be an adult yet, but it&#39;s proven that youngsters will benefit greatly from lifting weights (not excessively heavy ones, of course) and that it only helps with the growth process rather than stunting their growth as so many people believe. A kids growth is stunted only if they do heavy weights.[/b]

Yes, this is a very common misconception. There are many benefits of resistance training including stronger bones and increase in muscle strength. You also don&#39;t have to worry about an overload of muscle mass on joints because young boys do not produce enough testocerone to do so and girls hardly register it. There is only one potential problem with young children weight lifting and that is to make sure they don&#39;t do max lifts. It is possible for a young child to break their growth plates by lifting heavy weights excessively, which effectively stops their growth.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Rugby Cymru")</div>
If DC didn&#39;t take protein after his workout then his body would experience muscle breakdown. He&#39;s decided (and advisedly so) to work out in the gym, therefore his body needs replenishment...this comes in the form of protein shakes.
I mean, what happens to you if you don&#39;t eat? Your body goes for your reserves - it&#39;s a last resort, but it&#39;s willing to do so to survive. If DC didn&#39;t take a protein shake wtihin 20 mins after workout then he would most certainly have to eat very soon after, otherwise his whole gym session would have just gone to waste because the muscles need to repair and the body wouldn&#39;t be able to do so because it doens&#39;t have the nutrients with which to do so. The body uses protein fibres to repair and when it has been through a tough workout it will have already used up quite a bit of protein to help it, but post-work out it needs a boost of protein and this comes (quickly) in the form of whey protein.[/b]

That doesn&#39;t make sense, physiologically speaking.

Your body doesn&#39;t start eating muscle after a workout. It just doesn&#39;t happen. The only time your body starts eating itself is if you actually starve yourself for days. You can&#39;t replicate that unless you go out and run a marthon(which your body uses up all the carbs and fats leaving only protein left) or the Tour de France.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Rugby Cymru")</div>
I am quite passionate about the gym and all the benefits it has and how to make those benefits as effective as possible.
Both me and the boys in work wake up to a protein shake, then have breakfast. Have another protein shake at 11am. Lunch at 1pm. Potein shake 1hr/30mins prior to work out. Protein shake 20 mins after work out. Evening meal. Late night (carb free(healthy)) snack. Whey protein mixed with milk OR Casein protein right before bed.
This is a constant (and balanced) intake of protein, carbs and sugars designed to meet our training[/b]

There&#39;s nothing balanced about that and in fact is probably dangerous to your health. There is little to no need for for protein shakes at all as your body does not store protein. The average person requires .08 grams of protein per kg in their body. Someone who lifts often such as your self needs about 1-1.2grams/per kg and elite athletes such as marathon runners and body builders need a max of 1.7. Let&#39;s take DC for instance, I believe he&#39;s once mentioned that he is 165pounds. That&#39;s 75Kg&#39;s.

1.2*75kgs=90grams of protein required daily

That&#39;s the max amount protein his body can process. Now, from North American diet, he&#39;ll get that pretty fast. Especially because his mum is still feeding him. Let&#39;s say DC wakes up in the morning, scratches his balls, yawns and takes a piss. When he get&#39;s to the kitchen he toasts 2 slices of bread(6g), pours himself a glass of milk(9g) and finally spreads peanut butter on the bread(9g). He&#39;s already consumed 24g of protein and it&#39;s not even 9am. As the clock reaches noon hour DC pulls out a salami and bologne sandwich. Right there is bread(6g), salami(7g), bologne(7g) and 2 slices of cheese(6g). So he consumed 26g of protein for lunch with a running total of 60g. When he get&#39;s home from a nice session of getting baked as he likes to do from time to time he mum has cooked him a nice big spread. He&#39;s got nice big porkchop(34g), rice(2g) and some peas(4g). He just hit 100g of protein for the day. I swear I didn&#39;t actually mean for it to actually come to a flat total but I made my point. Just by eating right, he&#39;s consumed more protein than he requires and that&#39;s not even throwing in a musli bar or gatorade along the way. Protein shakes are only good as a supplement, meaning if you&#39;re just too poor to afford milk and meat products and you&#39;re soley eating pasta(as young ppl living by themselves are known to do). But as you&#39;ll find even one protein shake is more than enough protein to last you a day, let alone five.

Sugars are carbohydrates, just so you know.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("Rugby Cymru")</div>
Supplement does NOT = steroid-esque drug.[/b]

There is a reason why protein and creatine aren&#39;t banned by the IOC and I&#39;ve said my reasons why. However, you are abusing protein and can cause serious harm to your liver.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("DC")</div>
Jonny wasnt injured because of training... hell his injuries are what, Neck, Knees? Thats not as a result of training though.

Studs catching and neck being pushed into a wrong position to create a injury arent exactly a result of training[/b]

Training may not directly cause an injury but the overuse and improper amounts of rest time could made his muscles more susceptible to injury. There is a balance that needs to be attained.

That&#39;s enough for now.

[DC]

nah man not peanut butter


regular butter

[Canadian_Rugby_Guy]

peanut butter is awesome. great post fcukernaut, but I think the amount of protein per kg of bodywieght vaires according to who you listen to. I for example have heard that with weight lifting i need to consume nearly 2g per kg of bodyweight from some people. I&#39;d be curious to know howw you got your info? are you studying it? or do you have some sort of website that gives info on this?

[fcukernaut]

peanut butter is awesome. great post fcukernaut, but I think the amount of protein per kg of bodywieght vaires according to who you listen to. I for example have heard that with weight lifting i need to consume nearly 2g per kg of bodyweight from some people. I&#39;d be curious to know howw you got your info? are you studying it? or do you have some sort of website that gives info on this?
[/b]

Well I&#39;m studying exercise science at school and I plan on pursueing a bachlors in exercise science/kinesiology (whatever you call it in your part of the world). So that information is from the textbook, paraphrased of course as this is something I&#39;ve really grasped and learned. It&#39;s great when you find something you like.

[BigTen]

Yeah I agree with Canadian_Rugby_Guy - great post fcukernaut.

I see it all the time loads of kids sucking down protein shakes in a container and I just think that it is a waste of time.

The only time that most people really need to have protein shakes is when they don&#39;t have the time or are too lzy to have a decent after-gym meal.

Although the fact that DC is only having one a day it isn&#39;t really going to make too much of a difference. What will make a difference is that if he is lifting weights that are too heavy and not having enough of a rest for his body to recover. But from the sounds of it he isn&#39;t doing that so there isn&#39;t a problem.

Bokmagic said that it was better to lift heavy weights during the off season and that makes loads of sense. Working out when you are tired and sore and maybe too busy to eat as well as you should never works and it would be better to work on your skills during the season rather than your strength.

The pros do all of their strengthening up work mostly during the off-season.