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This surely has to be crunch time for the blues and Pat Lam in particular To not get home finals and make the final if not win the thing this year with the Big player names signed to the blues I think should spell the end for pat Lam. On Paper they are surely in the top 4 strongest teams and if they had a more experienced 10 I think they would be strongest on paper overall. With almost an all All Black tight 5 and the ability to name a starting 15 with current or former All Blacks in "almost" every position. 1, Woodcock 2, Mealamu 3, Faumuina 4, Boric 5, Williams 6, Kaino 7, Braid 8, Peter Saili 9, Mathewson 10, Weepu 11, Ranger 12, Nonu 13, Stanley 14, Wulf 15, Toeava That's 13 Test players! Backed up by some quality super players like Tom McCartney & Luke Braid. Will be interesting to see how Brad Mika goes? Big questionmark over him, he was a good player a few years ago but what has he done lately? Didn't get any time last year, maybe he's a mate of Lam? Who knows... The blues can't keep going on with a roster this strong and not get results, that's why I believe it's do or die time for Lam. It may be true that up to the point Toeava pulled out due to his ongoing injury problems the Blues were the best team in the whole comp last year but losing one player shouldn't upset a team as much as it did the blues. Heck the crusaders always seem to be able to truck on and get results when Carter or McCaw are out. Why should the blues fall to bits losing one player like they did with Toeava last year? The key for them is 10... If one of the guys can put their hand up at 10 then they are set. I personally hope Gareth Anscombe or Michael Hobbs steps up at 10 to allow Weepu to play 9. The talk of Donald being linked with the blues made a lot of sense at the time and Beaver would have enjoyed working behind a tight 5 at the blues that is Massive in terms of size and experience compared to the chiefs outfit.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o.../kakahitsm.jpg "The laughing bear, drives a motorcycle" - Israel Dagg, Sep - 2011 Cometh the hour, cometh the Don!
Good summary Larksea. I agree that, on paper at least, the Blues look almost as good as any team in the tournament. Up front I see prop depth as a bit of an issue - Mailau is a ok backup, but hasn't really established himself at Super rugby level - indeed they often used McCartney at prop instead of him last season. I've got a lot of time for Angus Ta'avao, but he is only a rookie at this level. I'm really looking forward to seeing Liaki Moli get some game-time for the Blues this season, as he was phenomenal at U20 level. He's obviously stuck behind Boric and Williams, but he could make a big impact from the bench. I don't expect Brad Mika to get much gametime this season, but he could surprise me. It will be interesting to see who out of Daniel and Luke Braid get the starting 7 jersey - personally, based on Luke's form last season I think he deserves to start ahead of Daniel, but I'm sure they will both get a chance to push their cases. In the backs the key is going to be the halves combination. I think Weepu has a lot of potential at 10, he just lacks experience in the position. If they persist with him he may grow into the position as the season progresses - I just hope they don't expect him to be a world class 10 from day 1. Though personally I would prefer the backline that you have listed, all reports I've heard suggest that Rene Ranger looks set to start at 13 this season. This would mean that there is another wing spot open for either Raikuna, Moala, or Stowers. Not sure which of the three I'd pick at this stage, but all three are very strong attacking players, and could add even more spark to the Blues backline.
yeah I hope to see Liaki Moli get tametime. I was looking for him on a weekly basis last year only to find that he had injury issues. I dont expect Mika to threaten Williams and Boric in the peckign order but with it being sucha a long season you have to expect that everyone in the squad will get plenty of gametime.
Originally Posted by Larksea yeah I hope to see Liaki Moli get tametime. I was looking for him on a weekly basis last year only to find that he had injury issues. I dont expect Mika to threaten Williams and Boric in the peckign order but with it being sucha a long season you have to expect that everyone in the squad will get plenty of gametime. He had a bad shoulder injury before last years Super Rugby comp, then re-injured the same shoulder in his first start back for Auckland in the NPC. He is apparently fully fit now. He was undoubtedly the most powerful lock with ball in hand I've seem at U20 level - he had a Kaino like ability to be tackled by a couple of players yet still keep moving forward 4-5 metres. It will be interesting to see whether he can bring this into Super rugby, where the players are undoubtedly going to be bigger and stronger....
Moli is a Beast. He could be our Brad Thorn both in ability and service. I must say I'm a bit worried about Pat Lams decision making on the 10 position. I'd prefer Weepu at 10 just to allow Mathewson to start. The whole Brett/McAlister thing last year was disappointing. Where necessary bring in Anscombe to build up his experience, have Hobbs as a back up (although I'd like him tried at 12). I think in order to keep the Media wolves (and public) at bay for this year, Pat needs a S15 title and then look at Anscombe to carry the Franchise forward. My understanding is that Mika is now a Loose Forward/Lock option rather than Lock/Looseforward option. I'm hoping they start with Luke Braid against the Crusaders, just for the Todd vs Braid. Maybe even look at picking a Braid/Braid/Kaino lineup against one of the Bigger South African teams.
Originally Posted by UilamOsa Moli is a Beast. He could be our Brad Thorn both in ability and service. I must say I'm a bit worried about Pat Lams decision making on the 10 position. I'd prefer Weepu at 10 just to allow Mathewson to start. The whole Brett/McAlister thing last year was disappointing. Where necessary bring in Anscombe to build up his experience, have Hobbs as a back up (although I'd like him tried at 12). I think in order to keep the Media wolves (and public) at bay for this year, Pat needs a S15 title and then look at Anscombe to carry the Franchise forward. My understanding is that Mika is now a Loose Forward/Lock option rather than Lock/Looseforward option. I'm hoping they start with Luke Braid against the Crusaders, just for the Todd vs Braid. Maybe even look at picking a Braid/Braid/Kaino lineup against one of the Bigger South African teams. Agree with all of that. I think a Braid/Braid/Kaino trio could be very effective against certain teams - the fact they have given Kaino a lot of time at number 8 in the pre-season suggests to me that this may be an option at times during the season. EDIT: Just seen that the Blues have named a Braid/Braid/Kaino loose-trio for their final pre-season match versus Highlanders...
Last edited by TRF_Darwin; 14-02-12 at 11:41 PM.
Lam has to deliver. Bottom line. If not then he he should do the right thing hand in his notice before they even get around to reviewing his tenure To be honest- he probably should have got the ass last year. The results flattered to deceive and he made noises about aiming for a top 4 finish??!!! That is loser talk - he should have been aiming for the title win and nothing else.
Originally Posted by TRF_Darwin Agree with all of that. I think a Braid/Braid/Kaino trio could be very effective against certain teams - the fact they have given Kaino a lot of time at number 8 in the pre-season suggests to me that this may be an option at times during the season. EDIT: Just seen that the Blues have named a Braid/Braid/Kaino loose-trio for their final pre-season match versus Highlanders... Me too! Great Minds... Originally Posted by FlukeArtist Lam has to deliver. Bottom line. If not then he he should do the right thing hand in his notice before they even get around to reviewing his tenure To be honest- he probably should have got the ass last year. The results flattered to deceive and he made noises about aiming for a top 4 finish??!!! That is loser talk - he should have been aiming for the title win and nothing else. They finished 4th? Also, there's what coaches tell the media and what they tell the players. I'm willing to have a little belief in Pat, I wasn't on his bandwagon when he was named NPC/ITM coach for Auckland, all the chopping and changing - no apparent gameplan etc. Massive hiding by Waikato. Then "nek minit" ITM champions twice over. Ranfurly Shield holders.
We got a mean team, theres no doubt about that. No concerns for me at this time. Some good issues raised by Larky. As a Samoan its great to see a Samoan coaching the Blues but it really is do or die for Mr Lam. Nothing but good performances and victories will do especially now that hes got a good squad of players, which adds pressure on him because it could stain his record as a coach if this star-studded team doesnt perform to expectation. Provided theres no major issues with mass injuries, we should be in the final this year. If we aint, Pat will have to go.
"WHAT?!!, run it straight then" - Sam Owen
UilamOsa, Go back and have a look at those games last season. The Blues were lucky to finish where they did. And to be honest, the results last flatered to deceive. The Blues simply were not at the calibre of the other top teams, and when the acid went on, the Blues lacked the composure and intelligence required of a top team. Lam was in his 3rd years in charge then. This year is his 4th. He has had one of the longest coaching tenures at the Blues. Other coaches have been given the ass well before Lam for average results such as these. There is also a huge difference between ITM and Super Rugby. Success in one does not usually translate into the other. Sorry- but unless Lam wins the title this year, he should get the chop. Semi-finalists, or losing finalists will not do. With the wealth of talent at his disposal, and 4 years in charge (plenty of time to establish his "team culture" and methods) there can be no excuses this time. If he dosn't win and keeps his job, that will signal to me that this proud Union has now officailly dropped standards and is satisfied with mediocrity. Then Auckland will just lose more supporters to the Warriors. That is a cold, hard fact.
I actually thought for the most part the blues were a very good team last year. IMO early in the season they were the best team. The problems came when Toeava was injured, McAlister lost motivation when it became pretty clear that he was all but out of all black selection and Brett was found out on defense and exposed. Also worth note that they lost kurtis haiu and Brad Mika Early and had to run 4/5/6 string locks at times. When Boric & Williams had downtime. So much seemed to be lost with Toeava. At the point he dropped out with injury he dominated the competitions attacking stats. And with him gone the backline lost it's stability with Lam moving players around to find a fit that would work with Toeava gone. Hard luck I guess but as I pointed out the crusaders never seem to skip a beat if Dagg/Carter/McCaw are injured. the crusaders just always seem to have the depth they need, and I think the blues should be just as good. With the resources the blues have they should have that same depth the crusaders have. Chiefs, highlanders and Canes if they have a few key injuries you pretty much write them off. But blues and crusaders should be better IMO, any one or two men going down should not upset the side as much as it did the blues last year.
Last edited by Larksea; 18-02-12 at 08:14 PM.
Sorry Larksea, but go back and review those games the Blues won earlier in the season. they scrapped by teams that a decent team would have put to the sword. A perfect example of what I am talking about is the Blues-Cheetahs game last year. Cheetahs shoudl never have been near the Blues. the crusaders just always seem to have the depth they need, and I think the blues should be just as good. With the resources the blues have they should have that same depth the crusaders have. Well as I say Larksea - with the wealth of talent at Lam's disposal, there can be NO excuses.
I agree totally, the blues haven't been performing well enough considering the pool of players they have. There is a big difference between getting to the top 4 and winning the thing. To win you need to be able to perform even when you have injury disruptions and you need the Killer instinct, attitude and environment that the top teams have and I dont think it can be created or fostered by winning the NPC. But a good coach can spark it - I doubt Lam can with this team but ted can - he's proved that with the blues in the past and I think Lam will be smart and call him in to help every chance he can get this year. It would be awesome to see the chiefs do it but I'm realistic. I look at the player rosters and the reality is the Crusaders and blues are the only two teams that have the player resources to realistically go all the way. I look at the chiefs and they look like they are just 3 players down on what I would think they need to be a real contender. 1 Prop, 1 lock and a fullback. Look over the blues books, current and former all blacks everywhere, no real areas of weakness other than maybe backup props and the fact that they need a first five to step up. The simple fact that their first choice tight 5 should be one of if not the strongest in the competition and they have a backline full of some of the most deadly attacking players in world rugby For the blues winning really has to be the only option and if they dont Lam should go. I honestly think Blues coach is the 2nd most important coaching job in NZ behind the all blacks and should come with just as much pressure on the results.
Well said Larksea. Chiefs have a very exciting backline, and with Tim Nanai-Williams I don't think they are wanting for a fullback. IMO he was better than Muliaina last year. The Chiefs lack a decent tight five in general. Not just a prop and a lock. But if the tight 5 can do the basics right and get ball to the backline... watch out.
Originally Posted by FlukeArtist Well said Larksea. Chiefs have a very exciting backline, and with Tim Nanai-Williams I don't think they are wanting for a fullback. IMO he was better than Muliaina last year. The Chiefs lack a decent tight five in general. Not just a prop and a lock. But if the tight 5 can do the basics right and get ball to the backline... watch out. yeah people will have different opinions, chiefs tight 5 does lack but I dont think it needs too much. Craig Clark is good enough but not top class, I think if you added one genuine top class Lock the 2nd row would be better off as a whole because the rest of the locks would have someone to feed off and learn. And in the props the chiefs have talent and potential but in my opinion need a top level experienced prop for the same reason. as far as fullback goes last years super15 is hardly a good example of mills being at his best infact because mills had a tough year and the guys who filled in for him did a pretty bad job I think was a big factor in their poor season. IMO the chiefs 15 options lack size, height and solid proven defense. With Mills in form the chiefs had one of the best players in the world under the high ball and a tackler they could rely on - I dont see that in Robinson/Nanai yet. I look at the chiefs squad take out Taumalolo and add in someone like John Afoa, Jamie Macintosh or Ben Franks Take out one of the young locks and add someone the class of Boric or Ali Williams take out Robbie Robinson and add someone like Ben Smith, Toeava heck I'd even take a Tom Marshall who's 2nd string at the crusaders.
That Tom Marshall is such an underrated player
Sitting bottom of the NZ table with Kaino and now Toeava both gone for the season what now for the blues and Pat Lam?
I think this should probably be Pat's last season. He's certainly not achieved much since he came on, especially considering his squad. I think maybe he's not quite good enough to coach at Super Rugby and thus should become assistant coach to the All Blacks.
Originally Posted by TRF_nickdnz I think this should probably be Pat's last season. He's certainly not achieved much since he came on, especially considering his squad. I think maybe he's not quite good enough to coach at Super Rugby and thus should become assistant coach to the All Blacks. Who would you promote?
I remember saying when they announced the team last year, that this was gonna be a weak Blues team, we really don't need both Mathewson and Weepu, and we really don't need Weepu as a first five instead of a halfback, I prefer Weepu as halfback to Mathewson though. And they made a mistake leaving out Luamanu, there were other things but I can't remember what they were now
Originally Posted by Invictus Who would you promote? I WOULD have had Mark Anscombe as coach but now he's coaching Ulster. I'd consider Chris Gibbs.
I dunno, he's had mixed results with Waikato, and that's when they've had most of their on and off All Blacks too...
Toeava out for the season and perhaps more? Kara said he didn't know when Toeava would play again, but suggested it wouldn't be until 2013 if he underwent another operation. http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/s...eava-and-Blues
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This thread is titled incorrectly. It should've been: The BLUES! I'm not going to complain about the injuries - coz it happens for other teams. I'm not going to complain about Ali Williams - coz I get tired after every match post 07. All I'm going to say is that I have faith (sad but true) that we will be there again in the finals. I don't know how but we will. Whatever the result - Pat Lam should be decided on this campain (yes spelt correctly). Auckland/The Blues Region has the depth but there are alot of administrations/in house politics all of that petty minor stuff that happens everywhere. Unless they go left field - there isn't anyone I could name right now (that's not Sir Graham Henry) that I would want coaching the Boys.
never say never I guess but they are in a nasty situation. And we all know what happened last year when they lost Toeava, after setting the pace in the early part of the comp they lost him and never looked the same threat. And later in the season they rallied a bit I think off the back of some big performances from Jerome Kaino no less. Without both these guys a LOT falls on the shoulders of Weepu, Nonu, Dan Braid, Tony Woodcock, Boric & Williams and Kevin Mealamu Fact is that even with two big names out they still have more star firepower than most teams. Because of that if they don't do better than last year there is absolutely no reason to keep Lam. Something has to change because by now the gameplan and team culture should be set in stone and the squad should be at their best with the years he's had at the helm building his vision of the team. The comparison to Foster on the previous page is kinda valid but Foster never had the talent in his squad Lam has and at least Foster coached a chiefs side that MADE THE FINAL The fact that Graeme Henry constantly pulled most of the Blues forward pack into the All Blacks and produced the best squad in international Rugby year in year out is a slap in the face for Pat Lam.
Agree Larksea. Its even evident when Henry spends a week with the Blues team (as he did when he was ABs coach). I don't know if there is any stat on this, but I remember from my Super Rugby tippng comp that I would always pick the Blues the week Henry had worked with them, and without fail, they would win (at least, I cannot remember them not winning when Henry had input)
Weepu is killing you guys. He is fat and out of shape (which is ridiculous in the first place, your job is to be in good shape), he single handedly lost the game on the weekend by A. missing that tackle on Cory Jane to let in the try B.kicking the ball away with a minute to go for no apparent reason other than to give the Canes a chance to have another attack C. missing the tackle on Barrett in the last try. Lam should be playing Mathewson and Anscombe week in week out. It's like since he has Weepu there he is obligated to play him. I wish a coach would just drop him and not pick him again until he passes a fitness test. He is great player when fit, but when he is fat he is useless, like now. Painfully slow. He must have the worst diet to counteract all the training these guys are doing. I'd make him run laps until he lost 10kg if I was Lam.
weepu is really frustrating, such a liability most of the time but when he's fit I think he's the best 9 in the world. I know Ted saw him as critical to the All Blacks but needed to basically babysit him through fitness and training. Things getting worse for the blues with Talk that as many as 12 of their top players will be gone next season It's a shame Mark Anscombe is out of the picture I kinda saw him as the natural successor to tale over from Lam. Blues need to Move hard to secure the services of some key players and a coach. Rob Penney would be top of my list. As for the players, They desperately need to keep these guys IMO Charlie Faumaina Gareth Anscombe Sean Polwart Luke Braid Moli Boric Benson Stanley Rene Ranger Rudi Wulf And recruit young talent well to rebuild. Kinda expect a couple of the old heads to stay, Mealamu and Woodcock don't seem like the kind of guys that would vanish off overseas or move to another super team. But Weepu, Nonu, Dan Braid and Ali Williams may Vanish next year and obviously kaino will be gone. mathewson hasn't looked great and I think he could be gone too. They somehow need to unearth some talent in the Blues area, there surely must be some around!? Without doing the numbers there just doesn't seem to be the young tallent comming through to the blues as there is in the other regions.
aparently Toeava has signed to play in Japan as well? I havn't really raised him yet but I can't help but feel his injury problems cast serious doubt over him playing top rugby. He had major surgery to fix the issue and over a year later it's no better - maybe worse. Maybe the best thing wold be for him to somehow squeze some rugby in and play for the highest bidder he can to secure $$$ for life beyond rugby.
Pat lam has to be the worst super rugby coach I have ever seen. Each week the blues are worse and don't seem to work on any of there issues at trainings because the same issues happen every game. I would love to be there to listen to what his gameplan is and how the are training to execute it, because the crap that he is dishing out has ruined what should be an unstoppable team.When you watch the highlanders or the chiefs who have amazing coaches, it is very obvious what they are doing to put pressure on the opposition and win their games. It's going to take a few years to fix this rabble that pat lam has created because the next coach won't have the superstars that lam has. Pam and his management have ruined this team and it is soo hard being a longtime fan watching this terrible team play.
