What should be the H Cup qualification system?

[psychic duck]

Debate: What should be the H Cup qualification system?

Should it be the Top 8 teams respectively in the RaboPro12, Aviva Premiership and Top 14 who qualify for the Heineken Cup, or should it just stay the same?

---

Advantages:

The 24 qualified teams would be a fairer reflection of the best 24 in Europe, and there would be fewer easy group matches

This season if this system was in place it would mean that Bayonne, Toulon, Dragons and Exeter would be in the Heineken Cup in place of Connacht, Treviso, Aironi and Glasgow. The team that finished 7th would have earned their place, rather than Glasgow who finished 11th last season in the RaboPro12 getting a place despite a poor season

I think we can all agree, that all of the first four teams mentioned are better than Connacht and Aironi, and would make the groups much harder and mean there would be a lot less chance to see teams getting top seeds in the quarter finals on the basis of 10 safe points against Aironi, there could be groups with all teams capable of winning at least two matches and thus more tight groups

It would give more meaning to the RaboPro12

Under the current qualification system an ordinary humdrum league match between the Dragons and Treviso for example means very little to either side with no relegation in the league, yet with European qualification on the line the match would get a lot more meaning and could bring more fans to the games with something riding on it. The Dragons finished seventh last year, but nobody noticed and they missed out on European qualification, under this system it would mean something for them to finish seventh.

Currently as well, in some RaboPro12 matches the teams are quite understrength at times, under this system teams couldn't afford to do this with European qualification up for grabs. And also many Premiership and Top 14 teams, get annoyed how the some Celtic teams can rest players for the couple of weeks before a big European tie whilst they have to fight out for position in the league, this could end that.

The Italian and Scottish teams could get European Cup fever
Although there is more chance that the Italian teams would not be in the Heineken Cup, it would be more at their level. Aironi lose most matches, but under this system they could win more facing weaker Spanish sides and would have more competitive even matches with teams like Newcastle rather than matches against Clermont, Leicester or Ulster. Under this system the Italians (especially Treviso) could realistically reach the quarter finals and have big matches and go on a cup run which would get more interest from fans and raise morale around the squad.

The same also applies to the Scottish teams to a lesser extent, as one of them normally finishes outside the top 8 and they rarely achieve anything in Europe but could go on a possible cup run in the Amlin Challenge Cup.

---

Disadvantages:

More same nation vs same nation matches
Under the current system there is just one group with same country vs same country matches (Harlequins and Gloucester), with 8 teams from each league qualification system there would be much more of these matches which don't have the same European flavour with matches against teams more rarely played

The tournament would be less European
Under this system, there could very possibly be no Italian team in the competition making it less of a continental tournament

More club vs country battles for the Celtic teams
Currently English and French teams, get very annoyed when their best players are taken away for national training camps or not released for a match in a rest week between 6 Nations matches, under this qualification system the same thing would spread to the Celtic and Italian teams also.

The Irish national team players in particular are very heavily managed by the IRFU meaning that players such as Johnny Sexton, Jamie Heaslip and Rob Kearney despite all being first choice at their provinces have barely played in RaboPro12 matches, in fact all three of those players mentioned have played more Heineken Cup matches this season than they have RaboPro12 matches. This means that a player like Leo Auva'a who can hardly make the Leinster Heineken Cup 23 man squad, plays very regularly at Pro12 level.

The same thing happens with Italy, Scotland and Wales also. Notably Andy Robinson withdrew and rested Alastair Kellock, Richie Gray, John Barclay, Allan Jacobsen and Ross Ford from the end of March until the end of the season. (read that story on this link http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/12913317)

That would never ever happen in a million years in the English or French leagues as the teams are fighting it out for relegation, European places, and playoff places at that time of the season

If this proposed change to the qualification system came into place, then the Celtic and Italian clubs with their future earnings at stake would really kick up a fuss about their players being rested by the governing boards. (However the weakened sides such as Leinster and Munster would safely qualify without their Ireland contracted players anyway, so maybe not them), but the Dragons for example would fight a lot harder for Toby Faletau.

---

what are your thoughts?

do the advantages outweigh the disadvantages?

also please vote in the poll

[welshglory]

I feel that it should be the top 8 teams. I think the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. However the current format will probably never change so...

[bushytop]

I like the idea in principle and think it would add a lot to the RaboDirect, don't think the Italian or Scottish unions would allow it though.

Also with the imminent possibility of centralized contracts for Welsh players, not sure the Welsh regions would have much say in demanding their players back. The biggest drawback for Welsh regions would be the lack of finance and player exodus which may well make it difficult for Welsh regions to finish in the top 8.

Overall I agree with the idea as I believe the HC & RD Pro 12 would be stronger as a result (may mean that the Pro 12 devolve into a more tight, forward orientated, penalty points type game ala aviva premiership though).

[psychic duck]

@WelshGlory: I've heard the possibility of a change in qualifying system is not out of the question if the French and English teams get their way

I like the idea in principle and think it would add a lot to the RaboDirect, don't think the Italian or Scottish unions would allow it though.

Also with the imminent possibility of centralized contracts for Welsh players, not sure the Welsh regions would have much say in demanding their players back. The biggest drawback for Welsh regions would be the lack of finance and player exodus which may well make it difficult for Welsh regions to finish in the top 8.

Overall I agree with the idea as I believe the HC & RD Pro 12 would be stronger as a result (may mean that the Pro 12 devolve into a more tight, forward orientated, penalty points type game ala aviva premiership though).

to be fair the Rabo Pro 12, Aviva Premiership and Top 14 are pretty much no different in style of play

the Aviva Premiership actually has on average more tries a match than either those leagues this season, that league has just been given that reputation but in reality is no different to the others

every European league has it's sides like Gloucester, Toulouse, Scarlets, Leinster but also has sides like Saracens, Biarritz, Ospreys who rely more on their tight five

[Me 1]

I personally think that each nation which appears in the six nations should have at least 1 representative in the H cup. Let's just say, for the sake of argument, the rabo would have 10 teams getting European representation. If Aironi finished bottom with Treviso in 11th, I think Aironi should go to the amlin whilst Treviso go to the Heineken cup. The 10th placed team, let's say Connacht, would also drop down to the amlin, leaving Italy with one representative in the Heineken. If it was Aironi and Connacht who came 11th and 12th they should both drop to the amlin, as each of the six nations countries has one representative.

There's my two cents.

[welshglory]

Good call Me 1, makes a lot of sense

[Feicarsinn]

All 4 Irish provinces should get automatic qualification into the semi finals. Aside from that I don't mind any qualifications the ERC cares to put in place.

[Teh Mite]

Pointless debate, Simon Cohen has thrown his toys out the pram on behalf of the Premiership and Top 14.

The HEC will likely become an exclusive plaything of the Celtic league teams soon. And about equally valuable in the process.

[William18]

I think it would strengthen the competition if the top 8 teams were in there. Scotland and Italy should be able to get one side into that top 8. If you still want the Italian and Scottish sides it should only be their top team, not their top two.

[ZeFrenchy]

I'm not sure I understand the current qualification system, so I wouldn't be able to compare really. But what I think should happen, is 8 teams from each league, but the Pro 12 should qualify the best placed from each country plus the 4 best placed from the others. So, taking last season's standings as example, Munster, Ospreys, Edinburgh and Treviso would qualify, and Leinster, Ulster, Scarlets and Cardiff as well. The only difference, in terms of teams, with he top 8 would be Treviso (10th) instead of Dragons (7th).

The problem with that is that it appears to be unfair to Connacht and Dragons...

[monkeypigeon]

I think there's also a problem whereby if you have a team that finishes 8th from France/England. Particularly France, we might see more of the second string teams for away games that tend to ruin groups.

The only place I think I'd remove is the second Italian spot. Arioni are just two weak. Edinburgh and Glasgow are bit like what Scarlets and Cardiff were like a couple of years ago. Decent teams but flakey, Maybe take away the automatic spot for the HC winners. Give the Arioni spot to a French team, The HC winners spot to an English team.

Premiership: 7 teams
Top14: 7 teams
Pro12: 9 teams (3Irl, 3Wls, 2Sct, 1Ita - a fair reflection of strength I think)
Amlin Winner: 1 (I like the incentive, it really adds to the Amlin).

Still only two pools with doubling up on English/French teams, only one team weakened by an Italian team - and Treviso caused plenty of problems this year. And the Amlin is almost invariably won by a French/English team with the exception of that one year when Cardiff took it. You save us from a relegation battling French team ruining the fun (hopefully) and the Scots preserve their place (which I think they need if they want to regrow rugby in Scotland).

[Peat]

A cup without the defending champions is absurd. It's usually a formality, but to remove the slot given to the HC winners would be a big mistake imo.

[monkeypigeon]

A cup without the defending champions is absurd. It's usually a formality, but to remove the slot given to the HC winners would be a big mistake imo.

Do what the Champions League does. If a team falls outside the qualification places in their own country they take the last qualifier from that countries place. Like Chelsea might do to Spurs for next season...except Chelsea won't win the CL, let alone get to the final.

[Melhor Time]

I liked the point that Me 1 made.

Premiership: 7 teams
Top14: 7 teams
Pro12: 9 teams (3Irl, 3Wls, 2Sct, 1Ita - a fair reflection of strength I think)
Amlin Winner: 1 (I like the incentive, it really adds to the Amlin).

There is a clear split in the Pro 12 between the top seven and bottom five in the Pro 12.

i.e. the teams in red.

1	Leinster		69
2	Ospreys		58
3	Munster		56
4	Glasgow		56
5	Ulster		55
6	Scarlets		51
7	Cardiff		44
8	Dragons		33
9	Treviso		30
10	Connacht		29
11	Edinburgh		27
12	Aironi		19

Perpignan and Biarritz won´t be in the Heineken Cup next season - they are too far behind on points. Both are just trying to avoid relegation to the Pro d2. Both are better than the bottom five, at least, from the Pro 12. Stade Français are in seventh now and thus also outside of the HCup for now. The form of SF is meriting a place in the Heineken Cup next year. More than Gloucester or Sale - one will qualify. More than Cardiff or Edinburgh. But the Heineken Cup is not based on quality its based on distribution.

If the Heineken Cup worked like the Top 14 and Aviva Premiership then it would be a better system - one based more on merit rather than just giving each country a number of teams. If, however, the idea is to distribute places to the countries then Italy has to have two not one.

The only fundamental issue with the Heineken Cup is this... the Pro 12 gets more places than it should but thats because the ERC want a balance.

[djames6]

If it was my decision, I would reduce the number of Heineken pools to 5. This gives runners up in the pools a fairer chance to qualify for the QFs. This would mean 6/6 from England/France and 8 from the Rabo, with the proviso that there should be at least 1 from each country.

If you go for the 8 from each league then you would also have to accept the stricter rule on the number of non country qualified that the Rabo teams have. I was at the Scarlets/Saints game a few weeks ago and the Saints had players from 8 different countries in their starting XV whilst the Scarlets had 14 Welsh qualified.

[Teh Mite]

Completely unlike the 2 forigen players rule un the premiership....



#afeyoueffionindisguise

[Amiga500]

All 4 Irish provinces should get automatic qualification into the semi finals. Aside from that I don't mind any qualifications the ERC cares to put in place.

+1

Great suggestion!

[TRF_Olyy]

Should be the top 8 from each comp, and if the winner of the previous year is outside of the top 8, then they take the position of the 8th place from their league.

While we're at it, I don't like HEC teams dropping in to the Amlin. If they're out they're out, they shouldn't still get a chance at silverware.

[Amiga500]

Why should it be the top 8 from each league?

All but one of the PremierHype™ (©SkySports) teams got dumped on their backside - so why fill up the HEC with even more mediocrity?

[TRF_Olyy]

It's 3 leagues, 8 teams from each league to make 24 teams. Easiest way to do it.

No teams are hyped more than the Pro12 sides, so that doesn't fly right anyway.

[big ginger 8]

It's 3 leagues, 8 teams from each league to make 24 teams. Easiest way to do it.

No teams are hyped more than the Pro12 sides, so that doesn't fly right anyway.

Who hypes the Pro12 teams Munster and Leinster may be the only ones and that's not exactly undeserving hype given there history. The French teams are IMO usually overhyped with mid to lower table teams often considered favorites the odd time vs top Aviva or Pro12 teams.

[welshglory]

That's a pretty poor reason Amiga. How many Scottish, Welsh or Italian sides have gotten out of their groups in the whole history of the HC?

[cmac95]

I don't think it should be separated by league they should stick with allocations per country.

This would be difficult to implement but it's plausible if done right.

7 English
7 French
2 Irish
2 Welsh
2 Scottish
1 Italian
1 Amlin Winner
1 HEC winner
1 Next best positioned side in Pro 12.

Would also make Pro 12 more competitive.

[Feicarsinn]

Why do the Scot's get a second place, but not the Italians?

[welshglory]

Scottish sides are better

[cmac95]

Edinburgh and Glasgow are a lot more competitive than the Italian sides.
It could have Scotland with only one spot but then everyone would be complaining about the Pro 12 getting two extra spots.

[Amiga500]

That's a pretty poor reason Amiga. How many Scottish, Welsh or Italian sides have gotten out of their groups in the whole history of the HC?

How far back do you weight history?

If you want to start a coefficient thing like soccer - then that is a slippery slope which will only concentrate money around the few clubs/regions that happened to be in the pound seats when the musical chairs stopped.


In the last year, 1 PremierHype team qualified beyond the groups. What is the case for giving that league any more? If the alternative is going to be a league based system, then evaluate the strength of the leagues right now - and right now it would look like the Pro12 is better than the PremierHype... so I don't see the logic of moving places from the stronger to the weaker (and going away from the country system that has worked to date).


Sometimes change is good. Change for change's sake however is almost always a mistake. I don't see the longer term benefit to rugby in the proposed change.

[Peat]

I don't think it should be separated by league they should stick with allocations per country.

This would be difficult to implement but it's plausible if done right.

7 English
7 French
2 Irish
2 Welsh
2 Scottish
1 Italian
1 Amlin Winner
1 HEC winner
1 Next best positioned side in Pro 12.

Would also make Pro 12 more competitive.

That requires 3 turkies to vote for Christmas while neither giving equal representation to leagues, or entirely meritocratic selection - as such, I don't think its plausible.

[Teh Mite]

How far back do you weight history?

If you want to start a coefficient thing like soccer - then that is a slippery slope which will only concentrate money around the few clubs/regions that happened to be in the pound seats when the musical chairs stopped.


In the last year, 1 PremierHype team qualified beyond the groups. What is the case for giving that league any more? If the alternative is going to be a league based system, then evaluate the strength of the leagues right now - and right now it would look like the Pro12 is better than the PremierHype... so I don't see the logic of moving places from the stronger to the weaker (and going away from the country system that has worked to date).


Sometimes change is good. Change for change's sake however is almost always a mistake. I don't see the longer term benefit to rugby in the proposed change.

I imagine you'll be pleased as punch in 2 years time when he HEC becomes the exclusive plaything of the Purgatory teams, after the French and English sides f-off and play with the South Africans.

[rustynuts]

you guy's just don't get it do you the Heineken cup's sole purpose and why it was setup was/is to allow the best team's in Europe to compete whit one another regularly and by doing this it would increase the standard of the European game and also the six nation's over time. it has done this to great effect. the french and English have gained enormously directly and indirectly from it. now that the Celtic league is dominating the English and french need to up there standards or they will not be able to compete whit the Celtic league i propose that the aviva premiership and top 14 should do the following to increase standards: cut there league's to just 8 team's and raise there budget cap's to about 7 million per team this would further increase the standard of the European club game also Im heartbroken for the welsh club's to see there best player's being sucked up by the rich french club's so i would like to see restriction's put in place to stop this imbalance. and to the idiot's that want to only allow the top 8 team's in the Celtic league place's in the hcup that would probably lead to only one Scottish and Italian team in the hcup every year this would significantly hurt the Scottish and Italian national side's thus decreasing the standard's of the six nation's therefore hurting all the other side's involved including France and England over time. also tehmite's comment is very childish and ignorant none of the other nation's were treating to leave the hcup when the English were dominating no we welcomed it because they were increasing the standards of the European game just like the celtic league is now.