Originally Posted by Teh Mite
As far as I remember the current system isn't up for review until the end of the 2014 season, so I suppose you're right in a sense.
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Top 8 teams from the RaboPro12, Aviva Premiership and Top 14 qualify
The qualification remains the same as it is currently
As far as I remember the current system isn't up for review until the end of the 2014 season, so I suppose you're right in a sense.
The best part is the certain boost the Amlin would get. Sure, italian teams wouldn't play the Heineken, but would play a much improved Amlin cup.
So I assume that it would be five pools of four, with the three best runners-up (or runner-ups?) going through? Personally, I think four pools of five, with clubs playing each other only once in the pool staes would be better (but less lucrative, so won't happen).
I doubt teams will take it any more seriously. It's still going to be the second competition, regardless of the format changes.
The English (Premiership Rugby) and French (LNR) governing bodies are expecting to face "fierce" opposition from the Celtic unions and Italy over these proposals.
So the proposed tournament format may need to be compromised to make a deal with the Celtic and Italian unions. It is hard to see Italy and Scotland giving up their guaranteed places easily.
The article I left a link to states:
I said my thoughts above on how a potential cup run in the Amlin could be as good for Treviso as being in the Heineken Cup and never realistically having a chance of getting to the quarter finals.Supporters of the current format believe each country should be represented in the Heineken Cup, which they feel is important for the growth of the game particularly in Italy, and that each country has the right to decide the qualification process.
And the growth of the game argument is ridiculous. If Italy cared so much for the growth of the game themselves, then they would have played more than a grand total of 3 matches against Tier 2 sides in between the 2007 and 2011 World Cups, and they are the weakest Tier 1 side.
They don't help grow the game for teams below them, so why should teams above them help them grow?
Last edited by psychic duck; 13-06-12 at 04:03 PM.
Sounds good to me. To be honest I don't think Heineken Cup has developed the Italian clubs that greatly, same can probably be said for the Scottish team. In regards to the Italian teams they have got better by playing in the pro 12 and by playing in the amlin I think their potential growth is even greater.
The proposals seem fair & with the power wielded by France & England I'd imagine they eventually pass.
Fear for the Welsh regions though, could well be lucky to get any of them qualified judging by the current state of affairs. The WRU seriously needs to stand the f**k up and take a far more active role... central contracts, player Exchange due to positional riches/needs etc.
Why do I think it'll take another regional collapse to force their hands.
So the Celtic unions will oppose and... What?
PRL and the French equivalent have said they'll walk away, I doubt the Celts have a leg to stand on there.
Unless, Cotton and Andrew get their way regarding the franchises.
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Ugh, dont say that.
Horrific thought
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This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move"
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the Italian sides from Eccellenza could be ditched completely from Europe in these plans
with the third tier European competition, a much smaller, more cup style, tournament between the non Six Nations European nations
If France and England were to break away from the Heineken cup, would Ireland and Wales (who have no real reason to oppose a change to an 8-teams-from-each-league system, given that most years they'll get three teams into the top 8) be able to ditch Scotland and Italy and join in a new tournament? Or are they tied to Scotland and Italy interests somehow?
They are tied onto the Celtic league, but the CL is not tied to the HEC. As that is one of the things the English & French want changing, the idea of Celts splitting to join an anglo-French league is unlikely.
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The former RFU Chairman Martyn Thomas has said the Celtic Unions will fight tooth and nail to keep the H Cup the way it is, and also had a go at the English and French clubs as being greedy and arrogant. Here is the quote in full.
http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cu...l?CMP=OTC-RSS#"The Celtic Unions have made a pact that this time they will not roll over in the face of any threats," he told The Rugby Paper. "If they keep their nerve when the going gets tough, the French and English clubs will be forced to back down.
"The Welsh, Irish and Scottish Union are determined not to give in. If the English and French clubs don't back down and walk away from the tournament, the Celts will say: 'That's a shame but if you don't want to play in the Heineken Cup as we know it and love it, tough'.
"It's all about brinkmanship. The top English and French clubs are power crazy. They are driven by a join belief that they are the people who command the most money from television for live coverage. That rather flies in the face of the fact that five of the last six teams represented in the last three finals did not come from England. Despite that, they have no regard for the revenue generated by Welsh, Irish and Scottish teams."
He continued: "Like most things in professional sport, this is about money and the English and French teams want more. They may dress it up in all sorts of ways but that's the reality. There will be some tough times ahead."
I really don't understand his point of view. The French and English teams irritation with the way it is seems justified to me.
Sounds like he's trying to get back at the RFU by stirring the pot.
Martyn Thomas is a cock. A cock with a Welsh name.
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I try not to pay too much attention to the RFU, so when I heard about Martyn Thomas getting fired, it took me a minute to realise it wasn't our (ex-)fullback.
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@draggs_XV
I think the LNR teams prefer not to play H Cup than play it under its current format. I don't think it's just an empty threat. If the RFU take a stand as strong as the LNR, which they seem to do, they will manage to change it. Otherwise, the Heineken cup will become a cup with only Irish, Welsh, Scottish an Italian sides... something really unique...
As far as i'm concerned the Welsh Italiens and Scots can play their own cup the English French and Irish can play another, we all know where the competitive rugby will be played never have the above ever been near to winning the H Cup so let them play the Amlin together, until the laws are changed and everybody has to qualify for the H Cup it will never holds its real value.
Wow!
My concern about a new format is how big the Third Tier Cup would be and who would be in it without diluting thin talent pools or adding bad teams - unless the entire Italian league is invited or something. Some change to the actual Heineken Cup format would be helpful, although it would be a shame in a way if some of the Six Nations countries were totally unrepresented.
I don't understand what you're talking about.
A third competition for the Eastern European and Iberian clubs to play in with the top two to qualify for the Amlin Challenge Cup is a great idea.
Hell, why not add the top American and Canadian teams. Might give the North American teams a much needed kick in the pants to get the top tier clubs sorted out over here.
I was referring to the domestic talent pools being too stretched if, say, there were three or four Russian clubs rather than two in it. Let's say there are two sides each from Russia, Georgia, Ukraine and one each from Spain and Portugal - that's an eight team competition. I suppose it wouldn't be too bad, but there wouldn't be quarter finals. It would be interesting to see how such a league would be composed. Adding more Italian sides wouldn't hurt.
Surely a US/Canada/Argentina league would be a better fit?
Maybe, but Europe is actually closer to the USA than Argentina is, plus you don't have to worry about that whole season reverse thing. Although combining the US and Canadian club leagues couldn't hurt. We already do it for all the other sports.Surely a US/Canada/Argentina league would be a better fit?
I'd favour actually a more compact competition: 8 teams for Pro12, 4 from EP and 4 from Top14. FA cup format with home and away games, final played in one of the big stadiums on a rotating base.
You do realise there's not a chance of that happening though right?
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An update on negotiations between the Celts, French and English over tournament format.
The French and English are both firmly agreed that the tournament is trimmed to 20 teams, with the RaboPro12 sides having to earn their place via qualification, and for a new third tournament for Tier 2 European nations' clubs.
The Celtic nations proposed a single extended tournament of 32 teams. With all 12 RaboPro12 sides, 10 Aviva Premiership sides and 12 Top 14 sides involved. This was rejected by the English and French.
The Celtic nations second proposal was for the Heineken Cup to remain the same, with the Amlin Challenge Cup to be reduced to 16 teams. That was also rejected.
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/e...183212028.html
So their way or the highway it looks like. I hope the rabo teams have the backbone to resist it.
That is such a terrible idea.
Was the Celtic League even trying?
Here's one: Every Pro12 team is guaranteed qualifification, alongside ProD2 and Championship basement sides.
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@draggs_XV
I think the extension of the competition would be excellent
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