Spring Tour: South Africa v England -2nd Test. (16/06/2012 15:00GMT)

   
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  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saintjay View Post
    I don't see it as offensive and neither do the Australian or New Zealand advertising boards. I think it is no worse than being called a limey another term that has historic meaning and was just a nickname. I look at it how people from Newcastle tend to when being called a geordie or Liverpool a scouser. As far as I know the term pom has no set date or explanation. Most relate to prisoners in Australia and one theory being it was taken from Prisoner Of the Mother country. As for other names for the english I hope your not refering to bits of my body being dipped in salt water
    Pommy
    The term pommy, pom or pomme,[1] in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, commonly denotes a person of British heritage origin. The term Pommie therefore does not relate exclusively to England; it applies equally to those from Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland. It is a term often confused by Australians who have difficulty in noting the synonymity of the four UK nations. A likely[citation needed] explanation is 'Prisoner of the Mother Country'. A derogatory term, it was controversially ruled no longer offensive in 2006 by the Australian Advertising Standards Board and in 2010 by the New Zealand Broadcasting Standards Authority.[2] Despite these changing views, many British people or those of British origin consider the expression offensive or racist when used by people not of British origin to describe English or British people, yet acceptable when used within that community: for example, the community group British People Against Racial Discrimination was among those who complained to the Advertising Standards Board about five advertisements poking fun at "Poms", prompting the 2006 decision.[3]
    The origin of this term is not confirmed and there are several persistent false etymologies. The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) strongly supports the theory that pommy originated as a contraction of "pomegranate".[4][5][6][7] The OED also suggests that the reason for this is that pomegranate is extinct Australian rhyming slang for immigrant; it cites an article from 14 November 1912, in a once-prominent Australian weekly magazine The Bulletin: "The other day a Pummy Grant (assisted immigrant) was handed a bridle and told to catch a horse." A popular alternative explanation for the theory that pommy is a contraction of "pomegranate", relates to the purported frequency of sunburn among British people in Australia, turning their fair skin the colour of pomegranates.[8] However, there is no hard evidence for the theory regarding sunburn. Pomegranates are also a Middle Eastern fruit and was fairly insignificant fruit in Australia and not well known until recently.[9] Another unofficial explanation is that P.O.M. stands for 'Prisoner of Millbank' or that P.O.H.M.E. stands for 'Prisoner of Her Majesty's Exile'. However, the OED states that there is no evidence for these terms or abbreviations being used and that they are an unlikely source. Historian Richard Holt maintains the origin of the term comes from English cricket tours of Australia where the English gentlemen amateurs would drink Pommery Champagne in preference to Australian beer.[10]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alterna...or_the_British

    Wikipedia's answer to Pommy
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  3. #272
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    To follow the tangent train -

    If some Ozzie or Kiwi came on here acting a tool and calling people pommies, I'd complain and I would regard it as racist. However, as a term of general banter/general nickname, it's fine, although I think limey sounds cooler. One of those borderline words where inflection is all.
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  4. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peat View Post
    To follow the tangent train -

    If some Ozzie or Kiwi came on here acting a tool and calling people pommies, I'd complain and I would regard it as racist. However, as a term of general banter/general nickname, it's fine, although I think limey sounds cooler. One of those borderline words where inflection is all.
    lol, you know, if you say most Afrikaans white people they are racist, 75% won't say or do anything or take exception to it, I hear that on a daily basis based on the work I do, so it's all good...
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  5. #274
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    Pom is fine.

    Likewise for shakle dragger, sheep shagger and humourless racist bastard.

    All fine as they're all in jest.

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  6. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by heineken View Post
    lol, you know, if you say most Afrikaans white people they are racist, 75% won't say or do anything or take exception to it, I hear that on a daily basis based on the work I do, so it's all good...
    I don't consider myself a racist but I wouldn't take offense being called one because being labelled a racists in SA has lost any and all impact as the race card is played at the drop of a hat. I'd assume most of those approximate 75% you speak of fall into the same category as me; fed up and tired regarding anything to do with race and race politics and couldn't give a damn either way.

  7. #276
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    Robshaw is out for the last test.

    All hope lost?

    http://www.rfu.com/News/2012/June/Ne...bshaw_Out.aspx

  8. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patchey View Post
    Robshaw is out for the last test.

    All hope lost?

    http://www.rfu.com/News/2012/June/Ne...bshaw_Out.aspx
    @!&*@$^%

    Anyway, I wonder who will be replacing him. The obvious choice would probably be Haskell. Maybe someone can put their hand up with a big performance on Wednesday?

  9. #278
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    Haskell would be the obvious. I think the game is acctualy on Tuesday so he'd have an extra day to recover? Also, what has happened to Dowson's injury?

  10. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patchey View Post
    Robshaw is out for the last test.

    All hope lost?

    http://www.rfu.com/News/2012/June/Ne...bshaw_Out.aspx
    Deep joy. Apart from are on going mid-field issues, my other worry has been the lack of ball carrying forwards and this has not helped. Haskell maybe for me and Hartley might get the captains shout.

  11. #280
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    Hopefully Haskell starts at 7, not Dowson.
    Looks like Care will start the test, and Waldrom.

    Hopefully Allen can impress to make the test side, but I can't see anyone starting both games, so unless he's hauled off early it won't happen.

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  12. #281
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    Bit late to this thread, but here goes!

    I don't find "pom" remotely offensive / racist. Knowing the history of it, it makes me chuckle that the Aussie want to use a constant reminder that part of the foundation of their country was English rejects to refer to us. By extension, there appears to be a fair bit of rivalry / contempt between Oz and SA / NZ, so it also amuses me when saffers / kiwis choose to borrow the Aussies' phrase for us.

    Re: Botha, he was brought in to the Six Nations to do Lawes' job, something he did reasonably effectively, hence his current position as a starter. This job has proved tougher to do against the South Africans, hence the criticism which I agree with - we have been missing an "enforcer" style second row. Also agree with most of the thoughts about Parling, he has played the "silent assassin" role very well.

    I'm not sure what the answer is at 8. Morgan doesn't look match sharp (although maybe SA deserve credit for keeping him out of the game), so maybe the answer for the last test is starting with Waldrom with Morgan coming off the bench. Going forward, Waldrom can only be seen as a stop gap and the way it stands at the moment, I hope to hell that Morgan gets back on top of his game PDQ!

    Strange thing to say about a 28 year old flanker, but does Johnstone need to be taught to scrummage? I'm not sure anyone has mentioned it, but he gave away a penalty in the first test handling the ball in the scrum rather than putting his boot on it. He could hide behind the law book in this instance, but given the choice of sticking my boot out or conceding a try if the referee / TJ gets it wrong, I know which I would go for.

    Lastly, well done to South Africa, I hope you field a strong side for the last test and don't see why you shouldn't. You're bedding in a few youngsters, so why not give the side another 80 minutes to gel together?

  13. #282
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    Some of the better players this series out injured on both sides; Alberts, J Kruger, Robshaw, Lambie, Oosthuizen and Youngs have all had some outstanding moments. And then Frans Steyn is getting married... wow, we are missing 5 of our best. At least it'll be a good test of depth.

    Considering our squad what i'd like to see for the 3rd test from SA

    1 Mtawarira - no-brainer with Oosthuizen injured and us moving on from Steenkamp
    2 Du Plessis - colossus
    3 Du Plessis - has been in better form than for ages past and the only other tightheads that could push him for his spot aren't in the squad; Cilliers and Mujati
    4 Etzebeth - has shown glimpses of S15 form in the 2nd test, hopefully he continues to grow in stature with the exposure
    5 ? - with Kruger and Bekker out.... Anton Bresler? Emergency call to Danie Rossouw? Play a loosie out of position? Who? Spies maybe? Take a chance on a bolter- Quinn Roux and PS du Toit are young and untested but both have done it at age group... Flip is the only other lock but our line-out has already not been a shining light and our scrum looked weak with him
    in an unfamiliar position. I guess I'll settle on Spies for my picks. He is very capable in the line-outs.
    6 Keegan Daniel - for until Alberts or Burger is fit
    7 Jaques Potgieter - has the abrasiveness that Alberts brought and and that has proven so successful thus far
    8 Marcell Coetzee
    9 Hougaard - needs the test experience at 9 to develop his game further
    10 Steyn - just because Lambie and Goosen are both injured and its pointless to change overly much without a reason
    11 Bjorn Basson - because Habana is breaking himself and we need him for the S15 again LOL
    12 Jean de Villiers
    13 ..... call up De Jongh FFS!!!!!!!; I just can't get myself to call on Olivier.
    14 JP Petersen - I'd keep him at 14; having played 13 all year isn't good for him IMO.
    15 Joe Pietersen


    16 Adriaan Strauss
    17 Werner Kruger - no one else in the squad. I'd call up Pat Cilliers but oh, well. Does anyone know if Greyling has tighthead experience?
    18 Flip vand er Merwe
    19 Joshua Strauss- just to give some fresh faces a go and add hunger and intensity to a team that just might think they have it in the bag beforehand
    20 Ruan Pienaar
    21 Elton Jantjies
    22 Gio Aplon

  14. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patchey View Post
    Robshaw is out for the last test.

    All hope lost?

    http://www.rfu.com/News/2012/June/Ne...bshaw_Out.aspx
    looks that way. We won't know for sure though until we saw Meyer's squad - if he's going to rotate we may stand more chance.

    As for us, Haskell is guaranteed to feature, and likely to start. With injuries, we're left with the following

    Johnson(6), Gibson(6), Dowson(6+8), Haskell(6+7+8), Fearns(6+7+8), Waldrom(8), Morgan(8)

    I think we should try:
    6. Dowson
    7. Haskell
    8. Waldrom/Morgan

    18. Johnson

    BUT, bearing in mind that gives us no extra 7 cover, this is also possible:

    6: Haskell
    7: Fearns
    8: Waldrom/Morgan

    18: Dowson

    That way we arguably have at least two options for each possible.

  15. #284
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    So, Hartley as skipper. Pleasingly, that will annoy sky sports and the part-time rugby fans in equal measure.

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  16. #285
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    I think Dowson will be in over Fearns simply based on the fact that he has been solid for England at test level and Lancaster likes him.

  17. #286
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    What about us referring to Englishmen living in SA as souties?

  18. #287
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    Pieterson was fantastic !
    He did that stupid swan dive on that last penetration for the try, Youngs was right there (!!!!); could've actually countered it lol, what a dumbass !! The camera tried to conceal it, but he pushed him off after the play lol...(Pieterson did).

    Looooove watchin you crazy Boks !
    And congrats again to Lancaster, he seems to be one solid value for England ! It's like they've never had a transition between the Wilko/Moody days and now...
    Bleh.

  19. #288
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    So good news from the Bok camp is that so far only Pat Lambie and Frans Steyn are definitely out for the 3rd test.

    Juandre Kruger was cleared by the scans and trained all day with the team, not showing any pain. Willem Alberts some Medial ligament strain, but they won't do anything until Wednesday with him.

    Joe Pietersen trained as fullback ahead of Aplon, which gives me the idea that if Morne Steyn's kicking boots are still absent, we'll at least have back-up in the starting line up...

    @Stormer2010, regarding Dean Greyling - Yes he can play tight head... He used to play tight head in High School and played a couple of games when he started out in the Vodacom Cup... That being said, Werner Kruger has shown that he can play both Loose head and tight head, so why deviate from it?

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  20. #289
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    England team to face Northern Baa Baa's.

    Nick Abendanon (Bath Rugby); Christian Wade (London Wasps), Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins), Ugo Monye (Harlequins); Charlie Hodgson (Saracens), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints); Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Robson (capt, Harlequins), Jamie Gibson (London Irish), Carl Fearns (Bath Rugby), Ben Morgan (Scarlets).


    Replacements: Joe Gray (Harlequins), Rupert Harden (Gloucester Rugby), Mouritz Botha, (Saracens), James Haskell (Otago Highlanders), Karl Dickson (Harlequins), David Strettle (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby).

  21. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sker View Post
    RedRuthRFC

    What about us referring to Englishmen living in SA as souties?
    Can't say as I'd heard of the term, and Google doesn't enlighten me that much (I'm hoping Wikipedia's bland description is accurate)! I did have a bit of banter with Barry Hilton in Sibaya once, he accused me of being a typical Englishman who turns up with 1,000R and stays for a year, but didn't call me a soutie!

  22. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoe91 View Post
    Pieterson was fantastic !
    He did that stupid swan dive on that last penetration for the try, Youngs was right there (!!!!); could've actually countered it lol, what a dumbass !! The camera tried to conceal it, but he pushed him off after the play lol...(Pieterson did).

    Looooove watchin you crazy Boks !
    And congrats again to Lancaster, he seems to be one solid value for England ! It's like they've never had a transition between the Wilko/Moody days and now...
    I had a good cringe at that dive as well and was very relieved he didn't manage to botch it at the end. Hopefully Meyer told him off afterward and he won't do it again but it just goes to show the delight of the player, particularly after a quiet 1st test.

    Quote Originally Posted by heineken View Post
    So good news from the Bok camp is that so far only Pat Lambie and Frans Steyn are definitely out for the 3rd test.

    Juandre Kruger was cleared by the scans and trained all day with the team, not showing any pain. Willem Alberts some Medial ligament strain, but they won't do anything until Wednesday with him.

    Joe Pietersen trained as fullback ahead of Aplon, which gives me the idea that if Morne Steyn's kicking boots are still absent, we'll at least have back-up in the starting line up...

    @Stormer2010, regarding Dean Greyling - Yes he can play tight head... He used to play tight head in High School and played a couple of games when he started out in the Vodacom Cup... That being said, Werner Kruger has shown that he can play both Loose head and tight head, so why deviate from it?

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    Over the moon to have heard J Kruger and Alberts are well but that said, if Alberts has ANY lingering troubles I hope they don't play him and rather give Potgieter a go. He was the form SA loosie in the S15 for my money.

    Also glad Pietersen is seen ahead of Aplon at 15. Aplon would be most dangerous with 30m to go in any case. I can't see Meyer stripping M Steyn of the kicking duties. I wonder how much of the decisionmaking is left to JdV in that regard and how much is Meyer's instructions. In the other tests we had options in Lambie, F Steyn and Pienaar but stuck to M Steyn. Can't see the trend changing and hope M Steyn has practiced and regains his rythm/confidence as we threw away about 20-25 points in 2 tests now due to missing kicks.

    Regarding W Kruger, I'll be interested to see how he goes. Not sure to what extent other factors might have come into play but we were thoroughly dominated in the scrum at the end there.

  23. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormer2010 View Post
    I had a good cringe at that dive as well and was very relieved he didn't manage to botch it at the end. Hopefully Meyer told him off afterward and he won't do it again but it just goes to show the delight of the player, particularly after a quiet 1st test.



    Over the moon to have heard J Kruger and Alberts are well but that said, if Alberts has ANY lingering troubles I hope they don't play him and rather give Potgieter a go. He was the form SA loosie in the S15 for my money.

    Also glad Pietersen is seen ahead of Aplon at 15. Aplon would be most dangerous with 30m to go in any case. I can't see Meyer stripping M Steyn of the kicking duties. I wonder how much of the decisionmaking is left to JdV in that regard and how much is Meyer's instructions. In the other tests we had options in Lambie, F Steyn and Pienaar but stuck to M Steyn. Can't see the trend changing and hope M Steyn has practiced and regains his rythm/confidence as we threw away about 20-25 points in 2 tests now due to missing kicks.

    Regarding W Kruger, I'll be interested to see how he goes. Not sure to what extent other factors might have come into play but we were thoroughly dominated in the scrum at the end there.
    Yes but that wasn't Werner Kruger's fault (alone). the ref had twice spoken to Corbisiero, the one time you could clearly hear him say "I can't do that if you don't attempt to bind". and also Juandre Kruger went off, leaving us with 2 "4-locks" and Bismarck was also subbed. While I really like Strauss in a running mode, his scrummaging hasn't been part of his arsenal.

    Interesting news conference last night on Blitz - Where the Boks defence coach said that Wynand Olivier has so far been the best defender in the 2 tests for the backs... How he got that is any man's guess. But it sounds like Meisiekind is a shoe-in for the 12 jersey (yes, my fellow Saffas, even as a Bulls supporter, I'll cringe along with you for that one).
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  24. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by heineken View Post
    Yes but that wasn't Werner Kruger's fault (alone). the ref had twice spoken to Corbisiero, the one time you could clearly hear him say "I can't do that if you don't attempt to bind". and also Juandre Kruger went off, leaving us with 2 "4-locks" and Bismarck was also subbed. While I really like Strauss in a running mode, his scrummaging hasn't been part of his arsenal.

    Interesting news conference last night on Blitz - Where the Boks defence coach said that Wynand Olivier has so far been the best defender in the 2 tests for the backs... How he got that is any man's guess. But it sounds like Meisiekind is a shoe-in for the 12 jersey (yes, my fellow Saffas, even as a Bulls supporter, I'll cringe along with you for that one).
    I know and that's why I would like to see what Kruger can do with the same chances as Jannie. Another change was Daniel coming in for Alberts. Might also have contributed to a smallish loss of power in the scrum.

    I hope Meisiekind has a good game but I wouldn't want him to become a regular fixture at 12 (or 22 for that matter).

  25. #294
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    I think Haskell for England has to come in. I am not convinced with Dowson BUT Lancaster likes him.
    I like to know if Barrit come in as well, maybe as a sub, as we need a solid defence to stabalise from kick-off then bring on JJ to open up the Boks.

    One thing we have to remember guys is that Lancaster has the privilege of watching the players train, he knows their game inside out, he knows their fitness levels, strength level etc etc. So if he picks someone he has all that factored in. We only see the players play and there is so many variables in the game that cloud our judgement (e.g JJ didnt do any runs to us it seem he was a failure BUT the game and Boks didnt allow him to but the ability is there).

  26. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patchey View Post
    Robshaw is out for the last test.

    All hope lost?

    http://www.rfu.com/News/2012/June/Ne...bshaw_Out.aspx
    What hope?

    But yeah, that's gone.

    Honestly not sure what to do with the back-row. I want Haskell in, but not at 8. But I want two guys that hit rucks, so that's not really possible with TtTE/Morgan. I'd like Gibson to play 7, but I can tell there's not a way in hell that'll happen. Which makes Dowson/Johnson the best combination, except they're blatantly just giving away too much in size and power.

    It's all a clusterf**k. Still, I suppose most teams begin to feel that way when for various reasons their 5 best back-rowers aren't available.
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    I would love to see Potgieter play for the Boks, we haven't had a player in this mould since Juan Smith
    Whatever happened when Werner Kruger came on would have been analysed and corrected by the Bok management team, in my opinion it was a set of circumstances and they will learn form it

    I for one are not fussed by Wynand Olivier at 12, he last played his best rugga when Heyneke Meyer was involved at the Bulls, think and hope he will cope
    Hoping to see little Jo at 15 and later on Aplon

  28. #297
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    Is it weird I would rather start Oliver than bench him? He is the worst impact player in the history of the game....


  29. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by peanuts40 View Post
    Is it weird I would rather start Oliver than bench him? He is the worst impact player in the history of the game....
    I feel exactly the same! he's like a marathon athlete, not a sprinter...
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    Quote Originally Posted by peanuts40 View Post
    Is it weird I would rather start Oliver than bench him? He is the worst impact player in the history of the game....
    Nope. He is a solid enough player but brings nothing off of the bench. I totally agree with your sentiments. With him there I can just see England throwing Tuilagi at him all night.. with little consequence as I rate him as a defender but I'd have JdV organize the whole.

  31. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormer2010 View Post
    Nope. He is a solid enough player but brings nothing off of the bench. I totally agree with your sentiments. With him there I can just see England throwing Tuilagi at him all night.. with little consequence as I rate him as a defender but I'd have JdV organize the whole.
    Now that you mention Tuilagi, was he even on the pitch Saturday?? that had to be one of his quietest games ever...
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