Samoa v Scotland.

[welshglory]

Very worrying times for Scotland indeed. This was a match to win by 20 points. There is a massive shortage of Scottish talent and many of them are people born elsewhere. Sean Lamont on the wing is a no-go. Far too slow. 12 is his position or out of the team. Like likes of Tim Visser, Max Evans, Alex Grove, John Barclay, Tom Ryder and Dave Denton were all born abroad. Richie Grey continues to be the only Scottish star produced at home.

Moreoever, the sport is struggling for a profile and really if Scotland fail at RWC 2015, which is likely, then it could really go bad. Scotland not impressing at England 2015 is unthinkable but very possible.

NO. He may have been born in Hong Kong but he's a Scot through and through. Don't you dare use that.
Are Jonathan Davies, Dan Lydiate, George North, Aaron Shingler and Luke Charteris not Welsh because they were born in England?

I think you are massively underestimating Scotland and i know that you want them to fail, so that Georgia can "take over", so don't go on starting sensationalism like this crap.

Let's put in perspective they were playing in Samoa against Samoa who i would consider to be in tier 1 now, better than Italy and on their day up their with Ireland and Wales.
And i don't think there is a shortage of talent in Scotland. They have quite a lot of good youngsters coming through their clubs, the only problem is that there are only 2 clubs so it's hard for some players to break through. The Scottish clubs also look to be improving financially and performance wise, both clubs have made some good signings to strengthen their squads.

For all their failings, Scotland are still a good rugby team and they were very close in the 6 nations to getting some results. I don't think they are going to win the 6 nations any time soon, but they aren't that bad. Still much better than Georgia and Romania.

[Melhor Time]

NO. He may have been born in Hong Kong but he's a Scot through and through. Don't you dare use that.
Are Jonathan Davies, Dan Lydiate, George North, Aaron Shingler and Luke Charteris not Welsh because they were born in England?

I think you are massively underestimating Scotland and i know that you want them to fail, so that Georgia can "take over", so don't go on starting sensationalism like this crap.

Let's put in perspective they were playing in Samoa against Samoa who i would consider to be in tier 1 now, better than Italy and on their day up their with Ireland and Wales.
And i don't think there is a shortage of talent in Scotland. They have quite a lot of good youngsters coming through their clubs, the only problem is that there are only 2 clubs so it's hard for some players to break through. The Scottish clubs also look to be improving financially and performance wise, both clubs have made some good signings to strengthen their squads.

For all their failings, Scotland are still a good rugby team and they were very close in the 6 nations to getting some results. I don't think they are going to win the 6 nations any time soon, but they aren't that bad. Still much better than Georgia and Romania.

The last thing I want is for Scotland to fail.

You mention Georgia and there is an important thing to note in the differences. Georgia = Georgians while Scotland has many imports. Many teams have imports, its normal. However, all cases are different. For me, an adult changing nation = wrong. The only exceptions being people who moved because of unusual circumstance such as war, poverty or a significant crime of some kind.

Someone, however, who was a child or still in school when moving is a different scenario in my view. 18 is the age for voting in most places. It is considered adult age. Its what I also use as the cut off though with leeway. i´ve got no issues with a 20 year old changing but thats the limit.

Samoa, are Tier Two officially and I think its fair. Loads of imports in the national team, though Samoans tend to feel its about blood and not citizenship.

You´ve touched on the major flaw of Scottish rugby - only 2 sides. There are no signs of a Borders side returning or one from anywhere else. Edinburgh may have been a H Cup Semi Finalists but was so poor in the Pro 12 that it would have meant relegation in the Top 14. People dion´t dupport wither Edinburgh or Glasgow. They need reason to... The national team is not good enough and crowrds will stay away as long as this continues. Should Scotland fail at the World Cup in England it could be doom and gloom. Hopefully not but it would certainly give the rugby haters more reason....

[psychic duck]

Very worrying times for Scotland indeed. This was a match to win by 20 points. There is a massive shortage of Scottish talent and many of them are people born elsewhere. Sean Lamont on the wing is a no-go. Far too slow. 12 is his position or out of the team. Like likes of Tim Visser, Max Evans, Alex Grove, John Barclay, Tom Ryder and Dave Denton were all born abroad. Richie Grey continues to be the only Scottish star produced at home.

Moreoever, the sport is struggling for a profile and really if Scotland fail at RWC 2015, which is likely, then it could really go bad. Scotland not impressing at England 2015 is unthinkable but very possible.

NO. He may have been born in Hong Kong but he's a Scot through and through. Don't you dare use that.
Are Jonathan Davies, Dan Lydiate, George North, Aaron Shingler and Luke Charteris not Welsh because they were born in England?

I think you are massively underestimating Scotland and i know that you want them to fail, so that Georgia can "take over", so don't go on starting sensationalism like this crap.

Let's put in perspective they were playing in Samoa against Samoa who i would consider to be in tier 1 now, better than Italy and on their day up their with Ireland and Wales.

And i don't think there is a shortage of talent in Scotland. They have quite a lot of good youngsters coming through their clubs, the only problem is that there are only 2 clubs so it's hard for some players to break through. The Scottish clubs also look to be improving financially and performance wise, both clubs have made some good signings to strengthen their squads.

For all their failings, Scotland are still a good rugby team and they were very close in the 6 nations to getting some results. I don't think they are going to win the 6 nations any time soon, but they aren't that bad. Still much better than Georgia and Romania.

I have to agree with welshglory here,

there is no way Samoa are a "team to beat by 20 points", thanks to some quality players like Paul Williams and Kahn Fotuali'i becoming available, and them being able to get players like Cencus Johnston available more often, they have become arguably as strong as they ever have

This Samoa side isn't a side for Scotland to beat by 20 points at home never mind away, maybe Fiji are, but not Samoa. The Samoans gave Wales a very hard match in the World Cup, and South Africa a hard match and they are both better than Scotland, so Scotland should be pleased with this result, especially as it was played in conditions that most of the Scottish had never ever experienced ever before.

I don't see how you can rate Samoa as that bad, they are certainly the best side outside Tier 1, and right now better than Italy as well.

Also it seems a bit strange to write off Scotland's future at 2015 just as they win three matches from three this June.

Finally if there are players who are qualified for Scotland (like WP Nel is), and they are better than the Scots there is nothing illegal with selecting them, and also it's hardly as if Scotland's the only one. So let's not start this whole nation debate for the 60 millionth time, Andy Robinson's job is on the line and he wants to have the best players possible to help him.

You cite Sean Lamont pace as a weakness, but although he isn't the quickest he is a solid defender, and won't lose a game, even if he doesn't win one.

Scotland are in a much healthier position than Italy at the minute, who's U20's team got thumped in the JWC and relegated to the JWRT.

[welshglory]

I would actually have Sean Lamont as 4th choice wing if he was Welsh. North, Cuthbert and Halfpenny ahead of him but he's better than the rest of our wingers (at the moment)

[welshglory]

The last thing I want is for Scotland to fail.

You mention Georgia and there is an important thing to note in the differences. Georgia = Georgians while Scotland has many imports. Many teams have imports, its normal. However, all cases are different. For me, an adult changing nation = wrong. The only exceptions being people who moved because of unusual circumstance such as war, poverty or a significant crime of some kind.

Someone, however, who was a child or still in school when moving is a different scenario in my view. 18 is the age for voting in most places. It is considered adult age. Its what I also use as the cut off though with leeway. i´ve got no issues with a 20 year old changing but thats the limit.

Samoa, are Tier Two officially and I think its fair. Loads of imports in the national team, though Samoans tend to feel its about blood and not citizenship.

You´ve touched on the major flaw of Scottish rugby - only 2 sides. There are no signs of a Borders side returning or one from anywhere else. Edinburgh may have been a H Cup Semi Finalists but was so poor in the Pro 12 that it would have meant relegation in the Top 14. People dion´t dupport wither Edinburgh or Glasgow. They need reason to... The national team is not good enough and crowrds will stay away as long as this continues. Should Scotland fail at the World Cup in England it could be doom and gloom. Hopefully not but it would certainly give the rugby haters more reason....

Maybe it's because there aren't exactly a lot of people around the world with Georgian blood, there are a lot more people around the world with Scottish ancestry, and even if they did have i don't think many would want to go and play/work in Georgia. The Georgian rugby union also have a good selection process but that is a major factor

[Melhor Time]

Maybe it's because there aren't exactly a lot of people around the world with Georgian blood, there are a lot more people around the world with Scottish ancestry, and even if they did have i don't think many would want to go and play/work in Georgia. The Georgian rugby union also have a good selection process but that is a major factor

Without question and I am certainly not challenging this at all.

The point I am trying to make is that it is very concerning when a Tier One rugby nation is not able to produce enough good players. There will always be elligible players from abroad but they should not be required, rather surplus who happen to be better than the best player in his position. This suggests that the foreigner is better than a great player. For instance Sivivatu better than Howlett rather than being picked because there is nobody national good enough.

Both yourself and Psychic Duck have said Scotland (and Samoa) are better than Italy at the moment. It could well be the case - and, crucially, Italy does not have a factory producing players just like Scotland doesn´t. However, consider that Scotland lost in Rome recently with Lamont and Evans as wingers. They are Scotland´ best 12-13 combo in my opinion but I am happy with Evans on the wing with Ansbro at 13. Tim Visser is certainly the best man for the 11 shirt with Evans thus being the 14. Aside from these players there is not a lot really. Nick da Luca and Lee Jones being the players. Hardly contenders for Lions places now are they.....

Psychic duck

Selecting foreigners is not over to me. But there is a point top make - just because everyone is doing it it doesn´t mean it is right. If Scotland want Tim Visser, JP Nel and others thats fine. Some people I have talked to, many infact, lose respect for teams doing this. It gives them an image that a team is not the real thing. Dusautoir is not from France but was raised there and that is where is learned rugby. Scotland did this with neither Visser nor Nel.

Of course, there is a lot of time to go before 2015 and saying Scotland are doomed is the worst case scenario. The problem is I am finding mroe reasons, not less to see it as a possibility. Sure, winning three from three is a massive thing but this was not a Samoan side at full strength nor were either or Fiji or Australia.

Sean Lamont as a centre is very good. As a winger he is passed it. You should know having seen this video before...



There are two reasons why Samoa should lose by 20.

1. Aside from todays match there have been 7 tests. Scotland winning 7 and 1 draw. Samoa was strongest in the 1990s. There was one draw between the sides with Scotland winning the two others matches by scores of 28-6 and 35-20. Then in 2000 Scotland won 31-8.. Next was 2004 with Scotland winning 38-3. the following year Scotland won 18-11. While more recently Scotland won 19-16 in Aberdeen two years ago. Samoa should have won in Aberdeen.

2. Scotland was close to full strenght, fielding European professionals. All are players from notable teams and they get plenty of game time. Samoa had three amateurs starting, three others on the bench and a number of players who are not Samoa´ best and don´t get too much game time for their pro teams. Scotland should have won by a lot more against this Samoan side given the players that both teams fielded.

Throw in Mapusua, Tuilagi, Schwalger, Stowers, Fuimanolo-Sapolu, George Pisi, Tagicakibau, there and then, yes I would say its a different team altogether and would not say Samoa should be losing by 20. They all, incidently played vs Wales in the World Cup - all seven of them! To me, this just underlines the extent of the problems for Scotland.

15 Autagavai
14 Perez
13 Otto (Bristol - English second division)
12 Williams
11 Lemi
10 Pisi
9 Fotualíi
8 Thompson
7 Fa´asavalu
6 Masoe
5 Crichton
4 Lemalu
3 Johnson
2 Paulo
1 Taulafo

16 Avei
17 Mulipola
18 Tekori
19 Aioni
20 Sua
21 Anufe
22 Lui

[Muzzy]

NO. He may have been born in Hong Kong but he's a Scot through and through. Don't you dare use that.
Are Jonathan Davies, Dan Lydiate, George North, Aaron Shingler and Luke Charteris not Welsh because they were born in England?

I think you are massively underestimating Scotland and i know that you want them to fail, so that Georgia can "take over", so don't go on starting sensationalism like this crap.

Let's put in perspective they were playing in Samoa against Samoa who i would consider to be in tier 1 now, better than Italy and on their day up their with Ireland and Wales.
And i don't think there is a shortage of talent in Scotland. They have quite a lot of good youngsters coming through their clubs, the only problem is that there are only 2 clubs so it's hard for some players to break through. The Scottish clubs also look to be improving financially and performance wise, both clubs have made some good signings to strengthen their squads.

For all their failings, Scotland are still a good rugby team and they were very close in the 6 nations to getting some results. I don't think they are going to win the 6 nations any time soon, but they aren't that bad. Still much better than Georgia and Romania.

After watching Samoa's game against Japan last week, where Samoa only won by a point after coming back from 16-0 down. I can see why Melhor thought this current Samoan team, was a team Scotland should beat by 20 points. I haven't seen this game yet I forgot it was on yesterday, either Samoa fixed their mistakes from last week and improved or Scotland were poor. But Samoa are known to pick it up for games like this, so maybe thats what happened, just saying I can see where Melhor was coming from

[psychic duck]

Maybe it's because there aren't exactly a lot of people around the world with Georgian blood, there are a lot more people around the world with Scottish ancestry, and even if they did have i don't think many would want to go and play/work in Georgia. The Georgian rugby union also have a good selection process but that is a major factor

Selecting foreigners is not over to me. But there is a point top make - just because everyone is doing it it doesn´t mean it is right. If Scotland want Tim Visser, JP Nel and others thats fine. Some people I have talked to, many infact, lose respect for teams doing this. It gives them an image that a team is not the real thing. Dusautoir is not from France but was raised there and that is where is learned rugby. Scotland did this with neither Visser nor Nel.

Another nationality debate .... yawn

Of course, there is a lot of time to go before 2015 and saying Scotland are doomed is the worst case scenario. The problem is I am finding mroe reasons, not less to see it as a possibility. Sure, winning three from three is a massive thing but this was not a Samoan side at full strength nor were either or Fiji or Australia.

yes, Scotland are by no means great, but I can't see them facing some sort of doomsday, they will likely stay about the level they are at now, I don't see much difference in the health of the Scottish game now as there was before five years ago anyway

There are two reasons why Samoa should lose by 20.

1. Aside from todays match there have been 7 tests. Scotland winning 7 and 1 draw. Samoa was strongest in the 1990s. There was one draw between the sides with Scotland winning the two others matches by scores of 28-6 and 35-20. Then in 2000 Scotland won 31-8.. Next was 2004 with Scotland winning 38-3. the following year Scotland won 18-11. While more recently Scotland won 19-16 in Aberdeen two years ago. Samoa should have won in Aberdeen.

those are old results, and from memory Samoa got crap teams throughout the middle of the last decade, only recently have they got players like Fotuali'i, Paul Williams and Pisi available

teams change, Georgia lost 84-6 to England in 2003, 8 years on they are much stronger, Wales lost 55-3 to New Zealand in 2003, doesn't mean that something similar is expected now

the only result of any relevance to a guide of the outcome of this match was the one in 2010 as the teams were similar, and that was just 2 points

those other results are a poor reason as to why to expect Samoa to lose by 20

2. Scotland was close to full strenght, fielding European professionals. All are players from notable teams and they get plenty of game time. Samoa had three amateurs starting, three others on the bench and a number of players who are not Samoa´ best and don´t get too much game time for their pro teams. Scotland should have won by a lot more against this Samoan side given the players that both teams fielded.

Throw in Mapusua, Tuilagi, Schwalger, Stowers, Fuimanolo-Sapolu, George Pisi, Tagicakibau, there and then, yes I would say its a different team altogether and would not say Samoa should be losing by 20. They all, incidently played vs Wales in the World Cup - all seven of them! To me, this just underlines the extent of the problems for Scotland.

being amateur doesn't necessarily bad player though, most Tier 2 players will start off at that level and be unheard of, it's like expecting Tomás Cubelli to be much worse than Toulouse's Vergallo because he's based in Argentina, I would take Irakli Machkhaneli of Georgia, over the professional Nick de Luca any day in my team

importantly, the spine of the pack, including two very good front rowers, and a good back rower with two good half backs are there, some of the most important positions on the pitch, therefore meaning there were in no way easy pickings for Scotland to expect a 20 point win, that is thoroughly underestimating Samoa

finally, if Scotland beat Fiji by 12 points, then judging from that result it was highly unrealistic and silly to expect more against a better drilled, stronger side in Samoa, so there was no way Scotland should have won by 20 points

[Muzzy]

Here's the full game, Watching it now, apparently it was streamed free on a Samoan site. The main commentator is even worse than the fijian one haha, the co-commentator was really good though

Sean Lamont as a centre is very good. As a winger he is passed it. You should know having seen this video before...

meh tbh Lamont wasn't running full pace there, he was slowing down at the end coz he was trying to time the ball so he could either pick it up or kick it again, he didn't wanna run past the ball

[Super Sub]

A bit disappointing to lose like that but credit to the Scots for clinching it at the death. I thought our boys played alright and probably looked the better team on the day. There were no game stats but I think it would've tipped in our favor.

I think the biggest play of the game was the charge-down, because that kept the Scots in our 22, which meant we had to defend in our own redzone again, after defending our line for 8 minutes already - had that ball gone down field, it might've been a different result as I couldn't see Scotland scoring a long range try.

Scotland have been great down here, so I hope they come back down again. I now know who I should support in the 6 Nations.

[HB Scot]

So in summary Scotland won three from three and blooded in a couple new players whilst climbing the rankings. Wales showed that are still to nieve when it comes to closing out winnable games. Ireland prove nothing that we already knew, which is they have one passion fuelled performance once in a blue moon.
Fingers crossed that Scotland build on their recent success and can put in a good showing in the Autumn and into the Six Nations 1213.

[Muzzy]

A bit disappointing to lose like that but credit to the Scots for clinching it at the death. I thought our boys played alright and probably looked the better team on the day. There were no game stats but I think it would've tipped in our favor.

I think the biggest play of the game was the charge-down, because that kept the Scots in our 22, which meant we had to defend in our own redzone again, after defending our line for 8 minutes already - had that ball gone down field, it might've been a different result as I couldn't see Scotland scoring a long range try.

Scotland have been great down here, so I hope they come back down again. I now know who I should support in the 6 Nations.

I agree about Samoa being the better team on the day, they should have won that game. The referee disallowed one of Samoa's try's just before half time because he said Tusi Pisi knocked it on, but the replay showed that he didn't knock it on, that should have been a try. And that one with Paul Perez was really close too, if he touched the sideline it must have been only just, could have easily been another try to Samoa.

And I don't like the way that ref calls the scrums, he's the same ref from all of scotland's games on this tour. He will have a big pause between "touch" and "pause" and then he'll say "engage" almost right after saying "pause", the scots knew they could engage as soon as the ref said Pause

[Sam Owen]

Dam, no highlights package on youtube, you have to watch the whole thing.

So we lost, dissapointing, but from the sounds of the post we did ok.