33 man Pumas squad named for training in the USA

[Melhor Time]

33 names and the squad will be cut to 30 for TRC.

15 backs and 18 forwards.

Aside from Rodrigo Roncero coming out of retirement there are no surprizes in the players named. Phelan will cut one scrumhalf (possibly Landajo) , one hooker (possibly Guiñazú) and one backrower (possibly Leonardí) out. No players are on standby. 7 from Los Pampas XV are included.

1	Horacio Agulla	Bath	England
2	Patricio Albacete	Stade Toulousian	France
3	Marcos Ayerza	Leicester Tigers	England
4	Marcelo Bosch	Biarritz	France
5	Martín Bustos Moyano	Montpellier	France
6	Maximilano Bustos	Montpellier	France
7	Gonzalo Camacho	Exeter Chiefs	England
8	Rafael Carballo	Bordeaux Begles	France
9	Manuel Carizza	Biarritz	France
10	Agustín Creevy	Montepellier	France
11	Tomas Cubelli	Los Pampas XV	Argentina
12	Tomas De La Vega	Los Pampas XV	Argentina
13	Julio Farías Cabello	Los Pampas XV	Argentina
14	Juan Fernández Lobbe	Toulon	France
15	Santiago Fernández	Montpellier	France
16	Juan Figallo	Montpellier	France
17	Agustín Figuerola	Brive	France
18	Alvaro Galindo	Racing Métro	France
19	Lucas González Amorosino	Montpellier	France
20	Eusebio Guiñazú	Biarritz	France
21	Juan Martín Hernández	Racing Métro	France
22	Juan Imhoff	Racing Métro	France
23	Martín Landajo	Los Pampas XV	Argentina
24	Juan Leguizamón	Lyon	France
25	Tomás Leonardi	Los Pampas XV	Argentina
26	Juan Pablo Orlandi	Racing Métro	France
27	Bruno Postiglioni	Los Pampas XV	Argentina
28	Martin Rodríguez	Stade Français	France
29	Rodrigo Roncero	Unattached
30	Nicolás Sánchez	Bordeaux Begles	France
31	Leonardo Senatore	Los Pampas XV	Argentina
32	Tomás Vallejos	Harlequins	England
33	Nicolás Vergallo	Stade Toulousian	France

Click here for further info.

[Feicarsinn]

No Mieres? Injured?

[TRF_Darwin]

Great work Melhor!

The inclusion of Argentina has certainly makes the tournament more interesting from my perspective - it is going to be great finding out about a whole new set of players. Who do you predict will be in Argentina's starting XV (and reserves) when they kick-off their campaign against the Boks in Newlands?

[dudeabides]

I live in Pensacola, could I go see it? I tried to google it but couldn't find the locale or even if they're open to visitors at all anytime.

[stormer2010]

Thanks, Melhor. I know most of those players already but havn't really been following their careers all that closely.

I'm with Darwin on this one; it's a breath of fresh air and I feel it has taken too long. Playing each other 3 times each year (along with the mini 'tests' in S15; Bulls vs Crusaders for instance) has gotten a bit much for me.

[psychic duck]

No Mieres? Injured?

I can explain this one Feicarsinn, the UAR (the Argentine governing body) made an arrangement with the European clubs that players who play in the June tests couldn't play in the 4 Nations.

This is why most of Argentina's key players have been missing from the matches against Italy and France. Mieres played in June so couldn't play in the 4 Nations it's the same situation for Contepomi as well. The only players in this squad who have played in June are Argentine based players and unattached players such as Roncero who is retiring after this tournament, and Guiñazu who has been released by Biarritz.

The arrangement with the European clubs has been made so their Argentine players who they employ, won't be tired for the domestic season, and to prevent Argentine players being released by European clubs in mass.

Personally I think the arrangement is one of the most stupid I've seen, as common sense is ignored in it.

For example, a player like Nicolás Vergallo has played very little for Toulouse this season and there is no reason why playing in June would harm him or tire him out given his lack of game time with his club, yet he can't play in June thanks to this arrangement.

Another example is a player like Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe who has spent the majority of the season injured and would benefit from game time in June to continue regaining form, bur can't play to this arrangement.

Another example of this arrangement being stupid, is a player like Mieres could play amazingly in June, but couldn't get called up to the 4 Nations squad as he played in June (unless the Pumas were to break the agreement which would surely result in some compensation or something).

Finally, thanks to this arrangement no combinations can be experimented in the June tests and the first 4 Nations match for Argentina will be the first match together for combinations to develop.

The agreement with the European clubs is very inflexible, and doesn't take into account individual player circumstances and lacks common sense. And if a better one isn't sorted in the future, then basically every June tour to Argentina will be a joke.

Great work Melhor!

The inclusion of Argentina has certainly makes the tournament more interesting from my perspective - it is going to be great finding out about a whole new set of players. Who do you predict will be in Argentina's starting XV (and reserves) when they kick-off their campaign against the Boks in Newlands?

Phelan is quite conservative with his selections, he tends to put form players onto the bench before putting them into the starting lineup, so there may not be too much change from the World Cup side, just with Hernández at 10 instead of Contepomi and Ayerza starting instead of Roncero, hopefully Amorosino and Imhoff starting but then Phelan didn't start them at the World Cup even when it was very obvious they should start.

Phelan will cut one scrumhalf (possibly Landajo) , one hooker (possibly Guiñazú) and one backrower (possibly Leonardí) out.

Why do you keep saying Phelan will prefer Cubelli to Landajo? That's just what you prefer, most signs point that Landajo is the preferred option, he started more Vodacom Cup games including the Quarter Final, and also started more times in June including the wins.

[William18]

So, generally speaking, is this Argentina's top team? I know they are missing a few players. Any players in that squad who played against France?

[ZeFrenchy]

So, by position, it would be:
Hookers: Creevy, Posiglioni, Guiñazú
Props: Ayerza, Bustos, Figallo, Orlandi, Roncero
Locks: Albacete, Carizza, Vallejos, Farías Cabello
Backrowers: Carballo, De la Vega, Fernández Lobbe, Galindo, Leguizamón, Leonardi, Senatore
Scrum-halves: Cubelli, Figuerola, Landajo, Vergallo
Inside backs/midfielders: Bosch, Fernández, Sánchez
Outside backs: Agulla, Bustos Moyano, Camacho, González Amorosino, Imhoff
Utility backs: Hernández, Rodríguez Gurruchaga

Orlandi and Galindo's call ups are a season or two late: they haven't been nearly as good this year as they were last season. In the past they didn't play well for Argentina, so they were left out and now they're called back when they're out of form... I don't really see the point of it. I'm surprised also not to see any of the JWC players involved. I assume they preferred to allow them prepare their first professional season with their clubs. I think the young lock that captained the side and that was hired by Stade français would have been a better option than Vallejo or Farías (who, from the numbers, I assume is being taken as a lock).

In the forwards, I'd think there os a group of sure starters: Creevy, Albacete, JMFL, Leguizamón. Both specialist tightheads are a level down in terms of open play from the looseheads, and as Figallo and Ayerza can play tighthead, they will probabaly be the starting pair (certainly against Australia at least). De la Vega was very impressive in June. A true openside that Argentina haven't had since Phelan himself, I think he will start. Given that Vallejo is rather average and tha Farias isn't really a lock, I think Carizza will start next to Albacete.

In the backs there is more room for rotation, as there are many polyfunctional players of similar level. Probably Hernández is the only one (in Phelan's mind) to have a spot rather safe if uninjured, and I'd think Santiago Fernández is quite certain to start most games. On form, Phelan would have to be out of his mind to leave Imhoff and Amorosino out, but it would be a type of decision that's not unheard of coming from him.

[Melhor Time]

Great work Melhor!

The inclusion of Argentina has certainly makes the tournament more interesting from my perspective - it is going to be great finding out about a whole new set of players. Who do you predict will be in Argentina's starting XV (and reserves) when they kick-off their campaign against the Boks in Newlands?

Going off comments in the Argentine press I´d say the team could well be as follows

15 Amorosino, 14 Agulla, 13 Rodríguez, 12 Fernández, 11 Imhoff, 10 Hernández, 9 Vergallo, 8 Fernández Lobbe, 7 Leguizamón, 6 De La Vega, 5 Albacete, 4 Carizza, 3 Figallo, 2 Creevy, 1 Ayerza

16 Guiñazú, 17 Roncero, 18 Farías, 19 Galindo, 20 Cubelli, 21 Bosch, 22 Camacho

I´d change it a little. i.e. 14 Bustos Moyano and 13 Agulla. Bustos Moyano is the leading goalkicker. Plus the bench. I would not pick Guiñazú but Phelan probably will due to his obsession with having two props on the bench. Guiñazú was good 5 years ago but not today. Senatore should be the #19 but was poor vs France in Tucumán so now I don´t really mind if its him or Galindo. Cubelli will be Argentina´starting scrumhalf in 12 months. He´s just turned 23. Vergallo has no running game. He´s just a great organizer esp in defence. I question whether this will be enough vs the worlds top 3.

I live in Pensacola, could I go see it? I tried to google it but couldn't find the locale or even if they're open to visitors at all anytime.

Click here to see the facilities.

1020 Gulf Breeze Parkway
Gulf Breeze, FL 32561

I can explain this one Feicarsinn, the UAR (the Argentine governing body) made an arrangement with the European clubs that players who play in the June tests couldn't play in the 4 Nations.

Why do you keep saying Phelan will prefer Cubelli to Landajo? That's just what you prefer, most signs point that Landajo is the preferred option, he started more Vodacom Cup games including the Quarter Final, and also started more times in June including the wins.

This is true. However, each player has individual circumstances. Biarritz, for instance, gave Guiñazú a new contract saying sign it or go play in TRC. Similar thing happend with Carizza but the same club signed Bosch without any such hassles. Stade Français are being said to not want to release Contepomi while the same club is happy for Rodríguez to be released and he just signed on for two more years. The UAR is really just trying its best to show good will. This is also World Cup year (still) which means it would be madness to have fielded the top players in June. Some, like you have rightly pointed out, shoud have. Vergallo, Fernández Lobbe, etc. I am happy that Cubelli and Landajo were used though. In the end while it was not the real test side Argentina are a lot better off now than one month ago.

Incidently, Mieres is not rated by Phelan. Going off others comments, Phelan thinks the order is Hernández, Fernández, Bosch, Sánchez. 12 months ago Sánchez was ahead of Mieres without question. Not now, as Mieres was really good for Exeter but its a hard call as Sánchez had a bad injury for much of the season.

Cubelli captained Los Pampas XV in warmup matches this year. Argentine fans I know and the press I have read indicated Cubelli is considered better than Landajo. Cubelli´s disadvantage is that he ahs been in the set up for less time than Landajo who is into his fourth year. Argentina are looking for more tries. Cubelli is the better of the two.

So, generally speaking, is this Argentina's top team? I know they are missing a few players. Any players in that squad who played against France?

Those who faced France are Tomás Cubelli, Tomás De La Vega, Julio Farías, Eusebio Guiñazú, Martín Landajo, Tomás Leonardí, Bruno Postiglioni and Leonardo Senatore. Rodrigo Roncero played against Italy.

In February the UAR signed ten players on pro contracts. Cubelli, De La Vega, Farías, Landajo, Leonardí and Postiglioni were all signed. Guiñazú and Senatore were not as they were playing in France at the time.

So, by position, it would be:
Hookers: Creevy, Posiglioni, Guiñazú
Props: Ayerza, Bustos, Figallo, Orlandi, Roncero
Locks: Albacete, Carizza, Vallejos, Farías Cabello
Backrowers: Carballo, De la Vega, Fernández Lobbe, Galindo, Leguizamón, Leonardi, Senatore
Scrum-halves: Cubelli, Figuerola, Landajo, Vergallo
Inside backs/midfielders: Bosch, Fernández, Sánchez
Outside backs: Agulla, Bustos Moyano, Camacho, González Amorosino, Imhoff
Utility backs: Hernández, Rodríguez Gurruchaga

Orlandi and Galindo's call ups are a season or two late: they haven't been nearly as good this year as they were last season. In the past they didn't play well for Argentina, so they were left out and now they're called back when they're out of form... I don't really see the point of it. I'm surprised also not to see any of the JWC players involved. I assume they preferred to allow them prepare their first professional season with their clubs. I think the young lock that captained the side and that was hired by Stade français would have been a better option than Vallejo or Farías (who, from the numbers, I assume is being taken as a lock).

In the forwards, I'd think there os a group of sure starters: Creevy, Albacete, JMFL, Leguizamón. Both specialist tightheads are a level down in terms of open play from the looseheads, and as Figallo and Ayerza can play tighthead, they will probabaly be the starting pair (certainly against Australia at least). De la Vega was very impressive in June. A true openside that Argentina haven't had since Phelan himself, I think he will start. Given that Vallejo is rather average and tha Farias isn't really a lock, I think Carizza will start next to Albacete.

In the backs there is more room for rotation, as there are many polyfunctional players of similar level. Probably Hernández is the only one (in Phelan's mind) to have a spot rather safe if uninjured, and I'd think Santiago Fernández is quite certain to start most games. On form, Phelan would have to be out of his mind to leave Imhoff and Amorosino out, but it would be a type of decision that's not unheard of coming from him.

Carballo is Rafael Carballo. Centre or winger for Bordeaux-Begles. I don´t know why he was selected to be honest. It looks strange now that all of Belisario Agulla, Manuel Montero and Joaquín Tuculet were good in June. Carballo can play 13 but Bosch is certainly better while Rodríguez has been leaked as being the new man for the position and Horacio Agulla is certain to start and should indeed be 13 given his form, size and experience.

Orlandi is fifth choice, certainly. He is ok but, honestly Francisco Goméz Kodela is better. I think Orlandi will only play if injuries rule others out. He is not a good enough scrumager. Galindo was to start in the World Cup in the 6 shirt only to get injured in training. A serious injury in his bicep ruled him out of the tournament around 10 days before it started.

I think Juan Cruz Guillemaín (the lock you mention) will play in November. Vallejos is not flashy at all but is a good jumper and defender. He fits what Phelan wants from a fourth choice player. I am glad it is him over Esteban Lozada.

I agree fully with your assesment of the starting forwards. If Phelan has been paying attention to Graham Henry then Amorosino and Imhoff will be the 15 and 11. Indeed, if he has been looking to actually change how Argentina play so they can score more tries and in a punishing way that the SANZAR sides are famous for then he will go for Hernández-Fernández-Agulla at 10-13 with Camacho or Bustos Moyano at 14 joining Amorosino and Imhoff in the backthree. Fernández for 12 is ideal as he is a much better passer than Rodríguez or Bosch. Above all, Argentina have good wingers now, something unimaginable 6 years ago, so making use of them is vital. Previously coahces went for centres who could play wing like Aramburu and Senillosa at France 2007 for instance.

[luchito]

The 15 is already for Amorosino but the rest of the backthree will rotate. Knowing Phelan, Agulla and Camacho will start in the first match. I think Camacho will play the away matches because of his defensive skills, but he will be replaced by Imhoff at home. If Hernandez's or Rodriguez's goal kicking is poor (as usual) in the first matches, Bustos Moyano will have a chance probably.

De La Vega has no chance of starting Melhor. He responded well in the June tests but he only played a couple of matches in the past years because of injuries. Farias, Galindo or Senatore will fight for the 6. He is a great project though and will have some minutes in the tournament.

[Melhor Time]

The 15 is already for Amorosino but the rest of the backthree will rotate. Knowing Phelan, Agulla and Camacho will start in the first match. I think Camacho will play the away matches because of his defensive skills, but he will be replaced by Imhoff at home. If Hernandez's or Rodriguez's goal kicking is poor (as usual) in the first matches, Bustos Moyano will have a chance probably.

De La Vega has no chance of starting Melhor. He responded well in the June tests but he only played a couple of matches in the past years because of injuries. Farias, Galindo or Senatore will fight for the 6. He is a great project though and will have some minutes in the tournament.

If Phelan does select similar to that of the 2008-2011 period then I agree with you. However, I feel there is plenty of reason to believe otherwise:

1. The game plan of Los Pampas XV in the Vodacom Cup
2. New Game plan evident vs Italy and France and at times in RWC 2011
3. The UAR Contracting Graham Henry
4. The strengths of the squad
5. The overall make-up of the squad

While Phelan didn´t get good results in his first four years in charge he did get the team to play differently, albeit not always and not enough. For instance, vs Wales in 2011 the team looked really good for 30 minutes. vs England and Scotland at the RWC, when losing, Argentina played much better. More width and vastly superior attacking an linking. The tries were not numerous enough and with more time together and things will be different. Los Pampas XV have been playing a brand of rugby that looks closer to Australia than it does Argentina from a stereotypical standpoint. The team has scored lots of tries but also recieved lots. Players have been adapting and the success was evident in June this year by just watching the scrumhalves - Landajo and Cubelli. Both players were very good despite the scrum being demolished. I cannot imagine Vergallo being able to get a team going while being bullied yet Argentina did score more tries than normal, and this resulted in two wins from three.

The decision to get expert advise from Graham Henry seems to be very evident. Just the way Phelan is now rotating players is something unheard of previously. He certainly, appears, to have contributed to the selections given the clear change in how Argentina are playing and this is likely to continue even when he has gone. Looking at the squad it is one with strenghts in many areas - frontrow, secondrow and, interestingly, the backthree. The team is, overall solid everywhere. There are top players from elite European clubs everywhere. The concerns being Vergallo at scrumhalf and a player for the 6 shirt. Galindo has not been as good as he was 12 months ago and is not going to start against Australia or New Zealand as he does not fit the game style. vs South Africa he could start but I do feel that De La Vega will be used a lot. He is young but has proven himself already. The Pensacola training will answer all the questions. Last year Ledesma at 38 was better than many of the players in their mid 20´s in the fitness competitions.

What I have been seeing is Martín Rodríguez is no longer a fullback. He is in line to play 13. Phelan was too scared to start González Amorosino at fullback because of his defence. Argentina will get around this easily by having Hernández drop back, esp in facing South Africa. Another interesting point is that it has been pointed out elsewhere that the Pampas scrumhalves are now the top two Argentine players in the position.

Saludos!