Super Rugby: Crusaders - Force in Christchurch (14/07/2012)

[TRF_Darwin]

Wtf...

Wtf?

[Invictus]

What the f... Was a very dodgy call.

[TRF_Darwin]

I hope all those who think Adam Whitelock isn't up to Super Rugby standard are watching this match - he has been very good thus far!

[big ginger 8]

Adam Whitelock try.

[TRF_Darwin]

Adam Whitelock try.

Called back for offside...

Force score again - weak tackle by Ben Franks...

[big ginger 8]

Watching with the sound off was just about to edit it.

[TRF_Darwin]

Crusaders have been very average since McCaw, Carter, and Ellis have gone off.

EDIT: Now Guildford blows a try with a forward pass.... then knocks it on Shocking pass by Maitland now... the Crusaders keep making some pretty basic mistakes in the second half....

[Sam91]

Congrats on a great super rugby career sharpie you are an absolute legend

[TRF_nickdnz]

I hope all those who think Adam Whitelock isn't up to Super Rugby standard are watching this match - he has been very good thus far!

I have been watching and no, I still think he's pants, this match not withstanding. I'd say he looked as dangerous as Guildford though...for what that's worth.

[TRF_Darwin]

I have been watching and no, I still think he's pants, this match not withstanding. I'd say he looked as dangerous as Guildford though...for what that's worth.

You must have been watching a very different match to me. His distribution was very good, he made a couple of good runs with ball in hand, made a very good kick that almost lead to a try, and his defense was outstanding - on several occasions he saved the Crusaders by making a spot-tackle when the Force had a clear overlap. He may well have earned himself a spot in the starting XV come playoff time (whether at centre or on the wing...).

[TRF_nickdnz]

You must have been watching a very different match to me. His distribution was very good, he made a couple of good runs with ball in hand, made a very good kick that almost lead to a try, and his defense was outstanding - on several occasions he saved the Crusaders by making a spot-tackle when the Force had a clear overlap. He may well have earned himself a spot in the starting XV come playoff time (whether at centre or on the wing...).

He also blew two tries, one for being off side and the other when he backed himself instead of passing and didn't make it to the try line (it was recycled for a later try but any other back would have scored it).

[TRF_Darwin]

He also blew two tries, one for being off side and the other when he backed himself instead of passing and didn't make it to the try line (it was recycled for a later try but any other back would have scored it).

You mean he blew a try that the Crusaders scored actually scored one pass later? I think you are grasping at straws if you think that is a 'blown try' Whitelock did the right thing by straightening the line - if he had simply passed out straight away to McCaw the Force defense would have kept sliding and Dagg would probably would have been taken out in the corner (or dropped the ball over the line again ). Ideally he would have straightened the line and then made a quick pass to McCaw, who would have been forced to make a very quick pass to Dagg to score, but taking the ball hard at the line, getting a very quick recycle (courtesy of McCaw), then scoring a simply try one pass later is a pretty good result!

It is pretty harsh to consider the off-side situation a 'blown try' too - he was 1/2 a metre in front of the kicker (very well picked up by the ref I must add) and chased through well, collected the ball and forced it over the line. It was not as though he 'blew' a certain try - the Crusaders certainly were not going to score if Whitelock wasn't there!

If you can honestly watch that game and think that Adam Whitelock is not good enough to be playing Super Rugby I don't think any number of words from me are going to change your mind though!


Anyways... I few other thoughts on the game:
The Crusaders looked very dangerous in the first half, but really lost their way after half-time once Carter, McCaw, and Ellis were subbed off in the second half. They can't afford that sort of drop-off again vs the Bulls.

I thought both Crusaders locks were very good, but the pick of the forwards for me was Matt Todd. Todd made a huge number of tackles, forced a couple of turnovers, and made several little breaks (and off-loads) with ball in hand. McCaw was pretty good too - he has put on a lot of beef in recent years, and can be a very powerful runner with ball in hand at times.

Ellis had a very mixed game. He made 2-3 great breaks around the fringes, but he made a couple of basic handling errors, and made a few poor decision with ball in hand (the inside pass to a covered Guildford when he had an easy run himself to the try line...). Carter was good while he was on, as were Crotty and Whitelock.

The outside backs all had mixed (at best) games. Guildford actually did a number of things really well - he made some good yards in contact (something he is often criticized for), linked well at times, made a great skip pass for Dagg's try, had a big work-rate, and even managed a bit hit on defense. However he made a number of errors - a forward pass (that cost a try), a knock-on, and he was unable to finish his (admittedly difficult) chances. I think he will need to be very impressive for the rest of the Crusaders season if he wants to be in the next AB's squad - he certainly wouldn't make it at this stage if I was picking the squad (I'd go Gear, Savea, Jane, Dagg, and Smith as my back three players). Maitland had a couple of good runs with ball in hand (one where he scored his try), but he looked a bit lost at times on defense (a poor defensive mistake let Godwin in for his try), and did slip off a number of tackles. Dagg was pretty underwhelming too - he took one high ball well, and though he had plenty of chances wasn't really able to break the Force defense (and dropped the ball over the try-line...).

[donmcdazzle]

I hope all those who think Adam Whitelock isn't up to Super Rugby standard are watching this match - he has been very good thus far!

I was going to say I hope those defending him were watching as he was rubbish.. He offers zero on attack, sure he made good running meters but who wouldn't have with the ball he was getting, all he had to do was catch and run to clock them up. Maitland on the other hand was threatening, the try he scored Whitelock couldn't even dream of scoring.

Also, Luke Whitelock has failed to impress me at all this season. He was very pedestrian when he came on.

I don't have anything against the whitelock family by the way despite how these comments may seem!

[Shovenose]

So in short without McCaw and Carter they look rubbish.

[TRF_Darwin]

So in short without McCaw and Carter they look rubbish.

In this game yes, they looked rubbish for half a match without McCaw, Carter, Sam Whitelock, Owen Franks, and Read on the field (5 starting All Blacks...). Likewise the Stormers looked rubbish for half a match versus the Rebels

I was going to say I hope those defending him were watching as he was rubbish.. He offers zero on attack, sure he made good running meters but who wouldn't have with the ball he was getting, all he had to do was catch and run to clock them up.

I thought he was far from "rubbish". He isn't a game-breaker ala Robbie Fruean, but he was handy on attack (his distribution was good this match, and he made a very good kick at one stage), and rock solid on defense. He didn't make any errors that I can recall (apart from conceding a couple of close off-side penalties). In general he just made the right decisions at the right time, the only real downside to his game is his lack of top-end pace... hmmm that sounds suspiciously like another 13 that many describe at the best centre in the world I'm not trying to say he is remotely in Smiths' class, just they possess a number of similar attributes that are often under-appreciated by the general public (massive work-rate, great at organizing defense, strong individual defender, low error rate etc).

Maitland on the other hand was threatening, the try he scored Whitelock couldn't even dream of scoring.

I agree. Maitland also let through a try that Whitelock wouldn't dream of letting through. After watching this match I can certainly understand why Whitelock has been preferred over Maitland on the wing in recent weeks - Maitland looked lost defensively on a number of occasions. While personally I wouldn't start Whitelock over Maitland on the wing against the Bulls, I get the feeling that Blackadder is a very conservative coach so I'm predicting he will. Whoever he starts is going to have hard task marking Basson!

Also, Luke Whitelock has failed to impress me at all this season. He was very pedestrian when he came on.

I don't have anything against the whitelock family by the way despite how these comments may seem!

Like you, I have been very underwhelmed by Luke Whitelock thus far. He is touted by many as the best of the Whitelock brothers, but he hasn't really done anything to me that suggests he is a future All Black. To me it looks more likely that he end up being a Super Rugby journeyman like George and Adam, rather than an AB like Sam (though that still would make a far better rugby player than 99.9% of the population!). He is still young though, so has plenty of time to deliver on that potential that many of his coaches have raved about....

[donmcdazzle]

In this game yes, they looked rubbish for half a match without McCaw, Carter, Sam Whitelock, Owen Franks, and Read on the field (5 starting All Blacks...). Likewise the Stormers looked rubbish for half a match versus the Rebels



I thought he was far from "rubbish". He isn't a game-breaker ala Robbie Fruean, but he was handy on attack (his distribution was good this match, and he made a very good kick at one stage), and rock solid on defense. He didn't make any errors that I can recall (apart from conceding a couple of close off-side penalties). In general he just made the right decisions at the right time, the only real downside to his game is his lack of top-end pace... hmmm that sounds suspiciously like another 13 that many describe at the best centre in the world I'm not trying to say he is remotely in Smiths' class, just they possess a number of similar attributes that are often under-appreciated by the general public (massive work-rate, great at organizing defense, strong individual defender, low error rate etc).



I agree. Maitland also let through a try that Whitelock wouldn't dream of letting through. After watching this match I can certainly understand why Whitelock has been preferred over Maitland on the wing in recent weeks - Maitland looked lost defensively on a number of occasions. While personally I wouldn't start Whitelock over Maitland on the wing against the Bulls, I get the feeling that Blackadder is a very conservative coach so I'm predicting he will. Whoever he starts is going to have hard task marking Basson!



Like you, I have been very underwhelmed by Luke Whitelock thus far. He is touted by many as the best of the Whitelock brothers, but he hasn't really done anything to me that suggests he is a future All Black. To me it looks more likely that he end up being a Super Rugby journeyman like George and Adam, rather than an AB like Sam (though that still would make a far better rugby player than 99.9% of the population!). He is still young though, so has plenty of time to deliver on that potential that many of his coaches have raved about....

Rubbish was a bit strong I agree. He is to a degree a poor man's Conrad Smith, just maybe a rougher version in that he isn't quite as sharp in terms of making things happen for his outsides or running creative lines to make any line breaks. Defensively yeah you are right he is better than Maitland, he is a real strong defender. I just like having guys like Maitland on the end of the chain rather than a defensive choice. I can see that he adds some solidity in the midfield, but yeah offensively I'm not at all convinced. When he tucked and ran he really butchered that try (even though they did score the next phase), he should have found a way to get someone over there was an overlap on for sure.

I feel the same regarding Luke, I've heard a lot of talk about him but haven't seen anything to justify the hype. At least with Brad Shields you can see flashes of what the coaches want to try and harness.

[TRF_Darwin]

Rubbish was a bit strong I agree. He is to a degree a poor man's Conrad Smith, just maybe a rougher version in that he isn't quite as sharp in terms of making things happen for his outsides or running creative lines to make any line breaks. Defensively yeah you are right he is better than Maitland, he is a real strong defender. I just like having guys like Maitland on the end of the chain rather than a defensive choice. I can see that he adds some solidity in the midfield, but yeah offensively I'm not at all convinced. When he tucked and ran he really butchered that try (even though they did score the next phase), he should have found a way to get someone over there was an overlap on for sure.

I can agree with nearly all of that. I think one of Adam Whitelock's major problems is that despite having played 40 matches over number of season for the Crusaders he has only actually had 7 starts in his the midfield (compared to 16 starts on the wing). Therefore he is often judged as a wing (when it is clearly not his best position), and (more importantly) he really hasn't been given a chance to develop his skills as a midfield back at Super Rugby level. I certainly wouldn't describe his distribution skills as great, but I think they would certainly be more refined if he was given more time in the midfield. I think he is a pretty good bench option at this level, as his ability to seamlessly slot into a number of backline positions is very valuable (as rearranging your backline often causes a lot of disruption).

I feel the same regarding Luke, I've heard a lot of talk about him but haven't seen anything to justify the hype. At least with Brad Shields you can see flashes of what the coaches want to try and harness.

I was actually going to mention Shields myself. As you say you can clearly see why the coaches are interested in him, but it is far more difficult to see what the coaches see in Luke Whitelock - to me he is like a less reliable version of George Whitelock at this stage of his career!

[Keithmurdoch]

At the same age George looked a great prospect, to be fair - and luke dominated in the U20s, I think that's reason enough to give him some latitude. Lets judge him at a S15 level over the next 2 years rather than right now eh?! He'll only get bigger.

[Keithmurdoch]

He also blew two tries, one for being off side and the other when he backed himself instead of passing and didn't make it to the try line (it was recycled for a later try but any other back would have scored it).

Yeah when you do that you risk being compared to rob horne, which nobody likes.

[TRF_Darwin]

At the same age George looked a great prospect, to be fair - and luke dominated in the U20s, I think that's reason enough to give him some latitude. Lets judge him at a S15 level over the next 2 years rather than right now eh?! He'll only get bigger.

No-one is saying that Luke Whitelock isn't a good young player, I'm just suggesting that thus far he has been no-where near as good as he has been hyped up to be. He is often described as 'the best of the Whitelocks', and the AB's selectors identified him as a 'special project' by bringing him into their training squad earlier in the year. The problem is that he hasn't shown anything to suggest he is good enough for Super Rugby yet, let alone being a future All Black! I disagree that he dominated in the U20s too - I was very underwhelmed with him at both Under 20's tournaments he attended. He was clearly outshone by Cane and Shields last season, and in 2010 both Rory Grice and Sean Polwart (both of whom were in wider training squads this season) looked much better players. I have no doubt he will improve over time, but at this stage I can't quite see what exactly the AB's selectors see in him....