Wallabies training squad for Rugby Championship

[madflyhalf]

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,2...947733,00.html

After an initial 28-man squad without players from the Reds who were approaching SuperRugby playoff, Robbie Deans announced the group of 36 players who will training together until the final 30-man squad announcement.

Backs: Kurtley Beale (Melbourne Rebels), Adam Ashley-Cooper (NSW Waratahs), Drew Mitchell (NSW Waratahs), Digby Ioane (Queensland Reds), Cooper Vuna (Melbourne Rebels), Nick Cummins (Western Force), Dominic Shipperley (Queensland Reds), Rob Horne (NSW Waratahs), Anthony Fainga’a (Queensland Reds), Ben Tapuai (Queensland Reds), Pat McCabe (Brumbies), Mike Harris (Queensland Reds), Quade Cooper (Queensland Reds), Berrick Barnes (NSW Waratahs), Will Genia (Queensland Reds), Nick Phipps (Melbourne Rebels), Nic White (Brumbies)

Forwards: Radike Samo (Queensland Reds), Scott Higginbotham (Queensland Reds), Jake Schatz (Queensland Reds), David Pocock (Western Force), Michael Hooper (Brumbies), Liam Gill (Queensland Reds), Dave Dennis (NSW Waratahs), Kane Douglas (NSW Waratahs), Nathan Sharpe (Western Force), Rob Simmons (Queensland Reds), Cadeyrn Neville (Melbourne Rebels), Sitaleki Timani (NSW Waratahs), James Slipper (Queensland Reds), Sekope Kepu (NSW Waratahs), Benn Robinson (NSW Waratahs), Ben Alexander (Brumbies), James Hanson (Queensland Reds), Stephen Moore (Brumbies), Tatafu Polota-Nau (NSW Waratahs).


I don't know if this is the exact order Deans & co. named the players, they are sorted by position and you can argue:

- Beale is first option at 15, no more first option at 10
- Ashley-Cooper in plans for Beale cover or wing spot
- Samo, Higginbotham and Schatz are there for the 8 spot, even though they're from the same team, 1 is the starting 8, one is the starting 6, and Samo has recently recalled to bench duty for both backrow and lock roles.
- Seems Dennis is for the 6 spot (which is good IMO, he is very solid and has a tight game more than any other 6 here, maybe Schatz, but he's a bit more unexperienced)


It is clear the Australia doesn't have the same depth of NZ in the whole squad, and SA in the forward pack.

This is, unfortunately, a fact.

People who wants to see Pyle, or Mowen or some other names there, should accept that, maybe (maybe!) they are not ready even for training, after 3 weeks in june and 2 weeks now maybe the coaching staff has a clear idea.

Choices in the tight five are limited, with the injuries of Horwill, Vickerman, Saia Fainga'a, Elsom departing, few players left to pick.
I don't question about that, maybe about the manageing of some players during june tests, that can have built some experience during them.
Wallabies will miss Vickerman so much... again!

I have big, big concerns about the midfield.

Since 2010 season Australia doesn't have a solid, established and creative centre pairing: that year AAC was on fire and well assisted by both Giteau and Barnes, the "Pat McCabe Experiment" though cementified the channel, doesn't offer much more than a few passes or offloads in terms of ball manageing.
But he's solid both in attack and defence, he's growing and picking up confidence, and the fact that injury problems has been scattered to all positions, maybe Deans doens't want to take some risks.
With McCabe at 12, they beat NZ, South Africa Twice and they went through the RWC QF.

It works. Not greatly, but it works.

Good to see Mitch Inman going home, IMO he's a waste of kg, he uses his bodyweight awfully, I really would have liked to see Andrew Smith there.
He played better than Horne, Inman and A Fainga'a for the entire season.

I just can't understand this.


Among these players I'd pick:

- Alexander, Robinson, Kepu, Slipper
- Moore, TPN, Hanson
- Sharpe, Simmons, Neville, Samo
- Dennis, Schatz
- Pocock, Gill
- Higginbotham, Hooper
- Genia, White, Phipps
- Barnes, Cooper
- McCabe, Ashley-Cooper, Horne, A Fainga'a
- Ioane, Mitchell, Beale, Shipperley


But surely Timani will be included, and who knows anything about JOC? Still struggling with hamstring injury? Any update?

[TRF_Olyy]

In my opinion, if Cooper is out, it should be along the lines of:
10: Beale
12: Barnes
15: AAC

Beale has shown himself to be a quality 10 at Rebels, Barnes is as good at 12 as 10 (imo 12 is his best though), and 15 is AACs best position.

[TNT88]

I'm picking McCabe for a big season. Hopefully he cements his place on the world stage.

Definitely lacking depth in the forward pack, but they are probably used to that now and can try to work around it...

The #10 battle will be interesting. Barnes has done the role justice, but is he the man to beat NZ?

[big ginger 8]

I really do think Pyle should at least be in the squad.

[welshglory]

In my opinion, if Cooper is out, it should be along the lines of:
10: Beale
12: Barnes
15: AAC

Beale has shown himself to be a quality 10 at Rebels, Barnes is as good at 12 as 10 (imo 12 is his best though), and 15 is AACs best position.

I sort of get your point but Beale hasn't played 10 for the Wallabies, while Barnes has and quite well too in the Welsh tests in particular. I think they should stick with Barnes at 10 and keep Beale at 15 for some familiarity.

Beale as a future option at 10 should definitely be looked at, maybe the november tour, but in the rugby championship against the Allblacks its too risky imo.

I don't think they should O'Connor as a 10 though, anywhere else in the backline bar scrumhalf he'll shine.

[welshglory]

I really do think Pyle should at least be in the squad.

He was included in the tour for the summer wasn't he? I doubt he would make the final cut for the 4 nations

I think they will probably bring him on the November tour once Sharpe has retired.

[big ginger 8]

He was included in the tour for the summer wasn't he? I doubt he would make the final cut for the 4 nations

I think they will probably bring him on the November tour once Sharpe has retired.

He was yeah.

[TRF_Draggs]

In my opinion, if Cooper is out, it should be along the lines of:
10: Beale
12: Barnes
15: AAC

Beale has shown himself to be a quality 10 at Rebels, Barnes is as good at 12 as 10 (imo 12 is his best though), and 15 is AACs best position.

10. Barnes
12. O'Connor
13. AAC (Great centre when given time, see 2010)
15. Beale

Beale to outside half can wait until November, Barnes deserves his spot. O'Connor-AAC in midfield could be outstanding on attack, but defence would worry me.Q

[TRF_Olyy]

Is JOC back/fit?
I thought he was missing for X amount of it. Would definitely have him involved if fit, though.

[welshglory]

Not sure when he's back but he had a lacerated liver, so i imagine he will be out for a long time!

[madflyhalf]

No he recovered from that but he's now struggling with a serious hamstring injury!

[TRF_Draggs]

No he recovered from that but he's now struggling with a serious hamstring injury!

Didn't know that.
A Horne-AAC midfield wouldn't be particularly inventive, but could get the job done.

[big ginger 8]

Horne should not start for the Wallabies. I used to be a big fan but he never passes and when you have wings like Aus' you give them the ball.

[ZeFrenchy]

Didn't know that.
A Horne-AAC midfield wouldn't be particularly inventive, but could get the job done.

Didn't really do the job for the Waratahs...

[madflyhalf]

IMO when the Tah's begin to field AAC and Horne, they slightly improved (well... not a hard task... ), but it seemed it worked quite well.
But I don't think Deans would try it.

Maybe TNT88 is right and this could be the year of McCabe cementing his spot, but I'm afraid it would limit a while the beautiful rugby played by the Wallabies in 2009-2010.


I'd really like to see Liam Gill in Wallaby jersey. I've said it for all this season and maybe the last stages of 2011, he's amazing.
Slightly different from Pocock: he carries less, but he has one of the most beautiful and effective support play I've ever seen, probably the best in Australia for a while.

And Jake Schatz too, he looks as a good prospect for both no. 6 and 8 jersey, the Wallabies are still desperate to fill the void left Kefu and Finegan.


Basically, this team is freaking good, not so deep in choice, but they have 20-22 top-quality players, they "just" need to be aggressive, strong and tight in the first 8 man.
Now they have 4-6 tight runners, always the same, and 2 are injuried.

The game they are physical and aggressive, even the mighty All Blacks shake and can lose.

I remember the test against SA, in 2011 in Durban, in the first 30 min they looked possessed... mad... I've never seen a team putting 5 or 6 dominant tackles in the first few minutes, on the main ball-carrier of the opponent team, in their own home.

After the first 30' I was sure the Wallabies would have take that.

If they want to beat SA again this year and the ABs at home, they need to be like that, otherwise, they have no real chance.

[TRF_Darwin]

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,2...947733,00.html

After an initial 28-man squad without players from the Reds who were approaching SuperRugby playoff, Robbie Deans announced the group of 36 players who will training together until the final 30-man squad announcement.

Backs: Kurtley Beale (Melbourne Rebels), Adam Ashley-Cooper (NSW Waratahs), Drew Mitchell (NSW Waratahs), Digby Ioane (Queensland Reds), Cooper Vuna (Melbourne Rebels), Nick Cummins (Western Force), Dominic Shipperley (Queensland Reds), Rob Horne (NSW Waratahs), Anthony Fainga’a (Queensland Reds), Ben Tapuai (Queensland Reds), Pat McCabe (Brumbies), Mike Harris (Queensland Reds), Quade Cooper (Queensland Reds), Berrick Barnes (NSW Waratahs), Will Genia (Queensland Reds), Nick Phipps (Melbourne Rebels), Nic White (Brumbies)

Forwards: Radike Samo (Queensland Reds), Scott Higginbotham (Queensland Reds), Jake Schatz (Queensland Reds), David Pocock (Western Force), Michael Hooper (Brumbies), Liam Gill (Queensland Reds), Dave Dennis (NSW Waratahs), Kane Douglas (NSW Waratahs), Nathan Sharpe (Western Force), Rob Simmons (Queensland Reds), Cadeyrn Neville (Melbourne Rebels), Sitaleki Timani (NSW Waratahs), James Slipper (Queensland Reds), Sekope Kepu (NSW Waratahs), Benn Robinson (NSW Waratahs), Ben Alexander (Brumbies), James Hanson (Queensland Reds), Stephen Moore (Brumbies), Tatafu Polota-Nau (NSW Waratahs).


I don't know if this is the exact order Deans & co. named the players, they are sorted by position and you can argue:

- Beale is first option at 15, no more first option at 10
- Ashley-Cooper in plans for Beale cover or wing spot
- Samo, Higginbotham and Schatz are there for the 8 spot, even though they're from the same team, 1 is the starting 8, one is the starting 6, and Samo has recently recalled to bench duty for both backrow and lock roles.
- Seems Dennis is for the 6 spot (which is good IMO, he is very solid and has a tight game more than any other 6 here, maybe Schatz, but he's a bit more unexperienced)


It is clear the Australia doesn't have the same depth of NZ in the whole squad, and SA in the forward pack.

This is, unfortunately, a fact.

People who wants to see Pyle, or Mowen or some other names there, should accept that, maybe (maybe!) they are not ready even for training, after 3 weeks in june and 2 weeks now maybe the coaching staff has a clear idea.

Choices in the tight five are limited, with the injuries of Horwill, Vickerman, Saia Fainga'a, Elsom departing, few players left to pick.
I don't question about that, maybe about the manageing of some players during june tests, that can have built some experience during them.
Wallabies will miss Vickerman so much... again!

I have big, big concerns about the midfield.

Since 2010 season Australia doesn't have a solid, established and creative centre pairing: that year AAC was on fire and well assisted by both Giteau and Barnes, the "Pat McCabe Experiment" though cementified the channel, doesn't offer much more than a few passes or offloads in terms of ball manageing.
But he's solid both in attack and defence, he's growing and picking up confidence, and the fact that injury problems has been scattered to all positions, maybe Deans doens't want to take some risks.
With McCabe at 12, they beat NZ, South Africa Twice and they went through the RWC QF.

It works. Not greatly, but it works.

Good to see Mitch Inman going home, IMO he's a waste of kg, he uses his bodyweight awfully, I really would have liked to see Andrew Smith there.
He played better than Horne, Inman and A Fainga'a for the entire season.

I just can't understand this.


Among these players I'd pick:

- Alexander, Robinson, Kepu, Slipper
- Moore, TPN, Hanson
- Sharpe, Simmons, Neville, Samo
- Dennis, Schatz
- Pocock, Gill
- Higginbotham, Hooper
- Genia, White, Phipps
- Barnes, Cooper
- McCabe, Ashley-Cooper, Horne, A Fainga'a
- Ioane, Mitchell, Beale, Shipperley


But surely Timani will be included, and who knows anything about JOC? Still struggling with hamstring injury? Any update?

Very good analysis there! I think it is a largely predictable squad, but there are a few surprises.

I'm slightly surprised to see Hanson over Faingaa as third hooker - is Faingaa injured? The prop and lock selections are are pretty predictable. Good to see Gill and Schatz picked, as both have been in great form for the Reds over the later half of the season - I would pick both in the final Wallabies squad if I was a selector. I'm not quite sure whether I would have included Samo though, as he has been very disappointing this season, sometimes failing to even make the Reds 22. With Palu out injured I suppose they are a bit shot on 8's, but I would have though between Higginbotham, Schatz, and Mowen (who I would have included in Samo's place) they would have had plenty of options.

O'Connor's continued absense is a massive blow for Australia - I haven't heard any news on him recently. I'm expecting McCabe will again be starting at 12 throughout the 4Nations, which is good (from Australia's perspective) as I'm quite a big fan of his. Though he is far from the most creative 12 in world rugby, the fact he was able to completely neutralize the AB's midfield last season (which is usually one of our major strengths), was a major reason for the Wallabies success in the 3Nations. I'm slightly surprised to see Lachie Turner miss out on a spot, as I think he is a very solid test player. He may lack Vuna's explosiveness, but at least he is able to tackle!

I really do think Pyle should at least be in the squad.

I agree - I would have had him in an extended squad like this, though I think he will struggle to find a place in the Wallabies until Sharpe finally retires...

[ZeFrenchy]

IMO, the Wobs need to stop picking Ben Alexander. He just can't match any international scrum, at any side, LH or TH. They need Palmer there.
I understand that if you're picking four props, it's ideal to have two that can play both sides... but this "Alexander can play tighthead" myth has got to stop. Slipper and Kepu are both looseheads that are played at 3 only because they happen to be australian, so I see no problem in taking Palmer, the only real TH prop in Australia (bar Ma'afu, but I don't think they Wallabies have reached that point).

[TRF_Darwin]

IMO, the Wobs need to stop picking Ben Alexander. He just can't match any international scrum, at any side, LH or TH. They need Palmer there.
I understand that if you're picking four props, it's ideal to have two that can play both sides... but this "Alexander can play tighthead" myth has got to stop. Slipper and Kepu are both looseheads that are played at 3 only because they happen to be australian, so I see no problem in taking Palmer, the only real TH prop in Australia (bar Ma'afu, but I don't think they Wallabies have reached that point).

I definitely agree with this - I didn't actually notice Palmer's omission. I don't think Alexander is that bad on the LH side (though I haven't watched him that closely this season). I would probably opt for him over Slipper (more for his experience than anything else...), but neither are great props at the international level.


EDIT: Just seen Pat McCabe has been ruled for the next 4-6 weeks with stress fracture in his leg, meaning he will miss the AB's tests.

[TNT88]

Farrrk McCabe is goooone. Not a good start. Going to give someone else an opportunity though. (Harris, O'Connor, Barnes?, Horne...)

[welshglory]

IMO, the Wobs need to stop picking Ben Alexander. He just can't match any international scrum, at any side, LH or TH. They need Palmer there.
I understand that if you're picking four props, it's ideal to have two that can play both sides... but this "Alexander can play tighthead" myth has got to stop. Slipper and Kepu are both looseheads that are played at 3 only because they happen to be australian, so I see no problem in taking Palmer, the only real TH prop in Australia (bar Ma'afu, but I don't think they Wallabies have reached that point).

No.

Kepu is a natural tighthead. He scrummages much better at tighthead

[ZeFrenchy]

No.

Kepu is a natural tighthead. He scrummages much better at tighthead

Ok, but my point is still valid.

[welshglory]

How does your point still stand?
He's scrummaged at both loosehead and tighthead over the past 2/3 years and he has looked much better at tighthead. If you watch videos of him you will see that he looks much more comfortable. He's only 26 as well so he has plenty of time to improve.

[ZeFrenchy]

My point was that they should have taken Palmer instead of Alexander. All I need is for Kepu to be able to scrummage at loosehead. Saying "Kepu is a natural tighthead, therefore taking Alexander over Palmer is right" is an argumentum ad logicam fallacy.

[welshglory]

How about playing Robinson and Kepu together with Palmer on the bench.

I though Palmer was injured anyway...

[ZeFrenchy]

How about playing Robinson and Kepu together with Palmer on the bench.

I though Palmer was injured anyway...

Well, if Palmer is injured, then I'll just stfu.

I was precisely thinking of that same combination, but for that to be possible, you need Kepu to be able to step up at loosehead, in case Robinson gets injured, as Palmer is exclusively a THP.


edit: Palmer was indeed not considered due to injury.

[madflyhalf]

Palmer not considered, yes, but I still think there is some other weak link in the scrummaging chain between the Super Rugby front rows (even the Waratahs looked solid in the scrum this year) and the Wallabies. Maybe in the coaching staff, maybe in the locks combo...

But now, IMHO, Robinson is by far off form, after his injury he never reached back his peak as he played in 2010, mix this with the idea of Robbie Deans to use Alexander as tighthead replacement OR as loosehead keeping Kepu on the field...

I think the Wallabies' front row is terribly tied to the combination of the club: Tahs or Brumbies (or Brumbies&Slipper).
We have still to see how Alexander, Moore and Palmer (or Slipper for now) can perform at test level and I have the idea they can bring almost the same strenght seen at SR level!
If I remember well, we have never seen the combo Alexander Moore Slipper!

Vice-versa, the f-r formed by Robinson-TPN-Kepu is maybe more experienced, but they are quite off-form now, and surely it is an injury prone combo (especially TPN).

[ZeFrenchy]

I'd be wary about Slipper. He's a good player, but he's far from dominant at TH. He bested Castrogiovanni once playing at LH though... He has to be tried, but I think right now Kepu is perhaps the surest starter.

[TRF_Darwin]

Wallabies 30-man squad confirmed:
Ben Alexander, Adam Ashley-Cooper, Berrick Barnes, Kurtley Beale, Quade Cooper, Dave Dennis, Kane Douglas, Anthony Faingaa, Saia Faingaa, Will Genia, Liam Gill, Mike Harris, Scott Higginbotham, Michael Hooper, Rob Horne, Digby Ioane, Sekope Kepu, Drew Mitchell, Stephen Moore, Nick Phipps, David Pocock (capt), Tatafu Polota-Nau, Benn Robinson, Radike Samo, Jake Schatz, Nathan Sharpe, Rob Simmons, James Slipper, Sitaleki Timani, Nic White

So (if I read that correctly) Hanson, Neville, McCabe (injured), Tapuai, Shipperly, Cummins, Vuna all drop out from the initial training squad (and S Faingaa comes in).

Probably the most interesting aspect of the squad is the make-up, with 18 forwards (including 2 specialist 7's) and only 12 backs.

[Invictus]

I guess a lot of the backs can cover multiple positions, particularly Beale, Ashley-Cooper, Harris... O'Connor out for the whole series?

[InsaneAsylum]

Vuna did his shoulder on the weekend playing club rugby in melbourne. whether that affected his selection though, i'm not sure.

Neville's omission on the other hand is dissapointing, clearly Australia's best lock behind sharpe and horwill (inj.)