All Blacks squad for the Rugby Championship

[TRF_Darwin]

With the AB's squad for the Rugby Championship (hereafter referred to as the RC) set to be named tomorrow, I thought I would predict what that squad will look like. With a training squad named last weekend there shouldn't be too many surprises in the 28-man squad - the biggest question to me is the positional make-up of the squad. I would expect either a 16/12 (with 5 props) or a 15/13 split - I'm leaning towards the later at this stage.

Props: Woodcock, B Franks, Faumuina, O Franks
Crockett's lack of versatility will count against him again if only take 4 props. If they do decide to take 5 props (and only 2 10's), Crockett will be the 5th prop.

Hookers: Mealamu, Hore
No comment needed.

Locks: Romano, Retallick, Whitelock, Williams
Assuming Williams is fit for the RC (or some part of the RC) I expect he will be named, but Craig Clarke may well come into the squad to cover Romano and Williams who are not fully fit at this stage. This would be fully deserved for Clarke, though he himself isn't 100% fit at this stage....

Loose forwards: Thomson, Vito, Cane, McCaw, Read
Probably the most debatable area here. Vito, Cane, McCaw, and Read are all certainties, but the 5th choice between Thomson and Messam is very tight. I think Messam has clearly had the better Super Rugby season, but the question remains: can he transfer this superb form onto the international stage? He certainly showed he is capable of doing this in the third Ireland test, but whether he is capable of this when the team is going backwards has yet to be seen. Thomson himself has had a very good Super Rugby season, and offers some attributes that the AB's selectors find very intriguing (in particular his aerial skills). He hasn't stood out at international level, but has generally acquitted himself well, and was one of best players in a tight battle in the 2nd Irish test. I'm picking they will stick with Thomson, but wouldn't be too surprised if they went for Messam.

Halfbacks: A Smith, Weepu
I wouldn't pick Weepu personally (I'd have Ellis, Kerr-Barlow, or Perenara - if he was fit - over him), but I think the AB's selectors will stick with him. However if Kerr-Barlow has a storming game in the final he could push his way past Weepu.

First-fives: Carter, Cruden, Barrett
I'm not sure whether there will be room for Barrett in a 28-man squad, but I've included him instead of a 5th prop, as it brings extra flexibility to the backline.

Midfield: Nonu, Bill-Williams, Ellison
Not a big fan for bringing SBW back for just two games, but it looks like it will happen. I don't expect Conrad Smith will be named, but he will come into the squad later when he returns to full fitness.

Wings/Fullbacks: Savea, Gear, Jane, B Smith, Dagg
I can't see any room for Guildford in this squad - his ability to play on the right wing is less valuable with Jane returning.

[TRF_Draggs]

I find it hard to disagree with any of your selections.
I do think Barrett will drop out for another prop, but Crockett is indeed limited.

Messam has been in fantastic form, and for me it is between him and Thomson for the fifth back row position.

Ben Smith! Wonderful to see, a very talented outside back. How will the back three look? Dagg shifted to the wing for Smith? I would go with [11, 14, 15]: Gear, Dagg, Smith. Jane off the bench. Savea is limited to the wing, whilst Jane, Dagg, Smith are all utility-type back three players.

[TRF_Darwin]

I find it hard to disagree with any of your selections.
I do think Barrett will drop out for another prop, but Crockett is indeed limited.

Messam has been in fantastic form, and for me it is between him and Thomson for the fifth back row position.

Ben Smith! Wonderful to see, a very talented outside back. How will the back three look? Dagg shifted to the wing for Smith? I would go with [11, 14, 15]: Gear, Dagg, Smith. Jane off the bench. Savea is limited to the wing, whilst Jane, Dagg, Smith are all utility-type back three players.

Personally I would go 11. Gear/Savea, 14. Jane, 15. Smith - though I have been saying I would start Smith at fullback for the last 2-3 years! I don't think Dagg's form warrants inclusion, but I'm pretty sure he will start at fullback based on previous achievements, with 11. Gear/Savea, 14. Jane (and Smith on the bench).

[TRF_nickdnz]

With the AB's squad for the Rugby Championship (hereafter referred to as the RC) set to be named tomorrow, I thought I would predict what that squad will look like. With a training squad named last weekend there shouldn't be too many surprises in the 28-man squad - the biggest question to me is the positional make-up of the squad. I would expect either a 16/12 (with 5 props) or a 15/13 split - I'm leaning towards the later at this stage.

Props: Woodcock, B Franks, Faumuina, O Franks
Crockett's lack of versatility will count against him again if only take 4 props. If they do decide to take 5 props (and only 2 10's), Crockett will be the 5th prop.

Hookers: Mealamu, Hore
No comment needed.

Locks: Romano, Retallick, Whitelock, Williams
Assuming Williams is fit for the RC (or some part of the RC) I expect he will be named, but Craig Clarke may well come into the squad to cover Romano and Williams who are not fully fit at this stage. This would be fully deserved for Clarke, though he himself isn't 100% fit at this stage....

Loose forwards: Thomson, Vito, Cane, McCaw, Read
Probably the most debatable area here. Vito, Cane, McCaw, and Read are all certainties, but the 5th choice between Thomson and Messam is very tight. I think Messam has clearly had the better Super Rugby season, but the question remains: can he transfer this superb form onto the international stage? He certainly showed he is capable of doing this in the third Ireland test, but whether he is capable of this when the team is going backwards has yet to be seen. Thomson himself has had a very good Super Rugby season, and offers some attributes that the AB's selectors find very intriguing (in particular his aerial skills). He hasn't stood out at international level, but has generally acquitted himself well, and was one of best players in a tight battle in the 2nd Irish test. I'm picking they will stick with Thomson, but wouldn't be too surprised if they went for Messam.

Halfbacks: A Smith, Weepu
I wouldn't pick Weepu personally (I'd have Ellis, Kerr-Barlow, or Perenara - if he was fit - over him), but I think the AB's selectors will stick with him. However if Kerr-Barlow has a storming game in the final he could push his way past Weepu.

First-fives: Carter, Cruden, Barrett
I'm not sure whether there will be room for Barrett in a 28-man squad, but I've included him instead of a 5th prop, as it brings extra flexibility to the backline.

Midfield: Nonu, Bill-Williams, Ellison
Not a big fan for bringing SBW back for just two games, but it looks like it will happen. I don't expect Conrad Smith will be named, but he will come into the squad later when he returns to full fitness.

Wings/Fullbacks: Savea, Gear, Jane, B Smith, Dagg
I can't see any room for Guildford in this squad - his ability to play on the right wing is less valuable with Jane returning.

I'd be a very, very happy man to see this. It's almost the squad I'd pick except I'd take Messam over Thomson any day of the week and as you pointed out, Kerr-Barlow over Weepu (although I'd probably keep him in there over Ellis, who looked shocking against the Chiefs despite a good season). Also would like to see Crotty/Bateman in there over SBW, but I guess if we've already payed him to play then we may as well use him considering we're tight on centres. I'd also like to see those three 1st fives, almost permantently in the squads till the next RWC. The only other changes is I'd take Eaton, Bekhuis or even Donnelly over Williams. I think Crockett's time will come where the squad sizes increase to allow an extra prop (although he'll be getting on by then).

[Keithmurdoch]

Whilst I agree with your props, I see you've used Hanson's 'logic' selecting Famuina over Crockett for versitility - have you ever seen Faumuina at loosehead? I certainly haven't, and the fact that the Blues had that useless hooker as their third choice loosehead ahead of him is troubling. Also I think B. Franks is better at tighthead, so logically Franks -Franks - Woodcock + next best LH seems like the way to go (especially as Woody is more prone now to breaking down than he used to be): however I think Faumuina is potentially a better player than Crockett, so its tempting to go the way you have.
God I hope Craig Clarke does come in for Williams, that'd be O'fe.

[TRF_Darwin]

Whilst I agree with your props, I see you've used Hanson's 'logic' selecting Famuina over Crockett for versitility - have you ever seen Faumuina at loosehead? I certainly haven't, and the fact that the Blues had that useless hooker as their third choice loosehead ahead of him is troubling. Also I think B. Franks is better at tighthead, so logically Franks -Franks - Woodcock + next best LH seems like the way to go (especially as Woody is more prone now to breaking down than he used to be): however I think Faumuina is potentially a better player than Crockett, so its tempting to go the way you have.
God I hope Craig Clarke does come in for Williams, that'd be O'fe.

When predicting the squad that I think Hanson and co. will pick, it is helpful to use their 'logic' I completely agree with the logic behind picking two 'versatile' props if only 4 props are taken too. Say (for example) they took Crockett, Woodcock, and Franks * 2. Crockett is clearly rated behind Woodcock, so isn't a starting option (unless Woodcock got injured), and is not a bench option if Owen Franks and Woodcock are starting. He would only be useful injury cover if Woodcock got injured - if either of the Franks got injured he couldn't even be promoted into the 22, as they need two props capable of playing TH (hence they would have to bring a new player into the squad, and Crockett would still be holding the tackle bags!). If they take 5 props Crockett is certainly an option, and when they change to 8 men benches at international level he will be far more valuble (and B Franks will be far less valuable...).

Anyways... I've seen Faumuina play LH prop plenty of times. He has played almost exclusively at TH prop this season simply because he is the Blues first choice TH prop (and the Blues don't have any other quality TH props), not because he can't play LH prop. I don't quite understand why you think the Blues have McCartney ranked ahead of him at LH prop. Yes, McCartney has been used at LH prop this season, but Faumunina has been starting at TH prop whenever he has been fit - he can't play in both positions!

Faumuina is very capable of playing on the LH side - he has started a number of matches for the Blues/Auckland in the 1 jersey (including the last 3 matches of last season when Woodcock was out injured), and has covered the LH side of the bench for the last few seasons too (most often he - not John Afoa - moved to LH prop if Woodcock went off). I think he is at least as good on the LH side as he is on the TH side!

I'm still not convinced about a number of aspects of Faumuina's play, but his ability to play both sides of the scrum is certainly not one of them!

[TRF_Darwin]

Official squad named:

Hookers
Andrew Hore - Taranaki (65)
Keven Mealamu - Auckland (93)

Props
Wyatt Crockett - Canterbury (6)
Charlie Faumuina - Auckland*
Ben Franks - Canterbury (18)
Owen Franks - Canterbury (34)
Tony Woodcock - North Harbour (86)

Locks
Brodie Retallick - Bay of Plenty (3)
Luke Romano - Canterbury (1)
Samuel Whitelock - Canterbury (28)

Loose forwards
Sam Cane - Bay of Plenty (2)
Richie McCaw (C) - Canterbury (106)
Liam Messam - Waikato (10)
Kieran Read - Canterbury (38)
Adam Thomson - Otago (27)
Victor Vito - Wellington (14)

Halfbacks
Aaron Smith - Manawatu (3)
Piri Weepu - Auckland (59)

First five-eighths
Daniel Carter - Canterbury (87)
Aaron Cruden - Manawatu (11)

Midfielders
Tamati Ellison - Otago (2)
Ma'a Nonu - Wellington (66)
Conrad Smith - Wellington (58)

Outside backs
Israel Dagg - Hawke's Bay (15)
Hosea Gear - Wellington (9)
Cory Jane - Wellington (31)
Ben Smith - Otago (5)
Julian Savea - Wellington (2)

SBW isn't in the squad at this stage, but looks likely to be included for the first two tests as cover for Conrad Smith. Interesting to see they have opted for 5 props again (I don't really mind this), but I'm not convinced about having only 3 locks and 6 loose-forwards. To me it looks like they couldn't decide whether to pick Thomson or Messam, so decided to pick both - however this won't help if one of their locks gets injured (I think Romano is already carrying an injury...)!

The backs basically pick themselves - I would have liked to see Barrett there (to continue to gain experience) but it is difficult to include 3 10's in a 28-man squad. Happy with the back three selections too - it will be interesting to see who out of Gear and Savea is there first choice left wing.

[Larksea]

I kinda like this squad but the selectors took the safe option on the biggest question. Who would miss out from Vito, Thomson and Messam... none, they selected 6 loose forwards!

I think I hinted in one of my other posts that it should happen but I only thought it a 30-40% chance. I think 6 loosies is a good idea. I think in recent times it's proved to be an area of the squad that is injury prone - look at the WC where McCaw, Thomson, Read and I think Vito too all had injury issues. And the Irish series where Messam had to be called in anyway.

Next question is, who get's the first shot at the #6 jersey? It should be between Messam and Thomson, with Messam having an edge from his fantastic super rugby form and great game against the Irish. But one thing to consider is that Thomson has not played in about 5-6 weeks and will be fresh and in good condition. Where messam has played 4 full 80 min finals intensity games in the last 5 weeks.

3 locks is kinda strange but I don't have massive issues with that, Vito or Read can cover there in the case of injury.

5 Props is interesting, maybe a look to the future when an extra front rower can come onto the bench but for now unless there is an injury to Woodcock it's likely Crockett will watch the entire rugby Championship from the stands. I can't help but feel another hooker would be of more use.

Backs overall look ok but interesting looking at the last 8 names on the list and not seeing any of the S15 winning chiefs in it. We will obviously see SWB, such a shame Kahui is injured.

I did not expect Robinson to be selected but he will have an ITM cup to put pressure on for an EOY tour spot. Can't forget about Andre Taylor... either Dagg has some heat on him, has not been a fantastic season for him. Strange because he has stood out for years - he needs to rediscover his mojo.

Really looking at all the outside backs, there is a bit of faith about the selections.

Dagg out of form
Gear hasn't established himself yet and he's pretty long in the tooth for a winger
Jane been out with injury
Ben Smith - not established
Savea New All Black - poor in his last test (2nd irish game) and was dropped for the third.

Far and away from having Dagg, kahui and Jane all in hot form like the world cup.

[admartian]

I tend not to worry about our outside backs or our vets for that matter. They normally perform for the All Blacks 9 times out of 10; so it shouldn't even be an issue.

The only thing that has me a bit put off is that we only have 3 locks. I know we tend to throw to guys like Thomson, Vito or Read anyway, but come scrum time, it's going to tell if we have to plug in a loosie in there.

[dan the man]

A pretty solid squad named.

Pleased to see Crockett in there... (Woodcock wont be around for ever)

I really hope that Messam has a great season! He's been a stand out Loose Forward during the SupeRugby, and seems to have matured hugely over the past few years. He also has a bit more mongrel than the others, his style is similar to Kaino's so it would be awesome to see him start at 6 alongside Read and McCaw.

Personally i would've taken Ellis ahead of Weepu. But Weepu at his best is better than Ellis, and i guess Hansen's job now is to get the best out of him.

Very pleased that Ali Williams wasn't included! Even if it is because of fitness, he hasn't looked all that good since his return to NZ, and has been selected because there have been little competition. Glad to see some new blood in the Locking role.

Something that could be interesting (once SBW is gone) would be to start Cruden at 10 and Carter at 12, they'll probably give this a try against Argentina.

Anyway, looking forward to the Rugby Championship! and starting home and away against the Wallabies is gonna be Awesome! I just hope that Argentina are genuinely competitive and maybe even win a game the Kiwi's and Aussies may find it hard to play them at home so the Argentina home games will be quite interesting to watch!

[Dizzy]

The outside backs pretty much pick themselves

Dagg and Jane have proven time and time again that in the Black jersey, they really take that next step up. And Gear isn't even a surprising selection, he's deservedly been picked. He hasn't been overly-standout-ish but he has been consistent at the Highlanders and had a good game against the Irish. And Savea was one of the best in the competition. A little undecided on Ben Smith though, the man always seems to have a great super rugby stint and then is pretty irrelevent in the All Blacks. But I would spit the darn dummy if we seen Nanai-Williams or Tikoirotuma there so I'm happy with the selections of the outside backs.

[TRF_Draggs]

Ben Smith has hardly had enough time in the All Blacks jersey to be discarded. A start in 2009, a few minutes in 2011 and the outings against Ireland.
Every time I see him play for the Highlanders he makes solid ground. He is dependable yet elusive on attack, from what I can tell. He might lack the top end pace of Gear and Savea, but he showed against Ireland that he is no slouch.

[admartian]

I'd go with either Savea starting on the left, and Jane on the right with Dagg in the back. I'd have Ben Smith as the bench player.

[TRF_Darwin]

I kinda like this squad but the selectors took the safe option on the biggest question. Who would miss out from Vito, Thomson and Messam... none, they selected 6 loose forwards!

I think I hinted in one of my other posts that it should happen but I only thought it a 30-40% chance. I think 6 loosies is a good idea. I think in recent times it's proved to be an area of the squad that is injury prone - look at the WC where McCaw, Thomson, Read and I think Vito too all had injury issues. And the Irish series where Messam had to be called in anyway.

Next question is, who get's the first shot at the #6 jersey? It should be between Messam and Thomson, with Messam having an edge from his fantastic super rugby form and great game against the Irish. But one thing to consider is that Thomson has not played in about 5-6 weeks and will be fresh and in good condition. Where messam has played 4 full 80 min finals intensity games in the last 5 weeks.

3 locks is kinda strange but I don't have massive issues with that, Vito or Read can cover there in the case of injury.

5 Props is interesting, maybe a look to the future when an extra front rower can come onto the bench but for now unless there is an injury to Woodcock it's likely Crockett will watch the entire rugby Championship from the stands. I can't help but feel another hooker would be of more use.

Backs overall look ok but interesting looking at the last 8 names on the list and not seeing any of the S15 winning chiefs in it. We will obviously see SWB, such a shame Kahui is injured.

I did not expect Robinson to be selected but he will have an ITM cup to put pressure on for an EOY tour spot. Can't forget about Andre Taylor... either Dagg has some heat on him, has not been a fantastic season for him. Strange because he has stood out for years - he needs to rediscover his mojo.

Really looking at all the outside backs, there is a bit of faith about the selections.

Dagg out of form
Gear hasn't established himself yet and he's pretty long in the tooth for a winger
Jane been out with injury
Ben Smith - not established
Savea New All Black - poor in his last test (2nd irish game) and was dropped for the third.

Far and away from having Dagg, kahui and Jane all in hot form like the world cup.

I would imagine Vito would get the first shot in the 6 jersey. He was the first choice 6 in the 1st Irish test before injury, and has been in superb form for the Canes all season in a pack that has frequently been going backwards. I agree Messam has been the form New Zealand loose-forward of the Super Rugby competition, but Vito hasn't been too far behind, and I feel his style of play is better suited to test rugby than Messam (though Messam has certainly impressed with his physicality over the last few months).

Big call not to put Dagg in after all he is a big game player but I do agree that his form hasn't been the top that we expect from him. But I wouldnt muck around too much with Dagg, Jane and for me by a country mile Hosea Gear for our back three....................Hansen will start him no matter how bad his form has been, you need only look at Ali and Piri to see his thinking and trust me Dagg hasn't been any where near the 'out of form' that those two mentioned have been.

All in all a devastating bck line when you consider we will have Savea, Conrad, Guilford, Ben Smith, Nonu, Cruden, Carter, Barret, Ellison and SBW (for two games anyway) to fill out the rest of our back line...................we have as always, pace, intelligence, leadership, X factor, experience and most importantly combinations

Yeah I have no doubt they will start Dagg - I just think dropping him to the bench may give him the kick up the arse he needs! I do think Ben Smith deserves a start at fullback at test level - he has been consistently the best New Zealand fullback at Super Rugby level for the last 2-3 years (much better than Dagg) - while Dagg has generally performed very well in the black jersey we don't really know how well Smith would have performed - he may well have performed even better!

Ben Smith has hardly had enough time in the All Blacks jersey to be discarded. A start in 2009, a few minutes in 2011 and the outings against Ireland.
Every time I see him play for the Highlanders he makes solid ground. He is dependable yet elusive on attack, from what I can tell. He might lack the top end pace of Gear and Savea, but he showed against Ireland that he is no slouch.

I admire your taste in rugby players Draggs. As you say he hasn't really been given many chances at test level, and these chances have all come on the wing, when he is far better at fullback (and probably better in the midfield too).

The outside backs pretty much pick themselves

Dagg and Jane have proven time and time again that in the Black jersey, they really take that next step up. And Gear isn't even a surprising selection, he's deservedly been picked. He hasn't been overly-standout-ish but he has been consistent at the Highlanders and had a good game against the Irish. And Savea was one of the best in the competition. A little undecided on Ben Smith though, the man always seems to have a great super rugby stint and then is pretty irrelevent in the All Blacks. But I would spit the darn dummy if we seen Nanai-Williams or Tikoirotuma there so I'm happy with the selections of the outside backs.

The only reason he is pretty irrelevant in the All Blacks is because he doesn't get a chance on the field (as Draggs points out). Whenever he has been on the field (in one of his least preferred positions of wing) he has looked very sharp and composed (apart from in his debut in 2009).

[TRF_Draggs]

I would imagine Vito would get the first shot in the 6 jersey. He was the first choice 6 in the 1st Irish test before injury, and has been in superb form for the Canes all season in a pack that has frequently been going backwards. I agree Messam has been the form New Zealand loose-forward of the Super Rugby competition, but Vito hasn't been too far behind, and I feel his style of play is better suited to test rugby than Messam (though Messam has certainly impressed with his physicality over the last few months).

Agree entirely. I like Thomson for the Highlanders, but I still doubt his ability as an international. I felt the same way about Messam, especially after a few performances last season, but he has impressed me this year. Vito to start, Messam to bench. Is Read definitely back, and do you think Cane will get another start sometime?

Yeah I have no doubt they will start Dagg - I just think dropping him to the bench may give him the kick up the arse he needs! I do think Ben Smith deserves a start at fullback at test level - he has been consistently the best New Zealand fullback at Super Rugby level for the last 2-3 years (much better than Dagg) - while Dagg has generally performed very well in the black jersey we don't really know how well Smith would have performed - he may well have performed even better!

When on form, Dagg has, as many say, the X Factor. I like a steady fullback myself, and as I have said, would start Smith. With Dagg, Smith, Jane you have quite a few utility backs, and they could all feature in the 22.

[Dizzy]

I would imagine Vito would get the first shot in the 6 jersey. He was the first choice 6 in the 1st Irish test before injury, and has been in superb form for the Canes all season in a pack that has frequently been going backwards. I agree Messam has been the form New Zealand loose-forward of the Super Rugby competition, but Vito hasn't been too far behind, and I feel his style of play is better suited to test rugby than Messam (though Messam has certainly impressed with his physicality over the last few months).



Yeah I have no doubt they will start Dagg - I just think dropping him to the bench may give him the kick up the arse he needs! I do think Ben Smith deserves a start at fullback at test level - he has been consistently the best New Zealand fullback at Super Rugby level for the last 2-3 years (much better than Dagg) - while Dagg has generally performed very well in the black jersey we don't really know how well Smith would have performed - he may well have performed even better!


I admire your taste in rugby players Draggs. As you say he hasn't really been given many chances at test level, and these chances have all come on the wing, when he is far better at fullback (and probably better in the midfield too).



The only reason he is pretty irrelevant in the All Blacks is because he doesn't get a chance on the field (as Draggs points out). Whenever he has been on the field (in one of his least preferred positions of wing) he has looked very sharp and composed (apart from in his debut in 2009).

Here we go Darwin, Round 2
Richard Kahui is a centre out and out, yet gets picked on the wing for the All Blacks and does a splendid job at it. Cory Jane WAS a staunch fullback who the All Blacks used as a winger and has only until this year decided he is a winger.
The point I'm trying to make is that it's not the position the player is playing in that shows what they are made of, it is the calibre of the player. They are picked because they are good enough to be there and are expected to perform. Give Ben Smith more time and I have no doubt that he will perform, it's just that at the moment, you can't really oust other players based on Super Rugby form alone especially when they are proven at test level.

[TRF_Darwin]

Agree entirely. I like Thomson for the Highlanders, but I still doubt his ability as an international. I felt the same way about Messam, especially after a few performances last season, but he has impressed me this year. Vito to start, Messam to bench. Is Read definitely back, and do you think Cane will get another start sometime?

Read should be back to full fitness - it was 50:50 whether he would be fit in time for the semi versus the Chiefs, so he should be well and truly fit by now (hopefully!). The only match that Cane may start in the Rugby Championship would be against Argentina at home, but I don't think it is particularly likely (unless there are a few injuries). The AB's don't tend to experiment too much during the Tri-Nations, so I'd expect McCaw to be starting at 7 in every match unless he is injured. I wouldn't be too surprised if Cane gets a couple of matches of the bench though, and I'd expect he will be given a start (or two) during the end of year tour.

[Dizzy]

Read should be back to full fitness - it was 50:50 whether he would be fit in time for the semi versus the Chiefs, so he should be well and truly fit by now (hopefully!). The only match that Cane may start in the Rugby Championship would be against Argentina at home, but I don't think it is particularly likely (unless there are a few injuries). The AB's don't tend to experiment too much during the Tri-Nations, so I'd expect McCaw to be starting at 7 in every match unless he is injured. I wouldn't be too surprised if Cane gets a couple of matches of the bench though, and I'd expect he will be given a start (or two) during the end of year tour.

We pretty much threw the 2011 Tri Nations away because of this experimenting you speak of

[Larksea]

On the Irish Tour Vito, Thomson and Messam all got a start and of them IMO Messam was the standout and I think Vito was the one who really failed to take that chance, sure he got injured but even before he went off he was ok at best. Thomson had a good showing too but I think in a way he failed to produce the physical edge at the advantage line the coaches/everyone were looking for though the other strengths he has are a real value in the right combination.

I see Vito's main role in the squad as backup #8 - this last year I believe has seen Vito Focus on #8 and Messam really focus on becoming a specialist 6

6: Messam, Thomson
7, McCaw, Cane
8, Read, Vito

time will tell and maybe a pecking order will be established, but I like the look of the above.


I'm also really looking forward to seeing Ben Smith get a run, of the guys selected for the back three I think he is the sure form player. I also think Gear will be in pretty good shape after a few weeks off.

[TRF_Darwin]

Here we go Darwin, Round 2
Richard Kahui is a centre out and out, yet gets picked on the wing for the All Blacks and does a splendid job at it. Cory Jane WAS a staunch fullback who the All Blacks used as a winger and has only until this year decided he is a winger.
The point I'm trying to make is that it's not the position the player is playing in that shows what they are made of, it is the calibre of the player. They are picked because they are good enough to be there and are expected to perform.

Yes, and Ben Smith has looked very classy in the few opportunities he has been given!

Not really relevant, but I don't think I would consider Kahui a centre 'out and out'. Yes centre is undoubtedly his preferred position, but he did play his entire debut Super Rugby season (2006) for the Highlanders on the wing!

Give Ben Smith more time and I have no doubt that he will perform, it's just that at the moment, you can't really oust other players based on Super Rugby form alone especially when they are proven at test level.

I'm not suggesting that they should drop Dagg altogether and exclusively play Ben Smith as their number 1 fullback, just that Smith deserves a chance to see whether he can transfer his outstanding Super Rugby form onto the test stage. Dagg has been underwhelming for the Crusaders this season, and was very quiet for the AB's versus Ireland - yes he had a couple of great games for the AB's last season, but he needs to show some form this season if he wants to keep his spot as the AB's first choice fullback!

We pretty much threw the 2011 Tri Nations away because of this experimenting you speak of

You know as well as I do that Rugby World Cup years are the exception to this rule

On the Irish Tour Vito, Thomson and Messam all got a start and of them IMO Messam was the standout and I think Vito was the one who really failed to take that chance, sure he got injured but even before he went off he was ok at best. Thomson had a good showing too but I think in a way he failed to produce the physical edge at the advantage line the coaches/everyone were looking for though the other strengths he has are a real value in the right combination.

I see Vito's main role in the squad as backup #8 - this last year I believe has seen Vito Focus on #8 and Messam really focus on becoming a specialist 6

6: Messam, Thomson
7, McCaw, Cane
8, Read, Vito

time will tell and maybe a pecking order will be established, but I like the look of the above.

I'm also really looking forward to seeing Ben Smith get a run, of the guys selected for the back three I think he is the sure form player. I also think Gear will be in pretty good shape after a few weeks off.

I don't think you can read that much into the loose-forwards performances in the Irish series. There is no doubt that Messam had a better performance than Thomson and Vito, but the overall team performance needs to be taken into account. The All Blacks were completely dominant in the third test, and all off the loose-forwards were outstanding, including a 20 year-old on his starting debut (Cane), and a player who had been poor in the previous two tests (McCaw). If Thomson or Vito had started at 6 in this test I have little doubt they would have had an outstanding match too. I think it is very harsh to suggest that Vito 'didn't take his chance' - I thought he looked very good in the 40-odd mins before going off in the first test, while Thomson was the pick of the loose-forwards (if not the entire forward pack) in the second test (but I personally wouldn't start him).

Though Messam has really improved his physicality lately he still runs far too much across the field for my liking. When he does run straight and hard he is very effective (as we saw at times in the final) - he just needs to focus more on doing this. Messam does break a lot of tackles by fending players off while running across the field, but he doesn't make the advantage line as regularly as Vito, who runs much straighter (and hence breaks the line more often). I certainly wouldn't be too bothered if Messam starts at 6 (as he warrants a start on form), but I think the selectors will give Vito the first shot at 6.

[Larksea]

I think if Vito or Thomson do get first start it will be more because they are fresh rather than form. Like the Irish series were Vito prob for the first start because Thomson needed a rest. Where now you have Messam who has had 4 finals intensity games in the last 5 weeks and Vito/Thomson have had the last 4-5 weeks off.

now obviously the chiefs/Messam will have parades, press and other things to deal with this weak

Going up against an Australian squad who has had very little involvement in the finals series and will be very fresh, I think the AB's will look to use their fresh players where they can with just 1 week off then into the Rugby Championship.

[Dizzy]

Yes, and Ben Smith has looked very classy in the few opportunities he has been given!

Not really relevant, but I don't think I would consider Kahui a centre 'out and out'. Yes centre is undoubtedly his preferred position, but he did play his entire debut Super Rugby season (2006) for the Highlanders on the wing!



I'm not suggesting that they should drop Dagg altogether and exclusively play Ben Smith as their number 1 fullback, just that Smith deserves a chance to see whether he can transfer his outstanding Super Rugby form onto the test stage. Dagg has been underwhelming for the Crusaders this season, and was very quiet for the AB's versus Ireland - yes he had a couple of great games for the AB's last season, but he needs to show some form this season if he wants to keep his spot as the AB's first choice fullback!



You know as well as I do that Rugby World Cup years are the exception to this rule

I don't think you give Dagg as much credit as he deserves, he has produced some real class in that All Black jumper and to say he has had a coupld good games is very short of what he really has done. I remember him coming off the bench in 2010 and scoring a magnificient try with little room down the short side, beating about 5 defenders in the 22 and scoring magnificiently.. Not to mention the game against Australia in last years semi.. From what I remember he was good against the Irish as well..

Lol... Yes there is an exception in World Cup year BUT!!!... with the Tri Nations having a history behind it and with it being the VERY LAST ONE, I think we should've fought for that trophy as hard as the next especially with it being the last time it would be up for grabs... My country dissapointed me at that tournament.

[TRF_Darwin]

I don't think you give Dagg as much credit as he deserves, he has produced some real class in that All Black jumper and to say he has had a coupld good games is very short of what he really has done. I remember him coming off the bench in 2010 and scoring a magnificient try with little room down the short side, beating about 5 defenders in the 22 and scoring magnificiently.. Not to mention the game against Australia in last years semi.. From what I remember he was good against the Irish as well..

Lol... Yes there is an exception in World Cup year BUT!!!... with the Tri Nations having a history behind it and with it being the VERY LAST ONE, I think we should've fought for that trophy as hard as the next especially with it being the last time it would be up for grabs... My country dissapointed me at that tournament.

I didn't say that though, did I

I believe I stated that he had a couple of great games for the AB's last season (the semi-final vs Australia that you have already mentioned, as well as the pool game vs France, and the match vs South Africa in South Africa all stand out to me). He was good in the first Irish test this year, poor in the second (and almost cost the AB's game by getting yellow carded), and quiet in the third. A solid enough performance from an AB's fullback? Yes. Good enough for him to be guaranteed the AB's 15 jersey all this season? No, not in my opinion.

There is no doubt that Dagg all the talent to nail down the AB's fullback for the next 5+ years, and could even go down as one of the greats (as he is phenomenal when on form). However, he needs still needs to cut down his error rate and perform more consistently, otherwise there are a number of NZ fullbacks that could pressure him for a starting spot....

[Amobokoboko]

Happy to see Messam in the squad. Pity Hika Elliot sn't there as a hooker. Especially as our hookers aren't getting younger. ( Already thinking about the next world cup)

[Invictus]

Personally, my top team would be:
1 Woodcock
2 Hore
3 Franks
4 Romano
5 Whitelock
6 Messam
7 McCaw
8 Read
9 Smith
10 Carter
11 Gear
12 Williams
13 Nonu
14 Jane
15 Dagg

16 Mealamu
17 Franks (or Faumauina, once he gets a few games)
18 Retalick
19 Cane
20 Weepu
21 Cruden
22 Smith

Once Conrad Smith is back and SBW leaves, you can move the midfield back to its normal state. I think Romano offers more at 4 than Retalick does, though any two of the three locks starting would be fine for me - especially as OZ/SA hardly have experienced combos at the moment. Give Dagg the 15 jersey, at least for now. Alternatively you can shift him onto the wing and put Smith in at fullback, which I think would be a solid back three for SA and ARG. Savea can get a run against OZ. With Cane on the bench the loose forward positions are all well covered. Messam to me is the best 6 option we have, at least at the moment.

[Larksea]

Going to be interesting to see where the pecking order is with Savea and Gear.

I think Gear is the safer option, he's obviously more experienced. But at the same time I hope they pick Savea because for him to improve he needs test experience. hard on gear but he's nearing the end of his carrier in terms of age for wingers and Savea is just beginning - you would have to think his potential is so much bigger. I'd like to see him given a chance to prove he's learned from the two Irish tests he got.

Also think Having Jane around will help savea.

[Ruckyou]

You would think Tameifuna would get the prop spot instead of Faumuina considering he played pretty much a full season, and performed above average. Compaired to Charlie being out majority of the season with injury, but i am a big fan of Charlie Faumuina and hope he gets a crack and produces something special.

Locks are concerning and its just fingers crossed ethier of the 3 while evolve into a world class player.

Race for the number 6 jersey will be interesting. No idea who they will favour, possibly Victor Vito.

Ker Barlow might feel hard done by. he came out firing after the snubbing from the Irish tests and backed it up with a Super15 title.

The backs are lethal, will tear any team to shreads, even without SBW

[Icemn]

i thin the AB backline will howhow struggle without SBW... ok maybe not struggle, but they will be less effective... any team will.. the man makes a huge impact...

i just love to see the wellington players in the backline

[Larksea]

Backline is a worry for me as well.

Few question marks over Carter but he always answers them, in particular with the All Blacks.

Weepu? pfft
Nonu - really hasn't had a great year, been selected on faith and he will need to repay it fast
Smith injured for a few weeks yet
Ellison - bit of an unknown quantity
Gear - not an established test player at 28, most wingers peak under 25
Savea - 2 tests
Dagg - form slump

Key for the all blacks really is for the forwards to dominate, that is the area where we have some form. If they do then the backs should get chances and if they take them then they will gain confidence

A lot falls on Carter and A Smith, time for Nonu's season to start and for Jane to hopefully bring his A game.

[nemui10pm]

I thought Nonu played very well in the Blues' last game against the Brumbies, though that seems like an age ago now!
True, the Blues as a whole were better in that game than they were all season, but since he's going to be playing with the other All Blacks instead of this year's Blues team (and under a different coach!), I'm not too worried about Nonu. Although, I haven't seen him at 13 and don't know how well that would work, if it were to happen.