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Originally Posted by Larksea Backline is a worry for me as well. Few question marks over Carter but he always answers them, in particular with the All Blacks. Weepu? pfft Nonu - really hasn't had a great year, been selected on faith and he will need to repay it fast Smith injured for a few weeks yet Ellison - bit of an unknown quantity Gear - not an established test player at 28, most wingers peak under 25 Savea - 2 tests Dagg - form slump Key for the all blacks really is for the forwards to dominate, that is the area where we have some form. If they do then the backs should get chances and if they take them then they will gain confidence A lot falls on Carter and A Smith, time for Nonu's season to start and for Jane to hopefully bring his A game. These two points I kind of disagree with. 1. Nonu really doesn't have to prove himself at all. For one he's a very established 12 and for another, with Sonny Bill Williams out, who is going to replace him? It's almost a one horse race, for as much as I like Bateman I don't think he's going to replace Nonu for a long while. Same goes with Crotty who is solid but never going to be a star. 2. While I agree he's not young, he's still very quick and can break tackles. He's over a year younger than Cory Jane and considerably quicker, so I don't think it's fair to label anyone past their best before they start showing signs of aging. With that said, I'd imagin Julian Savea will keep on improving to the point where he is better than an aging Gear, but probably not this series or even year.
I don't get the Weepu Choice over Kerr-Barlow. Piri has been having a rough spell with the Blues and I don't see how he will do better in RC... I believe that Barlow - Cruden is the ideal setup at the moment.
Originally Posted by JG52Hummel I don't get the Weepu Choice over Kerr-Barlow. Piri has been having a rough spell with the Blues and I don't see how he will do better in RC... I believe that Barlow - Cruden is the ideal setup at the moment. I think Weepu's experience is the main reason for his inclusion. Like you, I would have preferred Kerr-Barlow (or even Andy Ellis), but hopefully the selectors know what they are doing!
Yeah, in my opinion Piri Weepu is the best all-round halfback on the planet - when he's at his best. If Steve Hansen is able to get that out of him then his selection will be warranted. The same could be said about Nonu too.
http://s1.jrnl.ie/media/2012/06/inph...09-390x285.jpg
Originally Posted by dan the man Yeah, in my opinion Piri Weepu is the best all-round halfback on the planet - when he's at his best. You are very welcome to your opinion with which I beg to disagree.......................surely he is just there to lead the community singing before the match as no one else can remember the words?!!!
And another thing, since we are talking of men passed over; also from the Blues, Lachie Munro did very well the times he played, in spite of the Blues let down season. I would have liked to see him too get selected. And, since we are at this: what happened to Masaga? surely a great season he has had and would have been nice for Dave Rennie to have given him more chances to play.
Originally Posted by JG52Hummel And another thing, since we are talking of men passed over; also from the Blues, Lachie Munro did very well the times he played, in spite of the Blues let down season. I would have liked to see him too get selected. And, since we are at this: what happened to Masaga? surely a great season he has had and would have been nice for Dave Rennie to have given him more chances to play. Masaga I agree with. Lachie Munro has a defense similar to a fire drill; stop, drop and roll.
Lachie Munroe? ... ..... ...... Seriously? He is one of the worst NZ back three players i've ever seen. If it wasn't for his goal kicking i doubt he would have even made ITM cup level. You can do so much better than that. You shouldn't start giving caps out of pity
Last edited by welshglory; 09-08-12 at 02:53 PM.
I agree weepu is the best 9 in the world "when he's fit and firing" But how often do we see him at his peak? a few months every couple of years? I'm sick of sitting down to watch a game and looking to see weather Weepu is looking fit and in shape or what would not be his "normal" shape of chubby and slow. I'd rather the AB's picked a 9 where they know what they are going to get. Even if they are not as good as Weepu when he's at this best.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o.../kakahitsm.jpg "The laughing bear, drives a motorcycle" - Israel Dagg, Sep - 2011 Cometh the hour, cometh the Don!
Originally Posted by TRF_Darwin I think Weepu's experience is the main reason for his inclusion. Like you, I would have preferred Kerr-Barlow (or even Andy Ellis), but hopefully the selectors know what they are doing! Agree, if we need experience to support Smith and cruden then ellis would have been a better option, enough experience but much more professional...as in turns up fit and ready to play
Whatever happened to the 'Andy Ellis can piss off brigade' of 18 months ago?
In Shaun we trust @draggs_XV
Munroe?? interesting call, he's had a couple of good showings and he is a very good goal kicker but really when he's playing wing he does not offer much other than his goal kicking, not so good on defense on the wing either and he has no been consistent enough to establish himself as a 10 at the blues. Shame because when he first came on the scene he looked very good. But on current form he us a super rugby bench option at best.
Originally Posted by Larksea I agree weepu is the best 9 in the world "when he's fit and firing" But how often do we see him at his peak? a few months every couple of years? I'm sick of sitting down to watch a game and looking to see weather Weepu is looking fit and in shape or what would not be his "normal" shape of chubby and slow. I'd rather the AB's picked a 9 where they know what they are going to get. Even if they are not as good as Weepu when he's at this best. Yeah, i do tend to agree... guys should be rewarded for their form during the season rather than picked based on what they have done in the past. In saying that i wouldn't be surprised if this was Weepu's last chance, with the amount of talent coming through in the number 9 jersey at the moment i can't see him being around after 2012 (as an All Black). I'd rather they used Ellis as the experienced halfback and began training up Smith and Kerr-Barlow. The All Blacks are an aging team and are going to look very different in a few years time, It's very important to win the Rugby Championships and to get the NH Grand Slams in between World Cups, but it's also very Important to build towards them. Andrew Hore (33) Keven Mealamu (33) Tony Woodcock (31) Wyatt Crockett (29) Adam Thomson (30) Richie McCaw (31) Piri Weepu (28) Dan Carter (30) Ma'a Nonu (30) Conrad Smith (30) Cory Jane (30) I would be surprised if any of these guys were around in Four years time, and most of them are incumbents... 8 of them would be in an All Blacks starting XV and one of them is the Captain and two of them would be considered by many as the greatest players of all time!
Originally Posted by Draggs Whatever happened to the 'Andy Ellis can piss off brigade' of 18 months ago? I think that brigade still exists, it is just less popular than the 'Piri Weepu can piss off brigade'! Though Ellis is a bit limited at test level, he was our best test halfback last season (after years of being pretty disappointing), and always performs at Super Rugby level. If they want an experienced test halfback he is probably the lesser of two evils I think most New Zealanders are just waiting for TJ Perenara to recover from his injury, or for Kerr-Barlow to be selected, as between Smith, Perenara, and Kerr-Barlow we should have quality international halfbacks for the foreseeable future...
Last edited by TRF_Darwin; 09-08-12 at 09:36 PM.
Originally Posted by JG52Hummel And another thing, since we are talking of men passed over; also from the Blues, Lachie Munro did very well the times he played, in spite of the Blues let down season. I would have liked to see him too get selected. And, since we are at this: what happened to Masaga? surely a great season he has had and would have been nice for Dave Rennie to have given him more chances to play. No. Please no to Munro. Originally Posted by dan the man Yeah, i do tend to agree... guys should be rewarded for their form during the season rather than picked based on what they have done in the past. In saying that i wouldn't be surprised if this was Weepu's last chance, with the amount of talent coming through in the number 9 jersey at the moment i can't see him being around after 2012 (as an All Black). I'd rather they used Ellis as the experienced halfback and began training up Smith and Kerr-Barlow. The All Blacks are an aging team and are going to look very different in a few years time, It's very important to win the Rugby Championships and to get the NH Grand Slams in between World Cups, but it's also very Important to build towards them. Andrew Hore (33) Keven Mealamu (33) Tony Woodcock (31) Wyatt Crockett (29) Adam Thomson (30) Richie McCaw (31) Piri Weepu (28) Dan Carter (30) Ma'a Nonu (30) Conrad Smith (30) Cory Jane (30) I would be surprised if any of these guys were around in Four years time, and most of them are incumbents... 8 of them would be in an All Blacks starting XV and one of them is the Captain and two of them would be considered by many as the greatest players of all time! I think Carter can still play at 34 come next RWC. First-five is probably one of those positions you can play when you're getting on a bit. ESPECIALLY the way Carter plays - where he's not reliant on speed or explosiveness. Probably the same for Conrad Smith. But yeah, a lot of those guys are getting older and will not likely be around come 2015.
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SBW's involvement in the tournament is still in doubt, as he has yet to receive clearance from his Japanese club. While I think we have a better chance with him in the starting lineup, a part of me wants him to be unavailable so we can play Ben Smith at centre
I think Ellison would be next cab of the rank if SBW isn't in the 22... Smith actually looks to be getting better with age - indeed this has probably been his best Super Rugby season in a while (if not ever!).
Originally Posted by TRF_Darwin SBW's involvement in the tournament is still in doubt, as he has yet to receive clearance from his Japanese club. While I think we have a better chance with him in the starting lineup, a part of me wants him to be unavailable so we can play Ben Smith at centre who in your opinion is better at 13, smith or ellison? for me its ellison all the way. I am a big smith fan but never rated him at centre other than in an emergancy, he needs space to work his magic carter could still play at 34....but do we want him to? cruden (as just one example) will be 26 or 27, do we really expect him to play second fiddle for the next four years , especially given his form? we need to make the hard decisions and move people on when their replacement comes up...not when they choose to retire
Originally Posted by Jabby who in your opinion is better at 13, smith or ellison? for me its ellison all the way. I am a big smith fan but never rated him at centre other than in an emergancy, he needs space to work his magic I hope u talking about ben smith and not Conrad My prob is not with the backline, there more tnan enough talent... And I'm with Darwin on the scrum half issue...we also have Gear to Lead the haka My concern is with the hookers.. The 1 is 80 and the other 90... And I'm not talking about test caps... what is the tactic here? Play each 1 for 40min??? When are they gonna get some younger guys in there, Coles and flynn maybe... I just checked the age stats, and Flynn is basically the same age as hore and Kevin Who else is at hooker :?
Last edited by Icemn; 10-08-12 at 06:14 AM.
This can't be Naas Botha.........This man is running with the ball...
Originally Posted by Jabby who in your opinion is better at 13, smith or ellison? for me its ellison all the way. I am a big smith fan but never rated him at centre other than in an emergancy, he needs space to work his magic carter could still play at 34....but do we want him to? cruden (as just one example) will be 26 or 27, do we really expect him to play second fiddle for the next four years , especially given his form? we need to make the hard decisions and move people on when their replacement comes up...not when they choose to retire Thought a lot about this. Yes. Yes I want him playing till the next World Cup, or at least until the two other options are significantly better tan him. He's the best 1st 5/8th of all time, and I don't think four more years is going to diminsh that. He has a very good running game atm which may be effected, but his vision, kicking and leadership are unlikely to faulter. I'd be happy with him to continue starting, with Aaron Cruden (who will be 26) and Beauden Barrett (24) getting oppertunities to push for selection. Either way, last World Cup we were down to our 4th choice 1st 5/8th. There is really no downside to keeping the best 1st 5/8th (who will be 33, not 34) of all time active, especially considering some players like Contepomi have played some of their best rugby at the same age. It's different from wing.
Originally Posted by TRF_nickdnz Thought a lot about this. Yes. Yes I want him playing till the next World Cup, or at least until the two other options are significantly better tan him. He's the best 1st 5/8th of all time, and I don't think four more years is going to diminsh that. He has a very good running game atm which may be effected, but his vision, kicking and leadership are unlikely to faulter. I'd be happy with him to continue starting, with Aaron Cruden (who will be 26) and Beauden Barrett (24) getting oppertunities to push for selection. Either way, last World Cup we were down to our 4th choice 1st 5/8th. There is really no downside to keeping the best 1st 5/8th (who will be 33, not 34) of all time active, especially considering some players like Contepomi have played some of their best rugby at the same age. It's different from wing. All of Carter, Cruden, Barrett and Slade will start getting very generous offers from the NH. Once the AB selectors have chosen a first choice, it will require a lot of commitment from the other guys to stay in NZ, or the NZRU won't be able to afford keeping them if the players don't to be just bench options. Playing Carter may mean some of the other will do a Nick Evans. They are still young, so they may come back and it won't necessarilly be a bad thing, but it could also mean that playing Carter in four years will make that the AB won't have a 10 in five or six years. Finally, I don't know what Carter wants, maybe he has said he wants to stay in NZ forever, but you couldn't blame him if he chose the pound/euro in a year or two.
Originally Posted by ZeFrenchy All of Carter, Cruden, Barrett and Slade will start getting very generous offers from the NH. Once the AB selectors have chosen a first choice, it will require a lot of commitment from the other guys to stay in NZ, or the NZRU won't be able to afford keeping them if the players don't to be just bench options. Playing Carter may mean some of the other will do a Nick Evans. They are still young, so they may come back and it won't necessarilly be a bad thing, but it could also mean that playing Carter in four years will make that the AB won't have a 10 in five or six years. Finally, I don't know what Carter wants, maybe he has said he wants to stay in NZ forever, but you couldn't blame him if he chose the pound/euro in a year or two. Good point, except Nick Evans and Luke McAlister were Carter's age or older (as apposed to a 7 and 9 year gap). It's three more years, which is about the same as many players take before they become first choice. Daniel Carter has already signed with the NZRU till 2015, so that's not an issue. I believe he does have a sebatical in his contract, but for only a season or so. So it comes down to Aaron Cruden and Beauden Barrett staying, which I can't see them leaving before 2015 and I doubt they're likely to leave when they're the first choice 1st 5/8ths. The timing of the players is just at the point where we're alright, no matter the outcome. The other option is one of the three moving to second 5/8th, even if that eventually becomes Carter, as that's a position we're short in. I have no doubt we'll see some experimentation of Cruden 10-Carter 12 within the next year.
Originally Posted by Jabby who in your opinion is a better at 13, smith or ellison? for me its ellison all the way. I am a big smith fan but never rated him at centre other than in an emergancy, he needs space to work his magic At this point in time I do think Ellison is a slighty better 13, and will fully deserve to start at 13 if he gets a chance. However I think Ben Smith is potentially a better 13, and indeed has the potential to be a world class 13, as I see so much of Conrad Smith in his play. Indeed when they were playing together in the last AB's test I had trouble telling them apart on several occasions as they have a strikingly similar running style! I really like the physicality that Ellison brings on both attack and defense, but I don't think his distribution skills are that great. He doesn't really create things for other players - he either has a go himself by cutting back against the traffic (usually very effectively), or simply passes the ball straight out to the wing. He is certainly not the worst distributing centre going around, but the AB's have been spoiled by having the best distributing centre in world rugby for the last 5 or so years, and with world class outside backs I think a strong distribution game is a must for any AB's centre. This is the main reason I think Ben Smith has so much potential in the centre position, as he reads the game brilliantly, has great handling skills, runs with the ball in two hands, and has an outstanding ability to straighten the line with ball in hand and create space for his players outside. I still think that fullback is Ben Smith's best position (indeed I would start him at 15 for the AB's), and it is certainly the position he is most valuable for the Highlanders/Otago, beacuse as you say he works well with a bit of space to move. He hasn't received that space in the few times he has played in the midfield for the Highlanders/Otago in recent seasons due to being part of some very average backlines - outside a backline of of Smith, Carter, and Nonu I think he would get a lot of space, and would create even more space for his outsides. When he entered the (far more functional) Highlanders backline in the midfield this season he always created a lot of space. I think a lot of my faith in Smith at centre is from watching him play there at club level for Green Island over the years, where he just looked at a completely different level to any other back in Dunedin club rugby....
Originally Posted by TRF_Darwin At this point in time I do think Ellison is a slighty better 13, and will fully deserve to start at 13 if he gets a chance. However I think Ben Smith is potentially a better 13, and indeed has the potential to be a world class 13, as I see so much of Conrad Smith in his play. Indeed when they were playing together in the last AB's test I had trouble telling them apart on several occasions as they have a strikingly similar running style! I really like the physicality that Ellison brings on both attack and defense, but I don't think his distribution skills are that great. He doesn't really create things for other players - he either has a go himself by cutting back against the traffic (usually very effectively), or simply passes the ball straight out to the wing. He is certainly not the worst distributing centre going around, but the AB's have been spoiled by having the best distributing centre in world rugby for the last 5 or so years, and with world class outside backs I think a strong distribution game is a must for any AB's centre. This is the main reason I think Ben Smith has so much potential in the centre position, as he reads the game brilliantly, has great handling skills, runs with the ball in two hands, and has an outstanding ability to straighten the line with ball in hand and create space for his players outside. I still think that fullback is Ben Smith's best position (indeed I would start him at 15 for the AB's), and it is certainly the position he is most valuable for the Highlanders/Otago, beacuse as you say he works well with a bit of space to move. He hasn't received that space in the few times he has played in the midfield for the Highlanders/Otago in recent seasons due to being part of some very average backlines - outside a backline of of Smith, Carter, and Nonu I think he would get a lot of space, and would create even more space for his outsides. When he entered the (far more functional) Highlanders backline in the midfield this season he always created a lot of space. I think a lot of my faith in Smith at centre is from watching him play there at club level for Green Island over the years, where he just looked at a completely different level to any other back in Dunedin club rugby.... I'm also a fan of Smith playing at centre. To me I think he's more suited to centre than the outside backs, at least in terms of skillset. His best position for the moment is fullback (as is mentioned, he's most effective with time on the ball), but I think in terms of potential his best position is probably centre.
Originally Posted by TRF_Darwin I still think that fullback is Ben Smith's best position (indeed I would start him at 15 for the AB's), and it is certainly the position he is most valuable for the Highlanders/Otago, beacuse as you say he works well with a bit of space to move. He hasn't received that space in the few times he has played in the midfield for the Highlanders/Otago in recent seasons due to being part of some very average backlines - outside a backline of of Smith, Carter, and Nonu I think he would get a lot of space, and would create even more space for his outsides. When he entered the (far more functional) Highlanders backline in the midfield this season he always created a lot of space. I think a lot of my faith in Smith at centre is from watching him play there at club level for Green Island over the years, where he just looked at a completely different level to any other back in Dunedin club rugby.... I cant argue with that...and now i really want to see him at 13 and see what he can do with these guys around him! Originally Posted by TRF_nickdnz Thought a lot about this. Yes. Yes I want him playing till the next World Cup, or at least until the two other options are significantly better tan him. He's the best 1st 5/8th of all time, and I don't think four more years is going to diminsh that. He has a very good running game atm which may be effected, but his vision, kicking and leadership are unlikely to faulter. I'd be happy with him to continue starting, with Aaron Cruden (who will be 26) and Beauden Barrett (24) getting oppertunities to push for selection. Either way, last World Cup we were down to our 4th choice 1st 5/8th. There is really no downside to keeping the best 1st 5/8th (who will be 33, not 34) of all time active, especially considering some players like Contepomi have played some of their best rugby at the same age. It's different from wing. so no one will get a shot unless they become better than the best fly half of all time?!?!?! come on! * i just deleted a big rant i went on about keeping people around longer than they should be but its a bit beside the point * unless these guys get passed the mantle they wont grow. i'm not saying send carter off the meat works but maybe he comes of the bench to either close out a game or save one, let the new guys do their thing knowing there is the backup to sort it if something goes wrong. I dont think Barrett could be blamed if he went overseas knowing there was carter and cruden in front of him for the next four years, keep in mind by then there will be half a dozen 20 year olds wanting the prove themselves
The thing is for the players to get the real big $ overseas they really need to show their stuff at test level. Being in an all black side to beat England or France really puts a player on the map. And as far as 10's go every super rugby side needs a very good 10 else they may as well not bother turning up. So at least they will be getting some decent $ already. I think the main flight risk for NZ 10's is slade. After a disaster few seasons with injury and seeing himself slip in the pecking order behind Cruden and Barrett and have to move from his hometown to play rugby anyway. He's got the world cup winners medal already! really realistically the only way he's going to get back into the AB's again is when carter retires and maybe add in a Cruden injury. heck then he still has to make sure he's ahead of Anscombe and Tom Taylor, just so he can be on the bench behind barrett? I bet a few seasons in Japan earning enough to set himself up long term looks like a very attractive option for Slade right now after the last two years. You never know, his ITM cup a couple of seasons ago showed just how good he is. But he will have to realize that and more to get back the the sharp end of NZ rugby. He'll have to basically come back next year and ride the highlanders to the top of the table.
