USA Rugby backed professional league to be announced soon...

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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigs Man View Post
    i don't think America will ever get into rugby really.

    Pro 12 will not work for USA.
    Super rugby has enough problems but it's schedule could fit.

    Americans really just don't care about rugby, it's interesting enough that one off games work but that's it IMO.

    World Rugby needs to get more international games played in America and all over not just Chicago if it is serious about expanding into it.

    Can see League getting the jump now.
    Pity...Whilst i think this is a small disaster for North American rugby, I don't this is WR is guilty here but au contraire, both USA and Canada had constantly tests vs T1 and occasions to prove themselves and develop. Also many Internationals had easy time to sign European pro clubs. Look at last one, Ilnicki signed Saints. There are few Georgian or Romanian props who are better players than him still playing for Romanian/Georgian clubs or French lower divisions yet they got this Canadian player eyeing the NA market probably. With all that, they are under performing for years and now a very interesting prospect of developing rugby there is going down...

    Maybe WR should also take the same care of other nations who are struggling to develop. Romania has an workable fully pro league for 5 years with salaries now matching upper Fed 1/lower ProD2 for some players and beat Canada constantly in last year, also defeated USA yet didn't received a T1 test for 9 years already outside RWC and will likely turn 11 or 12 years without a T1 test whilst Canada played twice vs T1 this year. Not exactly connected with Pro Rugby, I know but shows that WR gave enough opportunities to North America.

    So Americans should try to help themselves too, not just wait for WR...they had occasions and means at which countries like Romania, Georgia, Uruguay, Namibia can only dream.

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  3. #82
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    Difference is that none of those countries has the sporting competition that US has our market potential.

    But yes the USA rugby and Canada rugby are useless farts who are being lured into things i don't think they have a clue about.

    All very unprofessional.

    TBF to saints all the Gerogian international props are at french clubs or Bristol, and Romanian only have the one TH prop not contracted to a french club. Saints needed a TH then and now for injury cover and wouldn't have had time to scout the clubs.
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  4. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigs Man View Post
    Difference is that none of those countries has the sporting competition that US has our market potential.

    But yes the USA rugby and Canada rugby are useless farts who are being lured into things i don't think they have a clue about.

    All very unprofessional.

    TBF to saints all the Gerogian international props are at french clubs or Bristol, and Romanian only have the one TH prop not contracted to a french club. Saints needed a TH then and now for injury cover and wouldn't have had time to scout the clubs.
    This was the last name that come into my mind, I didn't followed the players who signed for NH pro clubs to make a case against North Americans, nothing like this. It just confirms that generally WR and established countries are ignorant outside their close club.

    More, Romania is an EU country and it isn't such a small market, not nearly as big but still with a decent size; anyway you can't tie North America from Europe in competitions so the argument about the market is just a general meme which is thrown on every occasion when somebody claims WR should help the development of rugby world wide...it's a general mantra without any practical foundation.

    I think this is the 3rd try to set up a pro league in North America and fails for the very same reason despite the support from WR which was much stronger compared with other T2 countries and also enforced by cultural ties with home nations...
    Last edited by amz; 21-12-16 at 12:36 PM. Reason: grammar

  5. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigs Man View Post
    i don't think America will ever get into rugby really.

    Pro 12 will not work for USA.
    Super rugby has enough problems but it's schedule could fit.

    Americans really just don't care about rugby, it's interesting enough that one off games work but that's it IMO.

    World Rugby needs to get more international games played in America and all over not just Chicago if it is serious about expanding into it.

    Can see League getting the jump now.

    It doesn't need to. All it needs is pockets of interest here and there. If 2% of the country were rugby fans, thats about 6m people.


    There were already a number of interested parties in joining the pro12 so what this space though Super Rugby might be a better fit, as you say. I'd personally prefer the Pro12 to concentrate on expanding in Europe but its debatable whether European countries could afford to set up a franchise. To run a team, you're talking about 5/6m per season for a number of seasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amz View Post
    I think this is the 3rd try to set up a pro league in North America and fails for the very same reason despite the support from WR which was much stronger compared with other T2 countries and also enforced by cultural ties with home nations...
    I'm not sure World Rugby gave a whole lot of support to PRO Rugby. Brett Gosper came out a few months back welcoming the prospect of Pro12 or Super Rugby getting involved in North American rugby. As said by Tigs Man above it's just all very amateurish all round.

    Still, Sunwolves might get Yamada now!

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    I'm an American rugby fan and am sadden by the fact that PRO rugby has taken a big hit in its viability. I honestly think the blame can be spread to both parties. USA Rugby and Pro rugby seemed like they were both in a big rush to get the league up and running without most of the infastructure that it takes to get a professional organization off the ground. Had they used a model like Major League Soccer used in it formative years by securing corporate dollars by way of sponsorship deals, worked out national, regional, and local tv contracts it might have done much better. I dont believe the support from USA Rugby was whole hearted because when the PRO 12 came around, they seemed to forget about the exclusive agreement they made with PRO Rugby. USA Rugby was looking for a pay day from the Pro 12 instead of building something of their own from the ground up, the whole thing is a shame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by profitius View Post
    It doesn't need to. All it needs is pockets of interest here and there. If 2% of the country were rugby fans, thats about 6m people.


    There were already a number of interested parties in joining the pro12 so what this space though Super Rugby might be a better fit, as you say. I'd personally prefer the Pro12 to concentrate on expanding in Europe but its debatable whether European countries could afford to set up a franchise. To run a team, you're talking about €5/6m per season for a number of seasons.

    If pro 12 happens in america i suspect the whole thing will become Italy mark 2, It's set in the wrong time of year for US sports really esp for the North east (Which is the obvious target. Super rugby has a better chance of succeeding.

    For the sake of US rugby i hope that it goes more towards Super rugby than Pro 12.

    Georgia could prob afford to set up a franchise IMO, Spain increase in rugby another one, not sure on the Romanian set up but suspect they could do a better job than the Italian clubs really.

    IF Yamada comes back to sunwolves then the whole thing is one big win though.

    USA needed to build grass roots support and one or two franchises on the east coast in big cities like New York, Chicago and Boston where they will be competing against the NHL, NFL and NBA will do nothing IMO.

    It's not like Rugby has star names with worldwide appeal FFS Owen Farrell was rugbys face in the beats advert featuring stars like Serena Williams and Lebron James, i would say that 0.001% of america's population could name more than 3 pro rugby players currently and 0.0001% could name a NH player.
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    we need a super rugby type set up... play our elite club season in the fall and then however many teams we get in super rugby can be filled out based on fall performance... two between us and canada possibly?

    i still don't see us competing with any of the professional leagues with only north american players... we would need to bring in established pro players

    it's more important that our teams be successful than have american players

    Add-on: btw I see no reason for Super Rugby to even consider a north american franchise... it would make no sense

    i could see PRO-12 being desperate enough to do it

    but then americans who get confused by all the competitions in soccer would be blown away by the challenge and champions cup
    Last edited by themole25; 21-12-16 at 06:37 PM.

  10. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by themole25 View Post
    we need a super rugby type set up... play our elite club season in the fall and then however many teams we get in super rugby can be filled out based on fall performance... two between us and canada possibly?

    i still don't see us competing with any of the professional leagues with only north american players... we would need to bring in established pro players

    it's more important that our teams be successful than have american players

    Add-on: btw I see no reason for Super Rugby to even consider a north american franchise... it would make no sense

    i could see PRO-12 being desperate enough to do it

    but then americans who get confused by all the competitions in soccer would be blown away by the challenge and champions cup
    Super rugby will want the potential cash.
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  11. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigs Man View Post
    If pro 12 happens in america i suspect the whole thing will become Italy mark 2, It's set in the wrong time of year for US sports really esp for the North east (Which is the obvious target. Super rugby has a better chance of succeeding.

    For the sake of US rugby i hope that it goes more towards Super rugby than Pro 12.

    Georgia could prob afford to set up a franchise IMO, Spain increase in rugby another one, not sure on the Romanian set up but suspect they could do a better job than the Italian clubs really.

    IF Yamada comes back to sunwolves then the whole thing is one big win though.

    USA needed to build grass roots support and one or two franchises on the east coast in big cities like New York, Chicago and Boston where they will be competing against the NHL, NFL and NBA will do nothing IMO.

    It's not like Rugby has star names with worldwide appeal FFS Owen Farrell was rugbys face in the beats advert featuring stars like Serena Williams and Lebron James, i would say that 0.001% of america's population could name more than 3 pro rugby players currently and 0.0001% could name a NH player.

    Why do you think Georgia could succeed but the USA couldn't? That makes no sense. Georgia is also far away, in Asia, they speak a different language, they have a small population and its a very poor country.

    I agree about Romania. They would be in a good position to set up a team but they've a new league of their own that they might not want to mess with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by profitius View Post
    Why do you think Georgia could succeed but the USA couldn't? That makes no sense. Georgia is also far away, in Asia, they speak a different language, they have a small population and its a very poor country.

    I agree about Romania. They would be in a good position to set up a team but they've a new league of their own that they might not want to mess with.
    Are you actually being serious about Georgia?


    Firstly rugby is a big sport in Georgia, Rugby as a sport is not even a dot in America It is tiny as said how many Americans could actually name one rugby player and how many know the rules or even know that league and union is 2 different sports and that union has two separate codes.

    Georgia also has far better players than the USA esp in the key areas like front row.

    Yes it poor I suppose, but I bet you would get better crowd attendance at a Georgia franchise than a USA one honestly wouldn't be surprised if a is pro 12 team attendance in America is on par with Italian teams after a season esp if they don't get a strong team going and get thrashed regularly.

    Re about location and language Georgia is already in the challenge cup and plays in the European league below six nations so don't see your point at all.

    money could be an issue but last I heard Georgia rugby had a pretty big backer.

    Let's face it Georgia should be in the six nations IMO.


    (America rugby problems stems a lot from the top in Blazers not knowing or doing anything to expand rugby more in the last decade).
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  14. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigs Man View Post
    Are you actually being serious about Georgia?


    Firstly rugby is a big sport in Georgia, Rugby as a sport is not even a dot in America It is tiny as said how many Americans could actually name one rugby player and how many know the rules or even know that league and union is 2 different sports and that union has two separate codes.

    Georgia also has far better players than the USA esp in the key areas like front row.

    Yes it poor I suppose, but I bet you would get better crowd attendance at a Georgia franchise than a USA one honestly wouldn't be surprised if a is pro 12 team attendance in America is on par with Italian teams after a season esp if they don't get a strong team going and get thrashed regularly.

    Re about location and language Georgia is already in the challenge cup and plays in the European league below six nations so don't see your point at all.

    money could be an issue but last I heard Georgia rugby had a pretty big backer.

    Let's face it Georgia should be in the six nations IMO.


    (America rugby problems stems a lot from the top in Blazers not knowing or doing anything to expand rugby more in the last decade).

    Theres not much between the USA and Georgia at the moment in terms of on pitch ability but in terms of setting up a franchise, the USA has far more resources. So why would it be easier to set up a team in Georgia?

    By "English speaking" I ment culturally the US is closer to us than Georgians are.

    Georgia has a backer but there are literally millions of millionaires in the US. They have load sport broadcasters that have plenty of cash as well as the business sector that could sponsor a team.

    The one thing I'd agree with is there would be bigger crowds in Georgia, starting off at least.

    I'm just puzzled why people say the Pro12 should be looking towards Georgia and not the USA / Canada.
    Last edited by profitius; 22-12-16 at 02:41 PM.

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    Georgia has loads more on pitch talent and ability currently than the US the rankings prove it.

    Culturally why is Italy in it?

    Yes there is literally loads of millionaires in America but how many like rugby and how many are like Doug?

    And why would any sports board aster in America pay loads for Pro12 rugby? It clashes with NHL, NFL and NBA aswell as the major college sports and European football leagues and it is in a crappy time slot whoever buys it will be on a bargain deal much like the AP deal similar reason why I can't see a major sponsorship deal happening.

    Rugby hasn't got a draw player like Lomu currently esp in the NH, they isn't a messy or Ronaldo.



    I think you are overestimating the money America could bring in for the pro 12, or the market. I just don't see the potential in a us pro 12 franchise and feel it would be a waste of time I'm not saying Georgia is the answer but maybe they should prob be looking at the European market more than American market such as Spain or trying to develop in Germany and Netehrlands.
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  16. #95
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    Romania, Georgia, Spain would be more obvious choices for the Pro 12 than the US due to their location. Maybe also here in Germany, they did sign a deal with DAZN after all which promote their rugby quite nicely. Time zones wouldn't be a problem for those countries or not as much, travelling would be cheaper.
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  17. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce_ma_goose View Post
    I'm not sure World Rugby gave a whole lot of support to PRO Rugby. Brett Gosper came out a few months back welcoming the prospect of Pro12 or Super Rugby getting involved in North American rugby. As said by Tigs Man above it's just all very amateurish all round.

    Still, Sunwolves might get Yamada now!
    Not specifically to PRO Rugby but to North American nations, yet they fail to achieve anything noticeable yet; in fact, compared with the past, as results, it looks like both are regressing, I remember much better matches to RWC from Canada and USA. Romania is in the same situation, any improvement is only apparent compared with 90s or 2000s.

    I don't see any problem if Gosper welcomed SR or Pro12 North American potential franchises, I don't think this can conflict with Pro Rugby, in fact can work along with it in the same way ITM, Currie Cup, Argentinean or Japanese local competitions works with SR. I think it'd be too much to ask from WR to involved in internal competitions...however in what concerns test level, WR was supporting them much better than any other T2.

    Mistakes and set backs are inherent with a new competition, so even if it was somehow amateurish I had hopes it will succeed...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigs Man View Post
    Are you actually being serious about Georgia?


    Firstly rugby is a big sport in Georgia, Rugby as a sport is not even a dot in America It is tiny as said how many Americans could actually name one rugby player and how many know the rules or even know that league and union is 2 different sports and that union has two separate codes.

    Georgia also has far better players than the USA esp in the key areas like front row.

    Yes it poor I suppose, but I bet you would get better crowd attendance at a Georgia franchise than a USA one honestly wouldn't be surprised if a is pro 12 team attendance in America is on par with Italian teams after a season esp if they don't get a strong team going and get thrashed regularly.

    Re about location and language Georgia is already in the challenge cup and plays in the European league below six nations so don't see your point at all.

    money could be an issue but last I heard Georgia rugby had a pretty big backer.

    Let's face it Georgia should be in the six nations IMO.

    (America rugby problems stems a lot from the top in Blazers not knowing or doing anything to expand rugby more in the last decade).
    I think you have some facts wrong about Georgia I know, there's a lot of propaganda on internet but not all of it is good.


    Georgia isn't in the Challenge Cup, I think this is the first year when they'll put a club into the qualifying competition. They only used a selection from internal champioship Didi 10 two years ago and failed to qualify after loosing both matches to Rovigo.


    Internal competition is amateur, quite weak and rugby, despite growing popularity is not the first sport of the country, it's still football.


    Until place 17-18 in rankings, most teams have good and bad areas. USA/Canada/Islanders fails to management, a part at which Georgia shines. I know you're probably impressed about 3 wins vs Islanders but mind you, Samoa and Fiji fielded experimental teams while Lelos were full squad. Tonga win was however a big one.


    With crowds is tricky, they pay peanuts or not pay at all when Lelos play home and have an important match.


    Where they shine is the junior system who manage to send a lot of forwards especially in France and lately even some very talented backs although, sadly for them, backs who were excellent at Junior World Cup or other competitions failed to find a contract in France and their development stagnated and they will probably won't reach their potential without a chance in West.


    At this moment Georgia does not have the strength, value and especially depth to compete in 6N, with an injury in the backs they won't have a replacement who plays at the same level and we've seen the backs from internal championship cannot cope even with Japanese ones. While it would be awesome for them to be in 6N, this could hinder long term development as every match would be about result and young guns will have hard time getting in. And let's face it, nobody will open that door anytime soon. I don't think they're anywhere near 6N level. Only team in T2 that could cope is Japan. Fiji could be at that level with a better organisation but they're heavily dependent on foreign clubs to release players. None of this team is geographically suited for 6N, I just mentioned them as example of T2 squads that are around 6N level. Georgia isn't by far.


    I do think a Pro12 franchise would be much more beneficial for them long term considering they have talented young players who are not exposed to pro rugby level and such team could create more chemistry for national squad players while will allow younger players to be trained and gradually introduced at a much better level than Didi10 or even Fed3 (if they're lucky to sign as backs); This is their main issue now, creating depth. While a Challenge Cup team may help, it's too little I think and as far as I know it's unlikely that EPRC or Qualifying competition will accept franchises / select teams and not regular clubs. Russians seem to be an exception because they're allowed to transfer players from internal competition on purpose for European cups...which kind of meh but hey what to expect from them.

    Since the discussion derailed a bit, maybe a T2 General talk thread would be good

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    Yeh I could see the pro rugby working with pro12 or super rugby as they don't clash.

    BUT why would someone pump in that much money just to be the second division of Rugby? That sounds like something USA rugby would have to really find and can't see that happening.

    Yeh creating a general talk thread on T2 would be good IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigs Man View Post
    BUT why would someone pump in that much money just to be the second division of Rugby? That sounds like something USA rugby would have to really find and can't see that happening.
    There isn't any SR / PRO12 serious chance in on medium term so I can't see how PRO Rugby could be considered a second division?

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    Quote Originally Posted by amz View Post
    There isn't any SR / PRO12 serious chance in on medium term so I can't see how PRO Rugby could be considered a second division?
    That's where the exclusivity discussion comes into play. If some other competition like p12 or SR comes into the state's. What happens to pro's value? At the moment there is (was) only Schroedinger investing, but if other guys come in that would cause some issues.

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    Is there any real possibility to join SR or Pro12? I fear not, which makes their concern about exclusivity and stuff quite hilarious. Why did they started anyway if there was anothe prospect to join another competition?

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