[RWC2023 QF4] France vs South Africa (15/10/2023)

[unrated]

@Cruz_del_Sur please can you link me to that post you made about how the NH always gets riled up before WC but then they go through a kinda cycle etc etc. I would like to go like that post now.

 

[Horacito]

The problem with the cospiracy theories is that they rely almost entirely on Ben O'Keefe actually wanting SA to win.

The most likely explanation is that SA has a referee analyst, they just knew how to work O'Keefe and it gave results

 

[Glassjaw]

Are you sure of that ? I'm unsure there if it is the rule. Lets say that if Etzebeth dive with one hand and push clearly the ball backward on the ground, it should have been penalised ? if you have the precise rule, I would be interested. The thing I'm 100% sure of is that he was not in position to control the ball with his 2 hands hence why it would be important to understand then if he has the right to bring backward with one hand...I think he can and that your statement is not correct.

After checking I'm probably wrong about the control of the ball. I'll watch it again to see if it was backwards or not.

 

[OwenPB]

The laws state a player can attempt a charge down as soon as the kicker makes any movement towards the ball, the exception being if the ball has fallen over and they are moving to correct it.

That's wrong, there is nothing in the law that states a player needs to be in control of the ball if he knocks it backwards. If Etzebeth stuck his hand out and the ball goes backwards, it's completely legal. It looked very much like it went forwards though, in which case then he does need to control the ball, which he clearly didn't.

And I think the most important point on both of these incidents is that we can look at them at the time they occured in the match and see if Kolbe was or wasn't off, if Etzebeth did or didn't knock it forward. Choosing not to TMO them is the biggest issue for me.

 

[BrokenWing]

The problem with the cospiracy theories is that they rely almost entirely on Ben O'Keefe actually wanting SA to win.

The most likely explanation is that SA has a referee analyst, they just knew how to work O'Keefe and it gave results

I don't think any referee is corrupt. Some are incompetent, and most are just human.

So much stuff goes on around certain parts of the game that it's impossible for the team of officials let alone the referee to keep tabs on everything that goes on and still maintain a game that doesn't stop every few seconds for an infringement.

As you rightly say, good teams will know the referee and play to that.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

And I think the most important point on both of these incidents is that we can look at them at the time they occured in the match and see if Kolbe was or wasn't off, if Etzebeth did or didn't knock it forward. Choosing not to TMO them is the biggest issue for me.

I agree, there really is no excuse for not checking, especially with Etzebeth. It was not clear and obvious the ball went backwards in a try saving chance and the fact he didn't even bother to check is laughable. A penalty try and card were on the line for an incident where the outcome was not obvious at all. If it later turns out Etzebeth knocked it on, BoK is going to get a grilling.

 

[BrokenWing]

Isn't the referee relying on the TMO coming back to him on those occasions rather than him going to the TMO?

Keep the game flowing and rely on your team of officials to help you out?

 

[Atmavictu]

The problem with the cospiracy theories is that they rely almost entirely on Ben O'Keefe actually wanting SA to win.

The most likely explanation is that SA has a referee analyst, they just knew how to work O'Keefe and it gave results

Yeah I am sure France does not do a referee analyst, it is probably something invented by a smart Argentinian...

 

[Atmavictu]

I agree, there really is no excuse for not checking, especially with Etzebeth. It was not clear and obvious the ball went backwards in a try saving chance and the fact he didn't even bother to check is laughable. A penalty try and card were on the line for an incident where the outcome was not obvious at all. If it later turns out Etzebeth knocked it on, BoK is going to get a grilling.

That was the crucial decision of the game, 14-0 with a man up and you have yourself a different game all together

I think he wanted show he was not intimidated by the crowd and home team and as a result he clearly favored SA. Refs do that all time to show they have personality. I personally think he has always been a modest ref who put his ego in front of everything.

 

[Glassjaw]

The problem with the cospiracy theories is that they rely almost entirely on Ben O'Keefe actually wanting SA to win.

The most likely explanation is that SA has a referee analyst, they just knew how to work O'Keefe and it gave results

Yes sure...
France have Jérôme Garces in his staff(referee from the last rugby world cup final).

 

[LIONSxv]

Some observations as a neutral (however will always want NH to do well). I think France will come again and be in a great place next WC. Looking at that first choice XV I can see three starters will need replacing in Olivon, Williamse and Antonio on the basis of age. That's a great position to be in at this stage.
France played high intensity, mainly accurate rugby. They did kick a little bit too much.
I thought the ref was ok, he got the KS pen wrong. But to even up he didn't review Baille second try which was 50/50 for me

If I were France I would be looking for a better scrummaging props. Baile is a great player in the loose but is not the strongest in the scrum. Same with the replacements

This might be unpopular but I think that back row needs an out and out 7. I've thought it for some time. In 90% of the games France play that back row will out muscle teams. However when it's matched and as the teams intensity faded with fatigue. A genuine 7 could of earnt a few pens at the breakdown or stopped SA at the breakdown

 

[Wichita]

The laws state a player can attempt a charge down as soon as the kicker makes any movement towards the ball, the exception being if the ball has fallen over and they are moving to correct it.



That's wrong, there is nothing in the law that states a player needs to be in control of the ball if he knocks it backwards. If Etzebeth stuck his hand out and the ball goes backwards, it's completely legal. It looked very much like it went forwards though, in which case then he does need to control the ball, which he clearly didn't.

Isn't the referee relying on the TMO coming back to him on those occasions rather than him going to the TMO?

Keep the game flowing and rely on your team of officials to help you out?

About the TMO yesterday, just for fun, sorry no subtitles

VAR (Assistance vidéo à l'arbitrage) - Culture Pub

Quand Burger King influe beaucoup trop sur l’arbitrage vidéo…

www.culturepub.fr

 

[LIONSxv]

And I think the most important point on both of these incidents is that we can look at them at the time they occured in the match and see if Kolbe was or wasn't off, if Etzebeth did or didn't knock it forward. Choosing not to TMO them is the biggest issue for me.

He didn't review Baile try either. The replays showed no clear grounding and it also appeared to be held up in the phase before which would of been a drop out

 

[dirty harry]

Incredibly sad that such a high quality game is being overshadowed by ref talk again.

Its blighted this RWC from the first few games onwards. Tier 2 teams being undone by poor decision making, or tendancies that bias their favour.

I'd put Toeafafina's non card for the forearm smash to the head against Uraguay in that list (tongue in cheek ish), uraguay really were robbed of being competitive with France in that game for a run of bad decisions, similarly to how this game ended with an inexplicable run of decisions in favour of SA.

Law book needs to be looked at, with the change in player safety ethos has seen the standard of officiating drop like a stone in a lake!

 

[Horacito]

Yes sure...
France have Jérôme Garces in his staff(referee from the last rugby world cup).

Jérome Garces expelled a player in a pro rugby game for making a tackle

I still remember that Bismarck Du Plessis incident...

You know, my point is that bokkes are good at this kind of thing (playing with the ref), mostly because Rassie is just absolutely mad, and that I've been at the sh*t end of the stick many times (once the overturned a try from us agains NZ because... you can't score against new zealand in NZ!), the incompetence of the refs hurts the sport more than anything, because we all look like a joke, like a banana republic sport.

 

[BrokenWing]

For me Kolbe is never behind the line.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Thats discussable, all players have some form of movement a bit before that go for the kicking, then a movement of head could be taken as a signal as well for example, what is the limit ?? Clearly that was not the start of the run phase of Ramos. And whatever interpretation we can have on it now, there should have been a clear check on the video, the impression again is that there was no will to check things more from ref team on rather important and defining moments yesterday evening

Interestingly I cannot find a law saying a penalty can be charged down, just a free kick. Maybe it's an omission in the wording that is not followed in practice but the text says:
"As soon as the kicker initiates movement to kick, the opposing team may charge and try to prevent the free-kick being taken by tackling the kicker or to block the kick."

World Rugby Passport - Laws by number

www.world.rugby

It does not say "begins their run" but any movement to kick. Ramos' first steps before he ran were the beginning of his movement to initiate the kick.

 

[Wichita]

After checking I'm probably wrong about the control of the ball. I'll watch it again to see if it was backwards or not.

Interestingly I cannot find a law saying a penalty can be charged down, just a free kick. Maybe it's an omission in the wording that is not followed in practice but the text says:
"As soon as the kicker initiates movement to kick, the opposing team may charge and try to prevent the free-kick being taken by tackling the kicker or to block the kick."

World Rugby Passport - Laws by number

www.world.rugby

It does not say "begins their run" but any movement to kick. Ramos' first steps before he ran were the beginning of his movement to initiate the kick.

Farrell makes 237 movements and Wilkinson used to make 453 movements before they initiate their kicks
Not counting the eyes and the flapping...

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

@Cruz_del_Sur please can you link me to that post you made about how the NH always gets riled up before WC but then they go through a kinda cycle etc etc. I would like to go like that post now.

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask Cruz, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

I've been watching the TRC and the 6N since way before Arg was part of it (hence no skin in the game). For this exercise I am going to pretend Arg is not part of the competition for a sec. With that in mind, to this day it is mind-boggling to me how some people feel the need to explain how the TRC is at par with the 6N. 8 to 1 world cups and the last time a 6N team won was 20 years ago. Let me say that again: 20-years-ago.
Australia, arguably the weakest of the 3 could roast any and all of the 6Ns. Hell, they could roast all of the 6N combined. They do have more WCs than all of them!

I have to say thou, i do see a trend. A very specific exacerbation appears to arise regularly and consistently. Not sure if it's related to some obscure lunar cycle or related to some unknown cosmic force; but it happens and it works like clockwork... Every 4 years, a couple of weeks or a month before a WC begins, a lot of the 6N seem to be possessed by this feeling, this delusional sentiment that tells them they can actually win the thing! It's amazing to watch. And for some reason, they do not appear to have adaptive expectations. They make the same mistake over, and over and over again. Fortunately, it appears to be only a temporary glitch as it rarely lasts longer than two months. After that, it's as if they come back to their senses or something and recognize which competition stands taller. Some desperate souls will retreat to club rugby at that point, resorting to delusional claims like 'the premiership and the top 14 are stronger comps than SR', knowing full well that those teams will never have to face each other. It's an interesting recourse tho. Mainly because of the desperation it entails.

They also tend to disregard the past, learnings, and history. 'This time will be different', 'we've got a great team this year' or 'the WC is being held in the NH'. Many claim that some NH sides have reached the WC at their peak this time and SH sides arent particularly strong this year. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Game on.

 

[Batsumy]

Isn't the referee relying on the TMO coming back to him on those occasions rather than him going to the TMO?

Keep the game flowing and rely on your team of officials to help you out?

If I'm not wrong, thats l'Equipe who is saying this, the TMO mentioned a deliberate knock on for Etzebeth to BOK but him just put that under the carpet...

As some of you are saying, this is the most contentious decision and there is clearly a bias to not have checked this more clearly. Again, I'm not confident in BOK and his NZ teammate TMO, I think they had a clear bias against france yesterday evening. France did make some few mistakes but the impression is that France would have had to make a more than perfect performance to go through

And it is sad it comes down to ref decision but enough is enough, always the same story, I know we should not talk about refering, that we cannot do much about it but when there are clear and obvious **** up, it is important to mention