Wales Six Nations Squad 2025

[Welsh Exile]

Scanned that, and I side with Gatland.

No point sugar coating it, what real input can players like Winnet, Dyer, Botham offer someone like Warren Gatland? They havnt won many games between them, let alone silverware.

Same can be said of the number crunchers and pen pushers. With the greatest of respect, but I wouldn't take the opinion of Abi Tierney on board, not over my own, or even my missus opinions (who has played international rugby).

I keep referring back to working with Townsend, but that was a real eye opener as to how clueless the average fan is, he has 100% to do everything I thought he would, and may well go down as Scotlands greatest coach (in certain aspects).

So I work in the third sector, and all the range now is including the service user in every aspect of decision making. So, I used some uni students, conducted a focus group using homeless service users, and discussed the barriers to enterprise services, and used their experience of hostel living to make improvements.

The top 3 barriers to services?

- Staff are grass, see you next tuesdays.
- Police are pigs
- Noone ever actually helps

Top 3 answers to improving living conditions?

- PS 5s for every room
- Cannabis should be allowed
- Hostels should be segregated by sex

So as you see, those involved in an industry, are not necessarily those whose ideas you should consider fully, context is king.

So basically Gatland is always right, do as you're told and don't anyone dare question anything he does because they don't understand or aren't worthy. I said at the time he was channelling his inner Trump.

As I say, if you’re a senior manager, a massively underperforming one I might add, and your bosses conduct a review via a third party and you came out with those comments about not only the colleagues that work under you, but the review itself, you'd likely be fired in a high pressured job in the city for example.

Having said all that it's hard to say without knowing what was said and a million other things but the thing that surprised me most about it was that he was talking about it in public. As Foxy said keep it in house but he obviously is pretty ****** off about it.

 

[AlRums]

I keep referring back to working with Townsend, but that was a real eye opener as to how clueless the average fan is, he has 100% to do everything I thought he would, and may well go down as Scotlands greatest coach (in certain aspects).

Townsend has the highest Scotland coach win percentage of the professional age. Not bad considering Ireland and France dominance the last few years.

 

[Booboobang]

Scanned that, and I side with Gatland.

No point sugar coating it, what real input can players like Winnet, Dyer, Botham offer someone like Warren Gatland? They havnt won many games between them, let alone silverware.

Same can be said of the number crunchers and pen pushers. With the greatest of respect, but I wouldn't take the opinion of Abi Tierney on board, not over my own, or even my missus opinions (who has played international rugby).

I keep referring back to working with Townsend, but that was a real eye opener as to how clueless the average fan is, he has 100% to do everything I thought he would, and may well go down as Scotlands greatest coach (in certain aspects).

So I work in the third sector, and all the range now is including the service user in every aspect of decision making. So, I used some uni students, conducted a focus group using homeless service users, and discussed the barriers to enterprise services, and used their experience of hostel living to make improvements.

The top 3 barriers to services?

- Staff are grass, see you next tuesdays.
- Police are pigs
- Noone ever actually helps

Top 3 answers to improving living conditions?

- PS 5s for every room
- Cannabis should be allowed
- Hostels should be segregated by sex

So as you see, those involved in an industry, are not necessarily those whose ideas you should consider fully, context is king.

Not really sure how you can think this response is actually good tbh.

Number 1 even if everyone knows that playerpool is **** surely the coach who is meant to be instilling confidence shouldnt be saying it, he is part of that lack of a winning enviroment, he is coaching it. You can think something, and not openly degrade those you are trying to inspire.

Number 2, somewhat linked to number 1, there is acomplete void in self awareness, he bombed out of the chiefs, has been ******** the bed and hasnt coached sustainable winning rugby for going on 6 years at this point, when you are consisstently not good at your job, or are atleast not getting results it is maybe at that point you need feedback into what you are doing wrong, you refer to townsend and coaches as an appeal to authority as if they are infalable, just not true, one of townsends biggest strengths has actually been in resolving issues he has had with players not dictating to them that they are god awful and are a bunch of losers who can offer him nothing.

In gatlands case if anything he is a man in desperate need of a self review as his methods no longer work, not with the lions, not with the chiefs who drastically improved with the same player pool after he left, and sure as hell not with wales now. We can refer to townsend here again, since november what have both coaches been doing, what has their output been? Townsend has been coaching scotlands development system and the emerging scotland team to improve the player pool, talking about how exciting these players are for the future.... Gatland has complained about his player pool said they dont know how to win and that they shouldnt be reviewing him a man who has done a whole lot of losing for half a decade, maybe he could take on board and try and improve? Maybe he could improve his coaching team? Hell maybe he could actually get of his arse and go and do some clinics or coaching age grade players like townsend has been to try and help solve the problem long term

Currently Gatland is a old man, who cant communicate with young players, who doesnt get results, and does nothign for the nations rugby between windows despite taking a huge pay packet to improve rugby in the country. It could literally not get worse. If it was gatland of a decade ago saying it? I would get it, but now? He is just as big a loser, wins that long ago mean nothing after sustained losing.

 

[dirty harry]

Not really sure how you can think this response is actually good tbh.

Number 1 even if everyone knows that playerpool is **** surely the coach who is meant to be instilling confidence shouldnt be saying it, he is part of that lack of a winning enviroment, he is coaching it. You can think something, and not openly degrade those you are trying to inspire.

Number 2, somewhat linked to number 1, there is acomplete void in self awareness, he bombed out of the chiefs, has been ******** the bed and hasnt coached sustainable winning rugby for going on 6 years at this point, when you are consisstently not good at your job, or are atleast not getting results it is maybe at that point you need feedback into what you are doing wrong, you refer to townsend and coaches as an appeal to authority as if they are infalable, just not true, one of townsends biggest strengths has actually been in resolving issues he has had with players not dictating to them that they are god awful and are a bunch of losers who can offer him nothing.

In gatlands case if anything he is a man in desperate need of a self review as his methods no longer work, not with the lions, not with the chiefs who drastically improved with the same player pool after he left, and sure as hell not with wales now. We can refer to townsend here again, since november what have both coaches been doing, what has their output been? Townsend has been coaching scotlands development system and the emerging scotland team to improve the player pool, talking about how exciting these players are for the future.... Gatland has complained about his player pool said they dont know how to win and that they shouldnt be reviewing him a man who has done a whole lot of losing for half a decade, maybe he could take on board and try and improve? Maybe he could improve his coaching team? Hell maybe he could actually get of his arse and go and do some clinics or coaching age grade players like townsend has been to try and help solve the problem long term

Currently Gatland is a old man, who cant communicate with young players, who doesnt get results, and does nothign for the nations rugby between windows despite taking a huge pay packet to improve rugby in the country. It could literally not get worse. If it was gatland of a decade ago saying it? I would get it, but now? He is just as big a loser, wins that long ago mean nothing after sustained losing.

I always find it interesting how people judge Gatlands time at the cheifs, without considering anything that happened at his time at the chiefs, what players, back room staff, and head honchos at the chiefs say, or the conditions of his tenure, and the preceding time after he left for the lions...

1. He won 4 from 5 games i think his record was before Covid shut the game down. After covid he went on that 8 game losing, against 100% kiwi sides and losing narrowly 5/6 times. It was widely acknowledged at the time the chiefs had a weak squad, specifically the tight 5.
Gatland Debut'd a lot of players, I think maybe 8 or 9 that season, all butn1 have returned and got better the next season.
Ironically 2021 Gatland jr joind Chiefs and did well at 10, helping theb10 issues Trask and Cruden non Cruden had caused.

2. Gatland presided over a virtually all derby season, Mcmillon won 4 of his games against really poor Aus sides.
In fact Mcmillons record v Kiwi teams was 5 and 5.

3. Players, coaching staff, board and fans all praised Gatlands work and credited him for laying foundations behind the scene. Gatland had 3 international players in that Chiefs squad, that double to 6 by 2021, and Gatland was given credit for the player development and squad depth that markedly increased that season.

In fact I think it was Graafhuis who made a statement and likened Gatlands season to the famously failure season of Graham Henry with Wales 2004.

So just to confirm, I'm agreeing Gatland should probably leave, it's time to move up or move on, and I agree he may isn't infalable, however what I am saying is you nor I have no idea what's going on behind the scenes, and most criticism of Gatland is stupidity.

His words are harsh but exactly what everyone is saying, our development pathway has left us with the weakest welsh squad certainly in the last 20 odd years, maybe even further and rivals the dross of the 90s.

You don't heal wounds by popping making up on them and telling them they look pretty, you cut dead flesh away. If now isnt the time for tough talk and hard truths I don't know when is.

To truly judge Gatland we have to consider what he reinserted, what he's done from a results position, but also a player development standing, and what the conditions are he's endured.

Results have been poor, but I don't think any other coach in world rugby could have done any better, with the over the hill squad inherited, and lack of deloped Jr's behind them.
Since his first game of 2023 4 of the starting pack retired soon after, 1 has been injured since. Come 31st Jan, the welsh pack will be half the age, it was in 2023, and be unrecognisable from 2 years ago, with maybe Gareth Thomas the only regular. Which other int team has 7 new forwards starters and is successful? Similarly 5 of the backline from 2023 have retired, 1 has been injured extensively. Tomos William's might be the only survivor (maybe Liam Williams too).

Think of the players who have been forced to start last season, in replacement of what we all agree have been legends of the game...

Evan Lloyd > Ken owens
Daf Jenkins > AWJ
Alex Mann > Wainright
Costelow > Biggar
Murray > North
Winnet > William's

How does any coach win games, when replacing genuine world class talent with kids who have barely played, let alone won a game of pro rugby 2-3 years later?

If you even compare man for man us vs Italy last season, they are easily the better team, I'd argue that maybe Gareth Thomas, Wainright and Tomos William's get into the Ital lineup, every other position they have us dead to rights.

He's also had to endure the WRU and it's never ending cycle of nonsense, player pay row, women's pay row, players threatening to strike, a sexism row, appointing non rugby head amongst a sexism row because she's a woman and fits some criteria, the TWC proved difficult on coach agenda (Ask Borthwick), the region debacle, the financial issues etc... he's only been here 2 years and dealt with maybe 4 major issues outside of his control, before we mention player drain, and difficulties with young players being lost to english educational opportunities, or larger contracts Wabo, Hawkins, LRZ...

So the question is, is Gatland losing games, but building a foundation and player base to compete in the future, like he did previously with us, and how he did at Chiefs?

The average age is lower obviously, and without some selections like smith, Willgriff, Parry, Falatau, William's, Rhodri, Adams and Rowlands who realistically all could have not been selected, the squad is rebuilding and giving experience to younger players.
A few players have kicked on in the last 2 years, but realistically, the young players coming through don't seem to have high ceilings, and Gatland is forced to pick clubman, and younger players hoping they have something more.

Winnet and Evan Lloyd are great examples of a desperate coach selecting young players because there is nothing else to select. Lloyds selection over Belcher says it all.

So in 2023 I gave Gatland a B, he built to what could have been an Aus level disaster RWC, losing key players in the summer etc, and managed a quarter final thrown away by Costelows introduction to the game.

2024 I gave Gatland a C+. Difficult rebuild, lots of young players, lots of off field stupidity.

I think winning 1 game this 6N is a step in the right direction, we need to see a few players kick on, Assirati needs to prove he can play at int level, Morgan and Jenkins need to kick on and lead, Tomos needs to become a leader also, we need to establish a long term regular back 3 combo, find a TH and 10 from anywhere, and finally replace Jon Davies at 13.

If we head towards all those things, this season will be a huge success, with or without the win.

At this stage, I'd just like to see us impose a game plan on opposition, and execute the basics, which is a real frustration of mine with welsh rugby in general. The amount of set peice ball all regions and Wales fluff is maddening!

So ye, Gats isn't doing a bad job, it's just most people don't understand what his job is currently, it should be winning games, but it can't be when you don't have the ability to compete, and you are having to select kids with a small number of pro appearances, Gatlands rebuild is deeper than any tier 1 nation I've ever seen, he's almost having to coach skills that most nations have installed by u20s.

 

[dirty harry]

Sorry for thebrant lol

 

[dullonien]

Starting with the Chiefs, we've had NZ/chiefs fans on here categorically stating that he was an unmitigated disaster during his time there. He may have blooded players, and put in some of the foundations for the future, but what was clear for me was that their style of play during his time at the club was ponderous, turgid, and outdated, much like it was on the Lions tour to SA, and now with Wales.

Onto Wales, I don't dispute that Gatland has endured a difficult time, with a rebuild necessary with a lack of quality/experience in many positions + the continuous issues surrounding the WRU and regions.

Would another coach magic new players for nowhere? Of course not, but I'd expect the right coach could get more out of what we have, with a style of play that better suits the current squad, and a backroom coaching team who deserve their places.

It's also worth noting that although Wales' squad is young (based on players used in 2024, their average age is just under 26), this is very similar to Aus, and Italy is even slightly younger! So it's a valid excuse when playing against the likes of SA (average age of around 29.5) or Ireland (28.5), but we can't really use that excuse against Italy.

Edit. Rant away lol. If now isn't the time for ranting, then I don't know when is!

 

[Welsh Exile]

The idea that Gatland is getting the most out of what he has available to him and that no other coach in the world could possibly do any better is laughable to me, sorry mate.

 

[dirty harry]

Starting with the Chiefs, we've had NZ/chiefs fans on here categorically stating that he was an unmitigated disaster during his time there. He may have blooded players, and put in some of the foundations for the future, but what was clear for me was that their style of play during his time at the club was ponderous, turgid, and outdated, much like it was on the Lions tour to SA, and now with Wales.

Onto Wales, I don't dispute that Gatland has endured a difficult time, with a rebuild necessary with a lack of quality/experience in many positions + the continuous issues surrounding the WRU and regions.

Would another coach magic new players for nowhere? Of course not, but I'd expect the right coach could get more out of what we have, with a style of play that better suits the current squad, and a backroom coaching team who deserve their places.

It's also worth noting that although Wales' squad is young (based on players used in 2024, their average age is just under 26), this is very similar to Aus, and Italy is even slightly younger! So it's a valid excuse when playing against the likes of SA (average age of around 29.5) or Ireland (28.5), but we can't really use that excuse against Italy.

Edit. Rant away lol. If now isn't the time for ranting, then I don't know when is!

Hahaha I gey your point, but again my pointbis the fans know very little, they are to be placated and pandered to to keep them onside, but they really are ignorant of the processes of pro rugby, and the goings on in camps.

Regarding the age issue, I see what your saying, but it isn't that simple. It's not that we have a young squad, it's just that we have a massive chasm of talent in the peak age ranges...

Look at Lloyd, Mee, Winnet, Murray, James and Co, they make up halfnthebsquad, then there are 8 players the wrong side of 33/34, in Parry, Falatau, Thomas, Rowlands etc...

The issue isn't age specifically, it's the lack of experience and quality of player, and the desperation in selection.

I mean there are some really sad selections let's be honest, Rhodri William's at 31, he isn't realistically going to make many appearances, or the 2027 RWC, his selection is based on how bad the alternatives are, Hardy, RMW, Davies, and Davies are all poor.

Ben Thomas, he's a clubman, a decent ball player and decent kicker, but ultimately he is average at club level, see his poor showing last night at10. Missed touch, kicked out of hand poorly, misses anything at goal wider than 15m channel, defends poorly etc.

Then there's the sad desperation of selections in Sam Parry, Willgriff, Thomas all selected because of lack of depth.
Adam's, Falatau, Rowlands all selected on name and prayers they can regain form.
Mee, Murray, Lloyd, Tsiunza all selected on a prayer that their potential can somehow realise in camp.

For me, national selection should be about earning that spot, playing well and forcing a selection. It creates a different atmosphere, because players know they aren't first choice, they know where they are in club, league and int pecking order. Parry knows he's 4th choice, Evan Lloyd knows his club captain is a better hooker than him, Thomas and Willgriff know they are average club players...

For me, the only selections that were earnt properly, and can bring some energy and positivity are:

Tommy Reffell - performance week in week out
Freddie Thomas - super this season
Gareth Thomas - shining light of Ospreys pack
Wainright - enough said
Teddy Williams - resurgent form this season
Dan Edward's- knocked on the door all year
Hathaway - great development this year
Owen Watkin - Mr reliable
Tomos - doing Tomos things behind a decent pack
Max Llewellyn - not selected I know but really kickingnon currently.

So 8 selected players, on form, playing well making a statement. The rest of the squad seems like development contracts and filler (with the greatest of respect).

We could have a coaching team, of the greatest ever, and the results would still not come.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Gatland is the best coach in the world.

 

[dirty harry]

The idea that Gatland is getting the most out of what he has available to him and that no other coach in the world could possibly do any better is laughable to me, sorry mate.

Which could could turn this squad, who if we compared every individual in every position would rank 5th or 6th out of 6 in most positions, into a championship contending team?

Let's have a try though, let's take TH prop...

1.Antonio
2.Furlong/Bealham
3.Stewart
4.Fagerson
5.Riccioni
6. Assiratti

We could do this for every position, and I'd argue our best 3 players in Gareth Thomas, Wainright and Tomos would maybe ranked 3rd against their opposite numbers.

Even sadder still, is the amount of difference in quality.

I know individual players don't equal results, but when 15 French men, or 15 English men turn out and in every aspect outweigh, out muscle out skill, and out experience their welsh counterpart, what exactly can any coach do?

None of the 4 regions have stable set peices, lineouts are trash throughout, scrums go backwards against most teams, giving them no platform, how does an int coach rectify that at the highest level?

When not one welshman can kick a ball 40m plus, Costelow, Lloyd, Thomas, Owen Williams, Cai Evans, Sheedy, Jarod, etc they miss touch regularly, miss goal regularly, and pretty much all of them (Owen aside) are speed bumps in defence at club level, how does an international coach rectify that?

When your pack is lighter at an average 7kg per man, and your facing props are lighter than their opposing by 20+ kilos, how do you rectify that?
Assiratti is 119kg, Antonio 145kg, Furlong and Fagerson 125kg, riccioni 126kg, Stewart 132kg. I know weight isn't everything, but it contributes to the issue, weight, skill, experience, speed, in every category we are lacking behind.
Just look at the stats on any player vs welsh player, caps, win rate, any skill execution %, size, power, athletic ability, even club performance.

Look at the u20s, 9 years ago we won the tournament, it's been average 5th place finishes since, the players who won the tournament has mostly failed to push on beyond clubman, Watkins and Beard arguably.

The truth is we don't have the players, they aren't there, and the ones coming through don't look like world beaters, the WRU have put us in a position where we are a cusp tier 2 nation performance wise, Gatland is the least of our troubles.

 

[dirty harry]

Gatland is the best coach in the world.

You know I'm not saying that lol.

But his performance with Wales can't be based on results, given how bad the squad are, how bad at running the sport his bosses are, and how the sport is dying in Wales.

I do agree we need a change, especially in back room staff, but I'd also advocate for lining up everyone involved with the WRU in a strategy decision making position since it's inception is lined up against a wall...

 

[dullonien]

Hahaha I gey your point, but again my pointbis the fans know very little, they are to be placated and pandered to to keep them onside, but they really are ignorant of the processes of pro rugby, and the goings on in camps.

Regarding the age issue, I see what your saying, but it isn't that simple. It's not that we have a young squad, it's just that we have a massive chasm of talent in the peak age ranges...

Look at Lloyd, Mee, Winnet, Murray, James and Co, they make up halfnthebsquad, then there are 8 players the wrong side of 33/34, in Parry, Falatau, Thomas, Rowlands etc...

The issue isn't age specifically, it's the lack of experience and quality of player, and the desperation in selection.

I mean there are some really sad selections let's be honest, Rhodri William's at 31, he isn't realistically going to make many appearances, or the 2027 RWC, his selection is based on how bad the alternatives are, Hardy, RMW, Davies, and Davies are all poor.

Ben Thomas, he's a clubman, a decent ball player and decent kicker, but ultimately he is average at club level, see his poor showing last night at10. Missed touch, kicked out of hand poorly, misses anything at goal wider than 15m channel, defends poorly etc.

Then there's the sad desperation of selections in Sam Parry, Willgriff, Thomas all selected because of lack of depth.
Adam's, Falatau, Rowlands all selected on name and prayers they can regain form.
Mee, Murray, Lloyd, Tsiunza all selected on a prayer that their potential can somehow realise in camp.

For me, national selection should be about earning that spot, playing well and forcing a selection. It creates a different atmosphere, because players know they aren't first choice, they know where they are in club, league and int pecking order. Parry knows he's 4th choice, Evan Lloyd knows his club captain is a better hooker than him, Thomas and Willgriff know they are average club players...

For me, the only selections that were earnt properly, and can bring some energy and positivity are:

Tommy Reffell - performance week in week out
Freddie Thomas - super this season
Gareth Thomas - shining light of Ospreys pack
Wainright - enough said
Teddy Williams - resurgent form this season
Dan Edward's- knocked on the door all year
Hathaway - great development this year
Owen Watkin - Mr reliable
Tomos - doing Tomos things behind a decent pack
Max Llewellyn - not selected I know but really kickingnon currently.

So 8 selected players, on form, playing well making a statement. The rest of the squad seems like development contracts and filler (with the greatest of respect).

We could have a coaching team, of the greatest ever, and the results would still not come.

I do agree with you in many of the things you say.

A couple of points though, I think your assertation that all fans know little is a load of ******. The fairweather fan maybe, but most on here are extremely knowlegeble, and prove that regularly.

Yes, Gats and other will have access to some stats and data that we don't; but we can still see which players are playing well or not, or who's injured or not match fit. There have been so many examples of times where Gats (and other coaches) clearly get it wrong.

One example from one of his more successful periods of coaching Wales. How long did Gats tell us that Navidi was 'too small for international level', despite consistently performing well for Cardiff and fans calling for his inclusion? Shock horror, when he was given his chance finally he became a mainstay of the side, and one of our best performers!

You highlight Rhodri Williams' selection, and a need to pick on form. Well I will continue to point out that RMW has been the form 9 in Wales for at least 24 months! At 26, he's the perfect age too. You will continue to tell me he's not good enough, and I will continue to say that is rubbish! Easily capable of stepping up with a great all round game, and having big moments for Ospreys on a regular basis. Surely he's the better option given his age? And if box kicking is what you want, then Aled Davies is head and shoulders above other options in Wales in that regard.

I guarantee that Tomos will look **** for Wales anyway as he's forced to play a game oposite to his strengths as an attacking 9. That's why he's looked great for Gloucester after all.

 

[dirty harry]

I do agree with you in many of the things you say.

A couple of points though, I think your assertation that all fans know little is a load of ******. The fairweather fan maybe, but most on here are extremely knowlegeble, and prove that regularly.

Yes, Gats and other will have access to some stats and data that we don't; but we can still see which players are playing well or not, or who's injured or not match fit. There have been so many examples of times where Gats (and other coaches) clearly get it wrong.

One example from one of his more successful periods of coaching Wales. How long did Gats tell us that Navidi was 'too small for international level', despite consistently performing well for Cardiff and fans calling for his inclusion? Shock horror, when he was given his chance finally he became a mainstay of the side, and one of our best performers!

You highlight Rhodri Williams' selection, and a need to pick on form. Well I will continue to point out that RMW has been the form 9 in Wales for at least 24 months! At 26, he's the perfect age too. You will continue to tell me he's not good enough, and I will continue to say that is rubbish! Easily capable of stepping up with a great all round game, and having big moments for Ospreys on a regular basis. Surely he's the better option given his age? And if box kicking is what you want, then Aled Davies is head and shoulders above other options in Wales in that regard.

I guarantee that Tomos will look **** for Wales anyway as he's forced to play a game oposite to his strengths as an attacking 9. That's why he's looked great for Gloucester after all.

I'm not arguing there are levels of knowledge, but you can be the most knowledgeable person on the planet, and still not know which player attitudes are bad, which players enjoy late night gaming sessions, which players are beating their wives, or have sleep deprivation, or alcohol issues etc...
We also don't know what what long term plans look like, what stage of perdiodaization the plan is in, what the KPIs of the EPDP players are, or even the very ounce of knowledge of culture, chemistry and power struggles.

Have you ever seen any pro coach slate another pro coach? You won't see it because they understand judgements don't matter when your on the outside.

Where Gatland gets it wrong is probably the opposite of that situation. In Navidi he saw a quality underpowered back rower, and he was bang on. Navidi responded to that by becoming bigger and more powerful, probably to the detriment of his longevity. I disagree with Gatlands loyalty to players, if you remember the Cuthbert years, he just got worse and worse, and constantly was selected. Same with Costelow, we all see how bad a player he is, and his head has dropped as he's been played over the last 18 months.

But I suppose for every failure, there are probably a dozen players who have played through a slump, Wainright is probably a good example about 3 seasons ago.

I wouldn't have been devastated by RMW being selected, I don't think he's up to much, box kickingbis awful (even worse than Bevans) but his delivery isnok, and he has a bit of Tomos about him. As an all rounder though, I'd put him on par with Varney, he's not young enough to still be making the mistakes he does, andbis playing behind easily the best club pack in Wales, say what you want about Booth, his attacking breakdown structure was good, allowing a good platform, and making RMW and Edward's express themselves... it's a shame about their back 3 and Keiran William's butchering everything.

What happened to Keoran William's, he looked so good a few seasons ago, and now just trucks everything up without thought?!

Tomos will obviously look harnessed for Wales, he doesn't have the luxury of a competitive pack, a platform, or the autonomy to give things a crack, mostly because high risk rarely acheives high reward in international rugby (certainly not for the lesser teams like us).

Like you I want to see Wales open up, use Tomos as a wild card to disrupt defences, and play an expansive game offloading out wide and scoring tries... the reality though is that we would ship 50+ against any team with a decent scramble and a counter.

Would you want to see Mee and Murray play total rugby with Penaut, Biabiary, and Dupont out there licking their lips? And who's the 13 link man there to conjure this? Robert's?

Realistically, our game plan will be 9 man rugby, the pack plus Tomos. Outside of that we have massive problems, new inexperienced 10, a centre at 10, young inexperienced centres and back 3 options, or elderly returnees out wide.

 

[dirty harry]

@welshexile

Tonight I'm on Ioan Lloyd watch.

Mixed start, decent kicks to touch, 2 decent goal finders, and playmaking so far so good...

Has managed to miss 3 tackles, 2 in a 10 second period, and the one looked like he stepped out the way of the centre.

 

[Welsh Exile]

@welshexile

Tonight I'm on Ioan Lloyd watch.

Mixed start, decent kicks to touch, 2 decent goal finders, and playmaking so far so good...

Has managed to miss 3 tackles, 2 in a 10 second period, and the one looked like he stepped out the way of the centre.

I'm going to watch it later coz I don't trust you as far as I can throw you.

Only joking, I enjoy reading your input.

 

[dirty harry]

I'm going to watch it later coz I don't trust you as far as I can throw you.

Only joking, I enjoy reading your input.

Hard to judge him on that first half, Vannes are just awful. Unstructured in attack, trying to target the breakdown but giving away pen after pen.
Lloyds missed 4 tackles now, and missed both kicks at goal outside the 15s, realistically both kick able.

He looks good ball in hand, but so would I against this team lol.

The backline look electric, but the defence is so bad it's difficult to give them too much credit. Murray scored a worldy.

The biggest caveat I can say, is that Gareth Davies is looking world class.

 

[Welsh Exile]

The biggest caveat I can say, is that Gareth Davies is looking world class.

Vannes are that bad?

 

[dirty harry]

Vannes are that bad?

Ye, they're Newcastle esque. I know they're bottom of the league, but they beat Larochelle recently.

Looking for Mako Vunipola, he's not non the field lol. Neither is Nakosi.

 

[dirty harry]

Murray and Lloyd run through like they weren't there by Camou, he's a 5'10 winger.

Murray has to be better than that

 

[dirty harry]

Odd 2nd half...

Welsh selected players went ok:

Mee - 6. Didn't really get involved in much, poor in defence, chased kick well.

Robert's- 5. Very poor in defence, dropped 4/5 balls, run up dark alleys and played U20s rugby unsuccessfully.

James - 8 top performance. Unselfish and disciplined. Crashed hard early on over and over, marshalled the defence well, oozed quality in everything he did.

Murray - 7. Scored a worldy, looked lively first half, but really weak in defence. Getting better under a high ball.

Roger's- 7. Effort is there, works hard, finished a try well and defended ok. Interestingly he tried some varied kicking from FB. Grubbered one, chipped one, cross field one etc... none of them came to anything but nice to see his confidence increasing.

Lloyd had a mixed, kicked out of hand ok, ball played ok, defended very poorly, and didn't show much of a kicking range out of hand for some reason.
Plumtree looked cracking, physical, full of energy, led the defence and gave no pens away.

 

[dullonien]

Great summary there @dirty harry. I think Joe Roberts has potential, he was good pre injury; but I just don't understand his inclusion in this years squad ahead of Max. There's just no justification for it.

As you say, Roberts was the weakest of Scarlets backs today and made a fair few errors. He's just not rediscovered his form yet, which is understandable after being out for close to a year with a nasty injury.

 

[dirty harry]

Great summary there @dirty harry. I think Joe Roberts has potential, he was good pre injury; but I just don't understand his inclusion in this years squad ahead of Max. There's just no justification for it.

As you say, Roberts was the weakest of Scarlets backs today and made a fair few errors. He's just not rediscovered his form yet, which is understandable after being out for close to a year with a nasty injury.

Agree 100%, he was electric on the ball pre injury, which made up for the defence issues, but he doesn't look quite there yet.

I suspect if Grady was fit or if there was a form 10 he wouldn't have been selected as Thomas would be centre cover. I am flabbergasted by him being selected over Max.

I was annoyed when we let Max leave for Gloz, not sure what happened in Cardiff, but he and Grady coming through at 12 and 13 would have been genuine quality going forward, especially as Lane was on fire, Adams, Liam Williams were there going well, and Ben Thomas was in discussion to play 10 full time.

What a mess we have made of the backline since, 38 year old Lee lo, 18 yr old Bowen, Millard, Jenkins and the awful Hamer Webb.

Maybe it was the noise around Grady, a budget issue, but it made 0 sense whatsoever

 

[Saintjay]

Well that's Gats with one less thing to moan about. Think it's a good decision tbh.

 

[AlRums]

Well that's Gats with one less thing to moan about. Think it's a good decision tbh.

View attachment 22704

The wru stated that it was for their advantage and have taken away the agreement from opposition.

 

[dirty harry]

This stinks of desperation and bitterness.

I've always loved the fact that the away team has essentially had the last word on the roof, we have gone through some of our best times between 2005 and 2019 that way, teams have always tried to strategies how best to come at us, now we have discarded tradition, and become selfish trying to use it as a weapon...

In today's market though, rugby is business first, sport 2nd, and ethics and morals are thrown out the window for bottom line.

What else would you expect of the WRU?!

 

[Saintjay]

If you're losing a game of rugby because the roofs shut i think you've got other things to worry about.

Personaly having experienced the roof open and closed at numerous games. It's a much better experience closed.

If Twickenham or Murrayfield had a roof you'd guarantee the home fans would want it shut.

 

[dirty harry]

If you're losing a game of rugby because the roofs shut i think you've got other things to worry about.

Personaly having experienced the roof open and closed at numerous games. It's a much better experience closed.

If Twickenham or Murrayfield had a roof you'd guarantee the home fans would want it shut.

I'll be the first to put my hypocritical hands up and acknowledge I have complained plenty of times, about the roof being open against teams like Italy or Scotland years gone by who have wanted to negate our handling skills, or teams like NZ or France wanting it closed in Febuary to assist their counter attack...

But it was always a nice feeling knowing that some of the old school romance was still around.

 

[Welsh Exile]

So is Bomb coming in or what?

 

[AlRums]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cn7gxpjpp2no

 

[Welsh Exile]

Tbf, I prefer Gatland trying to build a seige mentality compared to his miserable, defeatist demeanour we've seen from him the last year or so.