England 2024/25

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Might be a silly question but are the current kit makers allowed to copy a previous design.

I know in my industry the rfu would be able to use that kit design RPI as and when they wanted but that’s a construction legal point of view but sports design/ fashion.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Underhill has said in his FTLOR interview today that Ted Hill has the fastest top speed of any player at Bath; not just any forward but any player. Pretty mad considering that Cokanasiga can really move once he gets going.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Might be a silly question but are the current kit makers allowed to copy a previous design.

I know in my industry the rfu would be able to use that kit design RPI as and when they wanted but that's a construction legal point of view but sports design/ fashion.

Think you’d have to look deep into the individual contract details for that one. You’d like to think the RFU had full control, but….

 

[Which Tyler]

Underhill has said in his FTLOR interview today that Ted Hill has the fastest top speed of any player at Bath; not just any forward but any player. Pretty mad considering that Cokanasiga can really move once he gets going.

That's been known since he arrived. Bayliss is well up there as well.
I believe Grace peaked him for a little.
The main difference with the wingers would be how long to reach peak pace, and how long they can keep it going for.

Hill was fantastic is chasing down... was it OHC last weekend?

 

[Which Tyler]

Might be a silly question but are the current kit makers allowed to copy a previous design.

I think you can't see the detailing in the pic posted here. One I've seen elsewhere the white is NOT plain white, with loads of detailing along the lines of this year's Lions jersey

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

That's been known since he arrived. Bayliss is well up there as well.
I believe Grace peaked him for a little.
The main difference with the wingers would be how long to reach peak pace, and how long they can keep it going for.

Hill was fantastic is chasing down... was it OHC last weekend?

Yeah, straight line speed is great, but acceleration as you say and changing direction at pace are probably more important.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Quotes yesterday say Ciaran Donoghue could be called up.

'England head coach Steve Borthwick, who needs back-up to George Ford for the July matches with Argentina and the USA, said: 'We've got three brilliant fly-halves in Fin (Smith), Marcus (Smith) and George. Two of them have been selected for the Lions tour, so we're clearly looking at who will be the next ones.
'Charlie Atkinson has been in a number of squads and training programmes and Ciaran is another of those players. (Donoghue) has got exceptional pace.
'He's a player I've spoken to Lee Blackett about a number of times. He's coached him at Bath and Lee is going to be part of the England touring party this summer.' '


think the other aspect to look at is the quality of players we have here who are not on that Lions tour but are experienced players. Fin Baxter has been in every England 23 for pretty much the last year. Bevan Rodd has been in plenty of games, he started at loose-head prop in England's bronze-medal game in the last World Cup.

[H2]Opoku-Fordjour part of long-term plan[/H2]"You see Jamie George, Theo Dan, you've got Joe Heyes, Asher Opoku-Fordjour, Afo Fasogbon. Just to look at the front-rowers, these are really good players who are fighting for an opportunity in the England team. So I see that as being an important step for us coming into the autumn."

Opoku-Fordjour will continue to cover loosehead and tighthead prop for England as part of a "long-term plan" that could be "terrific" for World Cups. The prodigious front-rower, an England U20 team-mate of Pollock last season, has impressed at tighthead for Sale Sharks yet switched to loosehead for the England A international against Australia last November.

Lots of other quotes as well. One makes it clear Slade is heading to Argentina.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Not a bad option tbf,
If Bath weren't in the playoffs I'd have said give him the XV game

 

[Which Tyler]

IMO - it's too early for Donoghue or Benson.
But...
They'd learn a shit-tonne from the experience, especially experiencing a tour - even if "all" they're doing is holding tackle bags, being exposed to a different training environment and different coaches.
We're also without 2 of our 3 first choice FHs (whilst a 4th is overseas, 5th is an injured FB, and 6th is called "Slade"), have an A-match and a match against USA - given that situation.... Ford > Atkinson/Bailey > Donoghue/Benson makes sense. Atkinson probably misses out due to versatility (and not really looking like he's got another gear to find - though that's a judgement call that the coaches are paid to make, not me).
Donoghue v Benson is, again, a judgement call for the coaches; and as above, Donoghue's versatility would likely count in his favour.

Given that I'm hoping Bath will be involved in the Prem final, I think that rules them out for the A-match... for that one 10. Atkinson, 23 Benson.
For Argentina 10. Ford, 23 Bailey
For USA 10. Bailey*, 23. Donoghue


*Unless he shits the bed against Argentina

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

What’s the general consensus on Donoghue’s position long term? Is he a 10 who can play 15 or a 15 who can play 10?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

For me it’s more a case of there is no one else so you might as well give a young 10 some tour experience

We really don’t have many alternatives for a 3rd 10

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

2 Prem starts, 2 Prem Cup starts. He didn't do terribly or anything but the fact we've reverted to Skinner should tell you what you need to know about where he’s at right now. Could well be one for the future though.

 

[Which Tyler]

What's the general consensus on Donoghue's position long term? Is he a 10 who can play 15 or a 15 who can play 10?

15 who looked to the manor born when tried at 10.
Worth noting that when both he and Bailey are on the pitch, Donoghue plays FH (since Bailey's return from injury - I don't think CD had ever played FH before at senior level)

Early rounds of PRC, he was playing FB, and... was fine, part of a winning team, but... perfectly serviceable cog in the machine - it was when he moved to FH when Bailey went off injured that he flourished.

 

[Geordie]

15 who looked to the manor born when tried at 10.
Worth noting that when both he and Bailey are on the pitch, Donoghue plays FH (since Bailey's return from injury - I don't think CD had ever played FH before at senior level)

Early rounds of PRC, he was playing FB, and... was fine, part of a winning team, but... perfectly serviceable cog in the machine - it was when he moved to FH when Bailey went off injured that he flourished.

So could he be developed in to the the natural back up and eventual replacement for Furbank...

 

[Which Tyler]

So could he be developed in to the the natural back up and eventual replacement for Furbank...

Yes, though so could Tom De Glanville from the same club - and both will be fight Santi Carreras for game time next year.
It's also still far too soon for him IMO.

As a matter of principle, I'd never select someone for international honours in their breakthrough season - it's just impossible to know who's going to suffer Second Season Syndrome once opponents have seen their videos; or are better at being the chaser rather than the chased within the club pecking order.
Some players burst onto the scene, struggle to adjust, then overcome the struggle.
Some burst on, struggle to adust, then disappear never to be seen again.
Some burst on, struggle, and never quite find that level again.
Some burst on, and never look back.
Some burst on, pick up and injury, and find that despite their talent, their body simply isn't built for the grind of professional rugby (or the injury is bad enough to retire them outright).
Of course, most build a bit more gradually.

 

[Which Tyler]

IMO - it's too early for Donoghue or Benson.
But...
They'd learn a shit-tonne from the experience, especially experiencing a tour - even if "all" they're doing is holding tackle bags, being exposed to a different training environment and different coaches.
We're also without 2 of our 3 first choice FHs (whilst a 4th is overseas, 5th is an injured FB, and 6th is called "Slade"), have an A-match and a match against USA - given that situation.... Ford > Atkinson/Bailey > Donoghue/Benson makes sense. Atkinson probably misses out due to versatility (and not really looking like he's got another gear to find - though that's a judgement call that the coaches are paid to make, not me).
Donoghue v Benson is, again, a judgement call for the coaches; and as above, Donoghue's versatility would likely count in his favour.

Given that I'm hoping Bath will be involved in the Prem final, I think that rules them out for the A-match... for that one 10. Atkinson, 23 Benson.
For Argentina 10. Ford, 23 Bailey
For USA 10. Bailey*, 23. Donoghue


*Unless he shits the bed against Argentina

Now I've had time to check on All.rugby - OB and CA have almost exactly the same split of (starting) positional experience 50:7:1 vs 51:6:1. OB has played a total of 1 extra match in his career.
I had forgotten that OB's also sat on a full-international bench (where he stayed sitting), whereas CA's "only" had a couple of A-matches.

Suggests that OB may be ever so slightly ahead of CA in Borthwick's thoughts, but that positional versatility card I thought he had... isn't

I still think that Bailey has a marginally higher ceiling that CAtkinson - but that's a purely subjective thing, and may well be affected by club bias - TBH I don't think either could ever reach "good international" level, though both could probably reach "serviceable if there's no-one else".

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

As a matter of principle, I'd never select someone for international honours in their breakthrough season - it's just impossible to know who's going to suffer Second Season Syndrome once opponents have seen their videos; or are better at being the chaser rather than the chased within the club pecking order.

Pollock is an obvious exception surely

 

[Ddanno]

Pollock is an obvious exception surely

Stop trying to wind Olly up

 

[Which Tyler]

Impossible to tell - though he doesn't SEEM the sort mentally, or the way that he plays the game - but you can't really tell in advance.
Either way, he wouldn't be an exception, he'd just fit into the "Some burst on, and never look back." category - if that's what he does.

Stop trying to wind Olly up

but it's so fun! and easy

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Just cause he's a prick doesn't mean I don't think he's a good player?