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Cruz_del_Sur said:
Great question and a fair one. Thank you! Tricky one, but let me have a crack at it. No, i dont mean to imply he is right. Gun culture instantly comes to mind. I'd wager, heavily, the overwhelming majority of the posters here haven't lived in the US, and have never, ever, held a gun, let alone shot one. Yet here they are passing judgement on the rights and wrongs of another country's core values. And sure, going without stops to the 'school shootings' argument looks like an easy way out. It looks like a fairish argument at first, granted, but it is precisely there where the hypocrisy lies. It's a bit like an old boys club getting together on a friday for some pints to criticize, again and again, something 5000 kms away in a place they've only visited a couple of times for holidays, touching the tourist traps and then coming back home to brag about how much you know about it to the guys at the local pub. That is **** poor.

Some of you talk about these issues with such a sense of entitlement that is hard to build anything from such a starting point. Talk to a south african, new zealander or argentinean about gun laws. What's it like, what do people do, what do people think about it? All you need to do is @ someone from that place. Yet no one does it. Why? Because they believe they already know better.

Let me be clear: you do not have to accept his point of view nor his opinion, but dear lord grant him the benefit of the doubt every now and then and accept that he lives there and you get your news from online media reports and soc med. There are levels to this game and you are disregarding this.

And the twisting of words, the hypocrisy...

For every post about people being arrested for soc med in the ku i will find at least 2 posts about school shootings. Easily. What does that have to do? Well, it's a forum that is overwhelmingly european and somehow, conveniently, a pretty gigantic european problem is rarely addressed and another one from across the pond is. And when it does everyone lays the smack on the same poster. I do see a pretty crystal clear trend. An obvious one.

Half the posters here post as if they genuinely felt they know better about the us than the people who live there. It goes unnoticed among you (plural!) because, well, it's a generalized behaviour, so it doesnt stand out. I guess not being from either, but having lived in both, gives me a different perspective. For whatever reason, i can see it 10 miles away.

TL/DR?: no, he is not necessarily right. I dont think he even gets a fair chance to be heard and whether you like it or not, he has more on-the-ground experience than all of you combined on some of the subjects being discussed here yet he gets treated like an ignoramus who can barely begin sentences with capital letters and end them with a punctuation mark, who drinks montain dew for breakfast and sings hee haw lullabies to his 2 year old-but already gun carrying- toddler. That stereotypization (?) is as ignorant, if not more, than the ignorance it tries to address and make fun of.
Click to expand...
I’ve kind of made the exact same point on here illustrating how your average American (republican or democrat by the way) view guns compared to us so you won’t see me disagreeing with the essence of what you’re saying.

For me personally, I wasn’t talking about guns I was talking about Chicago Kid seemingly enjoying the rhetoric his president is engaging in.
 
Welsh Exile said:
What do you mean when you say

Let us just all take jabs at chicagokid about things we dont know

This kinda implies Chacaho kid is right. It's his opinion of course but I won't be told just because he is American he is right. Maybe I have misunderstood your point, though.
Click to expand...

I think it was a comment about dog piling, I think your aware of it...
 
dirty harry said:
I think it was a comment about dog piling, I think your aware of it...
Click to expand...
In the spirit of fairness Chicago kid was, I’m sure you’d agree, doing himself no favours by offering to fight people and what not.

I’d rather keep it on point and be more specific but I’ve got no problem with Chicago kid personally.
 
Cruz_del_Sur said:
Great question and a fair one. Thank you! Tricky one, but let me have a crack at it. No, i dont mean to imply he is right. Gun culture instantly comes to mind. I'd wager, heavily, the overwhelming majority of the posters here haven't lived in the US, and have never, ever, held a gun, let alone shot one. Yet here they are passing judgement on the rights and wrongs of another country's core values. And sure, going without stops to the 'school shootings' argument looks like an easy way out. It looks like a fairish argument at first, granted, but it is precisely there where the hypocrisy lies. It's a bit like an old boys club getting together on a friday for some pints to criticize, again and again, something 5000 kms away in a place they've only visited a couple of times for holidays, touching the tourist traps and then coming back home to brag about how much you know about it to the guys at the local pub. That is **** poor.

Some of you talk about these issues with such a sense of entitlement that is hard to build anything from such a starting point. Talk to a south african, new zealander or argentinean about gun laws. What's it like, what do people do, what do people think about it? All you need to do is @ someone from that place. Yet no one does it. Why? Because they believe they already know better.

Let me be clear: you do not have to accept his point of view nor his opinion, but dear lord grant him the benefit of the doubt every now and then and accept that he lives there and you get your news from online media reports and soc med. There are levels to this game and you are disregarding this.

And the twisting of words, the hypocrisy...

For every post about people being arrested for soc med in the ku i will find at least 2 posts about school shootings. Easily. What does that have to do? Well, it's a forum that is overwhelmingly european and somehow, conveniently, a pretty gigantic european problem is rarely addressed and another one from across the pond is. And when it does everyone lays the smack on the same poster. I do see a pretty crystal clear trend. An obvious one.

Half the posters here post as if they genuinely felt they know better about the us than the people who live there. It goes unnoticed among you (plural!) because, well, it's a generalized behaviour, so it doesnt stand out. I guess not being from either, but having lived in both, gives me a different perspective. For whatever reason, i can see it 10 miles away.

TL/DR?: no, he is not necessarily right. I dont think he even gets a fair chance to be heard and whether you like it or not, he has more on-the-ground experience than all of you combined on some of the subjects being discussed here yet he gets treated like an ignoramus who can barely begin sentences with capital letters and end them with a punctuation mark, who drinks montain dew for breakfast and sings hee haw lullabies to his 2 year old-but already gun carrying- toddler. That stereotypization (?) is as ignorant, if not more, than the ignorance it tries to address and make fun of.
Click to expand...
Whilst I understand your sentiment, I feel there are some key early steps that led to this that have been missed. Chicago first said they supported Trump a while ago and, whilst they faced opposition, was not roundly vilified. Most posters asked what his justification was for it given how Trump acted. From a personal standpoint I asked if they had no problem with Trumps rampant lies, hypocrisy and generally **** behaviour. This isn't really a point of contention, even MAGA can admit that Trump is like that. Chicago was more than happy to engage in chest beating and slagging off other countries themselves early on, so it wasn't a one-way street. If anything it was their refusal to actually offer any reason for their support, instead resorting to nationalist slogans that led to this. You get what you give and they were more than happy to give it out.

Chicago has also said some things that are flat out wrong. They claimed Constitutional protections don't apply to non-citizens, that the USA won the war of 1812 and recently acted like the military had the power to arrest people, all are straight up wrong. The fact they are American doesn't change that. Living in the country gives you a better understanding of things more locally yes, that is certainly fair. When it comes to more academic exercises (eg what laws say) it doesn't. In these cases the people involved would most likely need to both do research online.

Also, regardless of what you do or don't know, hypocrisy can always be pointed out. Chicago has gone on about the importance of the 2nd amendment to supposedly stand up to tyranny, has opposed politicisation of the legal process and opposed suppression of free speech. Now it's "his side" carrying this all out, every single one of those principals has been thrown out the window as they themselves continue to spout lies about Europe and Britain. Yes they are outnumbered here, but they are bringing a lot of this on themselves with their own attitude too.
 
Cruz_del_Sur said:
Great question and a fair one. Thank you! Tricky one, but let me have a crack at it. No, i dont mean to imply he is right. Gun culture instantly comes to mind. I'd wager, heavily, the overwhelming majority of the posters here haven't lived in the US, and have never, ever, held a gun, let alone shot one. Yet here they are passing judgement on the rights and wrongs of another country's core values. And sure, going without stops to the 'school shootings' argument looks like an easy way out. It looks like a fairish argument at first, granted, but it is precisely there where the hypocrisy lies. It's a bit like an old boys club getting together on a friday for some pints to criticize, again and again, something 5000 kms away in a place they've only visited a couple of times for holidays, touching the tourist traps and then coming back home to brag about how much you know about it to the guys at the local pub. That is **** poor.

Some of you talk about these issues with such a sense of entitlement that is hard to build anything from such a starting point. Talk to a south african, new zealander or argentinean about gun laws. What's it like, what do people do, what do people think about it? All you need to do is @ someone from that place. Yet no one does it. Why? Because they believe they already know better.

Let me be clear: you do not have to accept his point of view nor his opinion, but dear lord grant him the benefit of the doubt every now and then and accept that he lives there and you get your news from online media reports and soc med. There are levels to this game and you are disregarding this.

And the twisting of words, the hypocrisy...

For every post about people being arrested for soc med in the ku i will find at least 2 posts about school shootings. Easily. What does that have to do? Well, it's a forum that is overwhelmingly european and somehow, conveniently, a pretty gigantic european problem is rarely addressed and another one from across the pond is. And when it does everyone lays the smack on the same poster. I do see a pretty crystal clear trend. An obvious one.

Half the posters here post as if they genuinely felt they know better about the us than the people who live there. It goes unnoticed among you (plural!) because, well, it's a generalized behaviour, so it doesnt stand out. I guess not being from either, but having lived in both, gives me a different perspective. For whatever reason, i can see it 10 miles away.

TL/DR?: no, he is not necessarily right. I dont think he even gets a fair chance to be heard and whether you like it or not, he has more on-the-ground experience than all of you combined on some of the subjects being discussed here yet he gets treated like an ignoramus who can barely begin sentences with capital letters and end them with a punctuation mark, who drinks montain dew for breakfast and sings hee haw lullabies to his 2 year old-but already gun carrying- toddler. That stereotypization (?) is as ignorant, if not more, than the ignorance it tries to address and make fun of.
Click to expand...
I know a few Americans and play rugby with one. I am equaly experienced as most Americans with hand guns, rifles, and probably things that'll hurt a lot more as well.

Most I've spoken with have mixed views on guns so I have engaged with those with lived experiences.

It's 50/50 on how they see the USA currently. Regarding guns they are pretty accepting that basing your laws on a piece of paper when not everyone could in buy an automatic rifle is pretty nuts. So yes I've asked people who live there and no they don't act like Chicago does. Granted online personas can be very different in person.

It's a deeper question but ultimately would the founding fathers reach the same decisions they did way back when if they were living in the world today.

I'd add that I might not know a lot about the USA but I do know homophobia, racism and discrimination when I see it
 
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No American I know personally has the attitudes Chicago has including actual verified people from Chicago. I admit most Americans I know be it friends or collegues are city folk or from very blue states however.
 
back from 10 days in Oklahoma and Kansas

general observation: everyone was very welcoming, even my Baptist offshoot (Baptists call them extreme) in law family

specific to this thread:
1) billboards around OKC calling for "justice for Charlie Kirk"...actual huge freeway billboards
2) fuel was expensive or at least similar to AUS...which is expensive, was approx $70 USD to fill our rental which was a mid sized SUV
3) food was expensive (even before the tip), we were paying the same value id expect to pay in AUD, even in smaller towns
4) there was a 80 year old woman with arthritis in her hands...who had a gun in her purse...at the wedding
5) all the towns were like ghost towns, we spent the most time in OKC and Tulsa and even rush hour on work days were super quiet including business districts and malls, felt weird, we're walking around looking for coffee/breakfast and we go blocks without seeing people and maybe one or two cars drive past, the smaller towns we visits were proper boarded up like you'd see in a movie
6) only saw one MAGA hat
7) border control seems like guesswork, family in front of us all five were photographed and printed, my wife had a photo and prints on one hand...and i had nothing, just waved through after asking the reason for a visit and how long we were staying. my American sister in law coming from the UK had the full photo and prints but her husband (my brother travelling on a UK passport) only had photo and no prints
 
Kiwiwomble said:
back from 10 days in Oklahoma and Kansas

general observation: everyone was very welcoming, even my Baptist offshoot (Baptists call them extreme) in law family

specific to this thread:
1) billboards around OKC calling for "justice for Charlie Kirk"...actual huge freeway billboards
2) fuel was expensive or at least similar to AUS...which is expensive, was approx $70 USD to fill our rental which was a mid sized SUV
3) food was expensive (even before the tip), we were paying the same value id expect to pay in AUD, even in smaller towns
4) there was a 80 year old woman with arthritis in her hands...who had a gun in her purse...at the wedding
5) all the towns were like ghost towns, we spent the most time in OKC and Tulsa and even rush hour on work days were super quiet including business districts and malls, felt weird, we're walking around looking for coffee/breakfast and we go blocks without seeing people and maybe one or two cars drive past, the smaller towns we visits were proper boarded up like you'd see in a movie
6) only saw one MAGA hat
7) border control seems like guesswork, family in front of us all five were photographed and printed, my wife had a photo and prints on one hand...and i had nothing, just waved through after asking the reason for a visit and how long we were staying. my American sister in law coming from the UK had the full photo and prints but her husband (my brother travelling on a UK passport) only had photo and no prints
Click to expand...
Funny enough I went to a wedding in OKC a few years ago and had a similar impression.

2. & 3.) The dollar is strong right now and with inflation, things got pricey. Going out to eat used to be something people did often. Not anymore.

4) Oklahoma is a very conservative state with a long history of ranching. She was one of many carrying at the wedding.

5.) Southern states don’t really have urbanism. Everything takes place in the suburbs. It’s not exactly my cup of tea, but for 400k, you can get a big house and a nice yard.

6.) MAGA stuff is not very common. More American flags and other patriotic gear is more common.
 
ChicagoKid said:
Funny enough I went to a wedding in OKC a few years ago and had a similar impression.

2. & 3.) The dollar is strong right now and with inflation, things got pricey. Going out to eat used to be something people did often. Not anymore.

4) Oklahoma is a very conservative state with a long history of ranching. She was one of many carrying at the wedding.

5.) Southern states don't really have urbanism. Everything takes place in the suburbs. It's not exactly my cup of tea, but for 400k, you can get a big house and a nice yard.

6.) MAGA stuff is not very common. More American flags and other patriotic gear is more common.
Click to expand...
Are you well travelled in terms of the USA. I do think Europeans find it hard to grasp how big it is.

I don't ask that question as a gotcha or anything as no average American is travelling round all the states or anything. It would be like expecting people from the UK to have been to every country in Europe when in reality most people have gone to Benidorm and that's about it.
 
Welsh Exile said:
Are you well travelled in terms of the USA. I do think Europeans find it hard to grasp how big it is.

I don't ask that question as a gotcha or anything as no average American is travelling round all the states or anything. It would be like expecting people from the UK to have been to every country in Europa when in most people have gone to Benidorm and that's about.
Click to expand...
Ive spent decent time in around 35 states. I haven't spent hardly anytime in New England or Pacific Northwest. I've visited a time or two, but their cultures are still foreign to me.

Culturally, I understand the Midwest, Rocky Mountains, South, and Texas very well. My wife and I have family all over the country — from Southern California to Boston.

There are also numerous sub regions/cultures within these areas. Dallas Tx ≠ San Antonio.
 
Kiwiwomble said:
back from 10 days in Oklahoma and Kansas

general observation: everyone was very welcoming, even my Baptist offshoot (Baptists call them extreme) in law family

specific to this thread:
1) billboards around OKC calling for "justice for Charlie Kirk"...actual huge freeway billboards
2) fuel was expensive or at least similar to AUS...which is expensive, was approx $70 USD to fill our rental which was a mid sized SUV
3) food was expensive (even before the tip), we were paying the same value id expect to pay in AUD, even in smaller towns
4) there was a 80 year old woman with arthritis in her hands...who had a gun in her purse...at the wedding
5) all the towns were like ghost towns, we spent the most time in OKC and Tulsa and even rush hour on work days were super quiet including business districts and malls, felt weird, we're walking around looking for coffee/breakfast and we go blocks without seeing people and maybe one or two cars drive past, the smaller towns we visits were proper boarded up like you'd see in a movie
6) only saw one MAGA hat
7) border control seems like guesswork, family in front of us all five were photographed and printed, my wife had a photo and prints on one hand...and i had nothing, just waved through after asking the reason for a visit and how long we were staying. my American sister in law coming from the UK had the full photo and prints but her husband (my brother travelling on a UK passport) only had photo and no prints
Click to expand...
I’ll add one thing because I think it helps illustrate how the world is more nuanced than people think.

My buddy is in the Air Force and located in the OKC area. He met a Filipino girl at a local restaurant and married her. She just arrived America in the last few years. Before they were married, she was driving a semi at 5’2 110lbs.

My buddy is also the biggest MAGA guy in our friend group. And his kids are mixed-race and his wife just became a citizen. I think she wants 7 more kids. She is also very religious, which he wasn’t but convinced him to start attending church with her.

She stays at home and they live a pretty traditional life. Their home is in a quiet and uneventful suburb where you have to drive everywhere. It’s not my first choice in life, but he bought a house like this for under 400k.


They are living the American dream.
 
ChicagoKid said:
Ive spent decent time in around 35 states. I haven't spent hardly anytime in New England or Pacific Northwest. I've visited a time or two, but their cultures are still foreign to me.

Culturally, I understand the Midwest, Rocky Mountains, South, and Texas very well. My wife and I have family all over the country — from Southern California to Boston.

There are also numerous sub regions/cultures within these areas. Dallas Tx ≠ San Antonio.
Click to expand...
Do you notice any difference in attitudes towards Trump between your Trump voting friends? Are some more forgiving of Jan 6th than others? Do some tolerate his crass behaviour more than others etc?
 

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