England vs New Zealand - 15/11/2025

[IT157]

1. Ethan de Groot
2. Codie Taylor
3. Fletcher Newell
4. Scott Barrett
5. Fabian Holland
6. Simon Parker
7. Ardie Savea
8. Peter Lakai
9. Cam Roigard
10. Beauden Barrett
11. Leicester Fainga'anuku
12. Quinn Tupaea
13. Billy Proctor
14. Leroy Carter
15. Will Jordan

Reserves

16. Samisoni Taukei'aho
17. Tamaiti Williams
18. Pasilio Tosi
19. Josh Lord
20. Wallace Sititi
21. Cortez Ratima
22. Anton Lienert-Brown
23. Damian McKenzie

That's a good team. New Zealand by 10.

 

[Jimbo]

Simmonds.

Thing is they're badged hybrid players, but they're not really. They're specialist back rowers who have some of the traits required in certain backs positions, but far from all. For 15 or 20 minutes you might get away with it but for 60 minutes it's odds on that you would see the limitations of Earl at 12 or Pollock on the wing. The perverse part of me almost wants to see this happen one day just to see how it pans out.

You’ve kind of spectacular missed the point here, it isn’t what their best position based on playing career and where they have been drilled and trained to play, it’s more of a could they have excelled elsewhere, would someone like Esterhuizon and some of the bigger Fijian and French units have been coached and drilled into the row instead of at 12 if English. I’m not calling this a fact but asking the question part of me finds it inconceivable that with the player pool we’ve had there has been such a drout of ball carrying 12s.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

You've kind of spectacular missed the point here, it isn't what their best position based on playing career and where they have been drilled and trained to play, it's more of a could they have excelled elsewhere, would someone like Esterhuizon and some of the bigger Fijian and French units have been coached and drilled into the row instead of at 12 if English. I'm not calling this a fact but asking the question part of me finds it inconceivable that with the player pool we've had there has been such a drout of ball carrying 12s.

Not really. I was merely picking up on the description of ‘hybrid’ players. A term which plenty of other people have used too.

On the broader point, there possibly is a tendency to specialise too early and players should definitely try various positions as they mature. But equally I think players do find a natural home fairly quickly. Physique and certain traits are only guidelines as each position requires a broad range of skills. For some there’s also the enjoyment factor - for example some prefer the back row as they tend to get more involvements.

 

[BPM]

I understood the point @Jimbo was attempting to make. In another world Bastareaud was a prop and Manu Tuilagi is an 8 etc.

Sam Simmonds is probably the wrong example though. He's listed as 184cm and 103kg. About the same size as Henry Slade who no-one would describe as an Esterhuizen/Aki type of centre. He was never a real 8 - he packed down there but ultimately, he excelled in a system that was designed to maximise his strengths. He's no more than OK outside of that. Would have been a better 13 than a sort of back rower. Maybe but hardly a definite.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Will always believe Jack Clifford could have been a hybrid man.

The gas in that try v Wales...

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

There is much more to be a back than being a fast back rower.

Until they can pass under pressure, pick the right options, kick, get used to no space, not kill the ball every time etc etc

I understand training back rowers to cover due to the obsession with the 5:2 split bt it in reality if you have a proper bench you’ll never need a hybrid player.

 

[BPM]

Will always believe Jack Clifford could have been a hybrid man.

The gas in that try v Wales...

Ah Jack … such a shame. Possibly Quins bias here but I think he could have offered a better version of what we get from Earl. Same pace but a bit more dog and a bit more skilful.

There is much more to be a back than being a fast back rower.

Until they can pass under pressure, pick the right options, kick, get used to no space, not kill the ball every time etc etc

I understand training back rowers to cover due to the obsession with the 5:2 split bt it in reality if you have a proper bench you'll never need a hybrid player.

This isn't what anyone's saying … @Jimbo was referring to players who are good but might have been better had they played in a different position.

The truth is, there have been a handful of players who are equally effective as forwards and backs. Levani Botia is probably the best I've seen in terms of being notably good wherever he played.

Earl has looked pretty decent at 12 when he's covered there but I'm not sure I'd ever want to see it from the start of a game in anything other than a dire emergency.

 

[Jimbo]

Ah Jack … such a shame. Possibly Quins bias here but I think he could have offered a better version of what we get from Earl. Same pace but a bit more dog and a bit more skilful.


This isn't what anyone's saying … @Jimbo was referring to players who are good but might have been better had they played in a different position.

The truth is, there have been a handful of players who are equally effective as forwards and backs. Levani Botia is probably the best I've seen in terms of being notably good wherever he played.

Earl has looked pretty decent at 12 when he's covered there but I'm not sure I'd ever want to see it from the start of a game in anything other than a dire emergency.

This is it, I think people are confusing players who are and have always trained as forwards vs might have been better playing their entire career as a 12. I don’t want to see those that are now for what ever reason confirmed as forwards played as hybrids in general if very occasional circumstances dictate it fine but it should be rare, my point was more the reasoning behind some positioning have a lack of international options whilst some positions seem to have a complete excess, it’s by no means unique to England but certainly seems persistent in a position or two since circa 2003, might be slightly exasperated by Manu’s injury issues, I thought Sam Simmonds was similar to Earl stature wise, happy to concede being wrong if he’s more Slades size.

 

[NotTooAmused]

Don't England historically have their 12 as their second playmaker (rather than other countries who use the fullback) so all your big strong ball carriers end up in the pack?

Now that the ball-carrying 12 is in fashion, it's left England (moreso the English fans) clamouring for one.

I'm probably wrong on this, but that's what I thought was the case.

 

[Which Tyler]

Don't England historically have their 12 as their second playmaker (rather than other countries who use the fullback) so all your big strong ball carriers end up in the pack?

Now that the ball-carrying 12 is in fashion, it's left England (moreso the English fans) clamouring for one.

I'm probably wrong on this, but that's what I thought was the case.

It's always been about balance.
You've two centres to combine creating space for others, carrying in traffic, and exploiting space created by their partner. Or playmaker, bosher, runner - if you prefer. Then you've got the vital add-ons like kicking from hand, defensive leader, jackling/rucking etc.

The fashion for the balance changes over time, mostly by what's available - though yes, some nations have a stronger view than others, and yes those views can affect where a player then specialised.
Inclusion of the FB to take on some centre duties seems a newer development to me as everything has become more holistic, and balance across the whole back 5 is considered way more than it used to be (this goes for the back 5 of the scrum too).

England's problem over the last decade or so has been the reliance on fitting one or both of Farrell and Tuilagi into the centre berths. Meaning that any prospects we did produce looked for a different position to play, or a different country to represent (Harris, Redpath, Williams, Tompkins... may not have made it to the very top (Harris aside), but there have been plenty of years England fans would have donated a limb to secure 1-2 of them. Redpath would still probably first choice IC if he'd chosen England)

 

[NotTooAmused]

Borthers needs to man up and chuck Ellis Genge in the 12 shirt. Give the people what they want.

 

[Saintjay]

England were stuck in a constant search for the next player the same size, pace and skill set of Manu. Or previously in the constant hope Manu was fit.

Size is the biggest indicator of where you play or especially how far you make it up the rugby pyramid now. Unless you have X-factor like Dmac or Kolbe. It's often said on here player X,Y,Z is too small for that position or international rugby.

 

[Half Pint]

I'll never forget the Italy experiment with bergamasco at scrum half. I felt sorry for the guy, he was absolutely useless.

I'll never forget the England experiment with Marler taking the lineout throw. I felt sorry for the guy, he was absolutely useless.

(I'm a big fan of Joe, btw)

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'll never forget the England experiment with Marler taking the lineout throw. I felt sorry for the guy, he was absolutely useless.

(I'm a big fan of Joe, btw)

Wasn’t really an experiment in fairness, it was the last resort after Cowan-Dickie got carded.

 

[Ddanno]

Wasn't really an experiment in fairness, it was the last resort after Cowan-Dickie got carded.

Playing volleyball no less

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Everyone talks about Manu but we all know he’s a poor man’s Jamie Noon.

 

[Ddanno]

I'm bored as hell. I'm going back to bed until this starts

 

[BPM]

That's a good team. New Zealand by 10.

Hasn’t been a 10 point margin for a good few fixtures. I expect it to be close. Within 7 either way.

 

[HenryChinaski]

NZ commentators - "A rivalry between two countries which goes way beyond the playing field" - does it? Don't flatter yourself boys

 

[TommiG88]

I’m predicting that the haka will be the highlight of the game