[EOYT] Scotland vs South Africa 16/11/13

[TRF_stormer2010]

Sunday, 17th of November 2013, 15h00 (local)
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
Referee: Jerome Garces (France)


A history of results in matches between the two nations:

[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TH]Date[/TH]
[TH]Venue[/TH]
[TH="width: 60, bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Score[/TH]
[TH="width: 110, bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Victor[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Comments[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]17 November 2013[/TD]
[TD] Murrayfield, Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]–[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2013 Autumn International[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15 June 2013[/TD]
[TD] Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]30 – 17[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]South African Quadrangular tournament[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]17 November 2012[/TD]
[TD] Murrayfield, Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]10 – 21[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]2012 Autumn International[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]20 November 2010[/TD]
[TD] Murrayfield, Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]21 – 17[/TD]
[TD]

Scotland[/TD]
[TD]2010 Grand Slam Tour[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15 November 2008[/TD]
[TD] Murrayfield, Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]10 – 14[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]2008 Autumn International[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]25 August 2007[/TD]
[TD] Murrayfield, Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3 –27[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]2007 Rugby World Cup warm-up test[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]17 June 2006[/TD]
[TD] EPRU Stadium, Port Elizabeth[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]29 –15[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]Scottish tour of South Africa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10 June 2006[/TD]
[TD] Kings Park Stadium, Durban[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]36 –16[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]27 November 2004[/TD]
[TD] Murrayfield, Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]10 – 45[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]2004 Autumn Internationals[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14 June 2003[/TD]
[TD] Ellis Park, Johannesburg[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]28 –19[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]2003 Scottish Tour of South Africa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7 June 2003[/TD]
[TD] Kings Park Stadium, Durban[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]29 –25[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]16 November 2002[/TD]
[TD] Murrayfield, Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]21 –6[/TD]
[TD]

Scotland[/TD]
[TD]2002 Autumn International[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3 October 1999[/TD]
[TD] Murrayfield, Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]29 –46[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]1999 Rugby World Cup[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]21 November 1998[/TD]
[TD] Murrayfield, Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]10 –35[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]1998 South Africa rugby union tour[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6 December 1997[/TD]
[TD] Murrayfield, Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]10 –68[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]1997 Autumn International[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19 November 1994[/TD]
[TD] Murrayfield, Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]10 –34[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]1994 Autumn International[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6 December 1969[/TD]
[TD] Murrayfield, Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6 –3[/TD]
[TD]

Scotland[/TD]
[TD]1969-70 South Africa tour[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]17 April 1965[/TD]
[TD] Murrayfield, Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]8 –5[/TD]
[TD]

Scotland[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]21 January 1961[/TD]
[TD] Murrayfield, Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5 –12[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]1960-61 South Africa rugby union tour[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]30 April 1960[/TD]
[TD] EPRU Stadium, Port Elizabeth[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]18 –10[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]24 November 1951[/TD]
[TD] Murrayfield, Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0 –44[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]1951-52 South Africa tour[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]16 January 1932[/TD]
[TD] Murrayfield, Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3 –6[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]1931-32 South Africa tour[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]23 November 1912[/TD]
[TD] Inverleith, Edinburgh[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0 –16[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]1912-13 South Africa tour[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]17 November 1906[/TD]
[TD] Hampden Park, Glasgow[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6 –0[/TD]
[TD]

Scotland[/TD]
[TD]1906-07 South Africa tour
[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]
​

This match will probably be tighter than one might think particulalry if you take into account that Scotland has made SA sweat in recent matches (even a win in 2010) and are coming off a big win over a capable Japan while SA will be looking to use this match to experiment with coach Heynecke Meyer having stated that he sees this tour as an opportunity to build towards the 2015 RWC which means we are likely to see changes in the starting line-up both on an experimental basis and looking at the short (5 day) turn-around time for the test in Paris against the XV de France. There is also Morne Steyn likely being unavaiable due to injury.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

So Morne Steyn is likely to be unavaiable and I expect HM would rather rest him than risk him if not 100% while HM has mentioned that he'd like to see what Bakkies Botha can contribute on the field at this stage for SA (http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,9817_9020882,00.html). Well, HM has already indicated that he'd like for most players to get a chance and then there is the game against France only 5 days after this one so a rotation policy makes sense. I think with the game against Wales still fresh in our minds and the announcement of the fianl matchday squad still a few days off this is the perfect time to speculate (even if you hate it, Hein!!)!

my picks would be:

1 Guthro Steenkamp - Beast needs a rest
2 Adriaan Strauss - rotating him and BdP seems to keep both hungry and I'd prefer Bissie to be fresh for France
3 Frans Malherbe - give the fat boy another run and see how he goes IMO as we need to develop options here
4 Bakkies Botha - Eben needs a rest/wake-up IMO and is slowly dropping standards
5 PS du Toit - because I want to see him start but probably not against france
6 Francois Louw (c)
7 Siya Kolisi - I want Alberts fresh for France
8 Duane Vermeulen - because we can't make wholesale changes even if Vermeulen could use an off-week
9 Fourie du Preez - because he should be fresh enough playing limited games in Japan and is a class above
10 Pat Lambie - 1 more chance to start IMO but if he doesn't step up here... being the stop-gap bench player is probably a fair position for him
11 Bryan Habana
12 Jan Serfontein - perect game for him IMO
13 Jaque Fourie - needs the game to get back 'into it' IMO
14 JPP - see Jaque Fourie. These are the perfect players for the NH conditions.
15 Willie le Roux - my pick of the 'new' guys looking at development

16 Oosthuizen
17 Adriaanse
18 Flip van der Merwe
19 Marcel Coetzee
20 Ruan Pienaar
21 Johan Goosen
22 JJ Engelbrecht

 

[Feicarsinn]

Who can forget Hampden Park's famous victory over Scotland all the way back in 1906?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Who can forget Hampden Park's famous victory over Scotland all the way back in 1906?

No, you are not going to Irish this thread!! Go and take this one rather; http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/32087-What-might-happen-in-the-rankings/page2

At least you deserve to take that one for climbing two spots.

 

[TRF_heineken]

So Morne Steyn is likely to be unavaiable and I expect HM would rather rest him than risk him if not 100% while HM has mentioned that he'd like to see what Bakkies Botha can contribute on the field at this stage for SA (http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,9817_9020882,00.html). Well, HM has already indicated that he'd like for most players to get a chance and then there is the game against France only 5 days after this one so a rotation policy makes sense. I think with the game against Wales still fresh in our minds and the announcement of the fianl matchday squad still a few days off this is the perfect time to speculate (even if you hate it, Hein!!)!

my picks would be:

1 Guthro Steenkamp - Beast needs a rest
2 Adriaan Strauss - rotating him and BdP seems to keep both hungry and I'd prefer Bissie to be fresh for France
3 Frans Malherbe - give the fat boy another run and see how he goes IMO as we need to develop options here
4 Bakkies Botha - Eben needs a rest/wake-up IMO and is slowly dropping standards
5 PS du Toit - because I want to see him start but probably not against france
6 Francois Louw (c)
7 Siya Kolisi - I want Alberts fresh for France
8 Duane Vermeulen - because we can't make wholesale changes even if Vermeulen could use an off-week
9 Fourie du Preez - because he should be fresh enough playing limited games in Japan and is a class above
10 Pat Lambie - 1 more chance to start IMO but if he doesn't step up here... being the stop-gap bench player is probably a fair position for him
11 Bryan Habana
12 Jan Serfontein - perect game for him IMO
13 Jaque Fourie - needs the game to get back 'into it' IMO
14 JPP - see Jaque Fourie. These are the perfect players for the NH conditions.
15 Willie le Roux - my pick of the 'new' guys looking at development

16 Oosthuizen
17 Adriaanse
18 Flip van der Merwe
19 Marcel Coetzee
20 Ruan Pienaar
21 Johan Goosen
22 JJ Engelbrecht

There should be no reason why HM won't pick an experimental side for this match as the squad are all capable of beating the Scots.

that said, I think the squad would look a bit like this:

1. Coenie Oosthuizen
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Frans Malherbe
4. Bakkies Botha
5. PSDT
6. Francois Louw
7. Siya Kolisi
8. Duane Vermeulen

9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Pat Lambie
11. JDV (because he is captain)
12. Jan Serfontein
13. Jaque Fourie
14. JPP
15. Willie Le Roux

16. Bismarck
17. Guthro Steenkamp
18. Louwrens Adriaanse
19. Eben Etzebeth
20. Willem Alberts
21. FdP
22. Johan Goosen
23. JJ Engelbrecht

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

But your side is even more experimental than mine? I mean experimental in terms of new combinations and giving the '2nd guy in line' a chance to start.

 

[TRF_heineken]

But your side is even more experimental than mine? I mean experimental in terms of new combinations and giving the '2nd guy in line' a chance to start.

Because he should.

But he I know he'll keep JDV in the team... But I really want Jan to play.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Because he should.

But he I know he'll keep JDV in the team... But I really want Jan to play.

I see I read your previous post incorrectly. Ja, I agree experimenting to some degree would be good here and I'm glad HM has mentioned that he would to some degree. It'll be interesting to see which route he goes.

 

[Big Ewis]

Scotland can look very capable and on top of a match against some opposition, but will look very vulnerable and soft against others. I think they lack girth and should be pounded. They looked really soft against England and France particularly in the last 6N (both away games), but for some reason decided to give S.A. a good run for their money last summer...in their own backyard.
?

They're not far from being a legitimately strong side, have quality players at certain positions but definitely need some more pieces to fill the puzzle more globally. And their good win against Japan doesn't mean a lot, they can still take a pounding this week regardless, like I said they seem to mesh well against some sides.
I really don't see a Scottish win in the making here, really don't...BUT: S.A. have looked vulnerable at times, they're not stoically almighty. Their defense isn't as good as other sides' for example.

 

[big ginger 8]

I want to see Pienaar at 10 just to see the reaction.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I want to see Pienaar at 10 just to see the reaction.

I nearly shat myself but then remembered that Steyn is injured, Goosen has played 20 minutes in a year and a half and Lambie is limited so actually not a bad call if that meant FdP would still start at 9 and we'd have someone else covering him on the bench. That said the bowel movement has been initiated so if you'll excuse me..

 

[Draggs]

I'd take a half fit Goosen over Pienaar. I think we'd have to get down to Elton before I'd start Ruin.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Line up only to be announced on Thursday T_T

Draggs, this is no place to mention he who should not be named. I think he showed that he is more of a liability than an asset in tight and/or structured games.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Line up only to be announced on Thursday T_T

Draggs, this is no place to mention he who should not be named. I think he showed that he is more of a liability than an asset in tight and/or structured games.

Voldemort??

It's going to be very weird to watch a Bok game on a Sunday...

 

[Gena_ZA]

HM said at the start of this tour that Goosen will not play at all and will not risk him.
So let's play our Morne and hope no one runs at him like the All Blacks did and concede two tries, better play Lambie

 

[Gena_ZA]

Scotland can look very capable and on top of a match against some opposition, but will look very vulnerable and soft against others. I think they lack girth and should be pounded. They looked really soft against England and France particularly in the last 6N (both away games), but for some reason decided to give S.A. a good run for their money last summer...in their own backyard.
?

They're not far from being a legitimately strong side, have quality players at certain positions but definitely need some more pieces to fill the puzzle more globally. And their good win against Japan doesn't mean a lot, they can still take a pounding this week regardless, like I said they seem to mesh well against some sides.
I really don't see a Scottish win in the making here, really don't...BUT: S.A. have looked vulnerable at times, they're not stoically almighty. Their defense isn't as good as other sides' for example.

Right let's be honest about that game in the backyard in South Africa.
On the day we had a ref that new as much about the offside line in a ruck as Kirsten Steward knows about a natural smile.
Had that been officiated properly they would have gotten a proper beating.
But in hind sight these types of officiating is making us more aware and stronger in a sense.
We speak again after this game

 

[TRF_heineken]

Right let's be honest about that game in the backyard in South Africa.
On the day we had a ref that new as much about the offside line in a ruck as Kirsten Steward knows about a natural smile.
Had that been officiated properly they would have gotten a proper beating.
But in hind sight these types of officiating is making us more aware and stronger in a sense.
We speak again after this game

And he was French!! Romain Toite!!

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

How wonderful to give Goosen a free holiday to Europe.

 

[Big Ewis]

Right let's be honest about that game in the backyard in South Africa.
On the day we had a ref that new as much about the offside line in a ruck as Kirsten Steward knows about a natural smile.
Had that been officiated properly they would have gotten a proper beating.
But in hind sight these types of officiating is making us more aware and stronger in a sense.
We speak again after this game

:lol: sure pal, you must be right.

 

[Gena_ZA]

not me, ask the rugby community Mr Froggy

 

[Big Ewis]

not me, ask the rugby community Mr Froggy

No my friend, the Rugby community will not say that the result in South Africa is 100% due to refereeing, only some of the South Africans will say that, rest assured, don't kid yourself.
The rest of us will say Bryan Habana was pretty much single-handedly responsible for the 2 tries he scored - will accept NZ still put 40 on SA in their own fortress, including a comfortable wide-open try by Read when they were down 14 men, and were a class above their hosts, especially in the second half.

And the Rugby community would also state as it is very obvious for a neutral who isn't so biased he doesn't see the limpid reality that France defended much better than South Africa did against NZ. Don't take it as an offense, it's merely a fact I present to you. For God's sake, could you just accept that ?? Your bias is turning on the ridiculous.
I'll say this, because I'm sure it will play a role in your accepting my post: South Africa are a better team than France for sure, and they may beat us at home well. But the point is France played NZ much better than SA did this year at home.

What bad faith to blame it all on the ref when there were 80 whole minutes of action apiece from both matches where obviously the one team played better than the other against NZ. It's pretty ridiculous :lol:

 

[TRF_heineken]

No my friend, the Rugby community will not say that the result in South Africa is 100% due to refereeing, only some of the South Africans will say that, rest assured, don't kid yourself.
The rest of us will say Bryan Habana was pretty much single-handedly responsible for the 2 tries he scored - will accept NZ still put 40 on SA in their own fortress, including a comfortable wide-open try by Read when they were down 14 men, and were a class above their hosts, especially in the second half.

And the Rugby community would also state as it is very obvious for a neutral who isn't so biased he doesn't see the limpid reality that France defended much better than South Africa did against NZ. Don't take it as an offense, it's merely a fact I present to you. For God's sake, could you just accept that ?? Your bias is turning on the ridiculous.
I'll say this, because I'm sure it will play a role in your accepting my post: South Africa are a better team than France for sure, and they may beat us at home well. But the point is France played NZ much better than SA did this year at home.

What bad faith to blame it all on the ref when there were 80 whole minutes of action apiece from both matches where obviously the one team played better than the other against NZ. It's pretty ridiculous :lol:

Err.... Habana didn't score 2 tries in that game against the Scots... It was JJ Engelbrecht that scored in the corner and in the final play of the game Jan Serfontein powered over...

 

[Big Ewis]

Err.... Habana didn't score 2 tries in that game against the Scots... It was JJ Engelbrecht that scored in the corner and in the final play of the game Jan Serfontein powered over...

well I was obviously talking about the NZ game, my mistake, sorry for the lost time. I thought he was talking about the NZ game for some reason...I'm very, very tired.

Oh, well the match about Scotland...well it's still unfair to reduce it to the refereeing, Scotland played admirably that day...S.A. had a huge scrum advantage (pen try), better backs too and still more than hung in there, in South Africa.

 

[TRF_heineken]

well I was obviously talking about the NZ game, my mistake, sorry for the lost time. I thought he was talking about the NZ game for some reason...I'm very, very tired.

Oh, well the match about Scotland...well it's still unfair to reduce it to the refereeing, Scotland played admirably that day...S.A. had a huge scrum advantage (pen try), better backs too and still more than hung in there, in South Africa.

And yet the common denominator in both thoses matches are:
The Boks
The Ref...

 

[Gena_ZA]

No my friend, the Rugby community will not say that the result in South Africa is 100% due to refereeing, only some of the South Africans will say that, rest assured, don't kid yourself.
The rest of us will say Bryan Habana was pretty much single-handedly responsible for the 2 tries he scored - will accept NZ still put 40 on SA in their own fortress, including a comfortable wide-open try by Read when they were down 14 men, and were a class above their hosts, especially in the second half.

And the Rugby community would also state as it is very obvious for a neutral who isn't so biased he doesn't see the limpid reality that France defended much better than South Africa did against NZ. Don't take it as an offense, it's merely a fact I present to you. For God's sake, could you just accept that ?? Your bias is turning on the ridiculous.
I'll say this, because I'm sure it will play a role in your accepting my post: South Africa are a better team than France for sure, and they may beat us at home well. But the point is France played NZ much better than SA did this year at home.

What bad faith to blame it all on the ref when there were 80 whole minutes of action apiece from both matches where obviously the one team played better than the other against NZ. It's pretty ridiculous :lol:

now calm the F down mister, I was just referring to the ref in that game based on your statement that they nearly rolled us over in our own backyaurd
Nothing more and nothing less, no bias, no nothing, so chill
No need to pull in all arguments to counter me, I did not make any statements, if you are so neutral, be objective as well please

 

[Gena_ZA]

it seems you did not understand me reading all your attacking posts again - never did I refer or compare SA/France and the mighty All Blacsk - SA vs. Scotland - kinda the main topic here, was what I commented on.
Now go on and degrade me even more, seems you get a kick out of it

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

The 10 Springboks who were awarded long-term contracts are: Willem Alberts, Jean de Villiers, Bismarck du Plessis, Jannie du Plessis, Eben Etzebeth, Siya Kolisi, Tendai Mtawarira, Frans Steyn, Adriaan Strauss and Duane Vermeulen.

JdP.... argh. Maybe he comes back better after injury/rest. Frans Steyn. Interesting.

 

[Big Ewis]

it seems you did not understand me reading all your attacking posts again - never did I refer or compare SA/France and the mighty All Blacsk - SA vs. Scotland - kinda the main topic here, was what I commented on.
Now go on and degrade me even more, seems you get a kick out of it

dude, I apologize for my confusion. I said I was sorry, I said I was very tired. Let's forget this. No, I'm not pathetic enough to pick fights online on purpose, no "kick out of it" :lol: it bores me if you want to know.
What I said about the S.A. NZ match stands though. I understand that wasn't your comment, but I have seen this before about that match so I was just reacting to seeing it again (or so I thought).

And about the SA SCO match: you ARE much too sensitive and biased, I merely said Scotland "gave them a good run for their money", which was the case. I've seen the match you see, so I couldn't care less about ref this ref that, as far as I'm concerned did Scotland play a fantastic match ? Sure did. Then if you say the ref was hellsent and wtvr, sure, maybe. But Scotland definitely played fantastic out there, again, esp. given the fact they had very little to compete with on paper VS South Africa, and with the scrum disadvantage in particular.

You don't see it, but you take what I say much farther than it actually is going. Your pride for the Boks is so strong you think ppl are saying things they aren't actually saying.

To this affirmation, can I ask you in one sentence what you respond:
Scotland, last summer in SA, gave the Boks a very good fight, responded to the physical assault SA was throwing at them, and given the two rosters on paper fought admirably for 80 minutes.

Yes, no ?

 

[Gena_ZA]

sure love, whatever blows your hair back
Excuse me for not replying, just lost interest in you and what you have to say

 

[Big Ewis]

sure love, whatever blows your hair back
Excuse me for not replying, just lost interest in you and what you have to say

I'm asking a simple question, which is 100% a topic that you brought here (SA SCO match) which I only eluded to in very fair and objective terms - saying Scotland played admirably well in S.A.
I haven't attacked you or insulted you, only reacted to what you gave me. You've kept calling me names "Mr Froggy" "love" etc...since I tried to reason with you here, and now you send me bad rep, insult me further and still won't answer a simple question I ask you, because you've "lost interest" from a topic you've precipitated yourself.

Unfair, unjustifiable.
Your personal flaws surface as you're vexed from the very topic, that it's a lot more than just some ref's whistle that gave Scotland its 17 points, and allowed them to hold for 80 whole minutes.
You've attacked me personally and completely forgotten this was a forum, made to debate, and that's the only thing I was offering to do.