11 kids from rugby team killed a guy in a brawl creating national outrage

[petite]

HI everybody.
11 boys from rugby team killed a guy in a brawl in the beach town of villa gesell. people and press gone crazy.
there's a video of the murder and there are at least 3 of them clearly beating a defenceless guy on the floor. leaving him unconscious.
this adds to many violent situations from rugby boys including a few other murders.
the madia and lots of people pointing their fingers to the sport.
besides the uncorfotable generalisation ( nobody asks what sport others offenders play) must admit a pattern of violence here. is this so in other rugby nations. are english/ nz SA societies pointing at the sport as a source of violence? do you have this sort of incidentes?
many here ralate the rugby playing to an economic and social elite often asociatted with legal impunity and macho power displays resulting in cases of beatings sexual abuse and even murder like in this case.

 

[bushytop]

Wow, that is horrible... and unexpected!

There is always a degree of violence whenever you get large amounts of people together who a) are consuming alcohol and b) representing/supporting a competitive team structure... but the incident you have described takes it way over what I've come to expect in Wales.

The majority of violence derived from sport has always been to do with football in Britain. You don't hear so much about it in the mainstream media anymore (conveniently) but I know guys who are well in to their football and there are always videos circulating involving 'hooligan'-esque activities.

I'd imagine that the public and political sphere's are probably very anti-rugby at the moment in Argentina, which is a shame but from the way you described the incident... difficult to defend.

 

[petite]

yes football is always the bad boy. but it's not so much by the players as it is from fans.
think that rugby has an image of virtue self perception at least. codes honor and values which are always memtioned in contrast to football. and when these things happen all the voices rise to acuse the sport of hipocrecy. and they have some point must say. but it's too much. for each abuser there must be ten who don't abuse. feel that they use rugby as a scapegoat and try to blame the sport for all the society's unjustice and violence.

 

[bushytop]

yes football is always the bad boy. but it's not so much by the players as it is from fans.
think that rugby has an image of virtue self perception at least. codes honor and values which are always memtioned in contrast to football. and when these things happen all the voices rise to acuse the sport of hipocrecy. and they have some point must say. but it's too much. for each abuser there must be ten who don't abuse. feel that they use rugby as a scapegoat and try to blame the sport for all the society's unjustice and violence.

... and as football is so popular in Argentina, I bet all those soccer fans can't wait to dish the dirt on rugby when they get the chance (not defending the incident or sport just... I can imagine).

 

[petite]

... and as football is so popular in Argentina, I bet all those soccer fans can't wait to dish the dirt on rugby when they get the chance (not defending the incident or sport just... I can imagine).

on spot

 

[The Seeker]

I'm sorry to hear about the brawl and killing. It's shocking and very sad.

 

[bushytop]

on spot

It doesn't help the family of the victim here but for every one of these stories (in fairness this is the only one I've heard but you've indicated that there are more) there are many positive rugby stories.

I watched this the other day and (although I'm probably biased) imo is far more indicative of how rugby effects society.



I saw a similar documentary about how it has positively affected Georgia (to a much greater degree actually) but it was on Sky Sports and isn't on YouTube.

 

[petite]

yes of cousre! we have a proyect here called los espartanos a rugby team born in 2009 in a prison. since it's foundation it grew to other prisons in the country and became very successful in reducing the rates of
recidivism from around 80% to just 5%. the model earned several awards including WRs.
the whole idea was exported to other countries aswell. the foundation that runs the team an ong also provides support and job training for the inmates. it's in fact a great proyect. but nobody seems to remember those positives right now

 

[petite]

yes of cousre! we have a proyect here called los espartanos a rugby team born in 2009 in a prison. since it's foundation it grew to other prisons in the country and became very successful in reducing the rates of
recidivism from around 80% to just 5%. the model earned several awards including WRs.
the whole idea was exported to other countries aswell. the foundation that runs the team an ong also provides support and job training for the inmates. it's in fact a great proyect. but nobody seems to remember those positives right now

 

[TRF_heineken]

In South Africa we do get the occasional brawl in the amateurs but not in the professional matches, and hardly in the high school matches.

But the sport isn't necessarily the reason for the violence as the cause of the brawl is sometimes non-rugby related triggers such as racism and gang affiliation.

What I mean by this is best illustrated through examples:

• Racism: A white person tackles a black person and makes a derogatory/racist comment towards the black person, causing the black person to retaliate. Or vice versa.
• Gang-related: Mostly this happens in the cape, where members of gangs have tattoos or some form of insignia to show they are in a specified gang, and they play against a team whose players are from another gang, which results in a turf-war like brawl to show their loyalty and commitment to their gang.

The sport isn't the cause for the violence, but the sport is used as a mechanism to help people deal with anger/rage, but it is up to every person who plays the sport, to respect the game, the players and officials and stay within the framework of the sport. Fights and brawls usually result in a banning of the people involved from the sport, and the zero tolerance of such behaviour is universal.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

That's pretty bad and scary. I can't say I've seen or heard of pack violence on the part of members of a rugby team in New Zealand, except on the field.

occasionally, or more than occasionally, we hear of promising young rugby players committing assault crimes. I don't know if this is out of proportion or just media thinks it's a bigger story if they are a promising young rugby player. Domestic violence is not uncommon on the part of rugby players either. Not so much about the sport as it is about the sub cultures of people playing the sport.

 

[petite]

In South Africa we do get the occasional brawl in the amateurs but not in the professional matches, and hardly in the high school matches.

But the sport isn't necessarily the reason for the violence as the cause of the brawl is sometimes non-rugby related triggers such as racism and gang affiliation.

What I mean by this is best illustrated through examples:

• Racism: A white person tackles a black person and makes a derogatory/racist comment towards the black person, causing the black person to retaliate. Or vice versa.
• Gang-related: Mostly this happens in the cape, where members of gangs have tattoos or some form of insignia to show they are in a specified gang, and they play against a team whose players are from another gang, which results in a turf-war like brawl to show their loyalty and commitment to their gang.

The sport isn't the cause for the violence, but the sport is used as a mechanism to help people deal with anger/rage, but it is up to every person who plays the sport, to respect the game, the players and officials and stay within the framework of the sport. Fights and brawls usually result in a banning of the people involved from the sport, and the zero tolerance of such behaviour is universal.

it's quite different here cos these browls happen off the field. they do happem during the games but hardly escalate. and nor the media or general public cares too much. they rarely appear on the news. think cos it's only among players and no "inocents" are hurt there's not much concern.
these incidents a mostly in night clubs generally mixed with alcohol abuse, where players abuse weaker non trained kids who are no fiscal match for them. they also act as a team. any argument arises they jump in in mass ( like in the field) not caring much about what happened. the result are some serious injuries to often smaller, not trained, outnumbered kids.
the madia Wil call these rugbier gangs. many of these are rich kids with influential parents and often escape the legal consequences.
bringing more outrage. as people can't figure out what they feel is unmotivated violence or just for fun violence. not motivated for instance, in a lack of money ( robery)
it looks different from what you describe in NZ where the sport is more popular and open to all social clases

 

[TRF_heineken]

it's quite different here cos these browls happen off the field. they do happem during the games but hardly escalate. and nor the media or general public cares too much. they rarely appear on the news. think cos it's only among players and no "inocents" are hurt there's not much concern.
these incidents a mostly in night clubs generally mixed with alcohol abuse, where players abuse weaker non trained kids who are no fiscal match for them. they also act as a team. any argument arises they jump in in mass ( like in the field) not caring much about what happened. the result are some serious injuries to often smaller, not trained, outnumbered kids.
the madia Wil call these rugbier gangs. many of these are rich kids with influential parents and often escape the legal consequences.
bringing more outrage. as people can't figure out what they feel is unmotivated violence or just for fun violence. not motivated for instance, in a lack of money ( robery)
it looks different from what you describe in NZ where the sport is more popular and open to all social clases

The only link between the sport and the incident is then that the people involved all play for the same team. But it would be very premature to say that the sport caused the brawl which lead to the death of a person. The alcohol, bad influence of older people, carelessness are bigger topics to be addressed than that the kids all play rugby together and the sport is the reason for the violence.

 

[petite]

The only link between the sport and the incident is then that the people involved all play for the same team. But it would be very premature to say that the sport caused the brawl which lead to the death of a person. The alcohol, bad influence of older people, carelessness are bigger topics to be addressed than that the kids all play rugby together and the sport is the reason for the violence.

agreed. what I've been saying. if the play racket ball nobody would mention it. but must say there is a pattern cos episodes do repeat. but it is a clear case of stigmatization[

 

[bushytop]

agreed. what I've been saying if the play racket ball nobody would mention it. but must say there is a pattern cos episodes do repeat. but it is a clear case of stigmatization[

Those racket-ball boys can be viscous mind...

 

[FNS]

here it was 10 retards in drunk in night club. Hope they all get life sentesce as warning for others.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

The problem has nothing to do with rugby itself.
Rugby, at least in Arg, is a sport that generates more cohesion among a team at a personal level. Your group of friends tend to correlate a LOT more with the people who play with you in rugby than in most other sports (again, at least in Arg). That has a few of unintended and potentially drastic consequences.
People who play, say, basketball for a club, go, train 1/2 a week, play on the weekend and that is, on average, how much they see each other. People who play rugby tend to socialize outside the sport a LOT more. That means that it is very common for them to go out in large groups.
So:
-Large groups
-relatively fit and big people
-alcohol

When you put all that together, it can turn quite nasty. And it's not that they go out looking for fights (some do), but even if you don't, they find themselves in a position where they have very few incentives to back down and town things down.

And what happened in this case is nothing new. The only difference is someone was unlucky and died. Kicks like that happen and have been happening for as long as i can remember. Agustin Pichot, mr rugby values 2020, back in the day was known in his neighborhood for having kicked someone on the ground in the head. Once you start kicking people's head while they are on the ground/on 4s, all bets are off and it becomes a matter of, for the lack of a better word, luck.
If the person dies/considerable and irreversible damage occurs, it's a tragedy, and every news station will pick up the story. If the exact same kick lands say, one cm away and the damage is not as visible/permanent, it becomes a non-issue. No one gives a *****.

Personally i think the guys are morons and deserve most of what is coming their way. I do not believe they went out that night thinking "let's kill someone" as the prosecution is arguing and as most of society appears to believe (at least when u watch main news channels).
These are very stupid people who made a serious of very bad, reckless and terrible decisions which ended up in someone else dying. A tragedy, by every single definition of the word. Fights like this one happen every single weekend on every single neighborhood.

Prison inmates are recording and releasing them into soc media saying the rugby players will be cordially welcomed to the facilities. People are laughing. People are laughing at the prospect of 10 19/20 year olds getting gang-raped the minute the enter prison and they are posting videos about it on soc media. This saddens me on so many levels i don't know where to begin.
You cannot watch a news show without someone blaming the white cisgender heteropatriarchy and its armed wing, rugby players. I kid you not.
We have congressmen proposing laws that make rugby players as liable as someone carrying a gun/knife.
We have news anchors blaming clubs for not doing enough. We have the same morons blaming the rugby federation. I kid you not. They are calling them kids. Parents, club, teachers, society, government, coaches, everyone is responsible, which means no one is responsible. They wanted to blame the bloody bouncers for this.

The level of hypocrisy is hard to explain. Again, this makes me so sad on so many levels.
/end rant.

 

[petite]

The problem has nothing to do with rugby itself.
Rugby, at least in Arg, is a sport that generates more cohesion among a team at a personal level. Your group of friends tend to correlate a LOT more with the people who play with you in rugby than in most other sports (again, at least in Arg). That has a few of unintended and potentially drastic consequences.
People who play, say, basketball for a club, go, train 1/2 a week, play on the weekend and that is, on average, how much they see each other. People who play rugby tend to socialize outside the sport a LOT more. That means that it is very common for them to go out in large groups.
So:
-Large groups
-relatively fit and big people
-alcohol

When you put all that together, it can turn quite nasty. And it's not that they go out looking for fights (some do), but even if you don't, they find themselves in a position where they have very few incentives to back down and town things down.

And what happened in this case is nothing new. The only difference is someone was unlucky and died. Kicks like that happen and have been happening for as long as i can remember. Agustin Pichot, mr rugby values 2020, back in the day was known in his neighborhood for having kicked someone on the ground in the head. Once you start kicking people's head while they are on the ground/on 4s, all bets are off and it becomes a matter of, for the lack of a better word, luck.
If the person dies/considerable and irreversible damage occurs, it's a tragedy, and every news station will pick up the story. If the exact same kick lands say, one cm away and the damage is not as visible/permanent, it becomes a non-issue. No one gives a *****.

Personally i think the guys are morons and deserve most of what is coming their way. I do not believe they went out that night thinking "let's kill someone" as the prosecution is arguing and as most of society appears to believe (at least when u watch main news channels).
These are very stupid people who made a serious of very bad, reckless and terrible decisions which ended up in someone else dying. A tragedy, by every single definition of the word. Fights like this one happen every single weekend on every single neighborhood.

Prison inmates are recording and releasing them into soc media saying the rugby players will be cordially welcomed to the facilities. People are laughing. People are laughing at the prospect of 10 19/20 year olds getting gang-raped the minute the enter prison and they are posting videos about it on soc media. This saddens me on so many levels i don't know where to begin.
You cannot watch a news show without someone blaming the white cisgender heteropatriarchy and its armed wing, rugby players. I kid you not.
We have congressmen proposing laws that make rugby players as liable as someone carrying a gun/knife.
We have news anchors blaming clubs for not doing enough. We have the same morons blaming the rugby federation. I kid you not. They are calling them kids. Parents, club, teachers, society, government, coaches, everyone is responsible, which means no one is responsible. They wanted to blame the bloody bouncers for this.

The level of hypocrisy is hard to explain. Again, this makes me so sad on so many levels.
/end rant.

I agree in almost everything. but although you can't blame rugby alone, there is a toxic macho culture where the crazy tough man who kicks ass is celebrated. I remember as a kid the stories of another Mr values serafín dengra, (appeared on tv talking about the case and condemning these guys) going to the getto and fighting random " villeros" the behavior was widely celebrated. in a moment where masculinity is being reviewed everywhere think rugby must do its own process. this doesn't mean as you say that the crazy madía generalization is right. it's crazy and looks like a wich hunt. the pattern of youth violence is wider than rugby. the process u point of boys taking their friendship out of the field also has to do with social class. so I will add that to de ecuation of youth alcohol etc.(the guys where calling "negro de mierda" to the boy as the kick him on the floor)
the kids who did this are very difficult to defend but like you, don't think they where thinking of killing someone. As the media and many people are accusing, and the whole idea of them being abused in prison is just part of the same culture that produced the incident in the first place. and then seeing people and the media happy about it, is so disturbing and makes any attempt of learning from this as a society a complete utopy.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I agree in almost everything. but although you can't blame rugby alone, there is a toxic macho culture where the crazy tough man who kicks ass is celebrated. I remember as a kid the stories of another Mr values serafín dengra, (appeared on tv talking about the case and condemning these guys) going to the getto and fighting random " villeros" the behavior was widely celebrated. in a moment where masculinity is being reviewed everywhere think rugby must do its own process. this doesn't mean as you say that the crazy madía generalization is right. it's crazy and looks like a wich hunt. the pattern of youth violence is wider than rugby. the process u point of boys taking their friendship out of the field also has to do with social class. so I will add that to de ecuation of youth alcohol etc.(the guys where calling "negro de mierda" to the boy as the kick him on the floor)
the kids who did this are very difficult to defend but like you, don't think they where thinking of killing someone. As the media and many people are accusing, and the whole idea of them being abused in prison is just part of the same culture that produced the incident in the first place. and then seeing people and the media happy about it, is so disturbing and makes any attempt of learning from this as a society a complete utopy.

I think rugby is one of the few sports in the world that helps make people more gentlemenly and compassionate. The coaches and administrators are all most of the time very decent people who don't condone violence. And in many situations, rugby is used as an outlet to release rage or anger in a positive manner.

Alcohol on the other hand makes people do crazy things. I think the Waterkloof-4 incident a couple of years ago is prime example of this. What happened there, was 4 schoolboys whose parents are relatively rich, went on a drinking spree, and then as they were walking down the road, they assaulted a homeless man, and then the homeless man passed away because of the injuries he sustained. All 4 of them served prison time for this, and there was an outrage from the community also blaming the sport, but more the school and the money/power influence these kids have grown accustomed to.

Abuse in prison is again part of the system, and that is universal. But that is more an issue for the justice system/correctional services and there is no clear way to make it easier on them. But then again, some say the abuse in prison is partially part of their punishment.

I also think that they didn't had the intention to kill someone, as it would then have been premeditated murder. For me this is more negligent homicide, in that they assaulted him so badly, it lead to his death, but also, the kids involved didn't/couldn't foresee that it might happen, and the alcohol is partly to blame for that.

 

[petite]

I think rugby is one of the few sports in the world that helps make people more gentlemenly and compassionate. The coaches and administrators are all most of the time very decent people who don't condone violence. And in many situations, rugby is used as an outlet to release rage or anger in a positive manner.

Alcohol on the other hand makes people do crazy things. I think the Waterkloof-4 incident a couple of years ago is prime example of this. What happened there, was 4 schoolboys whose parents are relatively rich, went on a drinking spree, and then as they were walking down the road, they assaulted a homeless man, and then the homeless man passed away because of the injuries he sustained. All 4 of them served prison time for this, and there was an outrage from the community also blaming the sport, but more the school and the money/power influence these kids have grown accustomed to.

Abuse in prison is again part of the system, and that is universal. But that is more an issue for the justice system/correctional services and there is no clear way to make it easier on them. But then again, some say the abuse in prison is partially part of their punishment.

I also think that they didn't had the intention to kill someone, as it would then have been premeditated murder. For me this is more negligent homicide, in that they assaulted him so badly, it lead to his death, but also, the kids involved didn't/couldn't foresee that it might happen, and the alcohol is partly to blame for that.

I was only talking about rugby in Argentina. I know it's different in other places. and of course agree there's good in it as I said in previous posts.
the lawyers here arte going for premeditated murder in this case. it's a long story and rekon they do have a point. but don't think it was. it's more about social pressure I guess.
the raping in prison is not a justice problem alone. it's the reflection of what happens in society.