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15 minutes for red card?

ratsapprentice

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Can't tell whether that proposal meant that the red carded player can return after the time or replaced.

I think the "white card" proposal, whereby the player is binned but can be replaced is the way to go.
 

BrokenWing

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Replaced I think. An intermediate card would make more sense than only being a man down for 15 minutes for anything more serious than a yellow.
 

Which Tyler

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Can't tell whether that proposal meant that the red carded player can return after the time or replaced.

I think the "white card" proposal, whereby the player is binned but can be replaced is the way to go.
Agreed, a red carded player has been sent off because they s done something beyond the pale. They should not be allowed back on. The pitch again, though I don't mind a replacement coming on after a longer period with 14 men.

I also like the suggestion that any carded player gets TMO review whilst they're off, and the TMO decides the colour of the card.

Between those 2 things, we can stop the game for a shorter time, and a red card is much less likely to decide the match itself. Meaning that officials will be less scared of issuing them in then first place.
 

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So long as the player is replaced by someone else and can't just come back on themselves I'm on board with this.
 

BrokenWing

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I think that the prospect of your team being a man down for the rest of the game is the main deterrent in it though. Could make players more likely to commit offences knowing that the team will only be down for slightly longer than a yellow.
 

scotty507

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On board with an intermediate card being added with this punishment. But not red card being changed.
What i think (not that it matters)

Yellow stays the same. 10min

'White card' or any colour, clear reds but with some mitgating circumstances. 15min, may be replaced after (although id say 20 min)

Red card, for dangerous or reckless acts with no mitigating circumstances. Player is off.

Mitigating circumstances for me would be an illegal clear out without arms at a ruck, Yellow. he makes contact with the head, dangerous, makes it Red. Only made conact with head because player was falling yet it was still reckless, Takes it down to White.
 

Radsy

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Odd how little support this idea got on here when a random poster from Canada suggested it here a month ago.
 

Rinkadink

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Just seems needlessly complex, don't think it would add anything to the game.

Unless it means we get a bit of biff back in which case I'm probably in. EG; punch up = white.
 

smartcooky

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I have long believed that a sending off (with the team going down to 14 players for the rest of the match) should be reserved for for really serious, intentional foul play... the stuff that gets you a four week entry level sanction at the judiciary.
My proposal would be

Black Card - Biting, eye-gouging, bag-snatching, vilification, spitting, kicking, head butting and abuse of match officials - the player is not replaced
Red Card - all other acts of foul play - the player is sent off and is replaced after 20 minutes.
Yellow Card - as now, the player is temporarily suspended and may return after 10 minutes
 

scotty507

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I have long believed that a sending off (with the team going down to 14 players for the rest of the match) should be reserved for for really serious, intentional foul play... the stuff that gets you a four week entry level sanction at the judiciary.
My proposal would be

Black Card - Biting, eye-gouging, bag-snatching, vilification, spitting, kicking, head butting and abuse of match officials - the player is not replaced
Red Card - all other acts of foul play - the player is sent off and is replaced after 20 minutes.
Yellow Card - as now, the player is temporarily suspended and may return after 10 minutes
I agree although i think keep red high level card. WhT i said in my earlier post was slightly different being a card inbetween for clear reds but with mitigating circumstances and the red cards being for clear reds so that covers your worse ones or dangerous ones.

But i really do like the idea i just dont like the idea of changing yellows or red cards if we only have 2 cards.
 

Johnny Storm

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I have long believed that a sending off (with the team going down to 14 players for the rest of the match) should be reserved for for really serious, intentional foul play... the stuff that gets you a four week entry level sanction at the judiciary.
My proposal would be

Black Card - Biting, eye-gouging, bag-snatching, vilification, spitting, kicking, head butting and abuse of match officials - the player is not replaced
Red Card - all other acts of foul play - the player is sent off and is replaced after 20 minutes.
Yellow Card - as now, the player is temporarily suspended and may return after 10 minutes

These are very good suggestions.

What about the idea of punishments being carried over into the next game i.e:
A yellow card in the last minute means the tream plays with 14 players for the first 9 minutes of their next game, similar for red to make sure that players don't try things on at the end of a match
 

scotty507

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These are very good suggestions.

What about the idea of punishments being carried over into the next game i.e:
A yellow card in the last minute means the tream plays with 14 players for the first 9 minutes of their next game, similar for red to make sure that players don't try things on at the end of a match
Yes but at the end of the games we will just get 10 min of pick and go with no aim but to keep possesion to run down the clock. And i just dont agree with this as YC is a low end punishment with no repercussions. And RC normally lead to a Citing so it doesnt need to carry IMO
 

Umaga's Witness

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Odd how little support this idea got on here when a random poster from Canada suggested it here a month ago.
where's Canada?
I have long believed that a sending off (with the team going down to 14 players for the rest of the match) should be reserved for for really serious, intentional foul play... the stuff that gets you a four week entry level sanction at the judiciary.
My proposal would be

Black Card - Biting, eye-gouging, bag-snatching, vilification, spitting, kicking, head butting and abuse of match officials - the player is not replaced
Red Card - all other acts of foul play - the player is sent off and is replaced after 20 minutes.
Yellow Card - as now, the player is temporarily suspended and may return after 10 minutes
i would add to the black card any dangerous play WITH intent, e.g. taking out a player in teh air, deliberate spear tackle, deliberately charging your shoulder into someones head.
 

ragerancher

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I'd like it if there was more differentiation between foul play and cynical play. At risk of over complicating an already complicated set of laws and interpretations, I'd personally quite like the following:

White card - For cynical play. 5 mins in the bin. Intended for use against teams who are infringing on their own try line without the severity of a yellow. Can be given out a bit more easily. 2 white cards becomes a yellow.
Yellow - As present
Red - 20 mins in the bin and player can be replaced as a sub. If no suitable sub is available then the team goes down a player.
Black - Reserved solely for the worst foul play where a player is reckless and when there are no mitigating circumstances. Player leaves the field and automatic citing.

I may have this completely wrong but it seems like the guidance is a bit too rigid and refs are sometimes not keen on giving out a card that they feel may be too much of a punishment and risk being criticised for deciding the outcome. A lot of cynical play goes suitably unpunished, particularly when it comes down to conceding penalties defending the try line before a yellow is actually given. It also seems that the problem is the refs being able to spot offenses. The TMO is best placed to see the broad pictures and it may be worth having an assistant TMO so they can cover more offenses. A TMO should also be free to let the ref know of anything that is a potentially cardable offense rather than just foul play. When a TMO is analysing a decision though the emphasis should be on something being clear and obvious. A ref must always state the on field decision and the TMO would have 2 minutes to find any evidence to contradict that, if they cannot find clear and obvious evidence in that time, the on field decision stands.

The clock should stop for scrums until the ball is in and they should have the equivalent of "use it" for scrum setting up (and actually enforce the damn use it rule.)

Of course there is always the possibility this will make the whole thing an unwieldy clusterfuck and even worse than it is now but in my head it could work...
 

TRF_heineken

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I'd like it if there was more differentiation between foul play and cynical play. At risk of over complicating an already complicated set of laws and interpretations, I'd personally quite like the following:

White card - For cynical play. 5 mins in the bin. Intended for use against teams who are infringing on their own try line without the severity of a yellow. Can be given out a bit more easily. 2 white cards becomes a yellow.
Yellow - As present
Red - 20 mins in the bin and player can be replaced as a sub. If no suitable sub is available then the team goes down a player.
Black - Reserved solely for the worst foul play where a player is reckless and when there are no mitigating circumstances. Player leaves the field and automatic citing.

I may have this completely wrong but it seems like the guidance is a bit too rigid and refs are sometimes not keen on giving out a card that they feel may be too much of a punishment and risk being criticised for deciding the outcome. A lot of cynical play goes suitably unpunished, particularly when it comes down to conceding penalties defending the try line before a yellow is actually given. It also seems that the problem is the refs being able to spot offenses. The TMO is best placed to see the broad pictures and it may be worth having an assistant TMO so they can cover more offenses. A TMO should also be free to let the ref know of anything that is a potentially cardable offense rather than just foul play. When a TMO is analysing a decision though the emphasis should be on something being clear and obvious. A ref must always state the on field decision and the TMO would have 2 minutes to find any evidence to contradict that, if they cannot find clear and obvious evidence in that time, the on field decision stands.

The clock should stop for scrums until the ball is in and they should have the equivalent of "use it" for scrum setting up (and actually enforce the damn use it rule.)

Of course there is always the possibility this will make the whole thing an unwieldy clusterfuck and even worse than it is now but in my head it could work...
Why stop there? Let's give the referees a deck of cards, an Ace of Spades for an eye-gouge. 7 of Hearts if the ref has the feels for a player. 2 of Diamonds for not throwing straight...

Too many cards will make it overtechnical and way confusing. I'm quite happy with the yellow card thresholds for all the offences you can get. The real issue is the red card, and the impact it has a team in that a player won't return to the game.
 

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Keep things the way they are. The game is brilliant as it is.
 

rugga658

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Stupid Idea

I hope refs continue to send off players

Players adapt or get dropped

Coaches adapt or get sacked
 

ragerancher

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Why stop there? Let's give the referees a deck of cards, an Ace of Spades for an eye-gouge. 7 of Hearts if the ref has the feels for a player. 2 of Diamonds for not throwing straight...

Too many cards will make it overtechnical and way confusing. I'm quite happy with the yellow card thresholds for all the offences you can get. The real issue is the red card, and the impact it has a team in that a player won't return to the game.
It's possible to disagree without being a tit about it you know?

Main point is the extremes are where things are slipping through, red card offenses and repeated cynical offenses. Both of which are causing problems in the game. I was to see the extreme incidents properly punished but I'm also sick of teams getting away with lots of cynical play on their own line or in the scrum. If no new card is brought in to be a less severe and thus more readily handed out than a yellow then at the very least I'd like a definite limit on the number of penalties a side can concede defending their own try line before a card is issued. Wales gave away 3 or 4 penalties back to back defending against Australia and at that point an extra penalty is itself barely a punishment. If they can keep racking up the penalties without even a warning then as a spectator it gets very frustrating to watch. Likewise the front rows playing silly fuckers in the scrum.

Red card needs to be sorted for player safety but the lower end stuff needs to be sorted for the sanity of those watching.
 
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