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durbutter
Guest
Arse bandits. That is all.
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KZNSharksFan
Guest
You people joke about it so much that we have have to come to the conclusion that you really mean it
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durbutter
Guest
Well maybe we do. And then the AI's come around and we end up getting embarrassed. Except Munster against the All Blacks. Now that was a game. Can't believe that was nearly a year ago.
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Sir Speedy
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Oct 16 2009, 06:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
HOW THE HELL DOES LOGORRHEA DO IT? If he posted the above remark he'd have another two pages' worth of f*** you's.
Note how nobody fell for this.
HOW THE HELL DOES LOGORRHEA DO IT? If he posted the above remark he'd have another two pages' worth of f*** you's.
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Steve-o
Guest
What a role model he is to us all!
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Sir Speedy
Guest
Let his wisdom cultivate the minds of our children!
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Steve-o
Guest
Whoa, let's keep the cultivation bit there. We don't any lil grumpy Logorrhea's running around!
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gingergenius
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Oct 16 2009, 05:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
HOW THE HELL DOES LOGORRHEA DO IT? If he posted the above remark he'd have another two pages' worth of f*** you's.
[/b][/quote]
Ok, I'll fall. We win at history, in a socio-militar-economic-opressive sort of way. Beat us at history South Africa, go on, I dare you.
Note how nobody fell for this.
HOW THE HELL DOES LOGORRHEA DO IT? If he posted the above remark he'd have another two pages' worth of f*** you's.
[/b][/quote]
Ok, I'll fall. We win at history, in a socio-militar-economic-opressive sort of way. Beat us at history South Africa, go on, I dare you.
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Steve-o
Guest
:sex011:
That is all.
That is all.
M
monkeypigeon
Guest
Ok, though I usually avoid these irritating NH vs SH threads I'm going to comment anyway.
Firstly to the actual issue at hand. Though someone points it out now and then, it's about the peformance of a player at international level and not the team he's playing for.
However the team he (the player in question) is playing for can have an effect on both nominations and winner. I site the nomination of Sergio Parisse in recent years (or Keith Wood the year he won it) who perhaps might not have recieved such a nomination had he been in a more dominant pack. The fact he played so well in a fairly poor team is what makes him stand out.
So I consider one of the best points made in this thread, the suggestion that anyone would look well behind the current South African pack (well maybe not Luke Burgess). If we switched Fourie du Preez for Mike Phillips (who I think was the second best international scrum half this year by a long shot ahead of the rest) I think the outcome in the Lions series and the tri-nations would have been much the same.
O'Driscoll however I feel was unreplaceable. The next best second centre for me this year was probably Jaque Fourie, who though perhaps would have been just as effective (or even more so) in offensive open play, I don't think he would have made the Irish defense as inpenetrable in the backs department, turned over as much ball or scored that brilliant Flanker like try like O'Driscoll did when parked on the Welsh line.
Now Saffers are always the first to talk about the importance of leadership when they say that John Smit is the greatest hooker of all time (which I won't argue with here) but they conviently look past that when (admitidly only some do this) brush the idea of O'Driscoll winning aside.
All this said, Du Preez was almost perfect in every aspect of his game and so it should be between him and O'Driscoll and will be as close a decision as everyone with perspective.
Now, if we're going to argue over the quality of opposition, which I think does have some say in it (and this is where the NH vs SH crap started earlier) then I'll have my say in this too.
Firstly, anyone who tells me I don't know what I'm talking about can sod off. I've watched as much SH rugby as I could this year and more NH rugby than ever before aswell in the 08/09 season and most SH posters make it overtly obvious that they watch little or no NH rugby.
1) On the 6 Nations vs Tri Nations debate.
Sure there's better teams, that doesn't mean that each individual player is more talented or was up against a greater battle. Fact is, Du Preez played against Burgess twice (I think Genia played in the last match against South Africa) and against New Zealand a mixture of underperforming Leonard and Cowan while (as I've already said) his pack dominated.
Bod meanwhile didn't have the greatest of players infront of him except Shanklin (on his best form in years) and Yannick Jauzion who's in a brilliant player but came out tops and he was playing with a pack that only ever achieved any dominance due to Bod's help at the break down.
p.s The tri-nations definitely has better quality teams but everyone will admit the shedule is boring and the 6 nations as a competition (not always as individual matches) is more exciting.
2) Lions Tour
The Lions centre combo was the only thing that the lions dominated in and considering the quality of oposition there's no way anyone can deny that O'Driscoll (aswell as Roberts) was great. It's a testiment to his influnce that the second Test was lost at least partially due to him being taken off injured.
3) November Internationals.
Hasn't happened yet and Ireland Short a first line hooker could be a problem but there's no point in this arguement till after that. I'm hoping Ireland will beat Australia but I expect South Africa to win that match but it should help greatly in deciding who'll win the award.
Heineken Cup and Super 14 not Magners League or Currie Cup count so I'm not discussing that in this context.
However, in all the stupid NH vs SH bickering despite the fact I recognise the provocation by Loggerhea in particular there was only really one comment that actually ****** me off:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Oct 16 2009, 03:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
1. Yeah, brilliant in 100 and something years, an Irish National rugby team has never beat New Zealand. Perhaps the last 1 year of that is relevant and in that time, yes you've beaten us once when the team was in an all time confidence low. It's about as irritating a point as 'your mam'. Who ever said that this had anything to do with Irish Rugby being better than New Zealand rugby. They didn't.
2. Tipoki - Retired, Mafi - Should be dropped, Howlett - Yeah, great player, Willaims - Hasn't started a Heineken Cup match...I don't know if hes even come off the bench, JdV - Been poor (though I'm sure he'll improve), Cullen - retired for about 3 years and was rubbish. Your Point? And O'Connell their only 'half decent' Irish player? I'll presume that's trolling but I'll start listing: Jerry Flannery (better than Hore this year by a mile), Tomas O'Leary (better than Cowan/Leonard this year), Wallace, Leamy, O'Callaghan (underrated) and Earls and I'm not even naming the marginal ones.
3. Contepomi is gone, Necewa shouldn't be starting though he is good, Whitaker is retired, Van der Linde is usually injured and doesn't deserve to be starting at the moment. and Elsom as you well know is gone. So I don't get your point here at all.
4. I won't argue with the too much there except that nobody said that the Heineken Cup produces better players though I do say that it's Currie Cup, Air New Zealand Cup produce better players.
Someone else also said earlier on that though the HCup is bigger it has some poor teams I'd like to point out that though there's only 14 teams in the Super 14 the Cheetahs and the Reds are rubbish and the Lions ain't upto much either.
Not going to say one is better than the other though. To be honest there's not much difference between the quality to be honest. but the HCup has it on format again. Though that's moot now seeing as the format for Super 15 will be different.
Disclaimer: This wasn't intended to wind anyone up. Please allow for a bias factor of 0.3 in favour of Europe.
Firstly to the actual issue at hand. Though someone points it out now and then, it's about the peformance of a player at international level and not the team he's playing for.
However the team he (the player in question) is playing for can have an effect on both nominations and winner. I site the nomination of Sergio Parisse in recent years (or Keith Wood the year he won it) who perhaps might not have recieved such a nomination had he been in a more dominant pack. The fact he played so well in a fairly poor team is what makes him stand out.
So I consider one of the best points made in this thread, the suggestion that anyone would look well behind the current South African pack (well maybe not Luke Burgess). If we switched Fourie du Preez for Mike Phillips (who I think was the second best international scrum half this year by a long shot ahead of the rest) I think the outcome in the Lions series and the tri-nations would have been much the same.
O'Driscoll however I feel was unreplaceable. The next best second centre for me this year was probably Jaque Fourie, who though perhaps would have been just as effective (or even more so) in offensive open play, I don't think he would have made the Irish defense as inpenetrable in the backs department, turned over as much ball or scored that brilliant Flanker like try like O'Driscoll did when parked on the Welsh line.
Now Saffers are always the first to talk about the importance of leadership when they say that John Smit is the greatest hooker of all time (which I won't argue with here) but they conviently look past that when (admitidly only some do this) brush the idea of O'Driscoll winning aside.
All this said, Du Preez was almost perfect in every aspect of his game and so it should be between him and O'Driscoll and will be as close a decision as everyone with perspective.
Now, if we're going to argue over the quality of opposition, which I think does have some say in it (and this is where the NH vs SH crap started earlier) then I'll have my say in this too.
Firstly, anyone who tells me I don't know what I'm talking about can sod off. I've watched as much SH rugby as I could this year and more NH rugby than ever before aswell in the 08/09 season and most SH posters make it overtly obvious that they watch little or no NH rugby.
1) On the 6 Nations vs Tri Nations debate.
Sure there's better teams, that doesn't mean that each individual player is more talented or was up against a greater battle. Fact is, Du Preez played against Burgess twice (I think Genia played in the last match against South Africa) and against New Zealand a mixture of underperforming Leonard and Cowan while (as I've already said) his pack dominated.
Bod meanwhile didn't have the greatest of players infront of him except Shanklin (on his best form in years) and Yannick Jauzion who's in a brilliant player but came out tops and he was playing with a pack that only ever achieved any dominance due to Bod's help at the break down.
p.s The tri-nations definitely has better quality teams but everyone will admit the shedule is boring and the 6 nations as a competition (not always as individual matches) is more exciting.
2) Lions Tour
The Lions centre combo was the only thing that the lions dominated in and considering the quality of oposition there's no way anyone can deny that O'Driscoll (aswell as Roberts) was great. It's a testiment to his influnce that the second Test was lost at least partially due to him being taken off injured.
3) November Internationals.
Hasn't happened yet and Ireland Short a first line hooker could be a problem but there's no point in this arguement till after that. I'm hoping Ireland will beat Australia but I expect South Africa to win that match but it should help greatly in deciding who'll win the award.
Heineken Cup and Super 14 not Magners League or Currie Cup count so I'm not discussing that in this context.
However, in all the stupid NH vs SH bickering despite the fact I recognise the provocation by Loggerhea in particular there was only really one comment that actually ****** me off:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Oct 16 2009, 03:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
1. Yeah, brilliant in 100 and something years, an Irish National rugby team has never beat New Zealand. Perhaps the last 1 year of that is relevant and in that time, yes you've beaten us once when the team was in an all time confidence low. It's about as irritating a point as 'your mam'. Who ever said that this had anything to do with Irish Rugby being better than New Zealand rugby. They didn't.
2. Tipoki - Retired, Mafi - Should be dropped, Howlett - Yeah, great player, Willaims - Hasn't started a Heineken Cup match...I don't know if hes even come off the bench, JdV - Been poor (though I'm sure he'll improve), Cullen - retired for about 3 years and was rubbish. Your Point? And O'Connell their only 'half decent' Irish player? I'll presume that's trolling but I'll start listing: Jerry Flannery (better than Hore this year by a mile), Tomas O'Leary (better than Cowan/Leonard this year), Wallace, Leamy, O'Callaghan (underrated) and Earls and I'm not even naming the marginal ones.
3. Contepomi is gone, Necewa shouldn't be starting though he is good, Whitaker is retired, Van der Linde is usually injured and doesn't deserve to be starting at the moment. and Elsom as you well know is gone. So I don't get your point here at all.
4. I won't argue with the too much there except that nobody said that the Heineken Cup produces better players though I do say that it's Currie Cup, Air New Zealand Cup produce better players.
Someone else also said earlier on that though the HCup is bigger it has some poor teams I'd like to point out that though there's only 14 teams in the Super 14 the Cheetahs and the Reds are rubbish and the Lions ain't upto much either.
Not going to say one is better than the other though. To be honest there's not much difference between the quality to be honest. but the HCup has it on format again. Though that's moot now seeing as the format for Super 15 will be different.
Disclaimer: This wasn't intended to wind anyone up. Please allow for a bias factor of 0.3 in favour of Europe.
S
shazbooger
Guest
Provocation? me?
Bunch of numpties
Bunch of numpties
N
Nickdnz
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Monkeypigeon @ Oct 17 2009, 08:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
1. Yeah, brilliant in 100 and something years, an Irish National rugby team has never beat New Zealand. Perhaps the last 1 year of that is relevant and in that time, yes you've beaten us once when the team was in an all time confidence low. It's about as irritating a point as 'your mam'. Who ever said that this had anything to do with Irish Rugby being better than New Zealand rugby. They didn't.
2. Tipoki - Retired, Mafi - Should be dropped, Howlett - Yeah, great player, Willaims - Hasn't started a Heineken Cup match...I don't know if hes even come off the bench, JdV - Been poor (though I'm sure he'll improve), Cullen - retired for about 3 years and was rubbish. Your Point? And O'Connell their only 'half decent' Irish player? I'll presume that's trolling but I'll start listing: Jerry Flannery (better than Hore this year by a mile), Tomas O'Leary (better than Cowan/Leonard this year), Wallace, Leamy, O'Callaghan (underrated) and Earls and I'm not even naming the marginal ones.
3. Contepomi is gone, Necewa shouldn't be starting though he is good, Whitaker is retired, Van der Linde is usually injured and doesn't deserve to be starting at the moment. and Elsom as you well know is gone. So I don't get your point here at all.
4. I won't argue with the too much there except that nobody said that the Heineken Cup produces better players though I do say that it's Currie Cup, Air New Zealand Cup produce better players.
Someone else also said earlier on that though the HCup is bigger it has some poor teams I'd like to point out that though there's only 14 teams in the Super 14 the Cheetahs and the Reds are rubbish and the Lions ain't upto much either.
Not going to say one is better than the other though. To be honest there's not much difference between the quality to be honest. but the HCup has it on format again. Though that's moot now seeing as the format for Super 15 will be different.
Disclaimer: This wasn't intended to wind anyone up. Please allow for a bias factor of 0.3 in favour of Europe.
[/b][/quote]
Yes there way a bit of trolling in there, particualy in the O'Connell only decent player wind up. As I have stated before, I have no problem with the Hieniken Cup, I believe it is an enjoyable and to a certain extent I will admit it is a better competition due to factors such as scheduals, venues, sponcership and the huge amount of salaries clubs can offer. However I am sure I'm not alone when I feel the Northen bias towards both NH teams and players, can get idiotic. The reasons these arguments start is due to NH members put the hands up for NH players, and overlook SH players, despite SH teams and players consistantly beating NH teams. It is like calling the Reds, the most dominant team in the Super 14, the statments lacks evidence and seemingly common sence. The fact that you claim du Preez is in a winning team and therefore looks better seems to be only one sided. If I stuck Luke Burgess in Finland's national rugby team, of course he is going to stand out, but just because he may be a stand out player, does that make him a better player then du Preez?
The fact of the matter is, is that the reason that SH teams do so well is due to the quality of the players, and if you actually watched du Preez through both the Super 14 and Tri Nations, he was up against tough opposition in Cowan and Ginea, and yet he made two quality players look average. And I don't even like du Preez, so it is painful to put my hand up for him, but he is diserving of the ***le.
Brian O'Driscol is undoubtably a great player. He is the best player in Ireland, and because of the fact he is the best person in the Irish backs, he is made to look great. However while I'm not even arguing he is nmot the best Center in the world, in my honest opinion I would rate a few players performances this year higher.
Your point about SH members not watching much NH rugby in some ways is valid, however I would say the average NH member, only watches International matches if that. I have watched probably between 25-30 games in the last two years of NH rugby, which by no means is THAT much, but I do try and follow to the best of my abuility seeing as that not many NH games are shown in NZ, however I have been watching the progress of the three teams I support in NH being Clemont, Harlequins and Munster (ironically), and while the games are entertaining, I believe they are games which can lack the same level of skill especially in terms of the break down area, however can be more entertaining. They remind me of gthe Super 12 in some aspects.
Yes, I admit that my points were in some respects were "No you suck" However you can see why SH members, which seem in a vast minority at times, get so defencive.
1. Yeah, brilliant in 100 and something years, an Irish National rugby team has never beat New Zealand. Perhaps the last 1 year of that is relevant and in that time, yes you've beaten us once when the team was in an all time confidence low. It's about as irritating a point as 'your mam'. Who ever said that this had anything to do with Irish Rugby being better than New Zealand rugby. They didn't.
2. Tipoki - Retired, Mafi - Should be dropped, Howlett - Yeah, great player, Willaims - Hasn't started a Heineken Cup match...I don't know if hes even come off the bench, JdV - Been poor (though I'm sure he'll improve), Cullen - retired for about 3 years and was rubbish. Your Point? And O'Connell their only 'half decent' Irish player? I'll presume that's trolling but I'll start listing: Jerry Flannery (better than Hore this year by a mile), Tomas O'Leary (better than Cowan/Leonard this year), Wallace, Leamy, O'Callaghan (underrated) and Earls and I'm not even naming the marginal ones.
3. Contepomi is gone, Necewa shouldn't be starting though he is good, Whitaker is retired, Van der Linde is usually injured and doesn't deserve to be starting at the moment. and Elsom as you well know is gone. So I don't get your point here at all.
4. I won't argue with the too much there except that nobody said that the Heineken Cup produces better players though I do say that it's Currie Cup, Air New Zealand Cup produce better players.
Someone else also said earlier on that though the HCup is bigger it has some poor teams I'd like to point out that though there's only 14 teams in the Super 14 the Cheetahs and the Reds are rubbish and the Lions ain't upto much either.
Not going to say one is better than the other though. To be honest there's not much difference between the quality to be honest. but the HCup has it on format again. Though that's moot now seeing as the format for Super 15 will be different.
Disclaimer: This wasn't intended to wind anyone up. Please allow for a bias factor of 0.3 in favour of Europe.
[/b][/quote]
Yes there way a bit of trolling in there, particualy in the O'Connell only decent player wind up. As I have stated before, I have no problem with the Hieniken Cup, I believe it is an enjoyable and to a certain extent I will admit it is a better competition due to factors such as scheduals, venues, sponcership and the huge amount of salaries clubs can offer. However I am sure I'm not alone when I feel the Northen bias towards both NH teams and players, can get idiotic. The reasons these arguments start is due to NH members put the hands up for NH players, and overlook SH players, despite SH teams and players consistantly beating NH teams. It is like calling the Reds, the most dominant team in the Super 14, the statments lacks evidence and seemingly common sence. The fact that you claim du Preez is in a winning team and therefore looks better seems to be only one sided. If I stuck Luke Burgess in Finland's national rugby team, of course he is going to stand out, but just because he may be a stand out player, does that make him a better player then du Preez?The fact of the matter is, is that the reason that SH teams do so well is due to the quality of the players, and if you actually watched du Preez through both the Super 14 and Tri Nations, he was up against tough opposition in Cowan and Ginea, and yet he made two quality players look average. And I don't even like du Preez, so it is painful to put my hand up for him, but he is diserving of the ***le.
Brian O'Driscol is undoubtably a great player. He is the best player in Ireland, and because of the fact he is the best person in the Irish backs, he is made to look great. However while I'm not even arguing he is nmot the best Center in the world, in my honest opinion I would rate a few players performances this year higher.
Your point about SH members not watching much NH rugby in some ways is valid, however I would say the average NH member, only watches International matches if that. I have watched probably between 25-30 games in the last two years of NH rugby, which by no means is THAT much, but I do try and follow to the best of my abuility seeing as that not many NH games are shown in NZ, however I have been watching the progress of the three teams I support in NH being Clemont, Harlequins and Munster (ironically), and while the games are entertaining, I believe they are games which can lack the same level of skill especially in terms of the break down area, however can be more entertaining. They remind me of gthe Super 12 in some aspects.
Yes, I admit that my points were in some respects were "No you suck" However you can see why SH members, which seem in a vast minority at times, get so defencive.
J
Jer1cho
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Oct 16 2009, 06:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
HOW THE HELL DOES LOGORRHEA DO IT? If he posted the above remark he'd have another two pages' worth of f*** you's.
[/b][/quote]
But i wasn't fishing. I was already cooking the fish!
Also, I LOVE the HEC competition. It produces some of the best rugby on the planet! I'm not saying either competition is better, because they are just too different.
SH rugby is dominant over NH rugby. Do with that what you will, but the fact remains. Du Preez and O' Driscoll both deserve this award. I even think Victor Matfield might get it. But come on guys., there is no point to the whole SH vs NH debate. Heck, we will probably agree more on religious and political debates than rugby! I am loving every minute of the NH Saints this year, and I'm loving every minute of the Super 14 when it's on! Why can't you lot be more like me???
Note how nobody fell for this.
HOW THE HELL DOES LOGORRHEA DO IT? If he posted the above remark he'd have another two pages' worth of f*** you's.
[/b][/quote]
But i wasn't fishing. I was already cooking the fish!
Also, I LOVE the HEC competition. It produces some of the best rugby on the planet! I'm not saying either competition is better, because they are just too different.
SH rugby is dominant over NH rugby. Do with that what you will, but the fact remains. Du Preez and O' Driscoll both deserve this award. I even think Victor Matfield might get it. But come on guys., there is no point to the whole SH vs NH debate. Heck, we will probably agree more on religious and political debates than rugby! I am loving every minute of the NH Saints this year, and I'm loving every minute of the Super 14 when it's on! Why can't you lot be more like me???
S
Steve-o
Guest
:masturbanana:
Traitor
Traitor
K
KZNSharksFan
Guest
All up, a pretty fair assessment from monkeypigeon, though I do disagree on several points. The most prominent being:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Monkeypigeon @ Oct 17 2009, 07:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Well Du Preez has played astonishingly well this year, and for the last four years and not always behind a dominant pack. An example of this is the 49-0 thrashing in Brisbane in 2006 where he personally saved 3 tries and made numerous crucial tackles as well as trying desperately to jump-start a disheartened team.
Further examples include his consistently solid performances in a struggling Bulls side a few years back where he was most definitely not behind a dominant pack!
Which brings me to the next point, the SA pack is not made of supermen and do not destroy all comers as everyone conveniently assumes (for the sake of the argument against Du Preez) they do. They were only marginally better than their opponents in the Tri Nations this year and many times could not secure clean ball for Du Preez. It wasn't lain on a silver platter for him!
I know those past performances, prior to 2009 do not have anything to do with this award but what they do show is that Du Preez's performances are not owed to a dominant pack but to his own skill.
Furthermore you use Du Preez's direct opposite (the no. 9) as a measure of what he is up against. This is plainly ridiculous as no.9's rarely have anything to do with each other during a game, however they often come up against the opposition flankers and forwards in the rucks. In these cases, Du Preez was up against George Smith, Richie McCaw and Rocky Elsom, amongst others.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Monkeypigeon @ Oct 17 2009, 07:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Well Du Preez has played astonishingly well this year, and for the last four years and not always behind a dominant pack. An example of this is the 49-0 thrashing in Brisbane in 2006 where he personally saved 3 tries and made numerous crucial tackles as well as trying desperately to jump-start a disheartened team.
Further examples include his consistently solid performances in a struggling Bulls side a few years back where he was most definitely not behind a dominant pack!
Which brings me to the next point, the SA pack is not made of supermen and do not destroy all comers as everyone conveniently assumes (for the sake of the argument against Du Preez) they do. They were only marginally better than their opponents in the Tri Nations this year and many times could not secure clean ball for Du Preez. It wasn't lain on a silver platter for him!
I know those past performances, prior to 2009 do not have anything to do with this award but what they do show is that Du Preez's performances are not owed to a dominant pack but to his own skill.
Furthermore you use Du Preez's direct opposite (the no. 9) as a measure of what he is up against. This is plainly ridiculous as no.9's rarely have anything to do with each other during a game, however they often come up against the opposition flankers and forwards in the rucks. In these cases, Du Preez was up against George Smith, Richie McCaw and Rocky Elsom, amongst others.
B
Bullitt
Guest
Considering the content essentially boils down to another inter-hemisphere cock swinging contest, I must remark how it's all very mild mannored and polite in this thread!
S
Sir Speedy
Guest
Did you miss the previous four pages? o_ó
B
Bullitt
Guest
*compared to other inter-hemisphere cock-swinging contests of late...
S
Sir Speedy
Guest
Nobody got a chance to mention how badly the Lions were cheated out of the series, I think.
T
ThemApples
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Oct 17 2009, 01:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Lol! Surely you must be joking?! The lions were beaten by a superior team and thats all there is to it
Lol! Surely you must be joking?! The lions were beaten by a superior team and thats all there is to it
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