[2013 TRC] New Zealand vs South Africa in Auckland (14/09/2013)

[TRF_heineken]

Well, I guess I'm looking at it from a risk v benefits point of view - if you have a player that seems to attract yellow cards/play a hard, physical type of game ... and I've used Bismarck here, but you could just as easily use Nonu. International Rugby is played as a squad, not as a starting XV, and Strauss could just as easily had two try assists and a try saving tackle too.

He was our best player on the field. He made the biggest impact up front. Why would HM sub him? How many times has a player recieved a yellow card early in the first half and then finish the game without any other blemishes??

 

[ABs2011]

He was our best player on the field. He made the biggest impact up front. Why would HM sub him? How many times has a player recieved a yellow card early in the first half and then finish the game without any other blemishes??

Was BDP interviewed post match by SA media? Wondering what he had to say about the elbow?

 

[ABs2011]

This article has been making the rounds...

http://www.thebounce.co.za/2013/09/17/all-blacks-the-bullies-who-always-cry-about-being-bullied/

Oh I can now just see the outcry from the All Black supporters... He does make a valid point though...

These opinion pieces are funny I think. I'm not sure why people get so worked up about them, they are simply falling into the trap set by the "journos".

It's what happens on the park that counts and who has more points at the end of the day.

 

[Shaggy]

He was our best player on the field. He made the biggest impact up front. Why would HM sub him? How many times has a player recieved a yellow card early in the first half and then finish the game without any other blemishes??

The same reason you wouldn't start an injured Brussouw in a crucial RWC match, without a specialist fetcher on the bench as back up, or an under done Dan Carter in 2007 - it's too risky ... as others have pointed out, the game was gone when the Boks were down to 14 men.

... not saying that ALL players should be subbed when they receive their first Yellow card, but those such as Nonu and Bismarck might be more of a risk, than some other players ... coaches should trust their complete squads IMO ... for example, Barrett seemed to go ok when he came on right?

 

[TRF_heineken]

The same reason you wouldn't start an injured Brussouw in a crucial RWC match, without a specialist fetcher on the bench as back up, or an under done Dan Carter in 2007 - it's too risky ... as others have pointed out, the game was gone when the Boks were down to 14 men.

... not saying that ALL players should be subbed when they receive their first Yellow card, but those such as Nonu and Bismarck might be more of a risk, than some other players ... coaches should trust their complete squads IMO ... for example, Barrett seemed to go ok when he came on right?

How can you compare Bismarck to Nonu???

Nonu is a habitual non-arm tackling offender... It would make more sense if you compared him to Butch James...

 

[SelimNiai]

How can you compare Bismarck to Nonu???

Nonu is a habitual non-arm tackling offender... It would make more sense if you compared him to Butch James...

Nonu could learn a few things from this dude

 

[Shaggy]

How can you compare Bismarck to Nonu???

Nonu is a habitual non-arm tackling offender... It would make more sense if you compared him to Butch James...

Why? ... the issue is the number of Yellow cards the player attracts, hence the risk they will attract two (a Red), during a match, not the reason they get them ... I use Nonu and Bismarck as example of high risk, if you want to add Butch James into the equation, knock yourself out ... although, as he's not involved in the current squads, he seems a little irrelevant IMO

 

[ABs2011]

Why? ... the issue is the number of Yellow cards the player attracts, hence the risk they will attract two (a Red), during a match, not the reason they get them ... I use Nonu and Bismarck as example of high risk, if you want to add Butch James into the equation, knock yourself out ... although, as he's not involved in the current squads, he seems a little irrelevant IMO

I don't know enough about Bismark to comment on his history, but in terms of Nonu, I sure as hell would sub in right off if he got a yellow card with anything less than 20 min to go. Bismark's stupidity with the elbow suggests his coaches must be questioning his judgement as well so I think you have a point. Not sure if he has a history of yellow cards like Nonu though so the direct comparison might not be entirely fair?

I guess the point is, if you have a guy who makes dumb ass on field decisions and they are already on a yellow then there should be serious consideration as to whether to pull them. SA got beaten by a better AB side IMO, but they certainly lost all chances of a win (and even a bonus point and an potentially the RC) when Bismark decided to raise his elbow....

 

[TRF_heineken]

Why? ... the issue is the number of Yellow cards the player attracts, hence the risk they will attract two (a Red), during a match, not the reason they get them ... I use Nonu and Bismarck as example of high risk, if you want to add Butch James into the equation, knock yourself out ... although, as he's not involved in the current squads, he seems a little irrelevant IMO

I mention Butch, as he has had numerous yellows against him for stupid play in test rugby, and is on the same habitual level as Nonu.

Bismarck has played 52 tests. He was a substitute in 22 of those tests, and started 30 of them. I can't find any stats about how many yellows and red cards he has recieved at test level, but I would be surprized if it is more than 5 cards.

So that is why I question your argument here. Bismarck, although he's a physical player, he's hardly a thug, and always play within the rules. He's the type of guy that will punish himself for letting down the team. He doesn't "attract many yellow cards" as you put it. And I'm sure many NZ'ers would even agree with me that comparing Nonu to Bismarck is not a fair comparison.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I am still ****** off. We are going to have to hope for superior points differential to take the ***le at this stage (and hope for NZ to pick up only 4 in Arg while we hope to destroy Aus with a bP again; both big IFS or beat NZ at home without giving away a BP, also easier said than done). Another HUGE error costing us, feels like every 2nd game we get the shaft. That yellow on Alberts vs Aussie was also questioable IMO but was immaterial because we went on to win. The games against Scotland and Arg in Mendoza the opposition was allowed t get away with murder as well. I really was thinking we'd get some mileage out of the RWC fiasco and get the benefit more often than not for a year or two. I guys I was wrong. Well, I suppose its a case of adapt or die and our fans aren't helping our boys out as the over the top reactions doesn't help to build up some goodwill with the refs at all. HM and JdV are doing the right thing with their acceptance but the fans and SA media counter the good work they are doing on a PR front.

 

[Dizzy]

Well I think SA were very hard done by.. As we can all agree, Bismark didn't deserve the first yellow card. And to suggest they should've subbed him based only on this is ludicrous. He was easily the most influential player for the Boks and seemed to be the only one who could've turned the tide as such.. You cannot foresee a second yellow especially when there shouldn't have been a first one to begin with so to make the substitute call would be a very stupid idea. The second yellow I feel was also a bit harsh.. The game is becoming increasingly "tiddlywink"-like... It really wasn't that bad of a bump and to watch something in slow motion makes it seem much worse than it really was.. He definitely wasn't intending to "strike" Messam with the elbow, it's just one of those things that happen and in my opinion he was wrongly binned. Now before you guys get all technical with the laws and such, I think if we're going to make vital decisions like this based around the tackle-area, we should also stick to the same laws in the ruck area... Many a time we see players being cleaned out of rucks by players grabbing around the head/neck area and nothing is ever done. If we're going to be consistent, call this a head high..

I feel, the game was robbed from us all, not just SA supporters because once Bismark was red carded early in the second half,... the contest was gone immediately.. I had no doubt whatsoever that the All Blacks were going to win and it really sucks when crucial and poor refereeing decisions are being made that effect the game in a big way..

What makes it worse is that the first yellow card was referred to the TMO and Bismark was still sent off,.. This is absolutely atrocious, you have the referee who can see it on the big screen, you have the TMO sitting cosy with the footage in front of him, you have two officials standing on the sidelines also and you still get the call absolutely wrong??... How long is it going to take for the IRB or referees association or whatever to roll some heads as an example that they need to step their game up... The time has come for referee's to also be held accountable. If a player does wrong, he faces judiciary, if a referee does wrong, you cant even criticize him without getting in hot water...

I feel for the South Africans and wish them all the best for the rest of the championship. Even if we did win, it doesn't feel right.

 

[Jer1cho]

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Brilliant

 

[ABs2011]

I am still ****** off. We are going to have to hope for superior points differential to take the ***le at this stage (and hope for NZ to pick up only 4 in Arg while we hope to destroy Aus with a bP again; both big IFS or beat NZ at home without giving away a BP, also easier said than done). Another HUGE error costing us, feels like every 2nd game we get the shaft. That yellow on Alberts vs Aussie was also questioable IMO but was immaterial because we went on to win. The games against Scotland and Arg in Mendoza the opposition was allowed t get away with murder as well. I really was thinking we'd get some mileage out of the RWC fiasco and get the benefit more often than not for a year or two. I guys I was wrong. Well, I suppose its a case of adapt or die and our fans aren't helping our boys out as the over the top reactions doesn't help to build up some goodwill with the refs at all. HM and JdV are doing the right thing with their acceptance but the fans and SA media counter the good work they are doing on a PR front.

Not so sure about that at all. I'd be very suprised if points differential will have anything to do with it now.

In the situation you hypothesise SA will be 3 points ahead of NZ going into the last game (and in all likelihood ahead on points differential as well). That means SA will just have to beat NZ. They won't have to worry about points differential, because a win will get them the championship.

The only situation where points differential will be important is if NZ smash Argentina and get the points differential in their favour by more than 7. If that's the case it may force SA to beat NZ by a large margin to take the RC.

I think the most likely situation is that we go into the final match SA 4 points behind NZ but with superior points diff. If thats the case they will need to win and deny the bonus point to NZ and points differential wont come into it - (which is your second option)!

I guess the other likely option is NZ beat Argentina convincingly and go into the last round 5 points up on SA. In that case obviously SA need the 4 try bonus point victory, and again it would be unlikely that points differential would come into it.

Time will tell though - and at ever happens the game in SA will be a cracker, unless of course SA loses to OZ

 

[ABs2011]

AB squad for Argentina and SA - notable inclusions in bold:
Forwards: Hookers: Dane Coles, Andrew Hore and Keven Mealamu. Props: Wyatt Crockett, Charlie Faumuina, Ben Franks, Owen Franks and Tony Woodcock. Locks: Brodie Retallick, Jeremy Thrush and Sam Whitelock. Loose forwards: Sam Cane, Steven Luatua, Richie McCaw, Liam Messam and Kieran Read. Backs: Halfbacks: Tawera Kerr-Barlow, Aaron Smith and Piri Weepu. First five-eighths: Beauden Barrett, Aaron Cruden and Tom Taylor. Midfielders: Ma'a Nonu and Conrad Smith. Outside backs: Israel Dagg, Charles Piutau, Julian Savea and Ben Smith.

 

[Patchey]

Judging by twitter Tj lost out to Piri. Surprising to see Richie back I thought he was due for a longer lay off

 

[Draggs]

What was the last test the ABs played without both Richie and Dan?

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Well, in the French series Richie wasn't playing due to being on a sabbatical. Carter missed the first two matches through injury. So that'd be the last time, earlier this year

Judging by twitter Tj lost out to Piri. Surprising to see Richie back I thought he was due for a longer lay off

Perenara is out for six weeks with a leg injury. Augustine Pulu is apparently the next in line, but the selectors didn't feel like a tour of Argentina and South Africa would be a good time to bring in another inexperienced halfback. McCaw will be unavailable for the Argentina match, if he's going to be unavailable for the SA part of the tour then he will be replaced with Todd.

 

[Draggs]

True, I should have rephrased it as TRC or Tri Nations test.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

True, I should have rephrased it as TRC or Tri Nations test.

In 2011 some of NZ's top players were rested when the All Blacks travelled to South Africa. McCaw and Carter were two of those players (with Thomson and Slade starting instead). South Africa won 18-5. Prior to that? Probably back before Carter and McCaw were regular starters...