[2014 EOYT] England vs New Zealand

[goodNumber10]

Well when your team misses 12 points from the tee but still manages to win whilst also spending 10 minutes with only 14 men (due to their own ill-discipline), that doesn't really imply that the opposition played that well, especially when you consider that the All Blacks weren't spectacular.

Except for the fact England left at least 13 points (try, conversion, Penalty and drop goal) out there and were absolutely dire in the second half after a great first half.

By this logic that indicates that New Zealand were in fact lucky England were off their game?

You can't factor in missed kicks and everything else in a performance, awful conditions and distance etc... all play a factor and you have to look at the absolutes not the what ifs. The what ifs are for the training paddock

I don't see many Kiwis suggesting that the score was so close because of the ref - most have indicated that it was terrible goalkicking which kept the score so close. In fact it seems that most people appear to agree that Whitelock's try should have been awarded but that Cruden's potentially shouldn't have. Most annoyances with the ref are to do with the yellow card (which, as I posted before, have actually helped NZ this year) and his communication with the TMO - which I think everyone will agree was a touch ridiculous.

IMHO Whitelocks try was'n't a try as the ball wasn't over the line, I'm still to see a shot were the ball is clearly touching the white of the chalk.


To be fair there is a shed load of whinging in this thread by the AB fans about how hard done by they are because their team played a bit badly.

I mean the whole Hartley thing is ridiculous, no one would be calling for a penalty sanction against Hartley if Coles hadn't been an idiot - the whistle had gone and Hartley did no more than give his shirt a tug, it wasn't foul play had no impact on the sequence of play and to make out it was is utterly petty and a bit ridiculous (that's not aimed at you @Mr Fish ).

Hartley and England wasn't rewarded for foul play, New Zealand were penalised for Coles being a d*ck. It's really that simple.

 

[austingtir]

Except for the fact England left at least 13 points (try, conversion, Penalty and drop goal) out there and were absolutely dire in the second half after a great first half.

By this logic that indicates that New Zealand were in fact lucky England were off their game?

You can't factor in missed kicks and everything else in a performance, awful conditions and distance etc... all play a factor and you have to look at the absolutes not the what ifs. The what ifs are for the training paddock



IMHO Whitelocks try was'n't a try as the ball wasn't over the line, I'm still to see a shot were the ball is clearly touching the white of the chalk.


To be fair there is a shed load of whinging in this thread by the AB fans about how hard done by they are because their team played a bit badly.

I mean the whole Hartley thing is ridiculous, no one would be calling for a penalty sanction against Hartley if Coles hadn't been an idiot - the whistle had gone and Hartley did no more than give his shirt a tug, it wasn't foul play had no impact on the sequence of play and to make out it was is utterly petty and a bit ridiculous (that's not aimed at you @Mr Fish ).

Hartley and England wasn't rewarded for foul play, New Zealand were penalised for Coles being a d*ck. It's really that simple.

The whole hartley thing is not just about hartley and coles and you know it. You really are a bit of a **** taker on here imo. Nigel Owens complete incompetence in this match is what most people are complaining about.

 

[goodNumber10]

The whole hartley thing is not just about hartley and coles and you know it. You really are a bit of a **** taker on here imo. Nigel Owens complete incompetence in this match is what most people are complaining about.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Admittedly my desire to see Hartley penalised is possibly more to do with the fact that I think he's a complete prick I would've been quite happy to see Coles' boot connect with Hartley's face!

 

[kovana]

Just saw this comment posted in another bored.

I will say my respect for the English fans has somewhat diminished after what I saw today.

Fanatical supporters, but don't seem to know much about the game.
They boo everything. Im a kiwi fan and thought the way NZ booed Quade was in bad taste, but geez the English take the cake.
ABs score a legitimate try after 24 phases and the crowd boos
McCaw man of the match and getting booed.
Various other refereeing decisions like when McCaw was over the ball and England were pinged. They booed.
Was quite taken aback; I always thought England rugby fans had a dose of class about them, but obviously not.

Yet seems to forget these certain images back in 09..

 

[austingtir]

Just saw this comment posted in another bored.



Yet seems to forget these certain images back in 09..

View attachment 3461

LOL that was in Dunedin WTF do you expect when a bunch of frenchies beat the all blacks up in a student town? WTH do thinks going to happen??

Meh, im not complaining about the English fans at all. You've just got a bit of a chip on your shoulder I reckon.

 

[austingtir]

Admittedly my desire to see Hartley penalised is possibly more to do with the fact that I think he's a complete prick I would've been quite happy to see Coles' boot connect with Hartley's face!

Exactly and id be surprised if Hansen hasnt said to him to make sure he connects if he's going to do anything that stupid again! ; )

See experience counts for something, good old Andrew "baby seal hunter" Hore would of sorted that situation out quick smart.... ask Bradley Davies about that one!

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Except for the fact England left at least 13 points (try, conversion, Penalty and drop goal) out there and were absolutely dire in the second half after a great first half.

By this logic that indicates that New Zealand were in fact lucky England were off their game?

You can't factor in missed kicks and everything else in a performance, awful conditions and distance etc... all play a factor and you have to look at the absolutes not the what ifs. The what ifs are for the training paddock



IMHO Whitelocks try was'n't a try as the ball wasn't over the line, I'm still to see a shot were the ball is clearly touching the white of the chalk.


To be fair there is a shed load of whinging in this thread by the AB fans about how hard done by they are because their team played a bit badly.

I mean the whole Hartley thing is ridiculous, no one would be calling for a penalty sanction against Hartley if Coles hadn't been an idiot - the whistle had gone and Hartley did no more than give his shirt a tug, it wasn't foul play had no impact on the sequence of play and to make out it was is utterly petty and a bit ridiculous (that's not aimed at you @Mr Fish ).

Hartley and England wasn't rewarded for foul play, New Zealand were penalised for Coles being a d*ck. It's really that simple.

If not aimed At mr fish was it aimed at me, I was just trying to have a conversation about potential other ways to punish foul play, this particular example is just that, an example

Definitely starting to get the feeling abs supporters aren't welcome to suggest change, apparently we should just be happy with everything because we win

 

[smartcooky]

I can't think of a way to punish both parties, though.
That's why penalty reversals are a thing.?

I can.

If a player retaliates to foul play under provocation from an opponent, send them both to the bin, but award the penalty against the retaliating team, so in this case, both Hartley and Coles go to the bin, but England gets the PK.

IMO, provocation is foul play under Law 10.4 (m)....

[TEXTAREA]10.4 (m) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/TEXTAREA]

....and should be treated as serious foul play

 

[donmcdazzle]

^ smart cooky I appreciate your knowledge of the game, but if Hartley had been yellow carded for what he did then I would have been disgusted. If Coles hadn't been an idiot, we would have just clocked it up as another bit of Hartley dick headed behaviour and been done with it. However, Coles bought it hook line and sinker. The ABs players do that sort of thing as much as anyone, Hore used to do stuff like that all game, it's your own fault if you react.

What Coles should have done (and probably what everyone who gets ****led should do) is get up and start a push and shove. You'll never get pinged but the refs will likely look at it on the TMO and would probably have pinged Hartley for obstruction or something.

 

[goodNumber10]

IMO, provocation is foul play under Law 10.4 (m)....

[TEXTAREA]10.4 (m) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/TEXTAREA]

....and should be treated as serious foul play

You would class Hartley holding someones shirt as serious foul play?

If not aimed At mr fish was it aimed at me, I was just trying to have a conversation about potential other ways to punish foul play, this particular example is just that, an example

Definitely starting to get the feeling abs supporters aren't welcome to suggest change, apparently we should just be happy with everything because we win

oh, boo hoo! it must terrible for you guys having to tailcoat the success of the best team in in the world.

If you're so up for discussion about change lets talk about McCaw's constant illegal play; standing up in the path of the scrumhalf, coming in from the side, hands in the ruck, legs around the side.

All of which had a far bigger negative impact on the game than a shirt being pulled after the whistle had gone.

It's all very well saying something is wrong but you sir are only looking at one microscopic incident in a game that had foul play all the way through it that had a far bigger impact than Hartleys.

 

[Jack Reacher]

England failed to score (or even come close to scoring) for nearly 40 minutes - thats due to the fact NZ had all the ball and all the territory. England didn't play badly, they weren't allowed to play.
Faumuina's try was one of the best I've seen in years. If you want to collectively hear 80,000 people get punched in the guts then watch that again!
Also, its getting to the point where I cant watch England play (even against us) simply because of the booing! Its ridiculous. They boo the haka (which they apparently love), they booed every try, kick, penalty, they booed McCaws speech.
Not in any other sport where a team is so average do their supporters act as if they're best on display, every time.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

England failed to score (or even come close to scoring) for nearly 40 minutes - thats due to the fact NZ had all the ball and all the territory. England didn't play badly, they weren't allowed to play.
Faumuina's try was one of the best I've seen in years. If you want to collectively hear 80,000 people get punched in the guts then watch that again!
Also, its getting to the point where I cant watch England play (even against us) simply because of the booing! Its ridiculous. They boo the haka (which they apparently love), they booed every try, kick, penalty, they booed McCaws speech.
Not in any other sport where a team is so average do their supporters act as if they're best on display, every time.

Do you have some sort of condition whereby when someone says anything to you, such as "Hello Jack", you hear the word "Boo?"
When I write this post to you are just hearing "Booooooooooooooo"?
Because frankly I don't know what you're on about. All through the Haka you had Swing Low Sweet Chariot which in my view is a perfectly spirited response. As for the booing of kicks, tries penalties, its pretty amazing that you haven't noticed the correspondence between this and the size of the crowds. Twickenam is big and the size of the response correlates to the number of people. Plus, in both directions there were some questionable decisions on saturday.

Shame, by the way, that so many New Zealand posters on this forum have dedicated their TRF careers to poorly executed WUMMING. I felt that most English posters here are pretty gracious in defeat - gracious in victory is not how I would describe you guys.

 

[nzlizard]

but if Hartley had been yellow carded for what he did then I would have been disgusted. If Coles hadn't been an idiot, we would have just clocked it up as another bit of Hartley dick headed behaviour and been done with it. However, Coles bought it hook line and sinker. The ABs players do that sort of thing as much as anyone, Hore used to do stuff like that all game, it's your own fault if you react.

What Coles should have done (and probably what everyone who gets ****led should do) is get up and start a push and shove. You'll never get pinged but the refs will likely look at it on the TMO and would probably have pinged Hartley for obstruction or something.

So agree with this, Coles was stupid and just bit when he shouldn't have.

Also, its getting to the point where I cant watch England play (even against us) simply because of the booing! Its ridiculous. They boo the haka (which they apparently love), they booed every try, kick, penalty, they booed McCaws speech.
Not in any other sport where a team is so average do their supporters act as if they're best on display, every time.

I take the opinion that their fans can do what ever they want, they want to boo everything then let em.

At the end of the day it is not like they get to cheer very often so at least if they boo when tries are scored against England it brings them into the game on a regular basis.

 

[nickdnz]

So over this match thread.

I'm not sure why people are still discussing this match as frequently as they are, when every other match that occurred this weekend was more enjoyable. Ireland vs South Africa, Australia vs Wales - all thoroughly entertaining matches without the constant sh*t that occurred during this game. Everyone is arguing semantics - it's done. I certainly feel the refereed had a simply terrible match (it's taken a day and a half before I've decided to post again on this thread), but it's over with so may as well try and look for the positives. Darwin had a pretty nice review.

Here are my thoughts on the All Blacks:
I genuinely believe our starting front row had a marginally better scrum. I'll still take Woodcock over Crockett, but while he was on we generally were doing well, particularly in that first half. Owen Franks was solid as well. I can't help but feel the small amount of faith I had in Faumuina slipped away again, and Ben Franks probably didn't help himself. I thought in the second half we were probably a bit unfairly targeted in the scrum by Owens (we got penalized with the better scrum so no way were going to not be penalized for having a weaker one). We held our own with 7 men at one point - so I think any talk of complete scrum domination is a little unwarranted. I'm certainly not as comfortable without our starting front row playing (I'd actually be quite relieved to have the fat but immovable Tameifuna coming on to sure up the scrums over Faumuina..). In terms of hookers, well Coles played alright barring the yellow. I don't think a yellow was warranted considering the circumstances and the TMOs recommendations, but as others have mentioned Coles handled it the wrong way - in a match that was never going to let anything go. Mealamu was pretty quiet when he came on.

Our locks were generally good - considering Retallick came off - Tuipolotu was very good. His physicality in the tackle was exactly what I feel we needed, his hit on Vunipola was very special (considering how hard he was to contain the whole match). That said our line-out simply got schooled by the English, it seemed our jumpers were just telegraphing too much and the hookers weren't lobbing the ball high enough.

Our looseforwards as others have mentioned probably won us the game. I'm not sure why Kaino was left off the field after the Coles replacement, and Messam brought on. He was the best player on the park IMO. Huge physicality in every tackle and strong with ball in hand. It's frustrating from my perspective people talk about Messam and Kaino like they're more or less the same, there is no comparison. Kaino has done more in the 60 minutes than Messam has in 100 minutes this tour. I thought McCaw looked good this match, he seemed to be more careful in picking the times we was going for the turn overs. Read also looked good doing what he does with ball in hand, didn't really make any big mistakes.

Aaron Smith and TJ Peranara both did well - Aaron Smith still seems like he delivers ball quicker than any halfback. Peranara was good when he came on, perhaps a bit slower bade generally made some good decisions. Both Cruden and Barrett need to sort their kicking out. Cruden has lost NZ 17 points over the last two matches, while Barrett has lost us 7. There has been some tough conditions in both matches, and they are both generally capable goal kickers - but too many more performances like that will open the door for Carter and Slade.

SBW was alright. He has been running at some nice angles and has been good with his breaks, but he's also missed a few opportunities to put players into space at the end of those breaks. Conrad Smith was good while he was on despite the early miss on May, while Crotty has once again impressed me with how clinical he is. The outside backs were all well contained this match. Could complain about Dagg but he was alright...despite not being able to tackle or break the line.

I think we're really going to need to step it up a gear against Ireland in a few weeks. They have a side and play a game that I think could really hurt us.

 

[Jack Reacher]

. As for the booing of kicks, tries penalties, its pretty amazing that you haven't noticed the correspondence between this and the size of the crowds. Twickenam is big and the size of the response correlates to the number of people. Plus, in both directions there were some questionable decisions on saturday.

Shame, by the way, that so many New Zealand posters on this forum have dedicated their TRF careers to poorly executed WUMMING. I felt that most English posters here are pretty gracious in defeat - gracious in victory is not how I would describe you guys.

No, you are just experiencing a snapshot of life as a NZ supporter. EVERY team we play against its the same - McCaw's a cheat, we were lucky, if this, this and this didn't happen and this, this and this did we wouldn't have lost. If Read, Carter, Smith, Savea and McCaw etc were injured.....
For some reason England (fans) believe they are equal to NZ (3 wins in 21 years!) and no one has the right to win at 'Twickers'. Just because you say its a fortress doesn't mean it is.
If we seem less than gracious in defeat its because we know if we don't win by 20-30 points England will and did claim some sort of moral victory.
I actually had a ticket to go Saturday but I simply can't face going to Twickenham, I've been to all the other grounds at least twice to watch NZ and had a fantastic time with the opposition fans but 'HQ' is a right boofest.

 

[Icemn]

oh, boo hoo! it must terrible for you guys having to tailcoat the success of the best team in in the world.

If you're so up for discussion about change lets talk about McCaw's constant illegal play; standing up in the path of the scrumhalf, coming in from the side, hands in the ruck, legs around the side.

All of which had a far bigger negative impact on the game than a shirt being pulled after the whistle had gone.

It's all very well saying something is wrong but you sir are only looking at one microscopic incident in a game that had foul play all the way through it that had a far bigger impact than Hartleys.

isn't that what a openside flanker is supposed to do?
all those things you listed there is from the "openside flanker for dummies" handbook...
rugby was invented before television, those days the openside flanker got away with murder because a ref can only see so much... now we have tv refs etc just ask Josh Kronfelt

 

[goodNumber10]

No, you are just experiencing a snapshot of life as a NZ supporter. EVERY team we play against its the same - McCaw's a cheat, we were lucky, if this, this and this didn't happen and this, this and this did we wouldn't have lost. If Read, Carter, Smith, Savea and McCaw etc were injured.....
For some reason England (fans) believe they are equal to NZ (3 wins in 21 years!) and no one has the right to win at 'Twickers'. Just because you say its a fortress doesn't mean it is.
If we seem less than gracious in defeat its because we know if we don't win by 20-30 points England will and did claim some sort of moral victory.
I actually had a ticket to go Saturday but I simply can't face going to Twickenham, I've been to all the other grounds at least twice to watch NZ and had a fantastic time with the opposition fans but 'HQ' is a right boofest.

utter utter garbage, it's not often i say this but you are literally as thick as mince.

No one, who isn't clearly trolling, has said NZ were lucky. 99% of all england posters have said New Zealand were the better team and England were poor and deserved to lose.

The McCaw thing is being brought up because people are frustrated at the huge levels of hypocrisy from the majority of NZ supporters who want to b*tch and squabble about how out of order the opposition were for pulling a shirt, or claim bias in the ref because they didn't manage to put a big score on the opposition, yet refuse to acknowledge the detrimental effect their own captain and team tactics had on the quality of the game.

Seriously can someone lock this thread, it's clearly run it's course and is rapidly descending into a troll fest.

isn't that what a openside flanker is supposed to do?
all those things you listed there is from the "openside flanker for dummies" handbook...
rugby was invented before television, those days the openside flanker got away with murder because a ref can only see so much... now we have tv refs etc just ask Josh Kronfelt

ha! indeed, but apparently gamesmanship is only ok if it's by a new zealander, anyone else is obviously looking at a 12 month ban for provoking the great black gods wrath.

 

[big ginger 8]

I think we're really going to need to step it up a gear against Ireland in a few weeks. They have a side and play a game that I think could really hurt us.

I'm afraid we're not playing you guys this series.

 

[j-dawg]

Think people are looking into this a bit too much, praise for NZ is very high indeed.

To me it was just a classic tale of two halves, and a typical valiant effort from England; a close game in which NZ always seem to be on the right side of. For me, the first half had New Zealand under the cosh with England coming away with less points than they should have and the second half had England coming under the cosh with New Zealand coming away with less points than they should have.

Noticed Mccaw enter the breakdown from Englands side very blatantly that no one seems to have mentioned... (except Robshaw to Owens)