[2014 EOYT] England vs New Zealand

[j'nuh]

So I'm guessing:

Brown, Rokoduguni, Barritt, Eastmond, May, Farrell, Care; Marler, Hartley, Wilson, Attwood, Lawes, Wood, Robshaw, Vunipola
Webber, Mullan, Brookes, Kruis, Morgan, Youngs, Ford, Watson

Injuries considered, I'm quite pleased with that squad. That's a back three that can in theory cause some damage. Just wish Tuilagi was available.

why?

Sometimes people have a skill set that fits differently to the international game than their domestic/club game where riches are less. Richard Kahui for example played more for NZ at wing then he did at centre, but was/is a fantastic centre for the chiefs.

This becomes harder the further down the numbers you go but it needs to be best man for the job, not next in line.

Because:
1. Although some are saying that Brad is a better attacker than some give credit for, even if this were the case, he's still on the poor side of average for an international back. You could not argue that he is a good/great attacking player. I think that you can hide someone who is average in attack at 12. But you can't at 13. The 13 is, at least imo, the most important player in attack. Whereas the 10/12 distributes, the 13 has to run and link with the outside backs. This is why the best 13s are also some of the most creative players in international rugby, and why there simply isn't a defensive-minded 13 around at the top-levels.
2. Even if he had the skills, he lacks the positional experience. Very, very rarely this works out. NZ are an odd case because they can often do this without having anyone to really challenge it. In general though, there are so many positional nuances that you just can't get from training there for a couple of weeks in the run-up to a game. It was why it was infuriating to see Tuilagi move to the wing and subsequently not do anything. Absolutely great in principal. Now give him 6 months to do it for his club before trying it on the biggest stage. It was just so predictable that he'd do mostly nothing out there.

 

[chippieolamus]

So I'm guessing:

Brown, Rokoduguni, Barritt, Eastmond, May, Farrell, Care; Marler, Hartley, Wilson, Attwood, Lawes, Wood, Robshaw, Vunipola
Webber, Mullan, Brookes, Kruis, Morgan, Youngs, Ford, Watson

Injuries considered, I'm quite pleased with that squad. That's a back three that can in theory cause some damage. Just wish Tuilagi was available.

Don't we all...

 

[Flyingdolphins]

What happened to Yard? Last I heard he wasn't doing contacts at training, he's not injured isn't he?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yeah - nothing major, just not fit to play.

Watson being chosen ahead of Goode is a pretty big deal IMO - signals that if he performs well then it's basically his shirt for the RWC.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Anthony Watson ousts Alex Goode for the 23 shirt!

Thank **** for that.

 

[Flyingdolphins]

Yeah - nothing major, just not fit to play.

Watson being chosen ahead of Goode is a pretty big deal IMO - signals that if he performs well then it's basically his shirt for the RWC.

It's really a twist of luck about the injury lists. Is it maybe the training that is causing this?

 

[donmcdazzle]

I agree with this. I feel 100% (or close to) with every single 10 we have - even Slade. In saying that though, there are minor things I worry about each one.

- Carter: Best game manager and reader of opposition we have. Provides the best attacking flow (despite maybe not the same in terms of his running) imo even at this stage in his career. Probably the best defensively of the bunch. Main concern is health.
- Cruden: Probably the 'safest' option of all. But rarely provides that offensive spark these days, and kicking range (and accuracy, as of late) are big concerns for me.
- Barrett: Provides the best attacking spark. Kicking off hand is ok. Goal kicking (in general, and historically speaking) has been questionable though. Some concern in terms of defensive game. Deals with pressure well in the big game, however.
- Slade: Most solid kicker (goal kicking and in hand) of the bunch imo, save for maybe DC. Runs the game about as well as anyone, but I still think he has that 'jitteriness' about the big game/under pressure about him, and can wilt (a la RWC 2011 et al). Mind you, big kick against AUS, but again, that was using his main strength, in goal kicking.

I don't get this. I feel the backline operates far better with Cruden there. I feel like the Chiefs backline has been better than the Hurricanes over the past few seasons too which has a fair bit to do with the 10's. Barrett is obviously faster and is a better chance to make a break for himself, but I haven't seen him spark the rest of the backs all that often.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's really a twist of luck about the injury lists. Is it maybe the training that is causing this?

Nah, he injured his elbow playing for Quins a few weeks back and it's been giving him problems ever since.
Been heavily strapped every game since.


Very happy with that 23, considering the injuries we have.
My personal preference would've been Nowell in for one of May or Watson, but I really really like both May and Watson so not exactly the end of the world.
Does seem pretty crazy that B.Youngs is still making every matchday 23 despite not really performing (at least consistently) since 2011.

 

[Larksea]

I think first looks can be deceiving because Cruden does not actually operate as a first receiver nearly as often as Carter and Barrett do.

IMO carter has re-established himself as #1, Barrett is now next in the pecking order. Cruden has had an average year, his kicking is in question once again and combined with missing the boat he's lucky he's still ahead of Slade.

Also noteworthy is that Barrett seemed to carry an ankle injury through TRC which clearly hampered him at times.

IMO the fact they called Slade in and not a winger puts Crudens position in even more question. Slade and Tom Taylor offer much more versatility looking at a WC squad situation. It's worth noting that Tom Taylor absolutely took the couple of chances he got to play test footy.

wait and see I guess. Looking at how WC finals games play out I think having NZ's best goal kicker in the mix is a smart option.

 

[Maverick1987]

Nah, he injured his elbow playing for Quins a few weeks back and it's been giving him problems ever since.
Been heavily strapped every game since.


Very happy with that 23, considering the injuries we have.
My personal preference would've been Nowell in for one of May or Watson, but I really really like both May and Watson so not exactly the end of the world.
Does seem pretty crazy that B.Youngs is still making every matchday 23 despite not really performing (at least consistently) since 2011.

In fairness to Youngs everytime I've seen him play for Leicester he's been good . Maybe the Bath game is the only one but let's face it everybody was crap that day ...

 

[Flyingdolphins]

Nah, he injured his elbow playing for Quins a few weeks back and it's been giving him problems ever since.
Been heavily strapped every game since.


Very happy with that 23, considering the injuries we have.
My personal preference would've been Nowell in for one of May or Watson, but I really really like both May and Watson so not exactly the end of the world.
Does seem pretty crazy that B.Youngs is still making every matchday 23 despite not really performing (at least consistently) since 2011.

Yeah Surprised with Youngs selection too. Happy with Roko's selection though. I suppose with injuries they've had to rethink their game plans and based on these selection it seems they wanna play running rugby rather then the usual percentage game. Exciting though go the Red Rose.

In fairness to Youngs everytime I've seen him play for Leicester he's been good . Maybe the Bath game is the only one but let's face it everybody was crap that day ...

Bro I don't think anyone doubts he's been good. I think based on his previous great forms everyone assumes him being good means he's not operating at his usual high standards. Although whenever he puts on that Red Rose jersey on he always seems to find an extra gear.

 

[Big Ewis]

so England's playing that Fijian dynamite guy after all:
http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_9549852,00.html

Man after looking at the group

England squad to face New Zealand

Forwards (13): Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), George Kruis (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, captain), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints).

Backs (10): Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).


although I understand there are injuries in there, I've got to say: not a terribly exciting group (at all) but I'll bet ya England does well with relatively little on paper...AGAIN. As opposed (if anything were ever opposed.. gosh !!) to France who, themselves having quite a list of broken parts, have a ton of excitement on paper but WILL, you can rest assured, oh lawdy you can even go to bed on it right now and sleep tight and suck the hell out of that thumb - play considerably, in fact alarmingly below their optimum.

Good luck England. I do hope this'll be a close one and don't wish a blowout from NZ, but you brag in such an annoying way when you succeed at something hard I just can't say I wish victory for you either !

All-Blacks by...10. They're hot, engines running. England have that huge disadvantage of starting against the AB, off cold...Tuilagi was instrumental, utterly essential in England's win 2 years ago, he ain't there, the scrum won't be a huge advantage either, I think England were very good in NZ on the whole; although even a Wooden Spoon bearing France in a shattered, offensively-nonexistent state was competitive almost the same way a year prior (scores don't show it, but if you've seen all 6 tests you'll know).
..So I'm saying England are a class below if we're honest, will be rusty, missing pieces. NZ know what they're getting their bodies into, and their heads will be in the right place, plus they just got ANOTHER wakeup call in Bledisloe 3. They'll look to conquer London, in a way they can nod their heads to, not a lousy 2pt win, and start this tour off convincingly before tackling the rest on the way to a GSlam. They've got Savea, they've got Ben Smith, they've got Retallick, they've got Fekitoa, Piutau...all guys who can legit make a difference individually. AB's by like 9-13pts.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Well it was with the help of injuries that our last 6N squad got out and we discovered the likes of Brown at FB, Burrell, Nowell and the Lawes/Launchbury partnership. Hopefully the new lot will likewise have such an impact for England. It's going to be very difficult against a settled NZ team though.

 

[Flyingdolphins]

so England's playing that Fijian dynamite guy after all:
http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_9549852,00.html

Man after looking at the group

England squad to face New Zealand

Forwards (13): Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), George Kruis (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, captain), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints).

Backs (10): Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).


although I understand there are injuries in there, I've got to say: not a terribly exciting group (at all) but I'll bet ya England does well with relatively little on paper...AGAIN. As opposed (if anything were ever opposed.. gosh !!) to France who, themselves having quite a list of broken parts, have a ton of excitement on paper but WILL, you can rest assured, oh lawdy you can even go to bed on it right now and sleep tight and suck the hell out of that thumb - play considerably, in fact alarmingly below their optimum.

Good luck England. I do hope this'll be a close one and don't wish a blowout from NZ, but you brag in such an annoying way when you succeed at something hard I just can't say I wish victory for you either !

All-Blacks by...10. They're hot, engines running. England have that huge disadvantage of starting against the AB, off cold...Tuilagi was instrumental, utterly essential in England's win 2 years ago, he ain't there, the scrum won't be a huge advantage either, I think England were very good in NZ on the whole; although even a Wooden Spoon bearing France in a shattered, offensively-nonexistent state was competitive almost the same way a year prior (scores don't show it, but if you've seen all 6 tests you'll know).
..So I'm saying England are a class below if we're honest, will be rusty, missing pieces. NZ know what they're getting their bodies into, and their heads will be in the right place, plus they just got ANOTHER wakeup call in Bledisloe 3. They'll look to conquer London, in a way they can nod their heads to, not a lousy 2pt win, and start this tour off convincingly before tackling the rest on the way to a GSlam. They've got Savea, they've got Ben Smith, they've got Retallick, they've got Fekitoa, Piutau...all guys who can legit make a difference individually. AB's by like 9-13pts.

Yeah the Fijian dynamite against Savea the kiwi marmite :sly:

 

[Big Ewis]

Yeah the Fijian dynamite against Savea the kiwi marmite :sly:

EY !! Fijian ! You've got another thread and match to worry about, leave England and their poaches alone ! Well, "worry about" is a bit of a strong expression....let's say you have another match to be "more effectively concerned with"...

 

[Flyingdolphins]

Hahaha bro here have some kava. Don't you know England and Fiji are the same I mean they both wear white you know :sly:

 

[Big Ewis]

Hahaha bro here have some kava. Don't you know England and Fiji are the same I mean they both wear white you know :sly:

ahhh, just looked it up...so you guys have your own stuff ehhhh ??? mmm had never heard of it !...
well let's say English forwards + Fijian backs would work pretty damn well, especially considering they both wear white, of course..and dude, the 'sly' emoticon doesn't exist !! QUIT IT !!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

although I understand there are injuries in there, I've got to say: not a terribly exciting group (at all) but I'll bet ya England does well with relatively little on paper...AGAIN.

What are you on about?
Or has your joke gone way over my head?

Brookes, Lawes, Binny, Morgan, Care, Ford, Roko, May, Watson, Eastmond, Brown....England has way more exciting/highlight reel players than France do.

 

[Flyingdolphins]

ahhh, just looked it up...so you guys have your own stuff ehhhh ??? mmm had never heard of it !...
well let's say English forwards + Fijian backs would work pretty damn well, especially considering they both wear white, of course..and dude, the 'sly' emoticon doesn't exist !! QUIT IT !!

Yeah the English forwards and Fijian backs would eat All Blacks for breakfast. Them chicken legs on Jane and Carter would be delicious. no sly emoticon you happy now grand pa

 

[goodNumber10]

Why is that? I've been watching some of your deadballarea stuff and would be interested to hear your take. I can't say I've seen him play thirteen as far as I can remember, but to me his skillset seems to suit 12 better.

Couple of reasons:

He's got an excellent and accurate short passing game and runs straight, and that is suited to the 13 channel. Secondly he's not as ball greedy and has excellent decision making skills - that will benefit from him playing in the wider channel - so I wouldn't be surprised if we see the back three get a bit more ball.

He's not as slow as people think - he doesn't have great top end speed but his first 5 metres or so are quick enough to let him drift off the pass (see his try against the all blacks) and that works better at 13 where he'll have more space.

He'll probably benefit more form carrying the ball in less traffic, running a hard under's line from 13 will at least see him set some targets - he won't split the line like Tuilagi/Burrell bu we don't have them and no one else runs those hard lines they do, and form 13 he's less likely to be smashing it into two or three defenders.

Defence wise he seldom gets taken on the outside, stays square on the man and most of the time drives them back in or completes the tackle, but importantly he is the best defensive organiser in the backs - watch him for sarries, his arms are up and he's talking the whole time organising as the defence jockeys. At 13 (if he defends there) he will have to tackle less and will be able to organise on subsequent phases.

Just my opinion mind, lots of guys on here don't like him but i'd point out that attack is a team effort and it's how you slot into a system not how the individual changes the system.