[2014 EOYT] Scotland vs New Zealand

[William18]

I think Carter needs to play against Wales just to get some proper game time. There are only 6 tests to RWC 2015 - if we give everyone a game then no one gets a good amount of time directing the side.

 

[Shaggy]

Well, here's Hansen's thoughts - http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/63247438/All-Blacks-win-the-perfect-game-for-us

He seems to be happy that the fringe players managed to pull off a win

If we get that many injuries that we have to field that side at the RWC, I'm not confident we can retain it, but what are the chances we would have to field a team with that many changes from the regular team?

First, let me say that Scotland is a team on the rise, and I'll watch them with interest over the next 12 months, but the AB selectors obviously wanted to apply the pressure on the fringe players (like they did in the Tri-Nations, before the RWC 2011), and they just chose this game to do it.

For me, I have been concerned about what happens at Number 8 if Read gets injured, and Vito seems to be answering the call (finally), but the concern is whether he can go through uninjured himself (his form is not the concern).

The back up Halfback is the concern now - A.Smith is way ahead, but the good news is that all of the others have a great chance to secure the next spot.

I'm not sure that we'll see Dan Carter even off the bench next week, but hopefully he can have a full season next year to get him back to the great player that we know that he is.

Got to admit that I haven't really been a fan of Thrush before, but it's great to see him take his opportunity - he's definitely leap frogged a few of the other contenders IMO

Scots were on hiding to nothing as if they had won, it would have been denigrated by the "sub standard class" of this AB team and as they lost, really it was probably expected. Still, I think Italy are c****ing themselves and can only be looking forward to getting the wooden spoon in the 6 N as cannot now see anyone they can beat and indeed will be the whipping boys - even to the Scots!!

I don't really agree, you can only play against the opposition that's put in front of you, and I for one, would not have tried to "cheapen" the Scot's achievement (if they'd achieved it) by making excuses about the team New Zealand fielded.

Statistically speaking New Zealand's unbeaten record against Ireland and Scotland, has to end some day, but no All Black will want to be in that side, and I'm sure us supporters won't want to see it ... we will probably say "we played poorly" or some might say "we didn't have ... playing", but it shouldn't take anything away from a winning team's achievement

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

The back up Halfback is the concern now - A.Smith is way ahead, but the good news is that all of the others have a great chance to secure the next spot.

Call it Waikato bias, but I'm starting to think Brad Weber might be the answer. He was very good for Waikato this season and although he's a quick passer/runner, I think his greatest asset over the other contenders is his cool head. Hopefully he will be starting for the Chiefs next year (with Pulu adding impact off the bench).

 

[Helmy]

As a Hurricanes supporter, I really want Perenara to do well, and I thought he did so against the USA, but my God, he was awful in this game. It's almost like he's trying too hard to make an impact and the basics suffer because of it. I really don't know. His decision making meant the backline suffered a lot in this game, and his control of the mauls from behind was pretty average as well.

Still, I don't want this to be about how awful the majority of the All Blacks were, because Scotland played brilliantly and numerous mix matched All Blacks teams have put 50 odd points on Scottish teams in the past.

 

[nickdnz]

Call it Waikato bias, but I'm starting to think Brad Weber might be the answer. He was very good for Waikato this season and although he's a quick passer/runner, I think his greatest asset over the other contenders is his cool head. Hopefully he will be starting for the Chiefs next year (with Pulu adding impact off the bench).

I think Peranara just needs to refind his 2012-2013 form. At the moment he just doesn't seem to look comfortable. That said I am a big fan of Brad Weber, was one of the stars of the ITM Cup. Not sure how his defense is, but it didn't seem to be a big problem considering his size.

 

[Helmy]

I think Peranara just needs to refind his 2012-2013 form. At the moment he just doesn't seem to look comfortable. That said I am a big fan of Brad Weber, was one of the stars of the ITM Cup. Not sure how his defense is, but it didn't seem to be a big problem considering his size.

Do you think that his injury after his break through season has had an effect on his form? I didn't think he played poorly for the Canes this year, albeit not his best, although I do remember saying a few unkind things about him after a couple of costly mistakes in the game against the Waratahs. In that case I thought it was stupid decision making.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Do you think that his injury after his break through season has had an effect on his form? I didn't think he played poorly for the Canes this year, albeit not his best, although I do remember saying a few unkind things about him after a couple of costly mistakes in the game against the Waratahs. In that case I thought it was stupid decision making.

He hasn't been the same player since he broke his leg in 2012(?).

That being said I'm not 100% sure that the All Blacks gameplan suits Perenara's style of play. He's got a quick pass, yes, but the NZ style of play is quite structured now - not really the arena Perenara flourishes in. What made him stand out so much was his X-factor. Is that what we need from a halfback?

 

[Helmy]

He hasn't been the same player since he broke his leg in 2012(?).

That being said I'm not 100% sure that the All Blacks gameplan suits Perenara's style of play. He's got a quick pass, yes, but the NZ style of play is quite structured now - not really the arena Perenara flourishes in. What made him stand out so much was his X-factor. Is that what we need from a halfback?

Perhaps the reason why he's having problems is because he's trying to play the x-factor style within a structure, which could also account for the poor decision making as he's got too much time to think.

 

[smartcooky]

Well, here's Hansen's thoughts - http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/63247438/All-Blacks-win-the-perfect-game-for-us

He seems to be happy that the fringe players managed to pull off a win

If we get that many injuries that we have to field that side at the RWC, I'm not confident we can retain it, but what are the chances we would have to field a team with that many changes from the regular team?

Shaggy.

Hansen has either pulled off a master stroke of coaching genius by exposing his fringe players to this sort of match pressure (so that both they, and he, could see how they would perform) or he was dead lucky today.

I cannot decide which!

 

[nzlizard]

Shaggy.

Hansen has either pulled off a master stroke of coaching genius by exposing his fringe players to this sort of match pressure (so that both they, and he, could see how they would perform) or he was dead lucky today.

I cannot decide which!

I'm going with a foot in each camp, expose the fringe and see how they go, but he didn't think they would be this exposed.

 

[Mikel92]

I think Carter needs to play against Wales just to get some proper game time. There are only 6 tests to RWC 2015 - if we give everyone a game then no one gets a good amount of time directing the side.

Yeah I think this is spot on. Resting certain players is fine. This game we needed to do a bit of that with the likes of Read, Whitelock, O. Franks, and we did. But I wouldn't be rotating too much. And that's kinda why I wanted to see SBW start. Encouraging signs are there, at least for SBW, but we're not going to help that cause by giving him a stop-start-stop-start pattern. Carter on the other hand, like I've said a few times, he tends to take a few matches to get back into things. Super Rugby next year is going to be important for him.

I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bath water, but I think I would have been happier with Kerr-Barlow there today. I've never been a huge fan of his decision making, but I'm sure his speed was never a huge issue. I hope for TJ's sake and the AB's that he finds a bit of form in next year's Super. The gulf between Aaron Smith and everyone else is pretty damn big.

 

[smartcooky]

I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bath water, but I think I would have been happier with Kerr-Barlow there today. I've never been a huge fan of his decision making, but I'm sure his speed was never a huge issue. I hope for TJ's sake and the AB's that he finds a bit of form in next year's Super. The gulf between Aaron Smith and everyone else is pretty damn big.

I think Perenara has never really recaptured the sparkling form he had before he broke his leg playing that nothing mid-season exhibition match against the Reds in 2012.

 

[turmeric2015]

Shaggy.

Hansen has either pulled off a master stroke of coaching genius by exposing his fringe players to this sort of match pressure (so that both they, and he, could see how they would perform) or he was dead lucky today.

I cannot decide which!

After the whole, this is a dress rehearsal for the RWC BS that we got fed, I am finding it a bit hard to identify the stuff that is coming out of the AB camp which is genuine and which is spin.

With regards to what you are saying, my take is Hansen is simply trying to put a positive spin on what was a rubbish game from the ABs, and at the same time defend making wholesale (and at times unnecessary) changes which almost resulted in a loss!

To an extent, there are some positives in what went down, but by in large this would have been far from what the ABs were after leading into this game I would have thought.

 

[Darwin]

The problem with Perenara is not that he is a poor halfback. Indeed in some ways he is a more complete halfback than Smith. It is that he is a square peg that the AB's selectors are trying to fit into a round hole.

In my opinion Aaron Smith is the single most important player in the AB's at the moment. It's not just that he is so clearly the best halfback in the country (and perhaps the world?), it is that the AB's have designed a game-plan that only he can execute properly. The AB's require their halfback to (a) be quick to the breakdown, (b) deliver the ball immediately once they get to the breakdown, and (c) have a fast accurate pass. No other halfback in NZ rugby (and perhaps world rugby) are capable of performing those 3 aspects remotely as effectively as Smith does. That creates a massive issue. If Smith is absent (rested or injured) the AB's current game plan just doesn't work.

I'm not sure what the solution to this problem is. If the replacement halfback can't replicate what Smith does the AB's have no option but to have another game plan. This is far from ideal. However I would much rather have Perenara playing like Perenara (or Kerr-Barlow playing like Kerr-Barlow) rather than Perenara trying to play like Aaron Smith. As bad as Perenara was he still better than Pulu, who threw a couple of shocking passes in the 2 minutes he was on the field....

Personally I would consider Andy Ellis, but the AB's selectors aren't interested in him. He does actually fulfills two of the aspects the AB's look for in a halfback (fast to the breakdown and can deliver the ball immediately), the problem is that his pass is sssssssssssssssssllllllllllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww and not that accurate. I don't rate Pulu - he is far to skittish for test level in my opinion. Brad Weber is talented, but will need a massive Super Rugby season to force his way past the incumbents.

 

[Shaggy]

The problem with Perenara is not that he is a poor halfback. Indeed in some ways he is a more complete halfback than Smith. It is that he is a square peg that the AB's selectors are trying to fit into a round hole.

In my opinion Aaron Smith is the single most important player in the AB's at the moment. It's not just that he is so clearly the best halfback in the country (and perhaps the world?), it is that the AB's have designed a game-plan that only he can execute properly. The AB's require their halfback to (a) be quick to the breakdown, (b) deliver the ball immediately once they get to the breakdown, and (c) have a fast accurate pass. No other halfback in NZ rugby (and perhaps world rugby) are capable of performing those 3 aspects remotely as effectively as Smith does. That creates a massive issue. If Smith is absent (rested or injured) the AB's current game plan just doesn't work.

I'm not sure what the solution to this problem is. If the replacement halfback can't replicate what Smith does the AB's have no option but to have another game plan. This is far from ideal. However I would much rather have Perenara playing like Perenara (or Kerr-Barlow playing like Kerr-Barlow) rather than Perenara trying to play like Aaron Smith. As bad as Perenara was he still better than Pulu, who threw a couple of shocking passes in the 2 minutes he was on the field....

Personally I would consider Andy Ellis, but the AB's selectors aren't interested in him. He does actually fulfills two of the aspects the AB's look for in a halfback (fast to the breakdown and can deliver the ball immediately), the problem is that his pass is sssssssssssssssssllllllllllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww and not that accurate. I don't rate Pulu - he is far to skittish for test level in my opinion. Brad Weber is talented, but will need a massive Super Rugby season to force his way past the incumbents.

I agree, players should play their natural game, and I think, to some degree, hat they do have licence to do so.

Some time ago, I was reading about Barrett and Cruden being told not to try and play like Dan Carter - just to play their natural game, so perhaps Perenara could benefit from this also.

I'm also a fan of known combinations, so perhaps if they start Vito, Perenara, and Barrett in some games, they should get good results from all of them ... Perenara also seems to be alright as an impact player too.

I'm a bit iffy about TKB to be honest, but who ever they go with for the back ups for Smith, I hope that they put pressure on one another so that we get the best out of them.

I think Scotland are going to be a bit of a handful for the other Six Nations sides this year, and are timing their run for the RWC nicely - it's great to see

@smartcooky - one thing you can say about the current AB regime, is that they aren't afraid to take risks, but it would have been interesting to see if heads rolled, if they'd have lost this match

 

[sigesige00]

Scotland will trounce Japan and USA, and then must beat Samoa.

 

[Shaggy]

Scotland will trounce Japan and USA, and then must beat Samoa.

Yes, or that other team ... who is it again ... oh yeah ... South Africa

 

[Larksea]

interesting game

Scotland played well though if they were as good as we were led to believe before the game they probably should have won this match. They even had what IMO the magical ingredient to beating the AB's (an intercept try, and disrupt lineouts) but really that was all they could muster on attack.

That first scrum was epic, the Scots got the penalty on a techmicality but the AB's made the statement as the ball sat under the hookers feet but he could not hook it knowing that if he did his scrum would collapse around him and it would have been 3 points for the All Blacks.

Lots of interesting information to process for the AB's and valuable experience as well.

- Parsons was ok, lineouts were shaky, scrums were actually very good.
- Bird was better, some good physical work as above scrums good line outs bad.
- Piutau was really good I thought, could have done with some more ball.
- Carter seemed to take a step backward, but other than the 1 goal he missed that he should have got I dont think it was his fault (see Perenara below)
- Slade His stocks are rising, he's not really showing anything special in general play but he continues to kick goals when others are missing them, he's almost the opposite of Cruden who's running the cut well but missing goals and has bugger all range. The reality is the goals are more important! Which is why I still think Tom Taylor still has a place in this squad. Most of the close games the AB's have had recently would have been a lot easier with a guy who kicks 80-90% from really good range and can tackle anything. making play is never a problem the team is full of play makers. And its not like he's a slouch in that area either.
- Perenara, if the All Blacks looked like they were playing like they had no time and someone was holding them back it's because they were. Unfortunately that was Perenara. His clearance was slow, he seemed to get the ball in his hands then look around and decide what to do. Sometimes fiddle with the ball again then have another look before passing. Speed is everything, often its more important to just get the ball out as fast as possible than make the right decision with a 50-50 call and most of the time the decision you make is pointless once a couple of seconds are wasted in in the process. Our 9 should be deciding what he is going to do before the ball comes and then commiting to executing that as fast as he can. Perenara's clearance was worse than Cowan and Elis, Weepu was a bit better but still slow compared to Aaron Smith. And it sucks because we never really saw what carter, Piutau, Fekitoa, Crotty, Slade or Ben Smith could do with quick ball. It was all very pedestrian. I actually think right now Pulu is our best backup 9, even considering Elis who is overseas and TKB who is injured. Shame because I think Perenara at his best is the Best 9 in NZ.
- Pulu should have been given more time, he was obviously bursting out of his skin to get on. Came on and made a huge smashing tackle and the commentator thought it was Savea. I think he had less than 5min in the end.
- Vito's time on the field summed up his whole carrier so far for me. One bit of brilliance to show us what he really can do, basically anonymous the rest of the time to remind us why he's never established himself as a test player and then off injured. Messam and Kaino are much better options for 6 and backing up Read at 8.
- Savea, Ben Franks, Coles and SBW made a really nice impact, Messam had a good 45min and oddly helped fix a lot of the line out problems, it's interesting how Messam only really gets used for lineouts when they are a problem (I guess its not the best idea to tie your 6 or 7 up in lineouts they miss important work in the lose), and it works, not the first time that has happened and he does the same job for the chiefs. If not for that "Super Bench" the game could have been lost.
- Thrush, this Journeyman player who initially only really came into the All Black squad as a short term injury cover and was lucky to get a couple of caps has established himself as a go-to guy. He's not an all out lineout guy which is a shame and he's no Retalick or Whitelock but he's been out in pressure situations a number of times now and thrived. He's a smart hard working player and his experience has been a huge value to this squad. I get the feeling he is a very good scrummaging lock too. It's hard to judge sometimes without having a really close look. But with his build, huge shoulders, vast experience and work ethic I believe he makes a good impact there. Scrums do seem good when he's on. Was interesting hearing him talk of his experience of that first scrum.

Bring on this last game, some massive firepower to bring back and they should be raring to go. We will also get a look at what the selectors will see as the first choice 23 as well.

McCaw looking a little tired. Shame with the close nature of the game and Vito's injury we could not bring him off early. But he has another game in him for sure

 

[The Jones Boy]

McCaw was awesome in his tackling. Scotland are the kind of opposition you can get away with this team selection malarkey.
The baby blacks were a bit out of their depth and that is perfect for finding out who s going to put their hands up to start swimming.
Having king hitters on the bench was always the safety plan.
One game doesn't make or break players but those who take their chances are gong to get more opportunities.
Well played to Scotland, good effort.

 

[admartian]

Pun of the day from the inimitable Brian Moore when Savea kicked on and Hogg took it to ground and Moore said about Hogg......."He did well there under Savea pressure.............."!! I thought it was funny anyway!!!

Haha, I clocked that too

Glad it wasn't just me!