[2014 EOYT] Wales vs New Zealand

[Mikel92]

I thought Barrett was awful. Nothing he did went right, until the last 15. Kicking is erractic (same with Cruden), he didn't know when to pass, kick, run, and when he did he made a hash of it. Might have been an off-game, but neither Cruden nor Barrett are pushing to start ahead of Carter when fit.

Slade has always been a decent player. I think some people forget that his years in the wilderness weren't because he was dire, but because of his awful run of injuries.

SBW was also out of it, Roberts outshone him, but they play different roles within the team really. We don't have big ball-carrying forwards like Read, so Roberts plays the role. Lydiate leaves much to be desired around the park. Warburton exceptional, really classy player. Faletau had a slight case of the drops, but he is very good behind a retreating scrum. I wish he had a better pack to play with at club level. What was with James? Three pens in a row, a word from Barnes, and then no more issues.

Lineout is still tragic. Is it the thrower, jumper, lifter? I say all of the above. We have gone through many hookers in the last five years (Rees, Bennett, Williams, Burns, Hibbard, Owens) so it isn't solely that. Part of the issue stems from the fact neither of our locks are really lineout-types. For the Ospreys, Bernardo has run the lineout this season, while I cannot comment on the Scarlets, but I have seen Kelly, Snyman, Earle all used. Charteris hasn't had his 2011/12 for since that time period, and I worry about him starting. Davies isn't much of a lineout guy either, while Evans is done. Our only up-and-coming locks are in the U20 right now... Can we find out Bernardo has a Welsh nan?

Totally agree with all the points you made here. Especially about Cruden/Barrett/Carter. I just hope Carter shows what he CAN do in Super Rugby next year, because if he gets to that level - as they say in America, "forget about it!!". It'd be a no contest.

Re your lineout: From outsiders perspective I thought it was a bit of everything. The locks were pretty poor in collecting the ball, especially in the second half. But I thought in the first half your hooker was a bit dire. And twice I noted when he threw it in properly (according to the refs) I was sitting there saying "that's not straight". Completely unbiased armchair critic of course

 

[ENZED-88]

Sorry pal just curious

 

[Helmy]

By the looks of it, like most New Zealand fans, I was interested in seeing how Barrett went at 10. Like everyone else given the chance to start there in this tour, I thought he was average, which was disappointing. Like Perenara last week, it could be argued that Barrett is best in open play, as has been touched on already by other posters. However, my thinking is, without anyone given a prolonged run in the 10 jersey, how can we really know who's in form? To me, that seems to be the issue for the main three, Carter, Barrett and Cruden, whereby they're being rotated so much no one has really stood out as the easy pick.

What guts me so much about Barrett is he's played so well off of the bench prior to being selected for these games and now he's bombing it. Again, to echo others, it's hard to see that Slade won't do the same if given the same opportunities.

Finally, in regards to goal kicking, I can't understand why everyone bar Slade has been so awful at it this tour. Could it be the differences in the home nation's balls changing every week? I don't know, but Barrett at least is usually a great goal kicker for the Hurricanes, so it's baffling.

 

[DuncTheDoodle]

There's not much you can do when your hooker couldn't hit a barn door. The lineout stats have been up considerably this season without supposed 'lineout magician' Ian Evans, a player who never really reached his potential, partly through injury, partly through just being a bit dull.

Yanto hit his potnetial over the course of maybe three campaigns, and when he did he was bloody good. Otherwise, agreed, he really wasn't all that, more a huge injured lump. Baldwin has improved a lot this season, but still isn't up to scratch at international level.

 

[Bon]

The A Smith-Barrett-Williams-Smith combo was tried to give management a look at how they would do.Apparently Hansen had the starting lineups for each game of the tour pencilled in before the group left NZ. Barrett was certainly pressured by the Wales rush defence, which made life difficult for Williams as well,I expect both would have learned from the experience. I thought Wales gave it their best shot, but approaching half time with the score three all, I just couldn't see them taking the game out given the AB's proven ability to finish strongly.

 

[Mikel92]

By the looks of it, like most New Zealand fans, I was interested in seeing how Barrett went at 10. Like everyone else given the chance to start there in this tour, I thought he was average, which was disappointing. Like Perenara last week, it could be argued that Barrett is best in open play, as has been touched on already by other posters. However, my thinking is, without anyone given a prolonged run in the 10 jersey, how can we really know who's in form? To me, that seems to be the issue for the main three, Carter, Barrett and Cruden, whereby they're being rotated so much no one has really stood out as the easy pick.

Exactly what I said before the game started. Pick a first five, and stick with him, even if he is out of form. Continuity should allow for growth. That's kinda why I wanted Carter to start, with regular time he tends to get better. But the general consensus is that people on here like Cruden. Doesn't really matter who it is so much, as long as you are consistent and don't chop and change every five minutes.

But I guess theres the other argument, different skills for different teams. Not sure if Barrett's skills were suited for this Welsh game (bar the last 15 minutes).

 

[Helmy]

Exactly what I said before the game started. Pick a first five, and stick with him, even if he is out of form. Continuity should allow for growth. That's kinda why I wanted Carter to start, with regular time he tends to get better. But the general consensus is that people on here like Cruden. Doesn't really matter who it is so much, as long as you are consistent and don't chop and change every five minutes.

But I guess theres the other argument, different skills for different teams. Not sure if Barrett's skills were suited for this Welsh game (bar the last 15 minutes).

Even though he hardly looked any better against England. Personally what I've found with Cruden is that he's brilliant some games and then average the next two or three. But, because he's had a big crack at the position, we're more inclined to say he's the better of the three. He's not awful, per say, and I don't think Barrett was awful, either. I actually think Barrett looked better than Carter did against Scotland, especially once he moved to fullback. What hasn't been touched on is that even though Barrett was switched to fullback, there was a lot of interchange going on between Slade and Barrett over who was directing the back line plays, then the other might run in as the extra man and create the overlap. Therefore, I don't think that the genius was Slade to first five, but rather the combination of two first fives/utility backs (depends if you're the player or the selectors, there) taking it to the Welsh with differentiating running styles, which would have made their defensive advantage harder to maintain, especially, I dunno in the last 15 minutes or so...

Although, I'm not sure that it was just Barrett who was effected by the speed of passing required to beat the rush defence. Where, say a Ma'a Nonu or even a Crotty (?) might have been more reliable in getting the ball to Conrad Smith, the link frequently broke down with SBW, putting more pressure on an already under pressure Barrett. C Smith, who still had a good game, suffered as a result. He had a tidy game when he could of had MOTM with a better functioning back line. Still, how's about that pass (forward or not)?

Speaking of which, and I was never a Crotty fan, but I thought he had one of the more impressive tours and wouldn't mind seeing more of him at 12 and Smith at 13. I know there's always a tendency to have a bigger guy a la SBW or Nonu at 12, but Crotty's by no means little. Just a thought.

 

[Icemn]

talk about awkward...

View attachment 3509

that look on DC's face is more of disappointment... you can see he is thinking...

"fck... if i knew Barnes was talking this i could have added some flavour... special flavour"

 

[Jack Reacher]

I sound like a broken record to my mates of late with my winning formula theory - but again its proven. Yes NZ looked rough and made errors for 70 minutes but they still kept the opposition out too - thats the difference. The risk taking is so much lower during the first hour of games now than it used to be - hence less tries early on, but also less conceded points too. Not for one minute was I nervous on Saturday, it was always going to happen.
NZ will always score at least 3 tries a match and to compete you need to do the same, you can't rely on penalties to win (albeit with current goal kicking woes!)
I would love to see the stats for points for and against during the last 15-20 minutes of matches subtracting last minute consolation tries (England have scored a few this year) to show how dominant NZ really are at this facet.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Even though he hardly looked any better against England. Personally what I've found with Cruden is that he's brilliant some games and then average the next two or three. But, because he's had a big crack at the position, we're more inclined to say he's the better of the three. He's not awful, per say, and I don't think Barrett was awful, either. I actually think Barrett looked better than Carter did against Scotland, especially once he moved to fullback. What hasn't been touched on is that even though Barrett was switched to fullback, there was a lot of interchange going on between Slade and Barrett over who was directing the back line plays, then the other might run in as the extra man and create the overlap. Therefore, I don't think that the genius was Slade to first five, but rather the combination of two first fives/utility backs (depends if you're the player or the selectors, there) taking it to the Welsh with differentiating running styles, which would have made their defensive advantage harder to maintain, especially, I dunno in the last 15 minutes or so...

Although, I'm not sure that it was just Barrett who was effected by the speed of passing required to beat the rush defence. Where, say a Ma'a Nonu or even a Crotty (?) might have been more reliable in getting the ball to Conrad Smith, the link frequently broke down with SBW, putting more pressure on an already under pressure Barrett. C Smith, who still had a good game, suffered as a result. He had a tidy game when he could of had MOTM with a better functioning back line. Still, how's about that pass (forward or not)?

Speaking of which, and I was never a Crotty fan, but I thought he had one of the more impressive tours and wouldn't mind seeing more of him at 12 and Smith at 13. I know there's always a tendency to have a bigger guy a la SBW or Nonu at 12, but Crotty's by no means little. Just a thought.

Cruden was really good against England though? (bar goalkicking). He ran the back line so much better than Barrett did against Wales, or Carter did against Scotland.

SBW's hands were pretty ropey, but you could equally say that a lot of SBW's issues were created from Barrett, he gave him some hospital passes with Roberts on top of him, one move he even threw an intercept pass at the D line on an wrap attempt. Also, Barrett's short kicking game was nowhere near good enough to keep trying it. It was obviously a coaching directive to combat the rush D, but Barrett couldn't actually do it under match pressure. A couple out on the full, one charged down in our 22, another penalty directly conceded off one.

Agreed on the fact having two guys with the ability to mix and match at first receiver was handy, that is actually one aspect where Dagg is decent from fullback. I do think it is clear that Barrett is a better player with more space and the game breaking up. If anything in the future I'd sub off one of the outside backs and have him come on to act as a ball handler and to just roam about creating havoc.

 

[Big Ewis]

talk about awkward...

View attachment 3509

hahaha , +1.
Bayne Warnes is making that face like "mmm thanks mate, 'preciate it" like he's not taking it for granted and Carter's like "oh geez fkn....this is it, ay...this is the low point everybody's been talkin about..."
I wouldn't be surprised if he cried in the shower later on that night.

 

[Helmy]

Cruden was really good against England though? (bar goalkicking). He ran the back line so much better than Barrett did against Wales, or Carter did against Scotland.

SBW's hands were pretty ropey, but you could equally say that a lot of SBW's issues were created from Barrett, he gave him some hospital passes with Roberts on top of him, one move he even threw an intercept pass at the D line on an wrap attempt. Also, Barrett's short kicking game was nowhere near good enough to keep trying it. It was obviously a coaching directive to combat the rush D, but Barrett couldn't actually do it under match pressure. A couple out on the full, one charged down in our 22, another penalty directly conceded off one.

Agreed on the fact having two guys with the ability to mix and match at first receiver was handy, that is actually one aspect where Dagg is decent from fullback. I do think it is clear that Barrett is a better player with more space and the game breaking up. If anything in the future I'd sub off one of the outside backs and have him come on to act as a ball handler and to just roam about creating havoc.

I didn't think Cruden was that great against England, but opinions make the world go round.

It was a mix of the two, probably. Especially as it was their first time with them starting/playing together (?). Every pass in that game was bordering on a hospital pass, and it looked to me like the game plan for the All Blacks was to do short, quick passes throughout the back line until it created an opening, usually by having a forward or two entering the back line. Much like Barrett's short kicking game, it didn't function that well. Then again, two tries were scored off of Barrett kicks, albeit with him at fullback, and another resulted from a long pass from Barrett to Smith then Savea. For someone who had a **** game, he had his hand in all but one of the tries scored by the All Blacks.

In regards to the double up on the first receivers, I don't think we'll see it as much if Cruden is on the pitch, as he's not as renowned for being to play in multiple positions as Slade, Carter and Barrett are. Could we see DC back at 12 one day, I wonder?

 

[donmcdazzle]

I didn't think Cruden was that great against England, but opinions make the world go round.

It was a mix of the two, probably. Especially as it was their first time with them starting/playing together (?). Every pass in that game was bordering on a hospital pass, and it looked to me like the game plan for the All Blacks was to do short, quick passes throughout the back line until it created an opening, usually by having a forward or two entering the back line. Much like Barrett's short kicking game, it didn't function that well. Then again, two tries were scored off of Barrett kicks, albeit with him at fullback, and another resulted from a long pass from Barrett to Smith then Savea. For someone who had a **** game, he had his hand in all but one of the tries scored by the All Blacks.

In regards to the double up on the first receivers, I don't think we'll see it as much if Cruden is on the pitch, as he's not as renowned for being to play in multiple positions as Slade, Carter and Barrett are. Could we see DC back at 12 one day, I wonder?

Cruden had no glaring errors against England, and created/made linebreaks. The backline generally functioned pretty well all match, and he scored a try. Barrett had numerous blunders against Wales, and his best moments were from fullback as you say when he didn't have the burden of running the show, which I genuinely think slows him down. I think we can all agree he has been far more effective when coming off the bench, whether that's at 10 or 15.

Dagg often chimes in at first receiver when Cruden plays, and it would only take Barrett or Slade coming on at fullback to do the exact same thing as what happened on the weekend. e.g. if Cruden started, sub off Piutau for Barrett/Slade to come on at fullback and play in the line a bit more.

 

[Helmy]

Cruden had no glaring errors against England, and created/made linebreaks. The backline generally functioned pretty well all match, and he scored a try. Barrett had numerous blunders against Wales, and his best moments were from fullback as you say when he didn't have the burden of running the show, which I genuinely think slows him down. I think we can all agree he has been far more effective when coming off the bench, whether that's at 10 or 15.

Dagg often chimes in at first receiver when Cruden plays, and it would only take Barrett or Slade coming on at fullback to do the exact same thing as what happened on the weekend. e.g. if Cruden started, sub off Piutau for Barrett/Slade to come on at fullback and play in the line a bit more.

Like I say, I'll agree to disagree on that one. Rather I'm just trying to point out that I don't believe Cruden is as superior to Barrett as some think he is.

I suspect it's a play we will be seeing a lot more and that the coaches had planned to play that way in advance.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Like I say, I'll agree to disagree on that one. Rather I'm just trying to point out that I don't believe Cruden is as superior to Barrett as some think he is.

I suspect it's a play we will be seeing a lot more and that the coaches had planned to play that way in advance.

Fair enough, but you haven't really explained why you think he had an average game against England like I did with Barrett against Wales. Super rugby next year should be a good competition, Barrett, Nonu and Smith you would expect to go pretty well. Cruden and SBW at the chiefs, Slade, Carter and Crotty at the Crusaders. The form of these combos could be pretty crucial.

 

[Chikwa]

Slade came on when there was a sense of urgency injected by the AB's. The game had also begun to open up. He did well though it was easier to do so when he came on. AB's seemed to lack ideas in attack. Was Barrett instructed to kick over the rush defence? I cannnot understand why the AB's found it such a challenge when they have faced much better teams using the rush defence like the springboks . Why was sonny bill Williams given so much game time when he was below par?
Looking ahead is Cruden going to be sacrificed because of Slade's versatility ? Suddenly Hansen says there is no room for Cruden on the bench if he is not the first choice fly half.
It seems to me Andy Ellis needs to come back. They are no able deputies for the outstanding Aron Smith. Carrying Vito has not answered the question of finding a deputy no 8.
All Blacks unbeaten without playing particularly well. Top 5 nations can beat each other at next years World Cup. Hansen has got some thinking to do.

 

[Helmy]

Fair enough, but you haven't really explained why you think he had an average game against England like I did with Barrett against Wales. Super rugby next year should be a good competition, Barrett, Nonu and Smith you would expect to go pretty well. Cruden and SBW at the chiefs, Slade, Carter and Crotty at the Crusaders. The form of these combos could be pretty crucial.

The Welsh game is a lot fresher in my mind than the England game. I just recalling thinking that neither Cruden or Barrett took the chance to really impress in that game. I also think if Cruden was having a great game, the coaches would have left him on for the whole game and/or until the game was safe. Especially when you consider that when Cruden was without a doubt the number one choice, he would play out games, or if Barrett did come on, it was at fullback, or if the game was sewn up. Neither of them are at the level of a fit and in form Carter, however.

I expect once those combos have had the chance to link up during Super rugby that we'll see them playing together for the All Blacks, as well. As a collective I prefer Smith and Nonu in the midfield together. Whether SBW or Nonu are better individually, I don't know, but Nonu and Smith has been the best midfield combination in world rugby for a few years now. Which is why I expect Nonu to play well back in the Hurricanes environment, as Smith complements him well.

 

[SelimNiai]

1. There was an opportunity where Roberts took on two defenders and nearly had the offload to Biggar who would have been through relatively unopposed -Half chance.

2. When Wales got the overlap and Cuthbert took took it into the 22, slight knock on from Halfpenny and we had forward ready with players available left. Half chance

3. Davies' kick out of ruck which North just needed to get a boot on or pick up to be home and dry with no Fullback and about 15 metres away from any other player - Try scoring chance butchered.
4. Warburton's break but only had a 2nd row on his right, great opportunity which would have been taken by the All blacks.

If you ignore the last 10, you see that Wales did make some good line break but could not control the set piece at all which costed us huge amounts of possession and momentum.

Again, never have i said we should have won but we did create chances numerous chances. It was our dismal set piece which costed us huge momentum and possession. Everything else, i'm pretty happy with. Ahtough we should have been more clynical in attack, but again our set piece cost us a lot too.

to note - there are probably more chances, but i'm not watching the whole thing again to prove a point to you.

To call that "butchered" is stupidly harsh. To call it butchered youd have to say it was 100% guarenteed North woukld have got in. There was still a lot fo work to do even if he'd made contact. He didn't get the luck of the bounce that Barrett did later on in the game.

 

[Jbobo]

To call that "butchered" is stupidly harsh. To call it butchered youd have to say it was 100% guarenteed North woukld have got in. There was still a lot fo work to do even if he'd made contact. He didn't get the luck of the bounce that Barrett did later on in the game.

If North had tried to pick it up instead of kick it (don't blame him not doing so), i would have backed him to make it. He really had a lot of space. Against the All Blacks, it was a golden opportunity and you have to take it.

Okay...When i say butchered, i don't mean personally by North as the bounce we awkward but then choosing to try and kick it was a gamble and he lost. You get what i mean, you add in the correct terminology as you see fit.

 

[Larksea]

hahaha , +1.
Bayne Warnes is making that face like "mmm thanks mate, 'preciate it" like he's not taking it for granted and Carter's like "oh geez fkn....this is it, ay...this is the low point everybody's been talkin about..."
I wouldn't be surprised if he cried in the shower later on that night.

classic pic IMO, I mean heck body language says a lot. No eye contact and the arms are doing all the work they dont want to get any closer than they have to hahaha

find it interesting people getting on barretts case. IMO he had a good first 10min then made a poor kick but not a disaster, he was ok through the middle of the game but nothing special, dropped off a tackle but pulled it back and made some important ones as well. then when the game started to open up he was right at the cutting edge. Was pretty clear the focus of the Welsh defense was on him and SBW Goal kicking was ok but not his best. He missed 1 maybe two you would expect him to get if he was back on form. To go back to the problem I see with Crudens kicking. the Penalty Barrett kicked from 50m is a kick that Cruden simply doesn't have the range for unless the weather is in his favor and/or it's high altitude. But this particular example would have simply been out of his range. Come WC finals time we cant turn down shots like that. Neither Cruden or Barrett can going into a WC with their kicking form like it is now. I do expect them both to be better next year after some time injury free.

kinda an interesting tour. I feel like the AB's didn't really show anything creative on attack at any stage and you would have to say they are already holding their cards close knowing the WC is actually very close, just a handful of tests away.