2014 Junior World Championship - June 2 to 20

[ratsapprentice]

Yeah the team was probably better overall than this years or lasts - but the point is it's bit a unfair to point out the success those players have gone on to have for another 2 years because we haven't seen what sort of trajectory their careers are on.
The 2011 squad were also fortunate in that their senior careers began at the same time as Lancaster's England clearout.
There's also a difference in how talent was spread throughout the teams - I'd expect some of the 2013 side to walk into that 2011 side.

From 2013's squad:

Full Caps - Nowell

In the EPS - Anthony Watson, Sam Hill, Henry Slade, LCD, Scott Wilson, Ollie Devoto.

7's Caps - Jack Clifford

Guys likely to be involved in the future - Ross Moriarty (love this guy), Harry Sloan, Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi, Dave Sisi

 

[Maverick1987]

I've got:
1) Farrell, 2) Ford, 3) Wade, 4) Yarde, 5) Monsieur Berry, 6) Thomas, 7) Kvesic

***I can't count***
8) Vunipola

Think that's it? Daly hasn't got a full cap, just "England XV/Saxons", same with Buchanan, Matthews and Collier, Gray only has 7s caps,

Ahhhhh I counted games against the baa baas :/ my bad

 

[Peat]

I tend to agree with Peat's point that the 2011 England U20 side was very good. I'm far from an expert on England age-grade sides - my assessment is more based on the quality of the NZ side that year. As Peat states it was a very good NZ side - on paper at least I would suggest it was the strongest we have at U20 level (thought perhaps it wasn't as well coached as some of our previous sides). I'm not sure I would necessarily agree that England outplayed us in the final, but I feel it was a 50:50 game. As well as the likes of Barrett, Piutau and Cane (who Peat has already mentioned), we also had Brodie Retallick & TJ Perenara starting, along with fringe All Blacks such as Dominic Bird, Steven Luatua, Luke Whitelock, and Francis Saili, and a number who have developed into regular Super Rugby starters (Brad Shields, Ben Tameifuna, Gareth Anscombe & Lima Sopoaga). Any side that could match that NZ side must have been pretty damn good!

My recollection, possibly wrongly, is that England had more chances and the better of the tight exchanges, but were not sharp enough to finish them off. The Kiwis did take their chances and has Anscombe taking the kicks rather than George Ford... there was an 11 point difference which by coincidence was the same amount of points as Ford left out there. I don't think Anscombe missed a thing. If we'd swapped kickers, England would have won comfortably. Certainly, looking back, England turned down a gilt edged opportunity for their first JWC win.

Yeah the team was probably better overall than this years or lasts - but the point is it's bit a unfair to point out the success those players have gone on to have for another 2 years because we haven't seen what sort of trajectory their careers are on.
The 2011 squad were also fortunate in that their senior careers began at the same time as Lancaster's England clearout.
There's also a difference in how talent was spread throughout the teams - I'd expect some of the 2013 side to walk into that 2011 side.

From 2013's squad:

Full Caps - Nowell

In the EPS - Anthony Watson, Sam Hill, Henry Slade, LCD, Scott Wilson, Ollie Devoto.

7's Caps - Jack Clifford

Guys likely to be involved in the future - Ross Moriarty (love this guy), Harry Sloan, Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi, Dave Sisi

Agreed, the caps tally is as much for interest as everything. Sinckler was in the 2013 squad as well, wasn't he?

Interesting question which of the 2013 guys would get in. I couldn't bring myself to drop any of the 2011 tight five, they were a monsterous unit, but equally guys like LCD, DHA and Sinckler were and are very good. Stooke I think was part of that squad as well, another guy who's already a Saxon. Never really rated Moriarty as much as some, but Sam Jones potential wasn't as obvious back then. Clifford would probably beat Gray. Slade and Hill for Ford and Farrell would have made a huge difference imo... The 2013 unit certainly had a better back-line. Mindyou, Andy Short ahead of Yarde and Joseph, I mean, really...

One thing I will say - sides approaching the 2011 watermark are clearly now the norm rather than the exception. That fact makes me hugely excited about England's future.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Oh yeah, Sinckler was - didn't play through injury though.

LCD would have strolled into that team with ease - I know Haywood was good but LCD was on a different plain of existence last year.
Awoyemi wouldn't have got in last year, but it would have been a flip of a coin with him and Mako based on this year imo.

Clifford certainly would have been in.

I've just remembered Stooke was in last year's team too, but was also injured in the semi final.
I'd have him over Matthews.

On Moriarty: He's my sort of blindside - the sort of player I like to think I was cool - his main objective is simply to smash ****ing everything.
If he can impact senior games in the same way that he has done in the U20 then he has a good chance of being involved in the EPS.
I've said it before - but assuming that the above holds true, I think his partnership with Kvesic and Morgan could be wonderful.
He adds the brute physicality in defense and as a ball carrier that rounds that trio off very nicely.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think Lancaster wants a 6 like that, unfortunately - Haskell and Fearns aren't really getting a look in (at least, not when Wood's about).

LCD played loosehead at u20s, didn't he?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Ross is like a more mobile Fearns, and he happens to have been pivotal in two JWC winning teams.
I think his issue with Fearns is possibly a perception that he's not got a big enough work-rate... I don't think that'll be an issue with Ross.
What might work in his favour is being part of a club back row unit.

LCD was a LH (he actually played in the LV cup semi vs Bath at LH) but switched to hooker at the 6N prior to the JWC.

 

[Peat]

Disagreed on Haywood. He was phenomenal back then and, tbh, there is no young English player I've been more gutted about injuries to. Not to deny how good LCD has been mind. But I would stick with that unit. I don't think I've seen an England unit be so influential in tight and loose alike since 2002.

Ross Moriarty... tbh... in 2013, I didn't think he was physical enough, and would have played Sisi instead, who looked a marked league ahead in physicality when he came on. Didn't follow this year that much but, at 6'2" and less than 17 stone, he seems very small for the modern breed of blindside. I am skeptical. That said, he's got the right attitude, which is a good starting point.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Wierd that you've seen it that way, Sisi is enormous, but Moriarty is hands down more physical IMO.

Both this year and last year he was vital to England.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Fearns was runner up Junior world player, or whatever the awards called.
He had a huge workrate when at Sale, I thought he looked like he does at Bath too - injuries haven't been kind to him and I guess that's hampered him a bit.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It's conjecture, but that's the impression I get - obviously injuries haven't helped.

 

[big ginger 8]

Moriarty will take a lot to change my mind that his "physicality" isn't the cheapshot kind of bull****, after this.

[video=youtube_share;u2RNrSdvZBQ]http://youtu.be/u2RNrSdvZBQ[/video]

 

[ratsapprentice]

Oh yeah, because he obviously knew what he was doing there... it's the old "over the top, between the legs" tip tackle.

Reckless - not intentional IMO.

 

[big ginger 8]

Oh yeah, because he obviously knew what he was doing there... it's the old "over the top, between the legs" tip tackle.

Reckless - not intentional IMO.

Yes he knew completely what he was doing. He pulls up with his right, he's never not going to flip him.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You never gone into a tackle and it's ended up differently to how you thought, or you didn't really think about how it would end up?

 

[goodNumber10]

You never gone into a tackle and it's ended up differently to how you thought, or you didn't really think about how it would end up?

Sorry Rats. I do believe it was malicious.


Don't think he was going for quite as brutal flip as he got but he clearly had a rush of blood and was meaning to lift and dump him elsewhere.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yeah... aand what is illegal about that?

What I'm saying he didn't do is intentionally drop him on his head - contrary to seemingly popular belief, players don't generally think "I'm gonna tip tackle this **** onto his neck about 2 feet in front of the ref".

 

[goodNumber10]

Yeah... aand what is illegal about that?

What I'm saying he didn't do is intentionally drop him on his head - contrary to seemingly popular belief, players don't generally think "I'm gonna tip tackle this **** onto his neck about 2 feet in front of the ref".

no i agree with that (the head part), but i do think there was intent to do some damage, slam him or something it wasn't a lift and drive to clear it was a vertical lift there was only one way that boy was coming back to ground and it was always going to be painful.

very irresponsible, and a rush to the head i guess, but that doesn't make him a dirty player or a thug - he just stepped out of line.