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[2014 Mid-Year Tests] New Zealand vs England (1st Test)

and btw, the AB's better do something about that scrum. Thank God France took Hayman away from them :p coz that Franks guy ain't exactly scaring too many looseheads. Hopefully for all of NZ, there isn't a match in the next RWC that comes down to the scrum.

I like that no kiwi has addressed this at all. Your sentiment, All-Black fans ?
 
I remember back in '97 when we got spanked by the abs at Old Trafford and done a lap of honour at full time and cheered with the fans like it was a win. :s

I remember watching that game and thinking wtf why would you.

I like that no kiwi has addressed this at all. Your sentiment, All-Black fans ?

Woodcock and Franks are hit and miss, our scrum holds sometimes and other times it doesn't, we are not quite as consistent as some of the other teams but the fix is: teams we play are no longer allowed to knock the ball on.

Reality is we need to get rid of Woodcock and blood a young prop for the WC, 15 or so games to get them up to speed should be good.
 
I like that no kiwi has addressed this at all. Your sentiment, All-Black fans ?

Does something need addressing? ;)

The All Blacks haven't had a dominant scrum for a few years (since Brad Thorn left), but there wasn't a huge issue with our scrum on Saturday. We did get driven back in a couple of scrums, and got penalised once (or twice?). However we also dominated the England scrum on a number of occasions - I'm no scrummaging expert, but I would have called the scrummaging battle even...
 
I remember watching that game and thinking wtf why would you.

The "reasoning" behind it was because it was the first time England had played outside of London, and the game was a sellout - it was meant purely as a PR stunt to say thanks to the fans for turning up in force as it was such a rarity to get England playing outside of Twickers.

Lot's of teams do the walk to the fans after losing, normally at a final or something high profile to say thanks for the support, but It was latched onto by the NZ press at the time and completely misrepresented as a lap of honor.

To be fair, none of the players wanted to do it but were forced to - they were on the record as saying they didn't want to do it at the time.
 
Does something need addressing? ;)

The All Blacks haven't had a dominant scrum for a few years (since Brad Thorn left), but there wasn't a huge issue with our scrum on Saturday. We did get driven back in a couple of scrums, and got penalised once (or twice?). However we also dominated the England scrum on a number of occasions - I'm no scrummaging expert, but I would have called the scrummaging battle even...

that's the spirit. Not talking about something makes it disappear.
Seriously now, the AB did give away a couple of penalties in the scrum and had a difficult day overall, and this is against Wilson+Marler, Wilson's pretty good but not a destroyer either and Marler who's so-so. They got simply embarrassed against the Pumas, had a really hard time in France last November (with Forestier starting at LH...), again a hard time in Twickenham and then suffered in Dublin. Got smashed in fact early on.

I'm merely stating a problem for the AB's. If they win through it, good for them. But it may turn out to be an issue, and I'd have liked to hear what some AB fans thought about that.
 
that's the spirit. Not talking about something makes it disappear.
Seriously now, the AB did give away a couple of penalties in the scrum and had a difficult day overall, and this is against Wilson+Marler, Wilson's pretty good but not a destroyer either and Marler who's so-so. They got simply embarrassed against the Pumas, had a really hard time in France last November (with Forestier starting at LH...), again a hard time in Twickenham and then suffered in Dublin. Got smashed in fact early on.

I'm merely stating a problem for the AB's. If they win through it, good for them. But it may turn out to be an issue, and I'd have liked to hear what some AB fans thought about that.

Not at all. There were enough real areas for concern that match versus England - there is not point talking about an "issue" that doesn't really exist!

England put the pressure on maybe 2 or 3 of our scrum feeds that I can recall (see around 1:16:13 and 1:14:02 in the video below). We got poor ball back from these scrums (but did maintain the ball) - the rest of our scrums were pretty stable and we got very clean ball. Most of the action at scrum time was occurring on the odd occasion England feed the ball in. The two penalties we conceded at scrum-time were for illegally wheeling the scrum - this wasn't because we were under pressure, but rather because we were trying to (illegally in the refs opinion) put pressure on the England scrum! When we didn't get penalised for wheeling we actually put quite a lot of pressure on the England scrum - see 1:19:39 or 1:10:49 in the video. I wouldn't describe this as a 'difficult day' at all. We were certainly inconsistent, but I don't think we were beaten at scrum time.

I can't recall us getting embarrassed by the Pumas at scrum-time last season. Perhaps you are confusing us with Australia ;) In the match in Argentina the scrums were an absolute mess, with neither side seeming comfortable with the new engagement sequence. Argentina probably had the edge overall, but the AB's dominated a number of scrums that match too. In the Auckland match the scrums were far tidier and the AB's probably had a slight edge at scrum-time overall. France and England probably had the better of us at scrum-time at the end of last season, but again it was hardly as though our scrum was destroyed. We went back a few times in both matches, but again managed to put pressure on when the opposition fed the ball. I don't remember us having that many issues against Ireland (despite starting our 2nd string front row).

As I've mentioned before our scrum is not as dominant as it has been previously, but it is hardly a weakness. We are inconsistent throughout a match though, and often take a while to get into the match at scrum-time. The opposition can dominate at the start of the match before the AB's scrum starts to improve as the match goes on (and is often the dominant scrum in the 2nd half).

 
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Darwin

100% agree with what you have said here

New Zealand: Threw in to 12 scrums, won 11 lost 1 (91.7%)
England:.........Threw in to 6 scrums, won 6 won, lost 0 (100.0%)

This hardly represents a bashing at scrum time does it?

Watching the video, I thought the scrum battle was pretty even, we dominated some, they dominated some, some were even with neither team dominating

I do think the England scrum will be a bit stronger in Dunedin, so we'll have a improve a little, but I do not expect to see anything like this

 
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Not at all. There were enough real areas for concern that match versus England - there is not point talking about an "issue" that doesn't really exist!

England put the pressure on maybe 2 or 3 of our scrum feeds that I can recall (see around 1:16:13 and 1:14:02 in the video below). We got poor ball back from these scrums (but did maintain the ball) - the rest of our scrums were pretty stable and we got very clean ball. Most of the action at scrum time was occurring on the odd occasion England feed the ball in. The two penalties we conceded at scrum-time were for illegally wheeling the scrum - this wasn't because we were under pressure, but rather because we were trying to (illegally in the refs opinion) put pressure on the England scrum! When we didn't get penalised for wheeling we actually put quite a lot of pressure on the England scrum - see 1:19:39 or 1:10:49 in the video. I wouldn't describe this as a 'difficult day' at all. We were certainly inconsistent, but I don't think we were beaten at scrum time.

I can't recall us getting embarrassed by the Pumas at scrum-time last season. Perhaps you are confusing us with Australia ;) In the match in Argentina the scrums were an absolute mess, with neither side seeming comfortable with the new engagement sequence. Argentina probably had the edge overall, but the AB's dominated a number of scrums that match too. In the Auckland match the scrums were far tidier and the AB's probably had a slight edge at scrum-time overall. France and England probably had the better of us at scrum-time at the end of last season, but again it was hardly as though our scrum was destroyed. We went back a few times in both matches, but again managed to put pressure on when the opposition fed the ball. I don't remember us having that many issues against Ireland (despite starting our 2nd string front row).

As I've mentioned before our scrum is not as dominant as it has been previously, but it is hardly a weakness. We are inconsistent throughout a match though, and often take a while to get into the match at scrum-time. The opposition can dominate at the start of the match before the AB's scrum starts to improve as the match goes on (and is often the dominant scrum in the 2nd half).



That's all very well, but the problem with all of this is that in the last 20 minutes or so the AB 2nd choice prop was scrummaging against our 4th choices.

It's not just about winning penalties and sending opponent props to the sky though.

That scrum dominance people talk about held the AB's backrow in longer then they normally have to, that makes them inefficient in getting off and at our midfield backs - this puts additional pressure on two of the AB's weakest defenders - Nonu and Cruden - which in turn is why Smith has such a torrid time with Tuilagi when the AB's play against England, because there are stress points all the way through the inside defensive line and he is not allowed to push up as early as he wants to and also means the ball has transferred long before cruden and Nonu can drift.

And it also impacts on the AB wide game - the AB's made no bones about their intent in playing a shorter game through the midfield due to Read being missing, but it never materialised. Becaus eoff primary phase ball they didn't have go forward and the backrow couldn't get off early.

The Morgan run in the second half leading to the eastmond break is all from scrum dominance, for a number 8 to pick up on their own goal line and run 30 metres untouched....well if that isn't a concern..... and that is completely down to the fact the AB backrow is pushing hard just to stay in the scrum, Messam is packed at 6 there and doesn't even get off the side until morgan has gone around him - an 8 pick up in our own 22 is normally a panic mode action not an attacking weapon.

Watch at 1:10, after the scrum crabs and they are asked to re-set, there is a shot from the back and Yarde is saying to Morgan it's on - Morgan doesn't even push, he is loose and head free waiting for the ball before it's even in - 7 vs 8 and the England pack still moves the AB's where they want.

Were crabbing the scrum not the AB's.were looking to pull them infield and create space for Yards. Morgan picks draws the 6 sets Yarde free,...the NZ winger is deep for the kick. We do it twice and NZ fall for it twice and it works out better than we could have hoped.

So yeah, while it didn't have a points effect on you it did have a huge detrimental effect on the AB game, in both their ability to get off early and in how tiring it was for their tight 5 players.

This is also why the lineout is a concern for hansen et al this week, because they didn't pressure the English lineout - and were clearly panicked when they thought we might catch and set.

Lets be clear, it's not enough to win a game but it's a good starting point for being in with a shout and creates an area of pressure NZ don't normally experience and one of the mian reasons a second string England managed to live with the AB's.
 
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Darwin

100% agree with what you have said here

New Zealand: Threw in to 12 scrums, won 11 lost 1 (91.7%)
England:.........Threw in to 6 scrums, won 6 won, lost 0 (100.0%)

This hardly represents a bashing at scrum time does it?
You're right in that it wasn't a massacre at the scrum. However, those stats don't tell the most important story of the scrum. Typically, it's rare for a scrum to be turned over. It barely ever shows in those statistics whether a team has been bossed around in the scrum. In fact, it often shows the opposite, as a dominant team is more likely to keep the ball in the scrum for longer, meaning there's more chance to lose possession. The stats neglect to show the number of penalties won, or the quality of possession, off the back of a scrum. England won one or two penalties from the scrums IIRC, around the time that NZ started rotating with the bench and England hadn't. But I wouldn't say the dominance was around for long enough a time to really say England had the upper hand. There were a couple of scrums that definitely went the All Blacks' way before then.
 
I can't recall us getting embarrassed by the Pumas at scrum-time last season. Perhaps you are confusing us with Australia ;)

:lol: good stuff...perhaps I'm confusing NZ and Aus, OR, perhaps I've been paying attention at scrumtime and don't have selective memory. Unfortunately for you, this clip exists on YouTube:



But anyways I see your mind is already set to convincing yourself the AB don't have a problem there. For me, as a neutral, I'm entirely cold to the topic and have no emotional attachment to it. It's just another thing to talk about here...again, hopefully for the AB and their fans it doesn't come down to this in important games. Many games, esp the tighter ones, are literally won/lost from there.
And they're behind against quite a few nations in that deptmt. as I've listed it in my previous post.
 
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:lol: good stuff...perhaps I'm confusing NZ and Aus, OR, perhaps I've been paying attention at scrumtime and don't have selective memory. Unfortunately for you, this clip exists on YouTube:



But anyways I see your mind is already set to convincing yourself the AB don't have a problem there. For me, as a neutral, I'm entirely cold to the topic and have no emotional attachment to it. It's just another thing to talk about here...again, hopefully for the AB and their fans it doesn't come down to this in important games. Many games, esp the tighter ones, are literally won/lost from there.

And they're behind against quite a few nations in that deptmt. as I've listed it in my previous post.


Oh my. The ABs got dominated in a few scrums vs Argentina. The world has ended ;) If you actually watched the match (rather than a few youtube highlights) you would have known that the scrums were a mess throughout the match (as I have already stated), and there were 3-4 scrums where the ABs were just as dominant (no Argentine supporter put them on youtube though...).
Whether you have an emotional attachment to the match or not is not remotely relevent unless you actually watched the match (which you clearly did not). I would suggest you do that in future before dismissing the opinions of those who actually watched the match and know what they are talking about....
 
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I watched the match, but it's pointless to continue this conversation as you must be right.
 
I watched the match, but it's pointless to continue this conversation as you must be right.

If you did watch the match you should probably get tested for early onset alzheimers, as your recollection of the match differs wildly from reality! You are correct though: there is no point in me wasting my time debating with you.....
 
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If you did watch the match you should probably get tested for early onset alzheimers, as your recollection of the match differs wildly from reality! You are correct though: there is no point in me wasting my time debating with you.....

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Darwin

100% agree with what you have said here

New Zealand: Threw in to 12 scrums, won 11 lost 1 (91.7%)
England:.........Threw in to 6 scrums, won 6 won, lost 0 (100.0%)

This hardly represents a bashing at scrum time does it?

Watching the video, I thought the scrum battle was pretty even, we dominated some, they dominated some, some were even with neither team dominating

I do think the England scrum will be a bit stronger in Dunedin, so we'll have a improve a little, but I do not expect to see anything like this



Also a good thing imo to take note of is that at no point during this scrum bashing that went on are wales in front where it matters .......

On the score board . NZ don't keep the ball in the scrum for long so with the new rules are reasonably unlikely to lose the ball from it
 
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It looks like all the points Wales did score in that were from the scrum (3 penalties). Still the ABs scrum really didn't look that bad against England. Now when we have our first choice front row in then it might be a different matter. Unfortunately no Corbs so that will have to wait. None of our other LHs really match him.
 
It looks like all the points Wales did score in that were from the scrum (3 penalties). Still the ABs scrum really didn't look that bad against England. Now when we have our first choice front row in then it might be a different matter. Unfortunately no Corbs so that will have to wait. None of our other LHs really match him.

We haven't got our first choice . Still our 2nd choice LH and TH and 3rd choice hooker (for now) Marler has come on leaps and bounds in the last 18 months though . He really isn't that far behind Corbs imo
 
I think people are really misunderstanding what a dominant scrum means - the points can only come from penalties if they are in a kickable area and that is dependent on the location of the scrum.

Scrum dominance isn't always about earning penalties, it can be if you have a negative mindset, but if you are intent on scoring 5 points playing with ball in hand then it is just a great attacking weapon.
 

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