[2015 RWC] Warm Up Match: England vs France (15/08/2015)

[Ragey Erasmus]

And who wins the most? Your point is invalidated in that the USA wins the most in the Olympics(because the USA has the most resources, money and talent). BTW, Olympic events are generally way down the list in the USA. The events that have professional sports feature domination by the USA. To counter your point I will submit USA 7s. Rugby is only able to draw table scraps in terms of the talent pool in the US. Now that 7s is an Olympic sport the 7s team is receiving resources from the US Olympic developmental program and new visibility. USA 7s has now been able to draw some football rejects and is beginning to outclass the rest of the world in athleticism. USA will likely be a favorite in the Olympics next summer. All because the USA has more speed and strength than any country in the world without debate. Watch some NFL training camp video and you will see the greatest athletes in the world.

Actually no, the USA doesn't dominate, that's the point I was making. Look at the huge number of team sports in the world, how many does the USA dominate? The only team sports the USA dominates in are the team sports that only the USA plays to any degree (NFL). Rugby is very much a background sport in England whilst in the top competitors, it is much bigger. This meant that whilst England had a larger base, there was a poor system to utilise and scout for talent, develop it so we had a consistantly good senior team. It is only in the last 10 years or so that this got put in place properly and we are just beginning to see the effects with England consistantly leading the world at U20's level and now we are waiting for this to filter through to the seniors.

You say the NFL are the best athletes in the world, put NFL players on a rugby pitch and they wouldn't last 1 half. Also there is no comparison, no other country plays NFL as a major sport so you are comparing the talent in 1 sport that dominates in 1 nation to what...? That's like us saying we have best Morris dancers in the world.

 

[ZeroTwo]

Actually no, the USA doesn't dominate, that's the point I was making. Look at the huge number of team sports in the world, how many does the USA dominate? The only team sports the USA dominates in are the team sports that only the USA plays to any degree (NFL). Rugby is very much a background sport in England whilst in the top competitors, it is much bigger. This meant that whilst England had a larger base, there was a poor system to utilise and scout for talent, develop it so we had a consistantly good senior team. It is only in the last 10 years or so that this got put in place properly and we are just beginning to see the effects with England consistantly leading the world at U20's level and now we are waiting for this to filter through to the seniors.

You say the NFL are the best athletes in the world, put NFL players on a rugby pitch and they wouldn't last 1 half. Also there is no comparison, no other country plays NFL as a major sport so you are comparing the talent in 1 sport that dominates in 1 nation to what...? That's like us saying we have best Morris dancers in the world.

Damn. Straight.

 

[ShonH]

Actually no, the USA doesn't dominate, that's the point I was making. Look at the huge number of team sports in the world, how many does the USA dominate? The only team sports the USA dominates in are the team sports that only the USA plays to any degree (NFL). Rugby is very much a background sport in England whilst in the top competitors, it is much bigger. This meant that whilst England had a larger base, there was a poor system to utilise and scout for talent, develop it so we had a consistantly good senior team. It is only in the last 10 years or so that this got put in place properly and we are just beginning to see the effects with England consistantly leading the world at U20's level and now we are waiting for this to filter through to the seniors.

You say the NFL are the best athletes in the world, put NFL players on a rugby pitch and they wouldn't last 1 half. Also there is no comparison, no other country plays NFL as a major sport so you are comparing the talent in 1 sport that dominates in 1 nation to what...? That's like us saying we have best Morris dancers in the world.

USA does not dominate the Olympics? Seriously? see the link below:

http://www.olympic.it/english/medal

I did not say anything about the rest of the world playing football. I said the NFL has the best athletes.

No offense, that is why they have the same skill base but get paid $14-$20 million/year. If an NFL team offered any rugby player 15 million/year they would jump today. The lowest paid player in the NFL makes $435K/yr. More $$ equals more talent. There are 5-10 players on every NFL team that weigh 250-285 lbs and run 4.6 40s. Go watch a video of the NFL rookie combine.

I am a rugby fan but that does not mean I will willfully ignorant regarding the NFL. That fact does not detract from the place of rugby.

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This is a link to the NFL combine. The combine is held every year for potential rookies to help them get drafted. The link below shows the attributes of players trying to enter the NFL. Look at the results and tell me what you think.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/top-performers#year=2015&workout=FORTY_YARD_DASH&position=LB

 

[nickdnz]

USA does not dominate the Olympics? Seriously? see the link below:

http://www.olympic.it/english/medal

I did not say anything about the rest of the world playing football. I said the NFL has the best athletes.

No offense, that is why they have the same skill base but get paid $14-$20 million/year. If an NFL team offered any rugby player 15 million/year they would jump today. The lowest paid player in the NFL makes $435K/yr. More $$ equals more talent. There are 5-10 players on every NFL team that weigh 250-285 lbs and run 4.6 40s. Go watch a video of the NFL rookie combine.

I am a rugby fan but that does not mean I will willfully ignorant regarding the NFL. That fact does not detract from the place of rugby.

Well no.

They get paid that amount of money because, like NBA and MLB - they are playing in a market of 320 millions people, with the highest GDP in the world, in the most competitive media market.

A rugby player could run the 100m in 6 seconds, lift 5 tonnes and breath fire - his pay would still only reflect what the market feels he is worth based on what he can generate in interest.

Generally the USA do not dominate in global team sports. The reason for this is that by in large the USA have a large enough population base to be able to simply market inwards and retain a controlling stake in the sport.

Also good luck with USA being favourite for the 7's medal in the summer. It's that kind of optimism I hope isn't crushed beyond repair come Rio.

 

[ShonH]

There are two sports that require speed, size, and strength for physical contact. American Football and Rugby (perhaps you could include Australian Rules). The sport that pays the most $$ for these skills will get the better skills. Jarryd Hayne is trying to make the San Francisco 49ers right now because he understands this.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/jar...-switch-from-nrl/story-e6frf3ou-1227091150804

I did not say that rugby players do not have talent or that none of them could play in the NFL. The physical attributes of NFL players is without equal. Go look at the link in the previous post and you cannot deny it.


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I did not mean to turn a rugby thread into an NFL thread. I want to talk rugby and not detract from it.

 

[nickdnz]

There are two sports that require speed, size, and strength for physical contact. American Football and Rugby (perhaps you could include Australian Rules). The sport that pays the most $$ for these skills will get the better skills. Jarryd Hayne is trying to make the San Francisco 49ers right now because he understands this.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/jar...-switch-from-nrl/story-e6frf3ou-1227091150804

I did not say that rugby players do not have talent or that none of them could play in the NFL. The physical attributes of NFL players is without equal. Go look at the link in the previous post and you cannot deny it. They world is round regardless of how bad you want it to be flat.

Jarrad Hayne wanted to go to NFL because he liked the sport - and as I have already said there is the potential for more money there. Again he is competing with what a domestic market of 20 millions can pay him compared to 300 million. It's not typical - you would likely find just as many NFL converts to rugby as vise versa - based on where there looked like there was opportunities.

The NFL athletes being without equal is simply incorrect. What is their aerobic fitness like? Which 300lbs linebacker can run a marathon? They train for the specifics of their sport just like any athlete, you can't really quantify who is the best athlete.

Would Lionel Messi or Christiano Ronaldo be good in the NFL? No, they would get killed. Are they great athletes - of course, they excel at their skill-set. They also get paid more than most athletes in the world - based on being some of the best talent in a very lucrative market.

 

[RoosTah]

There are two sports that require speed, size, and strength for physical contact. American Football and Rugby (perhaps you could include Australian Rules). The sport that pays the most $$ for these skills will get the better skills. Jarryd Hayne is trying to make the San Francisco 49ers right now because he understands this.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/jar...-switch-from-nrl/story-e6frf3ou-1227091150804

I did not say that rugby players do not have talent or that none of them could play in the NFL. The physical attributes of NFL players is without equal. Go look at the link in the previous post and you cannot deny it.

What's the buzz like regarding Hayne in the US? I'd read that he started out at $50 in the betting odds to make the 49er's 53 man roster, but is down to $1.40. Must be doing ok so far.

That said, I reckon Rugby League players probably have a more generally suitable skill set and physicality for the NFL than a lot of Union guys. League is just built around the collisions and heavy hits, so in a way I reckon the NFL would suit a lot of them.

 

[TobesHodges]

The 49ers love a code switcher, they got that Lawrence Okoye a few seasons back, if he had stayed in rugby union he would absolutely be he England winger, 6ft6, 21st5 and could do 100m in 11.30..

 

[Irish boy]

He played on the opposite wing to Yarde and outside Daly in schools rugby. And was in the Irish Academy however then he went off to do Discus

 

[Peat]

The 49ers love a code switcher, they got that Lawrence Okoye a few seasons back, if he had stayed in rugby union he would absolutely be he England winger, 6ft6, 21st5 and could do 100m in 11.30..

And by most accounts I ever read, not very good at rugby.

 

[goodNumber10]

For the sake of discussion lets define "elite teams". For me elite teams would include Guiness Pro 12, Aviva Premiership, Super Rugby, etc. There is a case that not all participants in this league are "elite" but they all compete on the highest level excluding international play. The numbers are clearly evident in the number of Premiership teams in England vs. the number of Pro 12 teams in Wales. In addition, few would argue with a straight face that as a whole the Pro 12 is on par with the Premiership. The fan draw for Premiership is exponentially higher than that of Pro 12 which is another indicator of resources. Regardless of whether or not soccer may be higher on the totem pole, rugby has the greatest draw in England with the most interest of any country in the world.

Even NZ can barely fill a stadium for the championship of Super Rugby. In terms of sheer potential England leads the world. Obviously this has not always been the case as exampled in Wales beating England in 6 Nations this year. This is an indictment upon the talent development as opposed to the talent pool.

The first thing i did was define elite level, which in Europe is mainly regarded as European rugby - it has an equivalent in the SH and it is the top level you can play before making the transition to International rugby - sure not everyone plays it but that's the exact point. You talk about the Welsh teams, yet there was as many club teams as England, Wales took a decision to reduce their footprint by consolidating into 4 teams, as did Ireland and as did Scotland and Italy - the pro 12 while competitive is exactly why we can't take domestic rugby as the top level anymore.

To have good athletes you have to produce good athletes, and to do that you have to produce good coaches and systems at youth level. You reference NFL against rugby but how much development of players is done at professional level? Very little, that's what college football is for and their Talent identification systems are professional systems second to none.

Union in England hasn't had the resources at that stage, don't forget the clubs are not the RFU, so the end result is lots of people playing but no true player development and your last point is exactly what i'm saying if you don't produce the players then your resources are a red herring if you go purely on Numbers playing the game.

The game hasn't been professional for 20 years yet, we're only just getting the effects of proper development pathways - come back in 10 years and your argument might be valid.

 

[ncurd]

Yey we get to talk a bunch of nonsense about the NFL when we're supposed to talk about the England game!

First up great to see the lack arrogance from the English on the suggestion we should be dominating world rugby. The way some people go on it sounds like we all secretly think that.

Secondly here's proof that GDP and population don't lead to dominance at sport http://www.theguardian.com/sport/datablog/2012/jul/30/olympics-2012-alternative-medal-table whilst it proves it lead to a perceived level of dominance it show those countries are actually 'underperforming'. The other element it goes to show is laws of diminishing returns for having the most population/money.

Apply this to the RU model and you know despite all this a culture firmly behind rugby as no. 1 is going to do way better than one where it's distant 2nd at best (5th by some accounts).

Incidentally someone mention rugby in schools it needs to be played at secondary level before primary. It's one of the great casualties of mixed gender lessons (great for equality not so great at helping sport flourish) due to the physicality.

 

[TobesHodges]

And by most accounts I ever read, not very good at rugby.

Poor journalism me thinks, I went to see the daily mail cup final in 2008 and he was unreal, he was also in the wasps and Irish academy's, he was very good..

 

[Peat]

Poor journalism me thinks, I went to see the daily mail cup final in 2008 and he was unreal, he was also in the wasps and Irish academy's, he was very good..

None of it was from journos. All gleaned from various message boards. Never received a contract offer from LI - only one from Esher - and never played England age grade either.


Anyway, to touch back in with the current thrust of the debate...

England quite clearly have the potential to be the best country in the world at rugby union; that's what I want us to be; but we're not and some of the barriers to us achieving that potential look pretty weighty.

Also, I'm pretty relaxed about the forwards' performance yesterday except in two respects. I am relaxed because I've seen all of those players do better. End of the day, that was a pre-season friendly - you rarely see players pour heart and soul into them and there's always a disjointed air to them. If we ask for those players' best, then I am confident that their best is very good and sufficient to what we require.

However, the problems we had at the breakdown and in the lineout echo problems we've been having for a while, and I'm a touch concerned about the coaching.

 

[ratsapprentice]

None of it was from journos. All gleaned from various message boards. Never received a contract offer from LI - only one from Esher - and never played England age grade either.

At his age he would have had a fairly good idea of the level he was potentially going to reach in rugby... I find it hard to believe that he thought "I could be a dominant international winger and make a **** load of chashish... I'd prefer to throw a discus though".

 

[goodNumber10]

Tom May on Burgess & Slade: http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/13453723/tom-column-sam-burgess-henry-slade-england-debut

some interesting observations.

 

[HowieLO6]

At his age he would have had a fairly good idea of the level he was potentially going to reach in rugby... I find it hard to believe that he thought "I could be a dominant international winger and make a **** load of chashish... I'd prefer to throw a discus though".

Sort of the case. I followed that dominant team, as an old-boy supporter. He was handy and might have found himself playing in the centres had he been at other decent rugby schools, but the combination of Daly and Yarde did rather put paid to that. He was also not far off his current size when he was 18. Kids who are that big always do well. If he'd put his mind to it, could've made a half-decent pro, but spent a lot of time in the classroom.

Either way, I'd have loved to have seen Daly given a crack. Alas.

 

[kesh]

I did not say anything about the rest of the world playing football. I said the NFL has the best athletes.

How many phases would these guys last without a time-out? Comparisons with rugby can get pretty woeful. Had a debate about which was tougher NFL v Rugby which went on for about 25+ pages and neither side would budge. In spite of new head injury safety laws there, injury stats etc. Great sport an all but the time-outs are too damn high.

 

[HowieLO6]

Having played both sports, its horses for courses. Those big boys need ballast - 3am alarms to wake and much down gallons of icecream, protein shakes, etc, is not abnormal by any means - in order to fight it out in the trenches. But don't let their soft outershell fool you. Their squats, deadlifts and bench-presses would put even the rattiest of gym rats (looking at Haskell here) to shame, with some vertical jumps (300lbs and able to dunk..?) that defy their doughiness and lack of stamina.

They're that size because they have to be. 4-6 seconds of absolute power followed by a break. True, they couldn't handle rugby, but rugby players would struggle to match the explosiveness of football players.

Hayden Smith actually stuck with the Jets for a year, which, considering the hundreds of TEs who've played through the college ranks, is no mean feat. Shows its doable for rugby players, although its hard to say why a pro football player would have a crack the other way.

But back to the England game; good to see that the praise for SB is tempered (mostly), with the creative nous of Slade given the deserved praise. That said, Dawson does seem to have it in for Sam.

 

[goodNumber10]

well if we're really going down this route: