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[2016 Rugby Championship] New Zealand v Argentina (10/09/2016)

The next step for the Pumas now, is to keep the same intensity of game for 80 minutes and not only 55 or 60, especially when you play vs the best of the world. I think they can handle this in 2 or 3 years more of experience with the SR and TRC.
I am very concerned about the great physical effort, of the players in this game and the injured. This could cost us the match in Australia ...
 
There is a pattern here. The thing is, this is the exact same problem we had at the world cup against new Zealand and the exact same problem the jaguares had in super rugby (home games against the stormers and the chiefs come to mind). Not sure how easy it is to correct it at this point.
Good thing is that, at our best we can give any team a run for it s money but we consistently lack intensity during the last 20-30 minutes. It s easy to blame the bench but i believe there is more to it. I do not see the same problem, at least not in such an order of magnitude, in other teams. I m inclined to believe it is more psychological than physical.
 
There is a pattern here. The thing is, this is the exact same problem we had at the world cup against new Zealand and the exact same problem the jaguares had in super rugby (home games against the stormers and the chiefs come to mind). Not sure how easy it is to correct it at this point.
Good thing is that, at our best we can give any team a run for it s money but we consistently lack intensity during the last 20-30 minutes. It s easy to blame the bench but i believe there is more to it. I do not see the same problem, at least not in such an order of magnitude, in other teams. I m inclined to believe it is more psychological than physical.

agreed!
also is.making the wrong desitions!. tuculet not kicking the ball away (all blacks first try). two bad and useless high balls (two more ab trys).
and then there's the mistakes like nahuel loosing the ball 3 mts from the in goal.
finally not been able to finish some good moments at the bigining of the second half. of course when you intend again and again and fail it affects you mentally.
if you add all this things you come up with a different game. not saying we would win but yes much closer. also the great bench the all blacks have. smith not so good today? he's replacement brings the a game! cane injured? kino steps in in great shape.. and goes on.
 
Hats off to the `Pumas, playing away from home, in NZ, against a team that is trying to transcend the efforts of the last squad, the Pumas came out all guns blazing and didn't give up or lay down. They exhibited marvellous skills with the ball in hand throughout the team and but for a fitness element perhaps, and a difference in impact from the respective benches, they gave a memorable performance not reflected in the scoreline.
 
In my opinion it is too simplistic to blame fitness. I hope Argentina accentuate the positive and learn from the negative in this one. It's an age old problem with Argie teams. I remember them leading France by 18 or 20 points at Velez Sarsfield as far back as 2002 and I just knew in my bones that they could throw it all away. On that occasion they almost did and just won by 1 point but the problem persists and remains their most concerning challenge. Still though, they are in better shape than most teams.
 
The next step for the Pumas now, is to keep the same intensity of game for 80 minutes and not only 55 or 60, especially when you play vs the best of the world. I think they can handle this in 2 or 3 years more of experience with the SR and TRC.
I am very concerned about the great physical effort, of the players in this game and the injured. This could cost us the match in Australia ...

They should have won the first match v South Africa as well but the lack of intensity in the last 15 minutes cost them, and it almost cost them in Salta last week.

In my opinion it is too simplistic to blame fitness. I hope Argentina accentuate the positive and learn from the negative in this one. It's an age old problem with Argie teams. I remember them leading France by 18 or 20 points at Velez Sarsfield as far back as 2002 and I just knew in my bones that they could throw it all away. On that occasion they almost did and just won by 1 point but the problem persists and remains their most concerning challenge. Still though, they are in better shape than most teams.

Simplistic yes, but fitness and conditioning is a large part of the problem. That intense period at the beginning of the second half culminating in that great run by Moroni really took its toll. By the 50 minute mark, when Sanchez landed the penalty goal to close it to 22-24, Los Pumas forwards were really sucking in the big ones, and continued to do so for some time; that is when the All Blacks struck with tries in about the 53rd and 55th minutes. However, mental conditioning is also important and when they conceded those two quick tries. Los Pumas heads went down and they lost heart. When they tried to dig deep, there was nothing left either physically or mentally, and the All Blacks went on to score three of their eight tries in the last 15 minutes of the match.
 
I haven't seen the game, but it sounds like, yet again, when the ABs put their foot down they scored a shed load of points and won the game in just a few minutes. They do this far too often to be coincidental. When they choose to up the pace no-one can live with them.

And no matter how well the Pumas may have played in patches, that's still a right royal hammering.
 
http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/al...a-set-for-first-test-start-against-Springboks

Cane out with a hamstring injury for 4-6 weeks. So Ardie to start against the Boks. Interesting to see what Hansen said about him and being a bit too lightweight ATM to last the full 80. Cane has gone from 102kgs to 109kgs (since 2012?) and Ardie is only 102kgs ATM from 95Kgs (Since he started Playing Super Rugby). So he is being managed to get to 105kgs so his explosive power can last longer at test level, which I think explains why Cane will be starter when he returns from injury. So Ardie should at least get 60 mins next week and Todd to take over from the bench.

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I haven't seen the game, but it sounds like, yet again, when the ABs put their foot down they scored a shed load of points and won the game in just a few minutes. They do this far too often to be coincidental. When they choose to up the pace no-one can live with them.

And no matter how well the Pumas may have played in patches, that's still a right royal hammering.

It was indeed. Pumas really challenged the ABs up to the 50 minutes mark, then a combo of ABs stepping it up, their bench being much stronger than the Pumas and the Pumas running out of gas. Boks are in for a similar hiding next week.
 
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I haven't seen the game, but it sounds like, yet again, when the ABs put their foot down they scored a shed load of points and won the game in just a few minutes. They do this far too often to be coincidental. When they choose to up the pace no-one can live with them..

I don't think it was quite as simple as that.

In the first half it soon became clear that the Pumas had worked out All Blacks defensive game plan, and they countered it very effectively. The All Black forwards were standing off the rucks and breakdowns and spreading out along the offside line, and the result was that, when the Pumas took the ball into contact, there were no All Blacks contesting, the Pumas correctly identified the centre of the breakdown as a weak spot so when they cleared the ball there was no defense close in on the fringes. They were able to pick and drive through the middle (the movement that led to their opening try started when a Pumas player hurdled his own player at the breakdown!). This resulted in a lot of pressure on Aaron Smith to do a lot of the tackling it. When the All Blacks took the ball into contact there was little cover, so we gave up a lot of turnovers. It was noticeable that there were a number if backs Crotty, Fekitoa & Ben Smith) getting in and doing the forwards jobs at the breakdown. It was so obvious that even the commentators remarked on it.

Even after they no doubt got a bollocking from Shag at half time, the plan didn't seem to change straight away, but then Sam Cane started really getting himself involved in the breakdowns Then he got injured and Ardie carried on. Shag pulled Aaron Smith (who wasn't having a good game) about 10 minutes earlier than he usually does, and his replacement, Perenara, began running the breakdown and getting more of his forwards involved. This was key in turning the match... suddenly the All Blacks were getting quick ball without the Pumas spoiling it and turning it over. With the commitment of extra players, the Pumas forwards were drawn in, so gaps began to appear in their defence, and our backs, particularly Barrett, exploited those gaps ruthlessly.
 
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If Argentna can win one more game in the RC then I think they'd consider it a complete vindication of their selection rules. That one win alone in the last game might be enough. I don't think it'll be changing before the next RWC but maybe some Europe based players could consider the switch to SR for 2018 to try and recapture their place in the national team.

Anyway, really looking forward to this despite NZ being heavy favourites. Both are so entertaining with ball in hand that it's just a great fixture for a neutral.

You may be right, a lot of people (UAR included) may think this way. However, I don't think that is the proper analysis.
We won against SA due to the strenght of our first XV (and a bit of good luck), and it seems that we may be able to take one more win. But this doesn't change the fact that we have a very small pool of players, and we should be looking a way to fix this.

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Congrats ABs!
 
I was watching this game in NZ, at a large dinner event where they left the game running on a big screen. Those present really appreciated the manner in which Argentina played that first half. They were getting much support. Good on them, would have been good if it could have been close for longer, but that will come as they build depth. It looked like the fresh legs of the All V]Balck subs made a big difference.
 
Just watched the game again and I have to say that Sanchez was dynamite in the first 60 minutes, so much inventive running and great hands. Cordero also showed great desire and pace and footwork looking to link up to bring more runners onto the ball. Also impressed by Creevy and the young Isa. Profound work rate and heart crusted with passion.
For 60 minutes the Pumas were right in the hunt.
Then the last quarter came, Perenara on for Smith made a big difference, I have to say after watching a second time that the defensive work of Kaino was amazing and also my respect for Malakai Fekitoa's work in the full 80 minutes was exemplary. His strength and durability in the tackle situation, his body position at the breakdown taking 2 tacklers etc and his straight running, he was looking dynamic. Julian Savea back to his best, hungry and destructive. Ardie Savea showed a great work rate after powerful work in the loose from Cane.Crotty always supporting got his just desserts with a brace.
Barrett - sublime, Ben Smith just so artful.
What a killer team.
What a great game.
 
really entertaining game to watch, the attack from Argentina was sensational. The angles and depth they used was awesome to watch, really creative and caused the AB's some serious issues... They obviously targeted Aaron Smith around the ruck heavily and for the most part it worked. Really smart use of their wingers around the rucks and down the center of the field. Also good to see a game played in good spirit after that last disaster of a handbag swinging contest.

All Blacks obviously need to look at that and better plan for it happening again in future. They did get better protection around the Ruck and Perenara came on who is more physical than Smith. I actually think Perenara has come a long way, interesting hearing Gatland saying he things Aaron Smith is the best player in the world and that the AB's would really miss him if he wasn't available. I honestly don't believe that. I think Perenara is very close to smith, in super rugby Perenara ended the season the best 9 on form in super rugby. right now He's up there with Smith IMO.

Was kinda funny to have Gatland say that before the game then see Smith get pulled early and the replacement player have a big game and help turn the game around... kinda made him look a bit stupid. But part of it is mind games as well.

despite Argentina being so strong for 50min I was never really worried about the result. Seeing their forward pack lying around and hands on knees gasping for air at the 20-25min park it was obvious they were playing a game well beyond anything they could sustain for 80min. The big score turnaround wasn't quite that simple, it was a combination of the Argentinians tiring and the AB's adjusting their game. Maybe even more the latter.

its true Coles and Aaron Smith didn't have their best games and were maybe uncharacteristically poor but generally the Whole team played well.

Kaino Was amazing, infact if Gatland instead said Kaino was the best player in the world and the AB's would miss him, that would make more sense. We have a number of world Class blindsides as backup but holy cow, Kaino's physical game was on another level. best All Black #6 ever no doubt. All countries? Probably.

Same could be said for Retalick.

Cane was big again, we have Savea to over him but I think we will miss Cane. Hes been huge this season and constantly improving in the face public opinion which has been against him. bad timing for the injury though just when people are starting to see he well and truly deserves his starting place.

Barrett, again outside the goal kicking which still needs work. He was superb.

Crotty was really good, in particular on defense. He and Fekitoa were great on defense. and really it was good defense that prevented Argentina from getting ahead on the scoreboard when they were on the rampage.

Fekitoa has issues with decision making, pushes passes when they are not on, holds the ball when the pass is on. Loses the ball when we really need to maintain possession. Doesn't kick much but when he does kick the kick isn't on. The finish of the game was a perfect example. Sure it didn't matter we had the game won, but we got momentum around around that 80min mark and started gaining ground and he got some space down that side and kicked the ball when the kick simply wasn't on. It was like he used the kick as an option rather than looking to see if the kick was on and them making a decision to kick. Unless the result is close and needs to be sealed the AB's should always look to try and finish the game with points. Its good practice for games they need to come from behind or win with the final play.

I'm trying to warm to Fekitoa. Hes physically powerful and he obviously works really hard and gives it everything. Plays with Focus and intensity, he made some great tackles and showed good urgency when needed on defense. But hes really just not making many good decisions when that is so critical to playing at 13. Compare that to Conrad Smith who wasn't fast, big or powerful but what he did do was make good decisions - his game revolved around it. Decisions and technique - that was Conrad Smith in a nutshell. He hardly ever kicked, but when he did it was almost always the right decision. If the AB's are going to continue to select Fekitoa I think he needs additional coaching on his decision making. Drill all his skills till he can do them without thinking, so he can then focus his attention on reading the game and playing whats ahead of him.

While hes a big guy and powerful hes not demolishing defenses with his ball running. He needs better decision making to keep playing this level.

Savea had his best game in a long time. I'm still not sold, I still think we have better wingers who would do better given the chance. The way hes been playing he has 1-2 tests which are this quality a year. One swallow doesn't make a summer. Reminds me of when Dagg was in hi form slump from like 2012 - 2015. If he played 10 tests a year he was still really good in 1-2 of them and the rest he was average. Where in contrast Ben Smith would be really good in 8-9 tests and average in 1-2...

Ben Smith was Ben Smith. His 2nd try was the highlight of the test for me. What I liked about his game was when the AB's were on the back foot he did his absolute best to get involved and get momentum back.

Dagg, I wish he would kick goals full time like he did for the highlanders when he was at his best. He's an 80% kicker with good range.

Goal kicking may be the difference if we get into a dogfight against England or SA while Barrett is struggling to get his goal kicking right. ~60% goal kicking is enough for the AB's to win the rugby championship but we want 75%+ for lions tours and world cups. IMO Dagg has the ability and technique but he lacks big game confidence with his goal kicking. Barrett, big stage doesn't seem to bother him its just his technique hes struggling with, which seemed to be the result of some leg/ankle injuries hes had to deal with.
 
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Savea had his best game in a long time. I'm still not sold, I still think we have better wingers who would do better given the chance. The way hes been playing he has 1-2 tests which are this quality a year. One swallow doesn't make a summer. Reminds me of when Dagg was in hi form slump from like 2012 - 2015. If he played 10 tests a year he was still really good in 1-2 of them and the rest he was average. Where in contrast Ben Smith would be really good in 8-9 tests and average in 1-2....

Yeah, he's really been coasting to 42 tries in 46 tests. Basically any winger you'd imagine to be hitting those numbers.
 
Yeah, he's really been coasting to 42 tries in 46 tests. Basically any winger you'd imagine to be hitting those numbers.

ha! yeah silly me, of course thats all wingers need to do. Nothing else matters ...

Of course Savea has that record because back in 2012-2014 he was nigh unstoppable, 2015 he had one good test yes it just happened to be an absolutely mind blowing game in a test we dominated every aspect from start to finish but really we have seen very little from him since including pretty much going missing against SA and AU in the WC finals after that massive french game.

seriously savea or any winger worth his salt will score 1 on 1 with a bit of space close to the line. That basically accounts for his last 3 tries.

Heck Ryan Crotty has just run in 3 tries and all he had to do was catch the ball and run into a couple of gaps and put the ball down. hes playing well for sure but all the tries being scored are more a function of the work Aaron Smith, Barrett, Ben Smith and company are doing.

It isn't the tries that indicated to me he was in better form this game. He looked better under the high ball and did a couple of trademark powerful runs that we really have not seen from him since the WC french game and hadn't seen before that for even longer. he had an easier day on defense as Argentina targeted the middle of the field.

Good game from Savea yes for sure.

OMG SAVEA IS BACK! HIS FORM SLUMP IS OVER!... no.
 
Heck Ryan Crotty has just run in 3 tries and all he had to do was catch the ball and run into a couple of gaps and put the ball down. .


Crotty's work rate is astonishing, and did you realise he actually calls a lot of the backline moves?

In particular, there were two moves in this game that he called when he saw the Argentine backline arrangement. The first one was where he ran the inward cut-back to draw the defence in, that resulted in the outside ball to Savea for his try under the sticks. The second one was where he called what appeared to be the same move. The Argentine defence were fooled into thinking it was the same move, but while they were watching for Save on the outside, they ignored Crotty taking the cut-back again, and he got the ball to score under the sticks.


I think you seriously underestimate how good Crotty has been and how important he is to the way that backline functions both on attack and defence. IMO, when SBW returns, he will likely replace Fekitoa, not Crotty.
 
Crotty's work rate is astonishing, and did you realise he actually calls a lot of the backline moves?

In particular, there were two moves in this game that he called when he saw the Argentine backline arrangement. The first one was where he ran the inward cut-back to draw the defence in, that resulted in the outside ball to Savea for his try under the sticks. The second one was where he called what appeared to be the same move. The Argentine defence were fooled into thinking it was the same move, but while they were watching for Save on the outside, they ignored Crotty taking the cut-back again, and he got the ball to score under the sticks.


I think you seriously underestimate how good Crotty has been and how important he is to the way that backline functions both on attack and defence. IMO, when SBW returns, he will likely replace Fekitoa, not Crotty.

Crotty is playing great, I was merely stating that the fact Crotty has just run in 3 tries recently isn't the reason why I say hes doing really well. That wont always happen. This was arguably his best test as AN AB even disregarding the two tries he ran in. Unlike Fekitoa he is making really good decisions. Shame Moala is injured, I think he would pair really well with Crotty.

SBW is a bit of a mystery now, who knows where he will be at when he returns next year. You would hope that the injury break would do him good. Rest up the test of his body too and allow him to come back at his best. I guess with his reputation and work ethic he's only ever going to come back in great condition, but you never know... Regardless With ALB, Crotty and Moala and Ngatai I think we have a great set of midfielders. Fekitoa needs work IMO as I stated above. But he can be a huge asset if he improves his decision making.
 
.... Regardless With ALB, Crotty and Moala and Ngatai I think we have a great set of midfielders. Fekitoa needs work IMO as I stated above. But he can be a huge asset if he improves his decision making.

Sadly, I think there is a possibility that we may not see Charlie Ngatai in a rugby jersey again.

As of September 8, he is still having symptoms for a concussion he suffered in the Chiefs v Highlanders game way back on May 7. When a person persistently suffers concussion symptoms for four months, their long term prognosis for recovery is not good. Such a person, even when fully recovered, carries a heightened risk of a serious concussion from a relatively mild bang on the head.

He must surely be seriously considering his future in the game.
 
You may be right, a lot of people (UAR included) may think this way. However, I don't think that is the proper analysis.
We won against SA due to the strenght of our first XV (and a bit of good luck), and it seems that we may be able to take one more win. But this doesn't change the fact that we have a very small pool of players, and we should be looking a way to fix this.

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Congrats ABs!

I think Argentina should look at the possibility of a 2nd SR team. I know there are a lot of hurdles and it won't be next year (or even before the next RWC) but surely that's the next step.

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Sadly, I think there is a possibility that we may not see Charlie Ngatai in a rugby jersey again.

As of September 8, he is still having symptoms for a concussion he suffered in the Chiefs v Highlanders game way back on May 7. When a person persistently suffers concussion symptoms for four months, their long term prognosis for recovery is not good. Such a person, even when fully recovered, carries a heightened risk of a serious concussion from a relatively mild bang on the head.

He must surely be seriously considering his future in the game.
That is a huge pity. He was the form player in SR nevermind center prior to injury. Would've loved to see him play test rugby and pray he still manages!
 

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