[2016 Rugby Championship] New Zealand v Argentina (10/09/2016)

[The Jones Boy]

Crotty is playing great, I was merely stating that the fact Crotty has just run in 3 tries recently isn't the reason why I say hes doing really well. That wont always happen. This was arguably his best test as AN AB even disregarding the two tries he ran in. Unlike Fekitoa he is making really good decisions. Shame Moala is injured, I think he would pair really well with Crotty.

SBW is a bit of a mystery now, who knows where he will be at when he returns next year. You would hope that the injury break would do him good. Rest up the test of his body too and allow him to come back at his best. I guess with his reputation and work ethic he's only ever going to come back in great condition, but you never know... Regardless With ALB, Crotty and Moala and Ngatai I think we have a great set of midfielders. Fekitoa needs work IMO as I stated above. But he can be a huge asset if he improves his decision making.

Hey Larksea, I'm glad you raised these issues because there is a plethora of discussion points here to be raised.
In an earlier post you mentioned that Conrad Smith always made the right decision and he rarely kicked etc.
It's true it did appear that way, and he did so much more for the AB's than just this, his defensive organisation of the backline, his leadership, his lightning fast vision to anticipate counter attack opportunities, his under rated pace, the list goes on, but Conrad was the best centre in the world when he left the AB's.
Conrad Smith came into a Wellington team where he spent what? 7 seasons ? learning his trade from the great Tana Umaga.
Conrad Smith had great talent but he wasn't born to be the greatest centre in the world, here's the tip, it takes years and years to become that great at the top level.
He was slow cooked and steeped in all the fine arts of becoming a midfield general by the best we had, Tana was a monster at centre and had he been injury free I think we would have most likely won the 2003 RWC in Aussie. He was that good. He had huge charisma among the team, a talisman and a pocket battleship.
He had a great rugby brain as well but the size and strength to be a monster on defence. Tana also had pace, he spent several seasons on the wing for the AB's before the transition to centre.
Continuity; there has been a long and little broken line of great AB centres going back as far as the legendary Bruce Robertson.
Conrad, Tana, Bunce, Craig Innes, Smokin' Joe Stanley, Bruce Robertson.
Some of these players were blessed with excellent second fives alongside them that became long term pairings.
Nonu was second 5 to Tana and Conrad, Walter little (2nd 5 to Innes and then Bunce), Innes was 2nd 5 to Stanley at Auckland, Warwick Taylor was 2nd 5 to Innes and Stanley, Aaron Mauger, the great Bill Osborne as understudy to Robertson and so forth, these guys gave great service to their respective centres.

Malakai Fekitoa is still a kid in the role of centre. He is only 24 years old, that is a baby in terms of being an international centre.
It takes 'years' to make a great international centre. Literally years. They are made, not born.
He has what 18 caps? 12 of those were 5-10 minute jobs at the end of a game filling in for a tired Smith or Nonu.
The guy deserves a chance.
He's got real talent and inside him he doesn't have a monster like Nonu crashing through tackles, breaking the line and offloading, he has another very young All Black who is showing a good skill set as well in Crotty (I'm not a fan of Crotty but the kid is turning me around with his performances)
Go back and watch the Pumas game again and watch for Fekiitoa. He hardly puts a foot wrong all game. His defence is massive, and as the NZ herald said when he first came into the side for an injured Conrad in 2014, "Fekitoa had a great game, he offers more on attack than the veteran centre" He demands that the opposition tackle him (in much the same way as Moala who I am a fan of...)
Now I wanted to watch Fekitoa because I was concerned that he wasn't pulling his weight in the midfield and I wanted to point the finger and grumble "Bloody useless mate..." etc. For me the jury is still out on him but I am more confident in his ability and that he IS learning after scrutinising his performance. The kid is a slow burner but I put it to you gentlemen that 2nd 5 and centre are positions that literally require years of development at International level.
Players like Jason Little, Jaques Fourie, Japie Mulder, Will Greenwood, Phillippe Sella and the list of all black centres above, they need time to mature and ferment their skill sets and I mean years, not games in a single season.
Look at Nonu, what a frustrating mongrel he was for many seasons. He showed huge talent coupled with an infuriating ability to get isolated from his team and turn the ball over, he didn't see when to give the pass because he was focussed on busting the line himself and squandered try scoring opportunities time after time. He wore eye liner for two years because he thought that was what the NFL blokes were doing to combat floodlight glare... I can remember being at Twickenham many seasons ago and after the game the AB's were descending the stairs after receiving their winners medal, and I was about ten people back gathered in there throng admiring our best export and when he came down I shouted"Fa'afine" because of the eye liner nonsense, the crowd around me laughed as his head swirled around like the predator with a murderous look on his face and i thought in that moment I was about to die LOL... but the management persisted with him and after many seasons playing initially alongside Tana and then Conrad, he clicked and became the great player we all knew and loved and still love and we are grateful for his truly awesome performances in the black jersey. If I had a gold nugget for overtime I shouted "You bloody idiot' at the tv for his errors in the first half of his international career i would be King Midas but he came good. The coaches were right.
I was wrong.
He did come good and then some.
A few players get a long run in the AB's midfield and get a lot of caps but never 'click' the way that the great players do.
Look at Bernie McCahill and Alama Iremia, both talented players but they are not icons of the black jersey because they never made it to the final development level.
Fekitoa has ten years ahead of him to forge his abilities and skill set with his powerful natural talent. Maybe he will make the jump, maybe not, but he deserves a chance to be in the mix because the kid has got talent and Larksea, you must MUST remember that these midfield positions take a long time to develop into... much longer than most other positions in the team and they are crucial.
Lastly, if you don't like this line of discourse, fair enough but please have a look at what Mr Hansen has been doing.
He is clearly, no mug.
He knows how many beans make 5 and if he's chosen Fekitoa to be in the mix, on form, Fekitoa's been there or thereabouts for the last 2 and a half seasons getting tidbits and living off scraps while he waited his turn at the trough.
If SBW comes back strong and fast then it's likely that Crotty,/Fekitoa/Moala will be put on the bench to make way for the tried and true very seasoned midfield powerhouse. Thats how it works if you are to have 'continuity'.
I reckon old Shag's onto something and maybe we're not. Looking at his results and the way he does things I'm inclined to sit back and watch the development of these kids ; Crotty, Fekitoa, Moala and whomever else Mr Hansen sees fit to grace the black jersey with...

On Julian Savea... I'm not convinced there is a better winger in NZ.
Yes his performances are up and down.
Outside of the mercurial Terry Wright every All Black winger I've ever seen going back to the legendary Brian Williams in the early 1970's has had ups and downs and spells where the ball didn't come to them or sit up for them. Grant Batty, Stu Wilson, Bernie Fraser (ebony and ivory) the great JK, Marc Ellis, the dual international Jeff Wilson, the mighty and blessed Jonah (RIP big man) , Twiggy-Mala (Vaiaga ;-) ) John Timu , Craig Green, Rokocoko, Dougie Howlett et al they all had moments when they weren't the best they could be and there was speculation they could be dropped.
Savea is still a kid at 26 just turned. He's a young fullah and he has a try scoring record only a person who is cerebrally disadvantaged would ignore.
If he is as at the level you are expressing then why is he constantly on Mr Hansens team sheet?
I was at the Millennium stadium when the Bus demolished three very large French players in the RWC quarter final and powered over the line and the headlines the next day were all drawing comparisons to the mighty and blessed Jonah (RIP big man)
Julian Savea is one of those kinds of players who can look bit lack lustre playing provincial or even Super Rugby but when he dons the blackness he lifts to another level and brings his A game. He is growing up in the spotlight and his game is getting better, not diminishing.
I'm gonna go with MR Hansen on this one.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Sadly, I think there is a possibility that we may not see Charlie Ngatai in a rugby jersey again.

As of September 8, he is still having symptoms for a concussion he suffered in the Chiefs v Highlanders game way back on May 7. When a person persistently suffers concussion symptoms for four months, their long term prognosis for recovery is not good. Such a person, even when fully recovered, carries a heightened risk of a serious concussion from a relatively mild bang on the head.

He must surely be seriously considering his future in the game.

That would be a massive pity. I think James Broadhurst is also in a similar position. He hasn't played since August 2015?

 

[Larksea]

yeah I think I said a month or so ago that if Ngatai isn't even back training yet we may never see him play again.

He was amazing this season, really went up a gear so to speak. Had more power and an extra yard of pace to go with his superb vision. And his kicking game as well. Having him in the midfield would be a huge bonus as he can basically operate as a playmaker as well with the skills he has.

and yeah crazy, broadhurst as well. such a shame both players I think had a lot of test footy in them.

I'm kinda hoping with both of them that their symptoms have cleared but they have both made the decision or been advised to skip the NPC to give themselves more time to recover and setup comebacks for super rugby next year.

Back to Fekitoa yes Jones Boy you're right it does take a long time to devalop as a quality miefielder I realise he's still young about 24 when midfielders tend to start to peak at 26. But at the same time this is his 3rd season as an All Black and his decision making and just his overall game in general hasn't really improved in my opinion. Even for the highlanders, I dont see him improving there, infact I see more potential in Faddes, and we have seen constant improvement from Buckman, buckman actually reminds be a bit of Conrad Smith. Late bloomer, not physically intimidating but constantly seems to punch above his weight and again that key area of decision making is on point. You could even say fekitoa has gone back a bit, when he first arrived he was busting tackles and scoring tries just through power and speed but that's not really happening anymore is it? I still see a lot of potential but as I said I think the key for him is to learn to play whats ahead of him rather than just doing a play just for the sake of it. He holds when the offload is on, he offloads when he needs to hold it. He doesn't kick much but when he does, wrong option. Generally the AB's play is breaking down when Fekitoa is involved.

 

[smartcooky]

I think James Broadhurst is also in a similar position. He hasn't played since August 2015?

Yes, that's right, although I understand he has started light training again.

Others affected are Ben Afeaki, who was was forced to retire from the game last year, and flanker Sean Polwart, who has has not played since the beginning of the 2015 season because he is still suffering concussion symptoms.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Larksea- bear in mind Fekitoa's first 10-12 games he was getting tiny cameos at the end of the match so coming on late when opposition teams are tired and dishevelled, it's easier to look good.
I do agree in that at the Highlanders he's not at the ideal franchise to get a great deal of learning done. But now he has a run in the AB starting line up due to injuries he has a chance to get it together and grab game time experience.
I prefer Moala but I wonder about his decision making and fitness.
Most of our best centres haven't looked the mutts nuts until they were 28 years of age.
Decision making is going to be the key for any of the players coming into that position and as they are all young they are all going to have issues.
Hansen has toyed with putting ben Smith there because his decision making is superb but he's not a centre, he's a back three player, ideally fullback.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I think people tend to underestimate what fekitoa does on defence and the space he creates by drawing 2 or three defenders

I think he just needs to get his offloading sorted to make the most of that space, if he could free his arms more it would be all on

Also, if he could get a regular midfield partner it would help greatly, nonu looked a lot better with smith, they knew how to support run each other

 

[CocoPampas]

I think Argentina should look at the possibility of a 2nd SR team. I know there are a lot of hurdles and it won't be next year (or even before the next RWC) but surely that's the next step.

Sure, that should be the next mid term step. I hope the UAR will ask for the second franchise as soon as 2020.
However, 3 years depending on only one team to feed the Pumas is too long time. Also, going through the next RWC with this system is too risky.
Argentina shouldn't take that risk.

Moreover, having the 2nd franchise isn't the solution to all our problems (although it would help a lot). A more flexible structure should be put in place in order to make some additional room for the new guys coming through the system, and also to let some other players reach the Pumas through some alternative paths.

 

[nickdnz]

ha! yeah silly me, of course thats all wingers need to do. Nothing else matters ...

Of course Savea has that record because back in 2012-2014 he was nigh unstoppable, 2015 he had one good test yes it just happened to be an absolutely mind blowing game in a test we dominated every aspect from start to finish but really we have seen very little from him since including pretty much going missing against SA and AU in the WC finals after that massive french game.

seriously savea or any winger worth his salt will score 1 on 1 with a bit of space close to the line. That basically accounts for his last 3 tries.

Heck Ryan Crotty has just run in 3 tries and all he had to do was catch the ball and run into a couple of gaps and put the ball down. hes playing well for sure but all the tries being scored are more a function of the work Aaron Smith, Barrett, Ben Smith and company are doing.

It isn't the tries that indicated to me he was in better form this game. He looked better under the high ball and did a couple of trademark powerful runs that we really have not seen from him since the WC french game and hadn't seen before that for even longer. he had an easier day on defense as Argentina targeted the middle of the field.

Good game from Savea yes for sure.

OMG SAVEA IS BACK! HIS FORM SLUMP IS OVER!... no.

Here is my problem. You say 2015 was such an average year for Savea. Maybe he wasn't as good as he was in 2014. But he scored 8 tries in 8 matches.

My argument is not that he is back to his best. It's that it's idiotic to have called the doomsday on his career because of an average season. Last year he was the highest try scorer in the world cup, while people were saying he's past it throughout.

Which left wingers are so much more promising on SR form?

Is it James Lowe? Cause he has a massive 2% higher tackle ratio (which was mentioned as a massive weakness of Savea). Osborne on the left wing also hads only 2% more.

Savea scored 3 more tries than Osborne, 1 less than Lowe (played less minutes than both). So which left winger means we should abandon the guy with a try scoring ratio higher than Cullen, Rokocoko, Wilson, Howlett, Lomu, Kirwin and Sivivatu? Or do you maybe think you're throwing the baby out with the bath watet?

 

[Larksea]

On Julian Savea... I'm not convinced there is a better winger in NZ.
Yes his performances are up and down.

overall in his career Savea has been amazing. 2012 - 2014 he was devastating, up there with Lomu & Rokocoko at their best.

but lets face it, recently "up and down" is an understatement. outside of utterly destroying france 1 game in 2015 we would have won anyway he basically did nothing.
And since he has been benched by the hurricanes. And before Naholo was injured he lost his starting spot for the AB's. His selection in the AB's squad is basically mostly on his record rather than form. Hansen constantly makes the point of referring to his fitness stats and how he is happy with them but form is another thing.

James Lowe has been on a great run for what 3 years now? He had a couple of rough games for the chiefs towards the end of the season, likely due to high workload more than anything else but outside of that he has been NZ's form left winger. And x-factor is his kicking game. He has a huge boot that can see territory gains of 50+ meters on a fairly regular basis. Big, speed, hits gaps, good at keeping the ball alive and finishing, still young and still improving. Then there is Rieko Ioane & McKenzie obviously both a bit green but seriously good prospects. jonny mcnicol had a great year, on form easily better than Savea but I understand he is/has headed overseas. On form alone the most obvious answer is Jason Woodward who took his starting position at the Canes... I also actually really rate Sam McNicol obviously again hes still only 20.

Some of these guys are very young but I'm all for debuting wingers young between WC's because they tend to peak before they are 25.

 

[Larksea]

Here is my problem. You say 2015 was such an average year for Savea. Maybe he wasn't as good as he was in 2014. But he scored 8 tries in 8 matches.

My argument is not that he is back to his best. It's that it's idiotic to have called the doomsday on his career because of an average season. Last year he was the highest try scorer in the world cup, while people were saying he's past it throughout.

Which left wingers are so much more promising on SR form?

Is it James Lowe? Cause he has a massive 2% higher tackle ratio (which was mentioned as a massive weakness of Savea). Osborne on the left wing also hads only 2% more.

Savea scored 3 more tries than Osborne, 1 less than Lowe (played less minutes than both). So which left winger means we should abandon the guy with a try scoring ratio higher than Cullen, Rokocoko, Wilson, Howlett, Lomu, Kirwin and Sivivatu? Or do you maybe think you're throwing the baby out with the bath watet?

dude, if hes so great how did he lose his starting spot at the hurricanes to Jason Woodward during the end of the season and finals when the Hurricanes hit their peak? His form slump is a real thing It's not something I've just made up to annoy you

Look, Savea has had an amazing career. His record is unbelievable. But its a fact that the last two years his form and fittness has been all over the place. He is 26 now, 29 by the next world cup and IMO by then I don't believe he will be in the picture. I think we need to find a winger that combines well with Naholo and Ben Smith

 

[eidde]

dude, if hes so great how did he lose his starting spot at the hurricanes to Jason Woodward during the end of the season and finals when the Hurricanes hit their peak? His form slump is a real thing It's not something I've just made up to annoy you

Look, Savea has had an amazing career. His record is unbelievable. But its a fact that the last two years his form and fittness has been all over the place. He is 26 now, 29 by the next world cup and IMO by then I don't believe he will be in the picture. I think we need to find a winger that combines well with Naholo and Ben Smith

And if NMS regains fitness I think we have that winger on hand - Naholo plays just as well on the left wing.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I think it's pretty clear, savea plays his best rugby with a bit of pressure on his position , he needs that motivation, not everyone if like dan cater / Ben smith / Richie / conrad smith etc who seemed to just play amazing football because they always want to be the best

 

[The Jones Boy]

Thats a fair call jabby, many of the younger players in particular are in need of having someone breathing down their neck to keep them focused on improving

 

[FNS]

Sure, that should be the next mid term step. I hope the UAR will ask for the second franchise as soon as 2020.
However, 3 years depending on only one team to feed the Pumas is too long time. Also, going through the next RWC with this system is too risky.
Argentina shouldn't take that risk.

Moreover, having the 2nd franchise isn't the solution to all our problems (although it would help a lot). A more flexible structure should be put in place in order to make some additional room for the new guys coming through the system, and also to let some other players reach the Pumas through some alternative paths.

This. They need the euro players in pumas at least next year and the other one to come. After that it will depend if the euro player can adjust to this "we play the ball from everywhere" pumas/jags style.

A 2nd FR would be awesome although i dont think we have the players for that(we need to send some jag to the new franchise and balance it out). Also we dont have the $$$ and the fan base yet but hopefully we´ll get there.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I'd love to but i don't see it. We can hardly manage one franchise. We do not have neither the players nor the resources to do so at this point, and we won't anytime time soon. Even if every European player came back and played for an Arg franchise, splitting the team would cost us dearly in terms of performance.
I am confident enough about our (jaguares) performance coming season. I'd have no confidence at all of making it to the play offs if we had to split our players into two franchises.
I'd rather have one strong one, make a statement and take it from there.

And about the game, i've been thinking about it and what is starting to worry me is our effectiveness.
Last two games are perfect examples. Our game against RSA, i think few here would argue we played better and deserved the win, but it doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to acknowledge that, had any of your kickers had an average day, as opposed to a bad one, the result could have very well been different. Elton and Steyn had and appalling day. I am not saying anything new, and I am trying to be as impartial and factual as possible and the facts are we won by 2 points and RSA missed more kicks than they generally do. We deserved to win, but that is a judgement call, not a fact.
Again, we played better, we deserved the win, but we got it by an inch.

And against the ABs game, again, i think few here would argue that our performance against the ABs was considerably better than say, Australia's in the first game. People (players, coaches, pundits, the lot) were all talking about how Argentina was able to put pressure and exploited the (few) vulnerabilities the ABs had. Go back and check what the newspapers from RSA, Arg, NZ, AUS or UK said about Australia's performance against NZ in the opening game. Not a single redeemable aspect. Not one.
Despite ALL of this, Argentina lost by more points and Australia. Again, facts.
For some reason, a very entertaining and decent performance from us renders a smaller point difference than an appalling display from Australia. I could understand that if Australia were the team of the century and we were a mess, but that ain't the case. When i see what the media is saying i can't help wandering, are we being pity****ed? I never would have thought so, but again, Aus loses by 34 points and they are a disaster, we lose by 35 and some people praise us...

What i am trying to say is that, despite the attractive rugby that we bring to the table (which i love and i think that is why we do get credit inside and outside our borders) we are having a lot of problems when we need to transform that into points in the board. This needs to be addressed, asap.
I'd be inclined to let this slide if i thought it was a one-off thing, but i am starting to see a pattern here, and i don't like it one bit.

The video below defines the Pumas to the t... fantastic 2 minute display of offensive skills against the best defense there is only to have an unchallenged player drop the ball 4 meters away from the try line.

https://www.facebook.com/momentssporting/videos/1735532036697437/

I am really curious about next weekend's game.

 

[CocoPampas]

This. They need the euro players in pumas at least next year and the other one to come. After that it will depend if the euro player can adjust to this "we play the ball from everywhere" pumas/jags style.

A 2nd FR would be awesome although i dont think we have the players for that(we need to send some jag to the new franchise and balance it out). Also we dont have the $$$ and the fan base yet but hopefully we´ll get there.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you.
Giving the players the freedom to go to Europe without any limit/restriction and still be able to play in the Pumas is not an option for us.
We know from SA's experience that will end with several top players prefering europe over super rugby, due to economical resons. And we aren't in a possition to handle this exodus.

We need to find the proper balance between requesting the players some time in our super rugby franchise and keeping open the oportunity of going to Europe for some time.

Regarding the 2nd SR franchise, I agree that we aren't still ready for that. However, I think that we may be ready in 3 years (spliting the Jags players between the two teams).

 

[LeanTaladro]

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you.
Giving the players the freedom to go to Europe without any limit/restriction and still be able to play in the Pumas is not an option for us.
We know from SA's experience that will end with several top players prefering europe over super rugby, due to economical resons. And we aren't in a possition to handle this exodus.

We need to find the proper balance between requesting the players some time in our super rugby franchise and keeping open the oportunity of going to Europe for some time.

Regarding the 2nd SR franchise, I agree that we aren't still ready for that. However, I think that we may be ready in 3 years (spliting the Jags players between the two teams).

Couldn't agree more

 

[smartcooky]

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you.
Giving the players the freedom to go to Europe without any limit/restriction and still be able to play in the Pumas is not an option for us.
We know from SA's experience that will end with several top players prefering europe over super rugby, due to economical resons. And we aren't in a possition to handle this exodus.

We need to find the proper balance between requesting the players some time in our super rugby franchise and keeping open the oportunity of going to Europe for some time.

Regarding the 2nd SR franchise, I agree that we aren't still ready for that. However, I think that we may be ready in 3 years (spliting the Jags players between the two teams).

I see that Tomás Cubelli, who was playing for the Brumbies not the Jaguares, was selected for Los Pumas so does that mean that players playing for ANY SR franchise are eligible, or was he an exception? If such players are eligible, then trying a get a few Argentine players into other SR franchises, or even getting them into the M10 Cup might be useful. I recall Francisco Bosch making quite an impact for Manawatu a few years ago.

 

[Larksea]

When i see what the media is saying i can't help wandering, are we being pity****ed? I never would have thought so, but again, Aus loses by 34 points and they are a disaster, we lose by 35 and some people praise us...

ignore the scoreline, watching how the game unfolded in particular the first half. Argentina caused genuine issues for the NZ defense that we probably haven't seen since 2013 when Tuilungi went on a rampage. Got us scrambling and made large chunks of ground, caused our defense to streatch, caused Dane Coles and Aaron Smith to get pulled early and they crossed for a couple of trys. almost a 3rd.

Australia went 160min without really looking like they were a threat to our tryline.

I think if you compared the stats like All Black Missed tackles and opposition like breaks in the Aussie games compared to this game it would reflect why this was seen as a positive effort by Argentina.

 

[FNS]

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you.
Giving the players the freedom to go to Europe without any limit/restriction and still be able to play in the Pumas is not an option for us.
We know from SA's experience that will end with several top players prefering europe over super rugby, due to economical resons. And we aren't in a possition to handle this exodus.

We need to find the proper balance between requesting the players some time in our super rugby franchise and keeping open the oportunity of going to Europe for some time.

Regarding the 2nd SR franchise, I agree that we aren't still ready for that. However, I think that we may be ready in 3 years (spliting the Jags players between the two teams).

My bad for not expresing fully. Off course a restriction must be in place but we need a mix system like 2x1 or something like that.

Also as i said in a topic i opened on SR sub forum, players are already being lured from PLADAR to Europe. THIS is a big big issue for the2nd franchise. Damn is an issue for jags already....