[2016 Rugby Championship] South Africa v Argentina (20/08/2016)

[TRF_heineken]

Venue: Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit
Time: 17:05 CAT (SA, GMT+2)​

Teams

Springboks: 15 Johan Goosen, 14 Ruan Combrinck, 13 Lionel Mapoe, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Elton Jantjies, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Warren Whiteley, 7 Oupa Mohoje, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Julian Redelinghuys, 2 Adriaan Strauss, 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi, 17 Steven Kitshoff, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 20 Jaco Kriel, 21 Rudy Paige, 22 Juan de Jongh, 23, Jesse Kriel

Argentina: 1. Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro, 2. Agustín Creevy (c), 3. Ramiro Herrera, 4. Matías Alemanno, 5. Tomas Lavanini, 6. Pablo Matera, 7. Juan Manuel Leguizamon, 8. Facundo Isa, 9. Martín Landajo, 10. Nicolás Sánchez, 11. Manuel Montero, 12. Juan Martin Hernandez, 13. Matías Orlando, 14. Santiago Cordero, 15. Joaquin Tuculet

Substitutes: 16. Julian Montoya, 17. Felipe Arregui, 18. Enrique Pieretto, 19. Guido Petti, 20. Javier Ortega Desio, 21. Tomas Cubelli, 22. Santiago Gonzalez Iglesias, 23. Ramiro Moyano

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'm equal parts excited and anxious but will wait for the team announcement. I expect we'll have a mixed bag again.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm equal parts excited and anxious but will wait for the team announcement. I expect we'll have a mixed bag again.

I feel the same about this coming weekend, but for different reasons. It's my Brother's Bachelor party, and It's going to be awesome, and I hope our arrangements all work out. And we have a bar with a tv for the Rugby organised too!!

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Both teams seem to be in a bit of a transition. Will be interested to see if there is any attempt by the Springboks to be more expansive in their play (like Lions) - there are real mixed signals coming out of their camp about that (coach says maybe, player says no). Changing style would cause short term pain but might reap big long term gain.

Worried Hourcade won't be able to knock any bad habits out of the Jaguares players (indiscipline, soft defence) so think Springboks will win by 10-14. I expect the quality of play from both sides to improve as the tournament goes on.

Gutted I won't be seeing Rensburg in a Springboks top. I find that hard to understand given we are three years out from a World Cup and international sides should be looking to experiment with young options (who should hit their prime in 2019).

 

[Jaguares]

Probable Bok team:

15 Johan Goosen
14 Ruan Combrinck
13 Lionel Mapoe
12 Damian de Allende
11 Bryan Habana
10 Elton Jantjies
9 Faf de Klerk
8 Warren Whiteley
7 Oupa Mohoje
6 Francois Louw
5 Pieter-Steph du Toit
4 Eben Etzebeth
3 Julian Redelinghuys
2 Adriaan Strauss (c)
1 Beast Mtawarira

 

[TRF_heineken]

Bok team will be announced on Thursday at 13:00 CAT.

 

[Bull]

I hope that's not the team! What a slap in the face to guys that haven't been picked. Goosen, Habana, Louw, Mohoje, seems AC is losing the plot quicker than Heyneke.

 

[SomeOke]

I hope that's not the team! What a slap in the face to guys that haven't been picked. Goosen, Habana, Louw, Mohoje, seems AC is losing the plot quicker than Heyneke.

Who do you mean other than Jaco Kriel, I'm happy with Goosen and Habana at least don't see many other replacements.

 

[George Ford]

Probable Bok team:

15 Johan Goosen
14 Ruan Combrinck
13 Lionel Mapoe
12 Damian de Allende
11 Bryan Habana
10 Elton Jantjies
9 Faf de Klerk
8 Warren Whiteley
7 Oupa Mohoje
6 Francois Louw
5 Pieter-Steph du Toit
4 Eben Etzebeth
3 Julian Redelinghuys
2 Adriaan Strauss (c)
1 Beast Mtawarira

Lood De Jager will be partnering Etzebeth as our lock combination. PSDT will be playing from the bench as he can cover both lock and looseforward.

 

[Bull]

Who do you mean other than Jaco Kriel, I'm happy with Goosen and Habana at least don't see many other replacements.

Kriel is better than Louw and Mohoje combined. Notshe who was sent back to WP is better than Mohoje. What do we know about Goosen playing at 15? He is a 10, who was regularly injured. Willie Le Roux has been out of form for a long time but now AC picks a guy playing abroad which is a slap in the face of many local players. SA doesn't have great depth at 15 or at least most guys didn't play well during the SR season but I'm sure there are 1 or 2 guys( Kolbe, Coetzee) better than Goosen. As for Habana I haven't rated him in ages, he is being picked because of his reputation, again I'm sure someone else could fill his place.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Both teams seem to be in a bit of a transition. Will be interested to see if there is any attempt by the Springboks to be more expansive in their play (like Lions) - there are real mixed signals coming out of their camp about that (coach says maybe, player says no). Changing style would cause short term pain but might reap big long term gain.

Worried Hourcade won't be able to knock any bad habits out of the Jaguares players (indiscipline, soft defence) so think Springboks will win by 10-14. I expect the quality of play from both sides to improve as the tournament goes on.

Gutted I won't be seeing Rensburg in a Springboks top. I find that hard to understand given we are three years out from a World Cup and international sides should be looking to experiment with young options (who should hit their prime in 2019).

I expect we will see a bit more expansive play but I expect that in the form of counter-attacks/kick returns rather than during phase play mainly due to De Allende being there.

I too am sad not to have Janse van Rensburg there either at 12 or on the wing; De Allende can regain his form in SR rather than test rugby IMO and we'd then have the benefit of 'the Lions connection' from 8 to 13 though if fit I'd rather have Pollard at 10. Also, like you said, the RWC is not that far off and we won't be fielding a 36 year old Habana at 11 and need to find our replacements.

Kriel is better than Louw and Mohoje combined. Notshe who was sent back to WP is better than Mohoje. What do we know about Goosen playing at 15? He is a 10, who was regularly injured. Willie Le Roux has been out of form for a long time but now AC picks a guy playing abroad which is a slap in the face of many local players. SA doesn't have great depth at 15 or at least most guys didn't play well during the SR season but I'm sure there are 1 or 2 guys( Kolbe, Coetzee) better than Goosen. As for Habana I haven't rated him in ages, he is being picked because of his reputation, again I'm sure someone else could fill his place.

Goosen has been a key player for the Top14 champions and Euro Cup finalists and he was shifting between 15 and 13 recently. He doesn't seem to be made of glass anymore as it looks like his body has matured but he still has a decent amount of pace and a well rounded skillset. He should be a decent bit more ready and able to do duty for us than the two you mentioned.

 

[Sker]

Kriel is better than Louw and Mohoje combined. Notshe who was sent back to WP is better than Mohoje. What do we know about Goosen playing at 15? He is a 10, who was regularly injured. Willie Le Roux has been out of form for a long time but now AC picks a guy playing abroad which is a slap in the face of many local players. SA doesn't have great depth at 15 or at least most guys didn't play well during the SR season but I'm sure there are 1 or 2 guys( Kolbe, Coetzee) better than Goosen. As for Habana I haven't rated him in ages, he is being picked because of his reputation, again I'm sure someone else could fill his place.

Bull, this isn't 2012/13 anymore, Goosen has been doing pretty well.

EDIT: yes, yes I know... Goosen fanboy

 

[unrated]

Bull, this isn't 2012/13 anymore, Goosen has been doing pretty well.

EDIT: yes, yes I know... Goosen fanboy

Nope he has deserved it. He played well enough when in South Africa to become a Springbok and he is playing well enough overseas to be a Springbok. I remember watching him play that test match vs the All Blacks thinking wow this guy is good. Then the South African rugby public did what it does best they moved onto the next best up and coming youngster. Cant wait for our 3 best fly-halves (Goosen, Pollard and Lambie) to be playing in one team. Now we just have to wait for SARU to come to their senses and invite Francois Steyn to the next springbok camp.

 

[Jacobus Pienaar]

Dysfunctional midfield. Probably waiting to be penetrated, maybe not this time but surely by the AB's De Allende is a bit of a clunky center. My comparison here is someone like Aaron Mauger of some time back. He was a center that always played to create for those around him. De Allende seems firmly to believe he is destined to run past the opposition, so he tries it all the time. Mapoe has for the Lions (he is in the team mostly because his showing in the Lions team) been the guy that receives the pass after some clever play by those around him. So he ran spectacularly well at times. But he is not a good creator of chances for others. So - two midfielders that do not create for others and both are prone to keep the ball when a pass is on. And they do not know each other. So we do not even know IF they can form a combination.
Oupa is not bad.... but that is not the main reason he is there. Kriel would have been a far better choice.
Elton on his day can be as destructive as Carlos Spencer was. And that is the clue to his weak spot (that the Hurricanes exploited in the Super final). Like Spencer he needs space and time to weave the magic. Cut off his space and time and he becomes jittery and makes mistakes and seem not be able to release his attacker. He has shown in tyhe past he can - unlike Spencer - also play on the advantage line which is playing a game that does not need space and time. He never seemed able to change to that against the Hurricanes.
The rest is probably as good as we can offer - and combinations that have worked before.
But we will not win this competition.

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Nope he has deserved it. He played well enough when in South Africa to become a Springbok and he is playing well enough overseas to be a Springbok. I remember watching him play that test match vs the All Blacks thinking wow this guy is good. Then the South African rugby public did what it does best they moved onto the next best up and coming youngster. Cant wait for our 3 best fly-halves (Goosen, Pollard and Lambie) to be playing in one team. Now we just have to wait for SARU to come to their senses and invite Francois Steyn to the next springbok camp.

Plus - who else is there on 15 to consider?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Dysfunctional midfield. Probably waiting to be penetrated, maybe not this time but surely by the AB's De Allende is a bit of a clunky center. My comparison here is someone like Aaron Mauger of some time back. He was a center that always played to create for those around him. De Allende seems firmly to believe he is destined to run past the opposition, so he tries it all the time. Mapoe has for the Lions (he is in the team mostly because his showing in the Lions team) been the guy that receives the pass after some clever play by those around him. So he ran spectacularly well at times. But he is not a good creator of chances for others. So - two midfielders that do not create for others and both are prone to keep the ball when a pass is on. And they do not know each other. So we do not even know IF they can form a combination.
Oupa is not bad.... but that is not the main reason he is there. Kriel would have been a far better choice.
Elton on his day can be as destructive as Carlos Spencer was. And that is the clue to his weak spot (that the Hurricanes exploited in the Super final). Like Spencer he needs space and time to weave the magic. Cut off his space and time and he becomes jittery and makes mistakes and seem not be able to release his attacker. He has shown in tyhe past he can - unlike Spencer - also play on the advantage line which is playing a game that does not need space and time. He never seemed able to change to that against the Hurricanes.
The rest is probably as good as we can offer - and combinations that have worked before.
But we will not win this competition.

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Plus - who else is there on 15 to consider?

Good first post. I say that in part because I agree with you on all counts. I also think its a good post despite my sharing your sentiments.

Welcome to the forum! Are you a Lions fan, Jacobus?

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Nope he has deserved it. He played well enough when in South Africa to become a Springbok and he is playing well enough overseas to be a Springbok. I remember watching him play that test match vs the All Blacks thinking wow this guy is good. Then the South African rugby public did what it does best they moved onto the next best up and coming youngster. Cant wait for our 3 best fly-halves (Goosen, Pollard and Lambie) to be playing in one team. Now we just have to wait for SARU to come to their senses and invite Francois Steyn to the next springbok camp.

.. I have mixed feelings on this.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Dysfunctional midfield. Probably waiting to be penetrated, maybe not this time but surely by the AB's De Allende is a bit of a clunky center. My comparison here is someone like Aaron Mauger of some time back. He was a center that always played to create for those around him. De Allende seems firmly to believe he is destined to run past the opposition, so he tries it all the time. Mapoe has for the Lions (he is in the team mostly because his showing in the Lions team) been the guy that receives the pass after some clever play by those around him. So he ran spectacularly well at times. But he is not a good creator of chances for others. So - two midfielders that do not create for others and both are prone to keep the ball when a pass is on. And they do not know each other. So we do not even know IF they can form a combination.
Oupa is not bad.... but that is not the main reason he is there. Kriel would have been a far better choice.
Elton on his day can be as destructive as Carlos Spencer was. And that is the clue to his weak spot (that the Hurricanes exploited in the Super final). Like Spencer he needs space and time to weave the magic. Cut off his space and time and he becomes jittery and makes mistakes and seem not be able to release his attacker. He has shown in tyhe past he can - unlike Spencer - also play on the advantage line which is playing a game that does not need space and time. He never seemed able to change to that against the Hurricanes.
The rest is probably as good as we can offer - and combinations that have worked before.
But we will not win this competition.

- - - Updated - - -

- - - Updated - - -



Plus - who else is there on 15 to consider?

I am in agreement with Stormer. Very good first post and welcome to the forum. Also agree on all points mentioned.

But on the point of 15. I don't think Frans Steyn is a solution at 15. We tried it, and failed, especially as he grew older, bigger and slower. Frans is a 12, and his distribution skills is one of his strong points like Aaron Mauger's was.

To me, the 15 position should be a 3-horse race between Jesse Kriel, Johan Goosen and Ruan Combrink. It's becoming more evident that your 15 must be able to be a good kicker and relieve pressure off your scrum- and fly half with regards to tactical kicking.

I don't see Lambie as a 15. I never have. He's a flyhalf that can play centre, like Dan Carter (net kakker).

 

[TRF_heineken]

Bok Team has been announced and added to the OP

 

[SomeOke]

For what it's worth I do think DdA does have good passing ability, a season ago he had the best offload stats in super rugby and the third highest in the entire competition. Unfortunately that part of his game seems to have completely dried up in favour of a straight battering ram. I have no idea whether this is coaching, form or confidence but it's disappointing. For me DdA has to step up in this RC or we must look elsewhere for our incumbent inside (and considering his form, fallibility and synergy with a mostly Lions back line we would look no further than Rohan). To be fair though Rohan has had about half a season of Super Rugby, not really enough of an indication for quality (Andre Taylor anyone?).

 

[George Ford]

Dysfunctional midfield. Probably waiting to be penetrated, maybe not this time but surely by the AB's De Allende is a bit of a clunky center. My comparison here is someone like Aaron Mauger of some time back. He was a center that always played to create for those around him. De Allende seems firmly to believe he is destined to run past the opposition, so he tries it all the time. Mapoe has for the Lions (he is in the team mostly because his showing in the Lions team) been the guy that receives the pass after some clever play by those around him. So he ran spectacularly well at times. But he is not a good creator of chances for others. So - two midfielders that do not create for others and both are prone to keep the ball when a pass is on. And they do not know each other. So we do not even know IF they can form a combination.
Oupa is not bad.... but that is not the main reason he is there. Kriel would have been a far better choice.
Elton on his day can be as destructive as Carlos Spencer was. And that is the clue to his weak spot (that the Hurricanes exploited in the Super final). Like Spencer he needs space and time to weave the magic. Cut off his space and time and he becomes jittery and makes mistakes and seem not be able to release his attacker. He has shown in tyhe past he can - unlike Spencer - also play on the advantage line which is playing a game that does not need space and time. He never seemed able to change to that against the Hurricanes.
The rest is probably as good as we can offer - and combinations that have worked before.
But we will not win this competition.

- - - Updated - - -

- - - Updated - - -



Plus - who else is there on 15 to consider?

Fully agree on the centre sentiments

De Allende scored the match-winning try for us in the 2nd test, but throughout the series he was way below his best. In fact it appears he has completely lost that creativity and unexpected side step he had last year and is conforming to just crashing off of 1st phase ball (he did it both for Stormers & Boks).

The general feeling on Mapoe's form was that he was not able to show his best, but it is exactly as you put it: he is a good runner (played winger), but not a creator. On test level the margins are smaller and thus the space more limited and he looked good for the Lions because he, like Skosan, benefited from the Lions running game.

They didn't even look like a centre combination against Ireland, but I guess AC is giving them a 2nd fair chance.

 

[TRF_heineken]

The thing is though, that this was the first time De Allende and Mapoe has ever played together as a centre combination, and it would have been a miracle had they clicked from the start. They had to grow together and understand what either of them can bring to compliment the other one. Along with that, De Allende was terribly out of form. Which I think isn't the case anymore, the question is how well they will play together as a combination when both of them are on form.

And here I'm a firm believer that if you have a player that is Springbok Quality and his centre pairing at franchise level is also Springbok quality, then pick them together as a unit, as it will just be easier for them to work together. And to grow confidence in what they should do for the Bokke.

It worked when De Wet Barry and Marius Joubert were our go to pair as well as when Jean De Villiers and Jaque Fourie were the pair.