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[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 3: Scotland vs Wales (25/02/2017)

Does anyone know why Beck doesn't get a look in? Can't really see an obvious weakness to his game and he always looks the part whenever i see him.

Beck, Parry and others don't get picked because Howler is a muppet.
This is the team I would like to see on Friday week -:

Evans, Parry, Lee.
Thornton, AWJ
Tipuric, Falataeu, Warburton.

Webb, Davies.
Evans, Beck, Davies, Giles.
Williams.

Bench -: Francis, Dacey, Smith: Charteris: Moriarty: A Davies, Biggar, 1/2p
 
Beck, Parry and others don't get picked because Howler is a muppet.
This is the team I would like to see on Friday week -:

Evans, Parry, Lee.
Thornton, AWJ
Tipuric, Falataeu, Warburton.

Webb, Davies.
Evans, Beck, Davies, Giles.
Williams.

Bench -: Francis, Dacey, Smith: Charteris: Moriarty: A Davies, Biggar, 1/2p

So you'd change over a third of the team and bring rookies into every spot?
 
Beck, Parry and others don't get picked because Howler is a muppet.
This is the team I would like to see on Friday week -:

Evans, Parry, Lee.
Thornton, AWJ
Tipuric, Falataeu, Warburton.

Webb, Davies.
Evans, Beck, Davies, Giles.
Williams.

Bench -: Francis, Dacey, Smith: Charteris: Moriarty: A Davies, Biggar, 1/2p

Do Welsh fans genuinely believe that Howley is calling the shots given how much of a control freak Gatland is? It can't be that hard for the two to stay in touch and for Gatland to be dishing out the orders over the phone especially as he has a lot of time on his hands at the moment. Howley might have a fair bit of input given that he's leading the training etc. but it wouldn't surprise me if he has to get team selection rubber stamped by Gatland.

Not sure about the Moriarty > Faletau move given the latter doesn't look match fit and hasn't made much impact after coming in so far.
 
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So you'd change over a third of the team and bring rookies into every spot?

Howley is in a bit of a bind, damned if he does, doubly so if he doesn't.

Would any Welshmen care to choose between;
a) same team working hard; getting plenty of territory, possession, and breakdown intensity but failing to convert that into points and ultimately losing to Ireland and France
b) mass changes; bringing flair to the game, some stunning moments of individual brilliance that lead to tries, but ultimately the lack of time spent playing together meaning that Ireland and France still win by exploiting the gaps that would inevitably come when players don't move instinctively together
 
Howley is in a bit of a bind, damned if he does, doubly so if he doesn't.

Would any Welshmen care to choose between;
a) same team working hard; getting plenty of territory, possession, and breakdown intensity but failing to convert that into points and ultimately losing to Ireland and France
b) mass changes; bringing flair to the game, some stunning moments of individual brilliance that lead to tries, but ultimately the lack of time spent playing together meaning that Ireland and France still win by exploiting the gaps that would inevitably come when players don't move instinctively together

Good post. And this is the dilemma Howley finds himself in due to them not blooding players in the Autumn and prior.

I expect him to remain largely with the tried and tested as I think they are still more likely to win than the rookies. (If they can reach the intensity shown vs England) You can't underestimate how much he needs this win for his career. If Wales, win, even if they just scrape it, but have played badly, the Welsh public won't care too much. It'll be a massive win against an Irish side who (apart from the Scotland game) have been tearing it up!
 
Firstly, while Moriarty has done a fantastic job, Faletau has been Wales' best player for long stretches in the last few years and often one of few bright lights amidst dismal team showings. The idea that he should be overlooked in favour of Moriarty purely because he has played most of his international rugby under Gatland and howley is bizarre. Toby is one of the few Wales forwards to prove without doubt that he does have the skills to play expansive 15 man rugby. If anything, whilst also a top player Moriarty offers a little less ball in hand. I think Wales have to resist the temptation to bin everything connected to the Gatland era. After all you're going to need his experience if you want to chuck a load of debutants in there.
 
I'm not a big advocate of selecting players based on reputation and past form. Moriarty was one of Wales' best performers against England and deserved to keep his place for the Scotland game. The coaches will see Faletau close up in training and I think it's fair to say his impact off the bench against both England and Scotland wasn't significant. I hope it's down to lack of match fitness because I'm also a huge admirer of an in form Faletau.
 
Howley is in a bit of a bind, damned if he does, doubly so if he doesn't.

Would any Welshmen care to choose between;
a) same team working hard; getting plenty of territory, possession, and breakdown intensity but failing to convert that into points and ultimately losing to Ireland and France
b) mass changes; bringing flair to the game, some stunning moments of individual brilliance that lead to tries, but ultimately the lack of time spent playing together meaning that Ireland and France still win by exploiting the gaps that would inevitably come when players don't move instinctively together

He is indeed.

but while your option b) sounds great, that's assuming the way it goes.
You could easily change b) to mass changes, players overwhelmed by the pressure, disjointed play, haphazard defence, get utterly destroyed and ruin the confidence of the new players.

No doubt change is needed but that is too much change imho - of the new guys VC named, only Davies (5) and Beck (7) have any caps at all (mostly off the bench I think).
 
He is indeed.

but while your option b) sounds great, that's assuming the way it goes.
You could easily change b) to mass changes, players overwhelmed by the pressure, disjointed play, haphazard defence, get utterly destroyed and ruin the confidence of the new players.

No doubt change is needed but that is too much change imho - of the new guys VC named, only Davies (5) and Beck (7) have any caps at all (mostly off the bench I think).

That's what would worry me, and would be the likeliest outcome if we bring in too many rookies at once. It's all the management team's own doing, and I hope they realize that!
 
Let's be honest some of you are still afraid of change. We are probably the most stagnant rugby nation in this tournament, Italy have more creativity in attack than us , be are predictable and boring , the only reason we compete to a degree is because we have a well drilled defense and some moments of individual brilliance most matches. There is no cohesiveness in attack and our game plan is to kick the ball route one but keep it in play whenever possible then let the opposition run at us in hope of our defence creating a turnover , seriously look at most our games we rarely run from our own 22 , we are still playing warrenball even though the management says different it's a dressed up warrenball and the longer we are under the that management then that's all we will ever been, It's time to grow some balls Welsh fans how much worse can we be by giving the opportunity to our younger lads . Seriously Moriarty needs to start he is the exact type of dynamic player we arw needing in this team alongside some creative talents like Sam Davies, Scott Williams, Ashley's beck , Giles, webb , tipuric etc etc and if that means benching falatau then so be it, he is not on form at the minute anyway , I've not been impressed with his performance s from the bench so far.
 
So you'd change over a third of the team and bring rookies into every spot?

Bloody right I would, it's about being competitive come WC year, it's no good trying to protect world ranking's with a deteriorating side.

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Do Welsh fans genuinely believe that Howley is calling the shots given how much of a control freak Gatland is? It can't be that hard for the two to stay in touch and for Gatland to be dishing out the orders over the phone especially as he has a lot of time on his hands at the moment. Howley might have a fair bit of input given that he's leading the training etc. but it wouldn't surprise me if he has to get team selection rubber stamped by Gatland.

Not sure about the Moriarty > Faletau move given the latter doesn't look match fit and hasn't made much impact after coming in so far.

I take your point but with Ross M being a genuine 6 rather than 8 and also expecting Falatau to be nearer game fit on Friday week than he was just over 3 weeks back.

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Howley is in a bit of a bind, damned if he does, doubly so if he doesn't.

Would any Welshmen care to choose between;
a) same team working hard; getting plenty of territory, possession, and breakdown intensity but failing to convert that into points and ultimately losing to Ireland and France
b) mass changes; bringing flair to the game, some stunning moments of individual brilliance that lead to tries, but ultimately the lack of time spent playing together meaning that Ireland and France still win by exploiting the gaps that would inevitably come when players don't move instinctively together

Good Question b for me.
If as expected the same side start v Ireland and or France I seriously hope we get hammered, that may lead to the coaching changes we need, Jinksy is the only coach earning his keep therefore they only one who should remain.
 
I'd also bring back Hibbard he is in a rich vein of form and is the best hook by some margin , baldwin has gone backwards and Owens whilst been decent cannot match an inform Hibbard
 
That's what would worry me, and would be the likeliest outcome if we bring in too many rookies at once. It's all the management team's own doing, and I hope they realize that!

Which rookies should they have been picking last 6N? I know Ashley Beck isn't one of them as he was injured and I'm guessing Rory Thornton wasn't ready due to age. Parry and Davies?
 
Good post. And this is the dilemma Howley finds himself in due to them not blooding players in the Autumn and prior.

I expect him to remain largely with the tried and tested as I think they are still more likely to win than the rookies. (If they can reach the intensity shown vs England) You can't underestimate how much he needs this win for his career. If Wales, win, even if they just scrape it, but have played badly, the Welsh public won't care too much. It'll be a massive win against an Irish side who (apart from the Scotland game) have been tearing it up!

Correct the AI's were the time to try new combinations the WRU are reacting as they did in the 80's and early 90's. ie about 2 years late with there reactions to needed change.

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Let's be honest some of you are still afraid of change. We are probably the most stagnant rugby nation in this tournament, Italy have more creativity in attack than us , be are predictable and boring , the only reason we compete to a degree is because we have a well drilled defense and some moments of individual brilliance most matches. There is no cohesiveness in attack and our game plan is to kick the ball route one but keep it in play whenever possible then let the opposition run at us in hope of our defence creating a turnover , seriously look at most our games we rarely run from our own 22 , we are still playing warrenball even though the management says different it's a dressed up warrenball and the longer we are under the that management then that's all we will ever been, It's time to grow some balls Welsh fans how much worse can we be by giving the opportunity to our younger lads . Seriously Moriarty needs to start he is the exact type of dynamic player we arw needing in this team alongside some creative talents like Sam Davies, Scott Williams, Ashley's beck , Giles, webb , tipuric etc etc and if that means benching falatau then so be it, he is not on form at the minute anyway , I've not been impressed with his performance s from the bench so far.

Excellent post
 
Let's be honest some of you are still afraid of change. We are probably the most stagnant rugby nation in this tournament, Italy have more creativity in attack than us , be are predictable and boring , the only reason we compete to a degree is because we have a well drilled defense and some moments of individual brilliance most matches. There is no cohesiveness in attack and our game plan is to kick the ball route one but keep it in play whenever possible then let the opposition run at us in hope of our defence creating a turnover , seriously look at most our games we rarely run from our own 22 , we are still playing warrenball even though the management says different it's a dressed up warrenball and the longer we are under the that management then that's all we will ever been, It's time to grow some balls Welsh fans how much worse can we be by giving the opportunity to our younger lads . Seriously Moriarty needs to start he is the exact type of dynamic player we arw needing in this team alongside some creative talents like Sam Davies, Scott Williams, Ashley's beck , Giles, webb , tipuric etc etc and if that means benching falatau then so be it, he is not on form at the minute anyway , I've not been impressed with his performance s from the bench so far.

Agree with 90% of that. It's nothing to do with being afraid though, and no-one is arguing against change, however some of us realize that making mass changes in one go is a recipe for disaster, and one which may/will knock the confidence of some of the rookies brought in. The fact of the matter is that many of these players haven't yet been exposed to international rugby (either through injury or Howley/Gatland's lack of vision), but throwing them all in together against (on their day) the most intense team in the world (that test v NZ in Chicago was as intense as I've seen recently), would more than likely do more harm than good and prevent us from learning anything.

Re Moriarty & Faletau (can't believe I'm having to defend Faletau), Faletau was always up against it after such an injury ravaged season. He'll have had another 2 weeks of training and another game for Bath by the time the Ireland game rolls around, so depending on how he goes for Bath, I'd very much have him in the mix to start.

Faletau maybe isn't an ideal bench player either. His strengths are his work rate to the full 80, his all round game and his consistency. Maybe difficult for him to stamp his mark on a game in 10 mins off the bench (did against SA in the AI's though I suppose). Moriarty maybe offers more of a threat off the bench with his explosiveness.

I'd also bring back Hibbard he is in a rich vein of form and is the best hook by some margin , baldwin has gone backwards and Owens whilst been decent cannot match an inform Hibbard

How is bringing a 33y/o player back a step forwards? Yes he's been in good form for Gloucester, and yes he was one of the better Welsh hookers in recent years, but he's also just as inconsistent as the likes of Owens (who was magnificent v England btw), and also struggles in the lineout. Parry, Dacey, and Elias are the future, not Hibbard.

Which rookies should they have been picking last 6N? I know Ashley Beck isn't one of them as he was injured and I'm guessing Rory Thornton wasn't ready due to age. Parry and Davies?

That's a good question Peat. The likes of Giles & Steff Evans weren't around back then, whilst Sam Davies and Thornton hadn't had enough regional rugby to be considered more than good prospects. However Tipuric and Liam Williams weren't regular starters when everyone was fit, with Lydiate and the usual back 3 players preferred. Similarly Scott Williams was ignored in favor of Roberts who hadn't shown much in a long time v quality opposition.

So whilst we weren't calling for the same players, there's been a consistent delay in making changes. They end up being made, but usually a good year to late. I bet Lydiate would still be getting picked if he weren't injured and he hasn't been at the top of his game since 2012!
 
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Let's be honest some of you are still afraid of change. We are probably the most stagnant rugby nation in this tournament, Italy have more creativity in attack than us , be are predictable and boring , the only reason we compete to a degree is because we have a well drilled defense and some moments of individual brilliance most matches. There is no cohesiveness in attack and our game plan is to kick the ball route one but keep it in play whenever possible then let the opposition run at us in hope of our defence creating a turnover , seriously look at most our games we rarely run from our own 22 , we are still playing warrenball even though the management says different it's a dressed up warrenball and the longer we are under the that management then that's all we will ever been, It's time to grow some balls Welsh fans how much worse can we be by giving the opportunity to our younger lads . Seriously Moriarty needs to start he is the exact type of dynamic player we arw needing in this team alongside some creative talents like Sam Davies, Scott Williams, Ashley's beck , Giles, webb , tipuric etc etc and if that means benching falatau then so be it, he is not on form at the minute anyway , I've not been impressed with his performance s from the bench so far.

I'm not Welsh so it doesn't make much difference to me personally.

Change is needed, no question.

But I don't actually think the players are necessarily the problem and (to me at least) it makes no sense to change out so many players mid-tournament when you're coming up against arguably the best side in the competition.
It is asking way too much of the new players.
 
But I don't actually think the players are necessarily the problem and (to me at least) it makes no sense to change out so many players mid-tournament when you're coming up against arguably the best side in the competition.
It is asking way too much of the new players.

This. Our problems are rooted in our coaching. Some players will need to be changed but the problem goes much deeper than that. At the moment Wales can't decide whether they're playing Warrenball or (poorly) emulating the All Blacks. There is no direction, no refinement, and it's got to reach a breaking point eventually.
 
This. Our problems are rooted in our coaching. Some players will need to be changed but the problem goes much deeper than that. At the moment Wales can't decide whether they're playing Warrenball or (poorly) emulating the All Blacks. There is no direction, no refinement, and it's got to reach a breaking point eventually.

That breaking point is looming closer as we speak, which is why if we don't bring in at least Sam D to start v Ireland and at least one of Stef E or Giles then I sincerely hope we get a right pasting, which in turn may bring a change at coaching.
 
Just a point to consider. With the striking exception of Moriarty, virtually every player who has been plying their trade outside of the provinces has found themselves either under criticism or on the outside of the setup.

Roberts, Hibbard and Charteris, Halfpenny, North, Faletau(maybe early to say but he's taking some flak already), lydiate, Peel going further back...If I were Welsh I wouldn't feel happy about how players abroad are being integrated back in by the coaching side. Back in 2008, from memory, something like 13 out of 15 starters were Ospreys. It's obviously easier when the whole squad plays for the same province, but it's not the case any more. It's the coaches jobs to bring players from disparate provincial sides into camp where they have a shared frame to play within. There is obviously no such frame or if there is, it's not strong enough.
By all means make key changes to bring in the form players who can invigorate Wales but it's very obvious to me that there is also a failure to get the best out of many playing overseas which needs to be looked at.
 
Just a point to consider. With the striking exception of Moriarty, virtually every player who has been plying their trade outside of the provinces has found themselves either under criticism or on the outside of the setup.

Roberts, Hibbard and Charteris, Halfpenny, North, Faletau(maybe early to say but he's taking some flak already), lydiate, Peel going further back...If I were Welsh I wouldn't feel happy about how players abroad are being integrated back in by the coaching side. Back in 2008, from memory, something like 13 out of 15 starters were Ospreys. It's obviously easier when the whole squad plays for the same province, but it's not the case any more. It's the coaches jobs to bring players from disparate provincial sides into camp where they have a shared frame to play within. There is obviously no such frame or if there is, it's not strong enough.
By all means make key changes to bring in the form players who can invigorate Wales but it's very obvious to me that there is also a failure to get the best out of many playing overseas which needs to be looked at.

This is an interesting point. I suppose the question is, are they poorly re-integrated, or are they worse players than when they left Wales? A few of the older ones (Hibbard, Roberts, Hook) are struggling purely for that reason alone, they're over the hill and with the lack of access it made/makes sense to select younger Wales based alternatives. I'd argue that North, Halfpenny & Jon Fox are worse players than when they left Wales. Is that a fault of the clubs they're now playing in? Difficult to say, but I think that is certainly part of it. Northampton are generally struggling against the best, with a lack of creatively evident across the board. When North has been given space, he's still lethal, but he doesn't often go looking for the ball with Northampton or Wales, something you would have never accused him of when he was at the Scarlets. A number of players have now gone to France and gotten worse (Davies, Halfpenny, Lydiate, Phillips). The only recent exception has been Charteris, who arguably improved, and other than getting on a bit, is struggling atm due to a lack of game time this season. Same goes for Faletau, who shouldn't be receiving any criticism after his injury ravaged season (blame our lack of alternatives, and Howley's substitution strategies).

It'll be interesting to see how Liam Williams get's on at Saracens. Their coaching appears top notch, so I think we should see him improving as long as he can nail down a starting berth (preferably at fullback).
 

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