[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 3: Scotland vs Wales (25/02/2017)

[Peat]

That's a good question Peat. The likes of Giles & Steff Evans weren't around back then, whilst Sam Davies and Thornton hadn't had enough regional rugby to be considered more than good prospects. However Tipuric and Liam Williams weren't regular starters when everyone was fit, with Lydiate and the usual back 3 players preferred. Similarly Scott Williams was ignored in favor of Roberts who hadn't shown much in a long time v quality opposition.

So whilst we weren't calling for the same players, there's been a consistent delay in making changes. They end up being made, but usually a good year to late. I bet Lydiate would still be getting picked if he weren't injured and he hasn't been at the top of his game since 2012!

Fair points. I feel a bit for Jamie Roberts, his body has taken this massive punishment and just can't keep going the same way. There's a few guys like him that should have been shuffled out earlier its true.

 

[ThebigARena]

I'm under no illusions that bringing in the young blood Won't turn us into the ABs but more importantly it shows a step in the right direction IF this management is to remain which I sincerely hope they don't. I have also been thinking about this game against Ireland , Sam has to come into the 10 role but I'd like to see biggar play at 12 , I don't think he deserved to be dropped to the bench , his attitude towards defense is admirable and he's excellent under the high ball as is his kick and chase , hes also a world class kicker , drop j. Davies to the bench , Scott at 13 I'd like to see it trialed but it won't happen for sure

 

[martinspoonboy1]

I'm under no illusions that bringing in the young blood Won't turn us into the ABs but more importantly it shows a step in the right direction IF this management is to remain which I sincerely hope they don't. I have also been thinking about this game against Ireland , Sam has to come into the 10 role but I'd like to see biggar play at 12 , I don't think he deserved to be dropped to the bench , his attitude towards defense is admirable and he's excellent under the high ball as is his kick and chase , hes also a world class kicker , drop j. Davies to the bench , Scott at 13 I'd like to see it trialed but it won't happen for sure

I'm not sure Biggar would add more than S. Williams at 12. He just wouldn't be used to playing there. Plus Howley has flatly denied that Wales would consider Biggar at 12 in previous press conferences so it ain'tt going to happen in any case.

 

[dullonien]

I'm under no illusions that bringing in the young blood Won't turn us into the ABs but more importantly it shows a step in the right direction IF this management is to remain which I sincerely hope they don't. I have also been thinking about this game against Ireland , Sam has to come into the 10 role but I'd like to see biggar play at 12 , I don't think he deserved to be dropped to the bench , his attitude towards defense is admirable and he's excellent under the high ball as is his kick and chase , hes also a world class kicker , drop j. Davies to the bench , Scott at 13 I'd like to see it trialed but it won't happen for sure

Biggar could work at 12, but there are a few ****ling doubts in my mind. Whilst his defense is solid 98% of the time, there have been occasions where he's fallen off one-on-one tackles in the past, and this could be more exposed in the 12 channel than it is in the 10 channel. However this wouldn't be enough of a reason for me not to want it trialed at some stage. Whether Ireland is the correct place, I don't know. He does bring a lot of qualities to the backline, including his experience, vocal leadership, and work ethic. With a more natural playmaker inside of him calling the attacking shots and setting the attacking shape, Biggar's distribution could be very valuable from 12, and this is one area he trumps Scott Williams; the other being his kicking. Biggar cops a lot of flak for his distribution from 10, but that's more to do with how deep he sits, and less to do with his ability to actually pass the ball. I think I'm right in saying that Sam Davies is a left footed kicker, so with Biggar being a right footed kicker, it would give us another reliable boot.

Other options would of course be Owen Williams and Ashley Beck. Depends what's more favorable, international experience, or experience playing at 12 at club/regional level.

 

[MikeTheNative]

I'd rather have Owen Williams at 12 than Biggar who I don't think is quick enough to play centre or particularity caries well. Wales management have backed themselves into a corner regarding the new blood. All the times a player has been injured and they had the chance to try a new player, the 'experience' was selected over form. I'm not calling for a half a new team but they could at least put the like of Thornton and Parry on the bench and give them 20 mins. Giles is back now and he surely has to be given so game time in the last two games as he's still scoring tries for fun. Most of all I would like to see Scott Williams used any way, other than take crash ball off the 10, waste of his talent.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

A Davies/Biggar partnership would also be very light. Biggar is 6'2 and 14 stone. People complain about Farrell being a bit lightweight and unable to breach the advantage line, but he's a good stone/stone and a half heavier than biggar.

As England have shown, size is everything at 10-12, but it can help if you need to go route one from time to time.

 

[dullonien]

If Howley needed reminding what Sam Davies offers, last nights Edinburgh v Ospreys game hopefully did so. Despite atrocious conditions, his moment of brilliance was the difference between the sides, whilst he also showed composure in kicking a tough penalty. His kicking out of hand was also superb all evening, finding grass 90% of the time. With all the talk of his attacking strengths it's easy to forget that his biggest strength is probably his kicking game. He can kick off his left and right feet as well, which is a big bonus under pressure. He's not some flashy 10 who's good going forwards but struggles at the basics of controlling the game and relieving pressure. With Sam Davies also currently the most accurate place kicker in the Pro12, arguably the only part of Biggar's game which is superior is his defense. So I don't see this change as some massive gamble. Hopefully last nights performance will convince Howley to start Sam!

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

This is an interesting point. I suppose the question is, are they poorly re-integrated, or are they worse players than when they left Wales? A few of the older ones (Hibbard, Roberts, Hook) are struggling purely for that reason alone, they're over the hill and with the lack of access it made/makes sense to select younger Wales based alternatives. I'd argue that North, Halfpenny & Jon Fox are worse players than when they left Wales. Is that a fault of the clubs they're now playing in? Difficult to say, but I think that is certainly part of it. Northampton are generally struggling against the best, with a lack of creatively evident across the board. When North has been given space, he's still lethal, but he doesn't often go looking for the ball with Northampton or Wales, something you would have never accused him of when he was at the Scarlets. A number of players have now gone to France and gotten worse (Davies, Halfpenny, Lydiate, Phillips). The only recent exception has been Charteris, who arguably improved, and other than getting on a bit, is struggling atm due to a lack of game time this season. Same goes for Faletau, who shouldn't be receiving any criticism after his injury ravaged season (blame our lack of alternatives, and Howley's substitution strategies).

It'll be interesting to see how Liam Williams get's on at Saracens. Their coaching appears top notch, so I think we should see him improving as long as he can nail down a starting berth (preferably at fullback).

The thing I don't fully understand is the speed of the process by which guys like Roberts and Hibbard have come to be accepted as not having anything let to offer Wales. It's obviously going to happen eventually, but I think the whole process was just speeded up a few years by moving across the border. I think it was as recently as last six nations that Roberts' performances were being highly acclaimed and the likes of Scrum V were still talking about how important Roberts was to Wales. And I'm not making that point to highlight anything about the Welsh media, as I believe they are quite a reliable gauge of whether a player is in favour. My opinion is that to an extent Roberts is just a casualty of the backlash against Warrenball, because he's seen to epitomise that preference for bosh over guile. It's obviously unfair because Roberts has slotted into very well functioning backlines which include the lions. Don't get me wrong I'm not for a second arguing that Jamie Roberts should come back in at 12, I don't think that would be right at all. I can't really talk much about his form at Quins but I believe that when he left Wales he still had something to offer. He now is just wheeled on as a sub (WHY?) which really just helps support the hypothesis that he's slowing down because that's not a role he was really meant for and he isn't in a position to do much for those cameos.

To be honest, Roberts is almost an irrelevant example because although I think his moving from Wales has speeded up his exclusion and his becoming a more peripheral squad player, I also think this is probably the correct thing for Wales going forward.
The best thing about Liam Williams coming to Saracens is that he'll oust Alex Goode who will never again be called up for England, Hoorah. But as a fan of exciting players I'm not sure I like the idea of Williams heading to Saracens,

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

For those who are interested, Faletau is looked very 'dynamic' so far against Wasps with his carrying. Hopefully he will silence his doubters.

 

[dullonien]

For those who are interested, Faletau is looked very 'dynamic' so far against Wasps with his carrying. Hopefully he will silence his doubters.

Doubter you mean?

 

[ThebigARena]

I'm from penparcau

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That explains so much

 

[welshoptimist]

Just a personal preference. I think he fits into the Ospreys system well, of course. When he played for Wales I felt he was finding the intensity of the opposition defence difficult. Think he only had 5 odd caps and then fell off the radar? My point in the post was that is he's probably the only other viable option at 12 at the moment and there is a number of positions where younger players are there but the process of advancing to first team rugby is slow, or not always possible.

what happened to owen Watkin? he seemed to be a really good player and has just disappeared

 

[ThebigARena]

what happened to owen Watkin? he seemed to be a really good player and has just disappeared

Not good enough, a bit like Gareth anscombe

 

[welshoptimist]

Not good enough, a bit like Gareth anscombe

lol that's true, anybody else notice the anscombe looks like matt damon?
I do have my doubts about liam Williams as full back too, I think it is better he be on the wing, he has a lot of attacking flair and talent but his positioning is all wrong, and his defensive work and kicking arnt good either

 

[dullonien]

what happened to owen Watkin? he seemed to be a really good player and has just disappeared

Not good enough, a bit like Gareth anscombe

Eh? He got held back from participating at the U20 WC to train with the Ospreys, but got injured, and required surgery over the summer! Not back yet that I've heard. Real prospect if you ask me.

 

[welshoptimist]

Eh? He got held back from participating at the U20 WC to train with the Ospreys, but got injured, and required surgery over the summer! Not back yet that I've heard. Real prospect if you ask me.

ah he has been injured, I'm glad he hasn't just been forgotten, one of the few centres coming through that actually seemed genuinely dangerous

 

[ThebigARena]

Here's the team I would go with on Friday night.

15 L Williams
14 K Giles
13 S Williams
12 Biggar
11. North
10. S.davies
9. R. Webb
8 MORIARTY
7. Youngs
6. Warbs
5.wyn jones
4 Thornton
3.francis
2. Owens
1.Evans

No room for charteris or ball , ball is mediocre and charteris is on the slide.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Here's the team I would go with on Friday night.

15 L Williams
14 K Giles
13 S Williams
12 Biggar
11. North
10. S.davies
9. R. Webb
8 MORIARTY
7. Youngs
6. Warbs
5.wyn jones
4 Thornton
3.francis
2. Owens
1.Evans

No room for charteris or ball , ball is mediocre and charteris is on the slide.

I Still don't understand your definition of 'dynamic', nor your raging hard-on at the idea of Moriarty at 8.

 

[ThebigARena]

I Still don't understand your definition of 'dynamic', nor your raging hard-on at the idea of Moriarty at 8.

Well if you watched the Wales V England game you would of seen dynamism that was shown by Moriarty , hard hitting , carrying ,not taking a backward step not influenced by the likes of gatland , he plays with a freshness and shows a vigour that I love to see just want to see more young players like him breaking through the ranks.