[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 5: Ireland vs England (18/03/2017)

[ALJ]

Amazing how quickly expectations turn. The Irish boys on here were very sanguine about this tournament until last game, and most learned English posters were fearing the Dublin fixture a long way off. I don't know that much has changed - Ireland have PLENTY to play for. It certainly didn't hold them back in 2009(?). What a chance to get on the lions game. There's VERY few Irish guys likely to start with no chance of touring. Toner? Earls? Even Ringrose has a chance to get on the plane. Only on one occasion has an away side this tournament if you forget about Italy. I think it's 50/50.

I agree that Ireland have much to play for aside from beating England on St P's Day weekend - Personal pride, ranking points, Lions spots, hell Ireland spots for that matter.

But please God, Earls can't be in with a realistic chance of the Lions can he?

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Don't disagree that they both bring a lot to the team, but just don't think they play particularly well together, definitely not enough to warrant starting one just because the other is.

This isn't a counter argument, more just wondering out loud, but have the 2 of them actually played much rugby together? Billy only moved to Sarries in '13, Kruis has been there since '09. So surely, unless the 2 of them played together much growing up which is unlikely due to different age groups, Mako would actually have a better partnership with Kruis, or George, or Farrell, than he would with Billy. Just a thought.

I'd have to disagree. The threat that they both provide in one-out carrying situations is fairly unique - in terms of generating quick ball from static starts. Having both of them effectively reduces the ability of the opposition to man-mark either one and creates an additional phase of quick ball whilst the other gets up and back into position. Furthermore, at Saracens and for England you will often see mako take the ball off 9 with Billy outside him, which is nigh on impossible to defend effectively with makos hands + their combined carrying power.

Overall it's not so much fantastic interplay in the way you might expect from a great center partnership, but more their ability to alleviate defence pressure and carrying responsibility from each other. Also worth noting that Billy is one of the most emotionally temperamental rugby players going, so having his big brother around probably doesn't hurt his psyche.

 

[nh206]

I get where you are coming from with this and it's one of the main reasons that Hughes was easily neutralised in the early games (he was the sole carrier). I think Mako provides an excellent extra ball carrying threat, but I don't think that it is suddenly ineffective without Billy and vice versa but that it's simply more effective when they can't be targeted. For instance, Mako + Hughes presents a fairly significant threat and only less effective than Mako + Billy by an amount of Billy - Hughes (if that makes sense).

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I get where you are coming from with this and it's one of the main reasons that Hughes was easily neutralised in the early games (he was the sole carrier). I think Mako provides an excellent extra ball carrying threat, but I don't think that it is suddenly ineffective without Billy and vice versa but that it's simply more effective when they can't be targeted. For instance, Mako + Hughes presents a fairly significant threat and only less effective than Mako + Billy by an amount of Billy - Hughes (if that makes sense).

Put that way, I reckon Mako - Hughes could potentially be more effective than Mako - Billy as Hughes has the added pace and would run better lines off of Mako than Billy does. Not in any way suggesting Hughes is better than Billy, but I'd be interested to see it.

 

[munstermuffin]

Ireland team to play England rumoured

Kearney
Earls
Ringrose
Henshaw
Zebo
Sexton
Murray
Heaslip
O'Brien
Stander
Toner
Ryan
Furlong
Best
McGrath

Scannell
Healy
Ryan
Henderson
O'Mahony
Marmion
Jackson
Payne

McFadden and Conway on stand-by for Earls.

Inspiring

 

[Every Time Ref]

Ireland team to play England rumoured

Kearney
Earls
Ringrose
Henshaw
Zebo
Sexton
Murray
Heaslip
O'Brien
Stander
Toner
Ryan
Furlong
Best
McGrath

Scannell
Healy
Ryan
Henderson
O'Mahony
Marmion
Jackson
Payne

McFadden and Conway on stand-by for Earls.

Inspiring

Are there any changes in that XV?

 

[munstermuffin]

Are there any changes in that XV?

No if Earls is unfit McFadden or Conway start. Other than that just forced change of Payne to 23.

Very very disappointing. And dare I say shows we aren't learning.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Ireland team to play England rumoured

Kearney
Earls
Ringrose
Henshaw
Zebo
Sexton
Murray
Heaslip
O'Brien
Stander
Toner
Ryan
Furlong
Best
McGrath

Scannell
Healy
Ryan
Henderson
O'Mahony
Marmion
Jackson
Payne

McFadden and Conway on stand-by for Earls.

Inspiring

Good to have Payne back in the 23. I didn't expect anything different apart from maybe Payne straight into 13. The changes needed aren't possible right now short of bringing Leavy in to the backrow or parachuting a back three player in with no squad experience. Definitely enough there to beat England if the performance is on the money.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Does seem like a waste of a rare match with nothing significant at stake.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Does seem like a waste of a rare match with nothing significant at stake.

A top seed in the RWC and the difference in prize money between a 5th and 2nd place finish. Nothing to be disappointed at whatsoever.

 

[Every Time Ref]

A top seed in the RWC and the difference in prize money between a 5th and 2nd place finish. Nothing to be disappointed at whatsoever.

OK fair point. But at the same time, there is less at stake than if the championship was live. And in international rugby you don't get a lot of chances to blood youngsters, you have to be brave and go for it. When there's relatively less at stake, like here, seems a good time no?

 

[munstermuffin]

A top seed in the RWC and the difference in prize money between a 5th and 2nd place finish. Nothing to be disappointed at whatsoever.

Alpha even you'd surely admit a change or 2 was needed.

I've feeling we could be hammered. And if we are I do think any criticism will go to coach and deservedly so.

 

[munstermuffin]

OK fair point. But at the same time, there is less at stake than if the championship was live. And in international rugby you don't get a lot of chances to blood youngsters, you have to be brave and go for it. When there's relatively less at stake, like here, seems a good time no?

Not even about blooding youngsters but improving team.
Backrow unbalanced.
Backs are defensively in trouble.
And there no injection of hope.

I hope Ireland win and would be delighted if we win but it'd equally be papering over cracks

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

OK fair point. But at the same time, there is less at stake than if the championship was live. And in international rugby you don't get a lot of chances to blood youngsters, you have to be brave and go for it. When there's relatively less at stake, like here, seems a good time no?

In a year with a Lions tour and three summer tests? I don't see the need in a game against the best team we'll play all year. Schmidt also hasn't been a fan of capping new guys in the 6 nations, five of his 33 new caps have been in the 6 nations so he obviously doesn't see it as a place to blood new players. The England game last year saw Stuart McCloskey get his debut and his form proceeded to dive after a tough day and he's yet play in green since so there's definitely potential negatives to giving young guys baptisms of fire. Schmidt was commended for waiting until Autumn to cap Garry Ringrose despite his seriously impressive form last year too, I don't doubt we'll see one or two more new faces establish themselves this year along with a few guys currently bouncing around the squad, better to give them an international period where they know they're going to be a starter rather than parachute them in for one game when they were never in the original plans.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Alpha even you'd surely admit a change or 2 was needed.

I've feeling we could be hammered. And if we are I do think any criticism will go to coach and deservedly so.

Not even about blooding youngsters but improving team.
Backrow unbalanced.
Backs are defensively in trouble.
And there no injection of hope.

I hope Ireland win and would be delighted if we win but it'd equally be papering over cracks

No, I would have picked pretty much what we have, maybe bring Payne in but that would be seen as a step back too. Change is needed but I don't see where it comes from in the current squad.

I think the backrow being unbalanced is a bit of a fallacy, we're dominating possession and territory which doesn't suggest a misfiring backrow, a 7 would improve it and the only one available is Leavy, Leavy for SOB doens't make sense at this time considering Leavy hasn't had the chance to prove himself at this level.

The problem is slow ball and I'm inclined to put as much blame on Murray and Sexton there, Murray is a slow passer of the ball and always has been, he's improved but really operating at minimum requirements for a 9. Sexton, and Schmidt, are trying too many screens, I don't really understand why because its not used in Leinster because Sexton, Henshaw, Kearney and Ringrose aren't the guys to make it work, none of them play deep enough so its usually resulting in Sexton making way too long a pass that is easy to read for the opposition.

What does 'no injection of hope' mean? Ireland will be relying on a lot more than hope to win this match, the potential is there, the stage is set to send a message after a disappointing week and these guys want to win and know that at home they really should be winning. Schmidt has lost to Clermont, Australia, and New Zealand in Lansedown road and he'll have this side best prepared to keep that list unchanged. He's proven time and again that he's one of the best coaches in world rugby, he got a little bit naive away from home this year and will learn from it but he really relishes the big challenges, this is the fourth biggest challenge in rugby right now behind NZ in NZ, NZ in Dublin and England in Twickenham, expect a huge difference from last week.

 

[munstermuffin]

No, I would have picked pretty much what we have, maybe bring Payne in but that would be seen as a step back too. Change is needed but I don't see where it comes from in the current squad.

I think the backrow being unbalanced is a bit of a fallacy, we're dominating possession and territory which doesn't suggest a misfiring backrow, a 7 would improve it and the only one available is Leavy, Leavy for SOB doens't make sense at this time considering Leavy hasn't had the chance to prove himself at this level.

The problem is slow ball and I'm inclined to put as much blame on Murray and Sexton there, Murray is a slow passer of the ball and always has been, he's improved but really operating at minimum requirements for a 9. Sexton, and Schmidt, are trying too many screens, I don't really understand why because its not used in Leinster because Sexton, Henshaw, Kearney and Ringrose aren't the guys to make it work, none of them play deep enough so its usually resulting in Sexton making way too long a pass that is easy to read for the opposition.

What does 'no injection of hope' mean? Ireland will be relying on a lot more than hope to win this match, the potential is there, the stage is set to send a message after a disappointing week and these guys want to win and know that at home they really should be winning. Schmidt has lost to Clermont, Australia, and New Zealand in Lansedown road and he'll have this side best prepared to keep that list unchanged. He's proven time and again that he's one of the best coaches in world rugby, he got a little bit naive away from home this year and will learn from it but he really relishes the big challenges, this is the fourth biggest challenge in rugby right now behind NZ in NZ, NZ in Dublin and England in Twickenham, expect a huge difference from last week.

Injection of hope meaningba change to reenergise be it O'Mahony in or Payne starting. Leavy is the future 7 and I'd have even been happy if he was in. I'd disagree on his away form as it's always been iffy. Just look at stats. But think if it is a bad bad day he deservedly will be brought to challenge on it.
I think at least 1 change in pack needed to be made and 1 in backs. Like your kind of digging there putting blame on Murray but as I said personally I think Schmidt is putting hell of a lot on line and as Shane Horgan rightfully said in a season we beat New Zealand the international team could ultimately failed this year if we get a beating.

All we've learnt is he's banking his trust in about 19/20 players.
Again he's failed to attempt fix lineout or breakdown issues. And attempt to liven our attack.
If it is a bad beating I'd even say what makes him such a spectacular coach. Everything he's achieved Jones has topped so far. Yes Schmidt is a top coach but French coaches Woodward Jones theres alot that have achieved similar and better.
As I said I hope I'm proven wrong and Ireland win well. But if they don't and issues mentioned were a cause added in with McFadden call during week I'd safely say we've declined over past 6months hugely under Schmidt and 2 years in competition rugby.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Injection of hope meaningba change to reenergise be it O'Mahony in or Payne starting. Leavy is the future 7 and I'd have even been happy if he was in. I'd disagree on his away form as it's always been iffy. Just look at stats. But think if it is a bad bad day he deservedly will be brought to challenge on it.
I think at least 1 change in pack needed to be made and 1 in backs. Like your kind of digging there putting blame on Murray but as I said personally I think Schmidt is putting hell of a lot on line and as Shane Horgan rightfully said in a season we beat New Zealand the international team could ultimately failed this year if we get a beating.

All we've learnt is he's banking his trust in about 19/20 players.
Again he's failed to attempt fix lineout or breakdown issues. And attempt to liven our attack.
If it is a bad beating I'd even say what makes him such a spectacular coach. Everything he's achieved Jones has topped so far. Yes Schmidt is a top coach but French coaches Woodward Jones theres alot that have achieved similar and better.
As I said I hope I'm proven wrong and Ireland win well. But if they don't and issues mentioned were a cause added in with McFadden call during week I'd safely say we've declined over past 6months hugely under Schmidt and 2 years in competition rugby.

Where do you fit POM in though? He's not a 7 nor is he an improvement on CJ or Heaslip.
What are the breakdown issues? We're dominating possession.
What makes Schmidt spectacular? His record... 2 HEC's, a pro 12 and a challenge cup in 3 seasons with Leinster. Back to back 6 nations ***les, Ireland's first win in South Africa, Ireland's first win against NZ, he's never failed to achieve success in his 6 years here and I think he'll add bringing Ireland to a RWC as 1st seeds for the 1st time.
How have we declined in 6 months? We've beaten NZ, Aus and France in those 6 months, his predecessor had less number of wins over those three teams in three and a half years.
The coaching comparisons aren't fair either, compare the resources, Jones wouldn't be doing as well if he was here and Schmidt wouldn't be doing as well in England, I think both unions currently have the best guys for the job.
If I'm digging going after Murray with what I've said there you're more than halfway to China with these attempts of criticising Schmidt. D'Arcy had it right, if worded badly, when he said "Great teams learn how to turn defeats into motivation in order to win tournaments. Ireland are not the All Blacks so recent results should not be viewed as a crisis. Losing in Murrayfield, while very disappointing, and again in Cardiff merely reinforced the fact that we punch well above our weight in international rugby." We may have more depth than Scotland and Wales but we can only play 23 players so while they're not hounded by injuries the class isn't here to expect to beat them away from home.

We're criticising a man here for having a poor international period off the back of a successful one, with the exception of 2009 Kidney never managed to string two together (there's an argument to be made he was wholly unsuccessful after 2009 with the exception of a win over Australia), Eos managed it once with the 2006 EOYT and 2007 6n, so the goalposts are really being moved to attack Schmidt, ironically due to the unprecedented success he's brought us. Anyway I'm done defending him, I'm firmly of the opinion that Schmidt only deserves criticism if no growth is seen over the next three international windows, I'm not budging and there's **** all chance of it happening anyway.

 

[munstermuffin]

Where do you fit POM in though? He's not a 7 nor is he an improvement on CJ or Heaslip.
What are the breakdown issues? We're dominating possession.
What makes Schmidt spectacular? His record... 2 HEC's, a pro 12 and a challenge cup in 3 seasons with Leinster. Back to back 6 nations ***les, Ireland's first win in South Africa, Ireland's first win against NZ, he's never failed to achieve success in his 6 years here and I think he'll add bringing Ireland to a RWC as 1st seeds for the 1st time.
How have we declined in 6 months? We've beaten NZ, Aus and France in those 6 months, his predecessor had less number of wins over those three teams in three and a half years.
The coaching comparisons aren't fair either, compare the resources, Jones wouldn't be doing as well if he was here and Schmidt wouldn't be doing as well in England, I think both unions currently have the best guys for the job.
If I'm digging going after Murray with what I've said there you're more than halfway to China with these attempts of criticising Schmidt. D'Arcy had it right, if worded badly, when he said "Great teams learn how to turn defeats into motivation in order to win tournaments. Ireland are not the All Blacks so recent results should not be viewed as a crisis. Losing in Murrayfield, while very disappointing, and again in Cardiff merely reinforced the fact that we punch well above our weight in international rugby." We may have more depth than Scotland and Wales but we can only play 23 players so while they're not hounded by injuries the class isn't here to expect to beat them away from home.

We're criticising a man here for having a poor international period off the back of a successful one, with the exception of 2009 Kidney never managed to string two together (there's an argument to be made he was wholly unsuccessful after 2009 with the exception of a win over Australia), Eos managed it once with the 2006 EOYT and 2007 6n, so the goalposts are really being moved to attack Schmidt, ironically due to the unprecedented success he's brought us. Anyway I'm done defending him, I'm firmly of the opinion that Schmidt only deserves criticism if no growth is seen over the next three international windows, I'm not budging and there's **** all chance of it happening anyway.

On POM. I'd look at balance and say it's hurting us hugely at breakdown and lineout. So I'd bite bullit and say drop Heaslip or Stander. Let them be the impact. We aren't winning any turnovers at breakdown or lineout.
But on good coaches. I'm talking about international time. Forget his coach career. I accept that is top but as Ireland coach. Back to back 6Natuons is good but no slam. So while it's good it's not a completely out there achievement. Of course it deserves credit I don't discount that. First win in SA, was great but I'm still torn as SA were awful. New Zealand 100% credit.
You say 6 years no success I'd say RWC and last 2 years 6 Nations were failure.
How have we declined in last 6months?
When we played in AIs we attacked a bit more played better rugby. Played guys on form, some forced through injury now we're playing poor brand, leaking tries and certainly not picking on form. And a loosing record overall over quite a few top teams. Like no point getting in to a Schmidt v Kidney v Eddie.
But Schmidt never managed to do full calendar year unbeaten, do a slam, win in Twickenham, win a Triple Crown.
I'm viewing last 3 tournaments as poor and we aren't learning to turn defeats in to wins in tournaments.
On Murray bit maybe I read comments wrong and hold hands up there.
I'm not critical of Schmidt for the poor form more so for not doing things to change it.
McFadden is on stand by for Saturday.
Despite form wingers in all provinces.
His lack of trust in bench was poor.
The selection of off form guys because they done in x amount of months ago.

And as I said this isn't saying Schmidt is a bad coach he's achieved but I just asked as International the record isn't that standout in comparison to other world rugby coaches.
As I said earlier I'm not trying to change any opinion just the devate is valid. We've made no progress in competitive rugby over past 2 years and well I stand by also if we are beaten and its a case of issues I said and alot others identified then the coach rightfully should be grilled

 

[Reiser99]

I think the biggest problem with the NH has been consistency and finding ways to win. When the NH plays the SH there is the simple expectation that the SH will win. They know how to win games, even when playing badly. (SA's form being an exception here). This for me has been the big difference between England and the rest of the NH. We haven't played much better if at all except against Scotland, but we've won games. EJ has bought that mentality to side. However it is still lacking for the rest of the NH. None of the other teams are bad, their all very good with great moments, but they can't win consistently and have that self-belief that they will win regardless.

 

[tsof]

I think the biggest problem with the NH has been consistency and finding ways to win. When the NH plays the SH there is the simple expectation that the SH will win. They know how to win games, even when playing badly. (SA's form being an exception here). This for me has been the big difference between England and the rest of the NH. We haven't played much better if at all except against Scotland, but we've won games. EJ has bought that mentality to side. However it is still lacking for the rest of the NH. None of the other teams are bad, their all very good with great moments, but they can't win consistently and have that self-belief that they will win regardless.

I think you're spot on the money there. Nailed it. I would put it down to the fact that Eddie has empowered the players to think of their feet and to change tactics to what they see in front of them. You get the impression with both Wales and Ireland that they have a set game plan that they stick to rigidly, irrespective of what's happening on the field.