[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 5: Ireland vs England (18/03/2017)

[DozeyPillock]

This is just it, and that's despite making it clear he sees him as 'an extra centre' and not a long term wing or fullback.

England - the only team with two number 5's, two fly halves, and three centres

 

[ALJ]

England - the only team with two number 5's, two fly halves, and three centres

and yet...

 

[Jockstap]

It's simple from an Ireland point of view, fix the lineout and we'll win. Fail to do that and the same thing that happened in the Scots/Welsh games will happen in Dublin.

 

[ALJ]

Re bringing players in, it really shouldn't be difficult via the bench these days. 10 mins here, 20 there. The ABs were the model - the 2015 side was uber experienced, yet there were players with 20 or 30 caps or more waiting to take over. You can experiment through the bench, but a starting shirt should only change hands if someone's made a compelling case that they're better. Although you need to avoid teams getting old together, experience and cohesion counts.

I don't disagree in principle but I would probably make a couple of counters:
1. The bench is not what it was - you hear it often enough that it's a team of 23 and anyone coming off the bench is expected to make a real contribution rather than just settle in. I take your point though that as a sub is really the best way to bring someone into the side.
2. The ABs are the poster child for introducing players off the bench to give them experience. But I reckon their dominance in recent years is what's enabled them to take such a robust approach to this. I'm not saying that players coming on get a free ride, far from it, but it's far less risky taking off McCaw (for example) to give others experience when you're 20 points up and in control.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Hahaha, that Irish team shows why it's such an absolute waste to argue about rumoured teams.

Also can we stop the whole 'he only capped players because others were injured' ****e? So? He still capped them usually with the option of picking someone else. It's not as if it doesn't happen to other teams, he's still capped more than most and you don't usually know for certain what the plan was anyway! Others may also have been capped if people were fit, it's much easier to slot people into a well functioning machine than a spluttering one. Possible debutants also might get injured at the wrong time. There's too many factors for anyone on the outside to really know what's going on, all we know is that players were capped and we shouldn't really be trying to qualify that to suit our agendas one way or the other.

Criticising a guy for only capping players through injury is basically criticising someone for picking their best players!

Nice team, lineout could be dodge though.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

Murray has been ruled out. That could significantly swing the tie if Ireland are looking to implement their kick chase.

 

[Groundhog]

Criticising a guy for only capping players through injury is basically criticising someone for picking their best players!

Nice team, lineout could be dodge though.

Cannae seeing the lineout being reliable this weekend. Should have scrum parity, but the lineout could be ugly as the English have so many jumping options and Ryan isn't exactly the tower Toner is. That said we through way too predictably to Toner which was part of our problem last week so some variety could help.

 

[mosfeldt]

^ "If"... As Groundhog pointed out we are going to see what a different Ireland this weekend. Not radically different, our line-out will still be muck, but different. I'm excited.

 

[corny]

Didn't see Toner getting the hook. I think its a nod to the English power around the breakdown and not a result of the line out issues. Big Dev does the work but he's not as powerful as Henderson.

Payne will do well but thinking he's the saviour is wide of the mark. Kearney, despite getting injured in almost every game, has consistently been our most dangerous back three player. Yes i did say that and yes it is true. He's carried with far more threat than Zebo and Earls. Maybe an extra pair of hands will make a difference but i doubt its game changing on its own.

By hook for by crook, i'm glad there are 3 new faces. Shame one of them wasn't in the back row but i still think a better collective performance is the key to winning this.

 

[Groundhog]

Didn't see Toner getting the hook. I think its a nod to the English power around the breakdown and not a result of the line out issues. Big Dev does the work but he's not as powerful as Henderson.

Payne will do well but thinking he's the saviour is wide of the mark. Kearney, despite getting injured in almost every game, has consistently been our most dangerous back three player. Yes i did say that and yes it is true. He's carried with far more threat than Zebo and Earls. Maybe an extra pair of hands will make a difference but i doubt its game changing on its own.

By hook for by crook, i'm glad there are 3 new faces. Shame one of them wasn't in the back row but i still think a better collective performance is the key to winning this.

Except he ain't though statistically or otherwise, and even the most extreme of Kearney fans wouldn't call him an attacking threat. 14 runs for 36 metres against Wales? Danger zone. Meanwhile Earls got 62 off 9 carries and Zebo had 106 off 16. If by dangerous you mean a danger to his own health, then I'd agree. Kearney has been great for us over the years but there was no stage in his career where he hasn't been a 'big ****ing forward' seeking missile on his kick returns.

 

[munstermuffin]

Didn't see Toner getting the hook. I think its a nod to the English power around the breakdown and not a result of the line out issues. Big Dev does the work but he's not as powerful as Henderson.

Payne will do well but thinking he's the saviour is wide of the mark. Kearney, despite getting injured in almost every game, has consistently been our most dangerous back three player. Yes i did say that and yes it is true. He's carried with far more threat than Zebo and Earls. Maybe an extra pair of hands will make a difference but i doubt its game changing on its own.

By hook for by crook, i'm glad there are 3 new faces. Shame one of them wasn't in the back row but i still think a better collective performance is the key to winning this.

I'd disagree and say Kearney had to go. I'd say Earls has been by far our best back 3 guy. But none have looked amazing. But gameplab doesn't fully allow. I'm in agreement in that suprised no change in backrow but happy theres change

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Except he ain't though statistically or otherwise, and even the most extreme of Kearney fans wouldn't call him an attacking threat. 14 runs for 36 metres against Wales? Danger zone. Meanwhile Earls got 62 off 9 carries and Zebo had 106 off 16. If by dangerous you mean a danger to his own health, then I'd agree. Kearney has been great for us over the years but there was no stage in his career where he hasn't been a 'big ****ing forward' seeking missile on his kick returns.

Kick chase. Not being given the ball on an overlap and continuing to put blinkers on until you get tackled will affect stats too. RK has definitely been our best back three player. Payne is an improvement so no complaints but inprovement is needed the wings after this game.

 

[dunney77]

I would have been happier had POM been put in at 6 and Stander moved to 8 - purely from a line out perspective and I think you need that grit he brings in this type of game.

Huge concern for this game is that England love scoring in the outside channels, where we are frankly awful at defending.

Still, I do feel we will see a Chicago level of intensity - it is a big achievement to win in Dublin for any team.

Need to really come at them in the first 20 minutes rather than the other way round (as has been the case for much of this 6N).

 

[big ginger 8]

Kearney has been good and his attacking threat isn't fully told through stats given they don't have metres run for a Garreyowen.

Still I'm excited to see what difference Payne's playmaking can bring.

 

[dunney77]

Marmian allows us to play with serious tempo - I think we're going gun ho

 

[Groundhog]

Kick chase. Not being given the ball on an overlap and continuing to put blinkers on until you get tackled will affect stats too. RK has definitely been our best back three player. Payne is an improvement so no complaints but inprovement is needed the wings after this game.

In what way has he been dangerous? Zebo and Earls being slammed for their boo boos, but Kearney who once again made half his tackles and had no tangible positive effect on this team, is still defended. Where was his contribution to attack? I can't see it. He had a very nice blue patch against Scotland, but that aside he's done little. I'll agree the wings got turned over too much, but that can partially be attributed to the fact our backrow had no answer for Wales at times. And by the way not too relevant but Zebo tackled well last day. Narrative about him having a bad game is FAKE NEWS. Earls definitely had some bad points and overall not his finest game but to say he's not a threat is silly. I don't mind criticism of the wings but when it's coupled with blind Kearney defense it's just silly. No one doubts his kick chase and effort or strength, but this tournament was his death knoll for this team.
Anyway I suppose the point is moot as we all probably agree that Payne is better as he can actually read and unlock a defence, brings players into the game around him, is wonderfully skilled and a defensive organiser.

 

[corny]

Except he ain't though statistically or otherwise, and even the most extreme of Kearney fans wouldn't call him an attacking threat. 14 runs for 36 metres against Wales? Danger zone. Meanwhile Earls got 62 off 9 carries and Zebo had 106 off 16. If by dangerous you mean a danger to his own health, then I'd agree. Kearney has been great for us over the years but there was no stage in his career where he hasn't been a 'big ****ing forward' seeking missile on his kick returns.

Lies, damn lies and statistics. All i can say is i remember Kearney stepping a load of Scottish lads in Murrayfield and stepping a few NZ'ers in Chicago. If i had a better memory or was more research inclined i'd find you more examples i'm sure. You remember anything from Zebo or Earls recently with ball in hand?

Its fashionable to blame Kearney. Sure i've done it myself in the past.

 

[Groundhog]

Lies, damn lies and statistics. All i can say is i remember Kearney stepping a load of Scottish lads in Murrayfield and stepping a few NZ'ers in Chicago. If i had a better memory or was more research inclined i'd find you more examples i'm sure. You remember anything from Zebo or Earls recently with ball in hand?

Its fashionable to blame Kearney. Sure i've done it myself in the past.

I did tip my hat to some of his play in Scotland and he was outstanding against New Zealand, but he's looked so behind the pace this tournament. It may be fashionable to bash Kearney but that's always been the case with the two fine young stout drinking Munster men too.
I have no ill will towards Kearney and have loved what a complete prick he could be to other teams over the years, but he's not getting involved in the play at all this year. He's essentially being picked for experience, and the kick chase which in my opinion is a waste of what should be an attacking weapon on the ground as well as the air. I know it's a useless comparison in terms of like for like players, but look how much a guy like Hogg looks to get his hands on the ball for Scotland, always looking to enter the line and bring impact. Kearney was very good in our gameplan, but that gameplan has been figured out at this stage, and with it Kearney will have to be put out to pasture next season too leaving me with happy memories like this.

And examples of Zebo and Earls making good ground and showing feet? There's plenty of them. Like you I'm in absolutely no way bothered to go over our games this six nations, but I've been watching them merk opposition all year for Munster, which granted is a different level, but they do without doubt constantly try to use their feet as a back three player should (Zebo sometimes to a frustrating extent as he loses speed in conact). Listen I accept neither have not looked Lions good this six nations, but they bring edge if used for things other than auxillary back rows and kick chasers.

 

[munstermuffin]

Lies, damn lies and statistics. All i can say is i remember Kearney stepping a load of Scottish lads in Murrayfield and stepping a few NZ'ers in Chicago. If i had a better memory or was more research inclined i'd find you more examples i'm sure. You remember anything from Zebo or Earls recently with ball in hand?

Its fashionable to blame Kearney. Sure i've done it myself in the past.

Just on it yea I remember Earls doing a nice bit with ball in hand. He's only 1 who has looked good of 3 and his stats back that. I'm not slating Kearney but he's nowhere near been our best. Not worst either as Zebo has had good tournament

 

[Groundhog]

Me and Muff trying to put an argument together