[2017 Rugby Championship] Round 2: Argentina v South Africa (26/08/2017)

[TRF_heineken]

Venue: Estadio Padre Ernesto Martearena, Salta​

Time: 21:40 CAT (SA, GMT+2)​

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

This should be a bigger test. I was surprised by the scoreline at PE. I really didn't expect a win by more than 10 or less.

There is still a lot of room for improvement as well. Everything considered I am happy enough for the team to go ahead as is and have players join the squad piecemeal rather than en masse. I'm still calling for Rhule to get cut in favor of Lleyds or Combrinck, Lleyds being my preference. He is just not interested in making any sort of tackle actually bac tracking as opposition run at him. In chasing down Landajo he should've backed his pace for the ball rather than a weak attempt at body blocking Landajo himself. Had his weak challenge on Landajo been successful we'd probably have seen yellow and a penalty try and rightly so. He has pace and is a decent finisher but its just frustrating that we have to accept his glaring weaknesses whilst there are more complete players playing Currie Cup.

OnCronje being injured I see Vermaak has been called up. That begs the question who will get into the match day squad. If you take the assumed status quo ITO call up and game time for the Bokke it reads Hougaard > Paige > Vermaak. My own feeling is it should read Vermaak > Hougaard > Paige. My Stormers bias?

 

[TRF_heineken]

This should be a bigger test. I was surprised by the scoreline at PE. I really didn't expect a win by more than 10 or less.

There is still a lot of room for improvement as well. Everything considered I am happy enough for the team to go ahead as is and have players join the squad piecemeal rather than en masse. I'm still calling for Rhule to get cut in favor of Lleyds or Combrinck, Lleyds being my preference. He is just not interested in making any sort of tackle actually bac tracking as opposition run at him. In chasing down Landajo he should've backed his pace for the ball rather than a weak attempt at body blocking Landajo himself. Had his weak challenge on Landajo been successful we'd probably have seen yellow and a penalty try and rightly so. He has pace and is a decent finisher but its just frustrating that we have to accept his glaring weaknesses whilst there are more complete players playing Currie Cup.

OnCronje being injured I see Vermaak has been called up. That begs the question who will get into the match day squad. If you take the assumed status quo ITO call up and game time for the Bokke it reads Hougaard > Paige > Vermaak. My own feeling is it should read Vermaak > Hougaard > Paige. My Stormers bias?

Little bit of Stormers Bias.

I think we'll stick with the status quo of Hougaard to start and Paige on the bench with Vermaak as cover if one of them gets injured before the test.

I'm wondering how many changes (if any) apart from Cronje, will happen for this test? I could see AC keeping the team as is again, and try to build on the consistency and get the combinations to work better than last weekend.

 

[unrated]

This should be a bigger test. I was surprised by the scoreline at PE. I really didn't expect a win by more than 10 or less.

There is still a lot of room for improvement as well. Everything considered I am happy enough for the team to go ahead as is and have players join the squad piecemeal rather than en masse. I'm still calling for Rhule to get cut in favor of Lleyds or Combrinck, Lleyds being my preference. He is just not interested in making any sort of tackle actually bac tracking as opposition run at him. In chasing down Landajo he should've backed his pace for the ball rather than a weak attempt at body blocking Landajo himself. Had his weak challenge on Landajo been successful we'd probably have seen yellow and a penalty try and rightly so. He has pace and is a decent finisher but its just frustrating that we have to accept his glaring weaknesses whilst there are more complete players playing Currie Cup.

OnCronje being injured I see Vermaak has been called up. That begs the question who will get into the match day squad. If you take the assumed status quo ITO call up and game time for the Bokke it reads Hougaard > Paige > Vermaak. My own feeling is it should read Vermaak > Hougaard > Paige. My Stormers bias?

Yea I think it's Stormers bias. Vermaak is not even half the player Reinach is.
It should now be .
1.Hougaard
2.Reinach
3. That Cheetahs scrummy
4.Vermaak
5. Paige

 

[TRF_heineken]

Yea I think it's Stormers bias. Vermaak is not even half the player Reinach is.
It should now be .
1.Hougaard
2.Reinach
3. That Cheetahs scrummy
4.Vermaak
5. Paige

haha!

I like Shaun Venter, but I'll even put Piet van Zyl ahead of Paige. Piet has been awesome for the Blue Bulls in the Currie Cup.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Yea I think it's Stormers bias. Vermaak is not even half the player Reinach is.
It should now be .
1.Hougaard
2.Reinach
3. That Cheetahs scrummy
4.Vermaak
5. Paige

Haha, what a funny thing bias is. Me, I would put all of De Klerk, Van Zyl, Duvenhage and Vermaak ahead of Reinach who only had sniping runs and doesn't seem to have even that any more.

Its actually sad we are in a position where none of us can agree on who is actually our best scrumhalf. Sure, we have a ton of decent ones but I don't think any one of them would be pushing for top 10 in the world.

 

[George Ford]

haha!

I like Shaun Venter, but I'll even put Piet van Zyl ahead of Paige. Piet has been awesome for the Blue Bulls in the Currie Cup.

IMO Piet Van Zyl should be behind Cronje. Reinach WAS a top quality 9 few seasons ago, not anymore though. But in Van Zyl I see the same potential or even more, given he plays in a better team.

3rd test against the French showed me Hougaard is not the ideal starting halfback. Are we seeing another Pienaar situation HM had when there were no credible 9s to call on? I'll say it again, how Paige is selected over Van Zyl when the latter 1st choice at their union baffles me.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Rhule stripped a ball by himself and, like me, probably expected Landajo to try and collect the ball (which would allow a tackle) rather than risk a kick. He showed plenty in attack and defensively the Boks have conceded an average of 15 points in the past four tests.

Personally due to my prejudices in American football (where glorified sprinters have replaced real wide receivers) I don't like lightweight sprint merchants on the wing. But Rhule showed plenty in Kolisi's try to show he can make the difficult transition from playing centre in an abject Cheetahs defence to being an international wing. Clearly the Stormers and AC have seen something in him.

The Bok gameplan was much better at involving the wingers this time, but constant front foot ball created by the inferiority of the Puma pack was a massive factor in that. I don't see that changing just because are playing on the other side of the Atlantic.

The Pumas played sublime rugby for their two tries, but look at how hard the Boks defence made them work to get those tries.

The Pumas are much better with de la Fuente at 12 and Hernandez as backup FH. Their 7 (Levani) caught the eye too and they did well with the very limited quick ball they got. But man they need to find some muscle in the pack for 2019.

Losing the Lions halfback combination will be an issue but I'm going for Boks by 13.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

The thing is more than half those points SA let in is directly a result of having Rhule at 14. As for his ability on attack its not any more than Lleyds can offer in addition to a kicking option and solid defense. If Lleyd's exploits n SR isn't enough watch his exploits in this CC match highlights section even if it doesn't tell the whole story;



And that whilst the Lions had the well, Lion's share of posession. WP had to run it from deep or off the turn over as we had no scrum or line out to speak of.

 

[Durbanite]

I don't think Reinach is eligible for selection anymore, or at least not for much longer. Can we at least agree that Hougaard should stay as our option off the bench rather than become a starter?

One thing I didn't see mentioned enough was the boks' improved handling. Soft hands, less errors and more accurate compared to jittery handling last year, many of the scrums at first were due to Arg errors. I think that they've been practicing but Coetzee is putting emphasis on pairing starting players ie: Lions half back pairing, bulls centre pairing, sharks props etc and the familiarity is paying dividends imo.

Rhule had a great game compared to what I was expecting, but I still think that he will be a defensive liability against Aus and NZ when they start purposefully targeting his channel with hard and fast runners. Arg started to kick onto him toward the latter stages of the game and he was putting Coetzee under a bit of pressure by being a bit sluggish on the pass, where as Crombrinck or Mvovo would've been able to easily clear the ball themselves.

The Pumas are already channeling their last win at Salta and that crowd can make you feel like the world is against you when things go wrong so I expect them to come prepared to win. This is to be the first real test of this team since last year and as @George Ford pointed out in the other match thread AC has yet to win away from home. Travel might be a slight factor seeing as the boks leave on Wednesday I believe, which is a bit late imo.

I rate Garces over Poite and think he has a better idea on the scrums/breakdown. I think if the game gets close the boks should still edge it. It would freak me out if we get another 37 - 1x but I think this will be the combo breaker.

 

[George Ford]

... I rate Garces over Poite and think he has a better idea on the scrums/breakdown. I think if the game gets close the boks should still edge it. It would freak me out if we get another 37 - 1x but I think this will be the combo breaker.

Jerome Garce already been appointed?

 

[Durbanite]

Jerome Garce already been appointed?

My mistake, it's Pascal Gauzere

Refereeing schedule for 2017 Rugby Championship:
August 19
Australia v NZ- Wayne Barnes (England)
SA v Argentina - Romain Poite (France)
August 26
NZ v Australia - Jerome Garces (France)
Argentina v SA - Pascal Gauzere (France)
September 9
NZ v Argentina - Angus Gardner (Australia)
Australia v SA - Glen Jackson (NZ)
September 16
Australia v Argentina - John Lacey (Ireland)
NZ v SA - Nigel Owens (Wales)
September 30
SA v Australia - Ben O'Keeffe (NZ)
Argentina v NZ - Jaco Peyper (SA)
October 7
SA v NZ - Jerome Garces (France)
Argetnina v Australia - Mathieu Raynal (France)

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

On the scrum halves. Lets put it like this; I'd be feeling uncomfortable if Hougaard were to start. He is a 9 for when the game opens up and legs are tired. Not for feeling each other out and early kicking exchanges looking for an upper hand tactically and looking for position. I'll leave it at that.

As added motivation; if we can manage to get another winning score margin of 15+ we will move back into 3rd on the rankings ahead of Ireland (for what its worth). England and NZ are a ways off though. We'd need to get results against them in order to go any than #3 again.

 

[TRF_heineken]

On the scrum halves. Lets put it like this; I'd be feeling uncomfortable if Hougaard were to start. He is a 9 for when the game opens up and legs are tired. Not for feeling each other out and early kicking exchanges looking for an upper hand tactically and looking for position. I'll leave it at that.

As added motivation; if we can manage to get another winning score margin of 15+ we will move back into 3rd on the rankings ahead of Ireland (for what its worth). England and NZ are a ways off though. We'd need to get results against them in order to go any than #3 again.

I have to disagree. Since AC took over, Hougie had to play from the bench every time. First he was Faf's understudy and now Cronje's. The 3rd test against France was his first start at 9 for the Bokke since 2014! And he didn't look good because of Jantjies' poor performance.

Since Hougie has been at Worcestor, he has had only 1 start fot the bokke, I think his game has evolved since he went North, and hasn't had the chance to show us what he can do...

 

[SomeOke]

Surprising absolutely no-one I agree with Stormers about our 9 options.

I think Hougie is a good player, but a poor decision maker which is quite an important aspect of a scrum-halfs game, he usually ends up costing us when he starts. Much more effective when he has 20 minutes at the end of the game to have a bit of a run.

Paige is a decent option but doesn't offer anything special, Vermaak is similar but has a slightly better support running game in terms of snipes and running support lines.

I don't think Reinach has played good rugby since he first broke out. For some reason he's decided to be a box-kicking scrumhalf which doesn't fit his skill set at all.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I have to disagree. Since AC took over, Hougie had to play from the bench every time. First he was Faf's understudy and now Cronje's. The 3rd test against France was his first start at 9 for the Bokke since 2014! And he didn't look good because of Jantjies' poor performance.

Since Hougie has been at Worcestor, he has had only 1 start fot the bokke, I think his game has evolved since he went North, and hasn't had the chance to show us what he can do...

Or did Jantjies have a poor game because it was Hougie starting on his inside? *dramatic sound effect*

Afterall, 9 comes before 10.

Surprising absolutely no-one I agree with Stormers about our 9 options.

I think Hougie is a good player, but a poor decision maker which is quite an important aspect of a scrum-halfs game, he usually ends up costing us when he starts. Much more effective when he has 20 minutes at the end of the game to have a bit of a run.

Paige is a decent option but doesn't offer anything special, Vermaak is similar but has a slightly better support running game in terms of snipes and running support lines.

I don't think Reinach has played good rugby since he first broke out. For some reason he's decided to be a box-kicking scrumhalf which doesn't fit his skill set at all.

That about sums it up for me too.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Or did Jantjies have a poor game because it was Hougie starting on his inside? *dramatic sound effect*

Afterall, 9 comes before 10.

Well, in the previous 2 tests he did the same mistakes as in the third. But yeah, you could see that the communication between them wasn't up to par. But then again we've seen how good Hougie can be when he and Morne Steyn partnered up.

All I'm saying is that we're being overly harsh on Hougie. And with that said, I can't see any other scrumhalf at the moment doing a better job than him. It's actually odd that we've hit this slump in the Scrumhalf position. We had it once before the arrival of Fourie Du Preez and after Joost van der Westhuizen and Werner Swanepoel were our scrummies. Remember Bolla Conradie and Ricky Januarie??

I think it's just one of those cycles we have, and then we'll unearth another World Class Scrumhalf...

 

[mdaclarke]

I'm surprised a lot of people don't rate Hougaard. He is one the best players in the premiership. I don't know if that says more about the standard of the premiership than about Hougaard!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'm surprised a lot of people don't rate Hougaard. He is one the best players in the premiership. I don't know if that says more about the standard of the premiership than about Hougaard!

I wouldn't know about the standard of the Premiership and wouldn't think it low if you look at where England are sitting (pretty).

For me - and it was the same thing when it was Pienaar making the cameo's- its mainly a question of slow service/clearance from the ruck. First and foremost that is a scrummy's core role. It might be that its less important in European competitions. I have a few ideas why that might be but don't want to derail this thread. With Hougaard specifically I question his rugby IQ if I can use that phrase. We've just seen sooo many brain farts in so many games and he is a senior player. How many chances does one get? Was it Wales last year he took that quick tap? Anyway, his slow service, poor decision making and lack of kicking accuracy means Jantjies will be under more pressure than usual and if history tells us anything you don't want Jantjies under pressure. He can be fantastic when his 9 takes care of him and the forwards are getting the upper hand. The latter isn't always a given so IMO control what you can control and provide Jantjies with a 9 with good service and tactical nous. If you don't have that give him the closest you have to it. IMO Paige isn't too far off in that regard and though I wouldn't rate him our best 9 or even our best 9 in the squad I'd have him starting ahead of Hougaard though I'd prefer Vermaak to start with Hougaard off the bench if those are the three options available to us.

 

[SomeOke]

I'm surprised a lot of people don't rate Hougaard. He is one the best players in the premiership. I don't know if that says more about the standard of the premiership than about Hougaard!

He might just have the yips honestly, ever since he completely cost that game agaisnt Wales where he took the quick tap and then kicked it out on the full I've been wary of him. When he started the third test I was ready to forgive him, but again he didn't take his opportunity.

At this stage I just think we need one calm head between our 9 and 10. Jantjies is also prone to spazzing out under pressure, so I'd prefer a calmer option at 9 ala Cronje/Vermaak/Paige I do "rate" Hougard in that I think he's got a lot of raw ability, but one also needs a brain to play 9 effectively.

Edit: Pretty much ninja'd by Stormer again.