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[2017 Rugby Championship] Round 3: Australia v South Africa (09/09/2017)

I think your view is completely ignorant of the 2 opportunities that went a miss (Serfontein, Kriel).

Also - It's not as if the Wallabies weren't good for the contest. There was a period in the 1st half where the Wallabies went about 15 phases starting from their own half and into the Boks 22 before half time. It's here where EJ failed to relieve pressure given the opportunity and Andries Coetzee didn't do so well on that front either.

There is no telling what the coaches' instructions are, but what is clear is that the Boks place a lot of emphasis on the forwards to the job and providing the platform. No doubt this has been the drive of the Boks whole season and it was a frustrating 1st half for them with a few lineout errors and conceding silly penalties, not getting their execution right, etc. but in the 2nd half they made those things right and got the momentum going, but failed to capitalize on the opportunities created.

That and EJ's temperament (for which a coach can't be blamed) letting the team down.

I do concur that maybe AC & co should back the backline more with set moves, however, other than EJ, neither of Serf, Kriel or Coetzee are natural playmakers. While Serfontein is having a great season with the Boks, u can't but help think his defensive organization is more suited for 13. At the same time Kriel for me isn't playing all that bad either. This is where I feel RjvR would now make an ideal partnership with Serf and moving Kriel to 15, whilst at the same time bring in Lleyds at 14. Move Rhule to 11.

Yeah. We had a couple of line breaks. But it wasn't the doing of Elton that lead to the line breaks, instead it was other guys who initiated the break. I really can't understand why people are still praising EJ. Are we watching different games?? He is the main person to relieve pressure and give us a territorial advantage, but now you guys are saying that it's AC's fault?? AC didn't miss the kicks into touch, or kicked the ball straight down Folau's throat. No that was all EJ. if he kicked a little shorter and made sure of finding touch, we wouldn't have been in half of the precarious positions we found ourselves in.

EJ was the main contributor of putting us under pressure...
 
Yeah. We had a couple of line breaks. But it wasn't the doing of Elton that lead to the line breaks, instead it was other guys who initiated the break. I really can't understand why people are still praising EJ. Are we watching different games?? He is the main person to relieve pressure and give us a territorial advantage, but now you guys are saying that it's AC's fault?? AC didn't miss the kicks into touch, or kicked the ball straight down Folau's throat. No that was all EJ. if he kicked a little shorter and made sure of finding touch, we wouldn't have been in half of the precarious positions we found ourselves in.

EJ was the main contributor of putting us under pressure...
I'm not defending EJ I'm saying EJ is a poor player when forced to play a territorial game. A territorial game we probably should be playing, therefore I blame AC more than Elton. We know Elton can play and facilitate good rugby, just not the kind of rugby we were trying to play.

Not trying to wind you up Heineken and you seem to be getting a little cross with me but while Elton didn't play great (especially in the first half) I genuinely feel he wasn't our biggest problem.

Coetzee was actually worse for me.
 
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Yes I've made assumptions on the gameplan from the coach's side but my reasoning is simple enough to understand, we know EJ is a finnicky 10, and that his recent run of form has a lot to do with the Lions and their style of running the ball etc. When the idea to focus on tactical kicking against Aus was proposed, surely they should've realised EJ might not be ready to sit back in the pocket and run the game with his boot after his few shakey performances, at least not as well as how he has been playing when the boks were a bit more direct on attack and retaining ball.

My point is, they could've added in someone in the backline to aid him with the tactical game, or they could've played a 10 more suited to tactical rugby otherwise they could've considered just playing the way they played him against the French or the Argentinians. It seems to me they chose the latter option in the second half to a degree, once they realised EJ could not live up to the task and opportunity arose for line breaks at the base etc.

I said he had a good game defensively and with ball in hand, he was woeful with the boot and I think it's hilarious he was playing a tactical game on top of his bad form, he could've won us the game had he not missed posts and touch but, I think we also would've won the game despite his errors if we played with some ball in hand from the start, it's a tough one because imo we had no viable 10 to replace him coming into this game (looking back AC wouldn't have been justified dropping EJ or playing Pollard so soon, but then again I assumed a ball in hand approach was the order of the day).

My question to you @TRF_heineken is if not Elton than who? For both this game and the next? and do you think he can execute a territorial/tactical game? We have to play NZ next week and I reckon if EJ plays this same style of rugga, with the same gameplan, we will have damaged our chances before the whistle blows like this game, perhaps not, but if the coaching staff insist on a constant territorial/tactical kicking game against the ABs, imo, Elton is not the man for the job, but who is then?

I'm saying if Elton plays against the Kiwis it should be where he is stronger, they can still play him if they give the tactical job to someone more accurate with the boot. Criticizing Elton for his bad kicking and then expect him to change to a "territorial/tactical" flyhalf for the ABs seems like madness to me, I don't have faith he will be able to handle a Kiwi aerial onslaught if he has a tactical directive hanging over his head, and it'll only be worse if our back 3 don't shape up

Perhaps it's simply that you guys didn't see this game as a failed attempt to play a territory/tactical kicking game in which case it makes a lot of sense that you're focusing on Elton's mistakes rather than a failure of game plan which is fair enough but I think the evidence speaks for itself.

I just fear we will get sucked back into this idea that you can't run your own ball against the top teams and that we're going to forget the work everyone is putting into developing a solid ball in hand game. I don't think it too absurd to question whether the coach had a lapse of faith, considering how it has hurt the boks in the past (choosing "experienced" players that are not on form or not allowing offloads as much, or ignoring the fact that constant kicking helps rounded opposition more than your own team if you cannot execute)
 
Luckily we have plenty of young talent coming through.
If you count Pollard back from injury that's Pollard/Bosch/Damian Willemse who all have the potential to be world class and who are all extremely different players (I like Rob du Preez as well but that might be Stormers bias).
 
Genia was pretty quiet considering the huge impact he had against the AB's.
He was playing off a garbage platform digging through mess as the Wallabies kept missing routine clean outs.

He had about the least enviable job in this one.
 
Yes I've made assumptions on the gameplan from the coach's side but my reasoning is simple enough to understand, we know EJ is a finnicky 10, and that his recent run of form has a lot to do with the Lions and their style of running the ball etc. When the idea to focus on tactical kicking against Aus was proposed, surely they should've realised EJ might not be ready to sit back in the pocket and run the game with his boot after his few shakey performances, at least not as well as how he has been playing when the boks were a bit more direct on attack and retaining ball.

My point is, they could've added in someone in the backline to aid him with the tactical game, or they could've played a 10 more suited to tactical rugby otherwise they could've considered just playing the way they played him against the French or the Argentinians. It seems to me they chose the latter option in the second half to a degree, once they realised EJ could not live up to the task and opportunity arose for line breaks at the base etc.

I said he had a good game defensively and with ball in hand, he was woeful with the boot and I think it's hilarious he was playing a tactical game on top of his bad form, he could've won us the game had he not missed posts and touch but, I think we also would've won the game despite his errors if we played with some ball in hand from the start, it's a tough one because imo we had no viable 10 to replace him coming into this game (looking back AC wouldn't have been justified dropping EJ or playing Pollard so soon, but then again I assumed a ball in hand approach was the order of the day).

My question to you @TRF_heineken is if not Elton than who? For both this game and the next? and do you think he can execute a territorial/tactical game? We have to play NZ next week and I reckon if EJ plays this same style of rugga, with the same gameplan, we will have damaged our chances before the whistle blows like this game, perhaps not, but if the coaching staff insist on a constant territorial/tactical kicking game against the ABs, imo, Elton is not the man for the job, but who is then?

I'm saying if Elton plays against the Kiwis it should be where he is stronger, they can still play him if they give the tactical job to someone more accurate with the boot. Criticizing Elton for his bad kicking and then expect him to change to a "territorial/tactical" flyhalf for the ABs seems like madness to me, I don't have faith he will be able to handle a Kiwi aerial onslaught if he has a tactical directive hanging over his head, and it'll only be worse if our back 3 don't shape up

Perhaps it's simply that you guys didn't see this game as a failed attempt to play a territory/tactical kicking game in which case it makes a lot of sense that you're focusing on Elton's mistakes rather than a failure of game plan which is fair enough but I think the evidence speaks for itself.

I just fear we will get sucked back into this idea that you can't run your own ball against the top teams and that we're going to forget the work everyone is putting into developing a solid ball in hand game. I don't think it too absurd to question whether the coach had a lapse of faith, considering how it has hurt the boks in the past (choosing "experienced" players that are not on form or not allowing offloads as much, or ignoring the fact that constant kicking helps rounded opposition more than your own team if you cannot execute)

Well, we had Pollard on the bench and didn't use him. Which on one way of looking at it is understandable if it's a close game, but on the other hand, the question would be would he have changed the game for us?

The thing is that we had to revert to playing a bit deeper than normal, because of Australia's rush defence. But the way in which Elton executed when recieving the ball, is what was worrying me. We never once tried the little chip over their heads for Serfontein or Kriel to chase, yet, we did that very well against France.

We didn't use the up-and-under tactics, because our guys are not that good in the air as we used to be with JPP and Habana on the wings. Skosan and Rhule is not that good under the high ball. But it's a bit more complex than that. One thing that we have focused on this year is discipline, and not getting yellow cards. So limiting the contests in the air, prevents us from having a guy in the bin.

Again, I don't think we can blame AC for EJ's execution. The ball came off his boot. If he can't kick into space, or find touch, then don't do it, do something else. Call an audible FFS!
 
56'- METRES MADE ON ATTACK
Australia 449m
South Africa 196m

I think this stat illustrates both our points decently. If memory serves we ended the first half with closer to 80-100m made on attack and Aus were on about 330-350m. Beale/Foley/Folau were kicking just as much as Jaintjies and Coetzee. Elton could not execute the territorial game effectively and when we were more direct in the second half we effectively doubled our attacking metres made in 16min. Now I'm not saying we would've won strictly speaking, but with Elton not being able to execute it took a lot of opportunity away from the rest of the team, if we used Elton off 9 to distribute rather than in the pocket to kick from the stary we could've put the Aussies under a lot more pressure and made those metres ourselves rather than hoping for the boot to do the work and we could've used Coetzee to punt it down the field when in danger.

It seems to me that there was a lack of faith in our running approach followed by an obvious directive to try and turn the Aussies and keep them pinned, not so easy when you have Folau and Beale waiting in the outskirts, so why did it take so long to shape up and release the runners. If we try play tennis with the kiwis we will lose, this is why we need Combrinck or Pollard on centre or wing, so that our running game won't suffer when we need to be kicking and Elton can breathe a little.

I'm starting to sound like a broken record so the last I will say is that AC better be ready to experiment with the WHOLE backline come the EOYT, I don't see EJ being dropped until then, but I have hope he will be allowed to play to his own strengths once again
 

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